Why do you HAVE to do double-posting? Different sites have different users and a different focus. And freedom of choice is a great thing about the internet. Typophile is probably the largest typography board on the internet, but it's a private endeavor with no “official” status. There is nothing wrong with having alternatives.

I had always assumed that typophile was a site for people working with and interested in type. There are more people professionally involved with type who are not type designers than who are. Then there are those, whatever their profession, with a general interest in type.

So far, at least from the people who post and the categories available, TypeDrawers, is primarily aimed at type designers. Typography for example, has only History and Education as subcategories. Nothing there for users, generally -- except, maybe, under "business" as as potential customers?

Sort of implicit in your post --hopefully unintended -- is that the non-designers who frequent typophile should go away.

Ralf, you certainly have a point. But it's also not very efficient, because -unless you just want a social fix- you basically do have to post both places, and read both places. Also, I personally believe in freedom from choice too! :-)

Not everything on Typophile belongs on TypeDrawers, but I think everything on TypeDrawers does belong on Typophile... Which means it could have been some sort of sub-forum, at least in theory. But that wasn't meant to be, for a number of reasons.

Also, I value the mingling of makers and users that Charles mentions. I guess what some makers mind though is being distracted by the "noise" that non-practitioners can cause. On TypeDrawers, even when a post by a maker isn't "tight" enough, sparks fly.

In the end, some people are not open to changing their attitudes - they just want to get better/faster at what they do, and they don't want ideological confrontation to impede that. For others, things like this
http://typophile.com/node/101331
are the best thing on the planet.

BTW, in case not everybody knows this: I (along with at least one other person, but probably more) am not allowed to participate on TypeDrawers. One of the triggers was that I confronted the friend and former teacher of its owner on Typophile, when this person started "digitally vandalizing" Typophile, and randomly abusing members in the harshest manner. I felt it was my duty to try to stop that; I wish others weren't so detached. What's quite ironic BTW is that this person has been flagged a Troll six times on TypeDrawers, and I'm not even there! :-/ Looking for scapegoats is for weaklings.

To me TypeDrawers does fill a role, one that sadly seems necessary. However I don't respect its genesis (as others on TypeDrawers itself have actually opined) and I don't have faith in its owner on a number of levels. But none of that makes TypeDrawers pointless.

Typophile is .... a private endeavor with no “official” status.

This part I don't get. Is TypeDrawers any different? In fact isn't it more private?

hhp

I think James's TypeDrawers is to be applauded ...I know first hand how hard it is to develop and maintain an online community. He's obviously feeling his way through ...take for instance his March 9th Real Name issue. Where was that insight when he first started to invite Typophiles???

But hey. I learn from most everybody. Although his forum doesn't allow the entire Typophile community to post up what they think is great about type and letter shapes in general, I still think it's a useful resource.

LOL, I wonder how many TypeDrawer members look to their post's emoticons as a means of their own acceptance.

+1 :) :( ;) -1 -1 -1

n.

I joined Typedrawers only recently, when there seemed a general lull in anything of any interest on Typophile and massive spam problems. That in itself, I think, explains part of the reason why Typedrawers exists: people who for various reasons were frustrated with Typophile wanted a different place with a different structure.

So far, I'm pretty happy with Typedrawers but it hasn't yet reached anywhere near the quality of Typophile at its best, but then neither has Typophile recently. I appreciate the focus on professional type design over there, and the absence of 'Can anyone tell me what this font is?', and I do think both forums are different and necessary. There will be times when the same topic -- the Canberra competition, for instance -- gets aired in both place, but I suspect this will happen less often than one might think, and it might be interesting to see the ways in which the actual discussions differ.

I think Hrant should be allowed to join TypeDrawers. It would be interesting to see how fast his Troll credits would rise. I'm actually surprised I only have 6. I just can't seem to piss 'em off like I used to.

However the value of your contributions has remained quite constant.

hhp

Good to hear you are a fan!

[to follow]

Sort of implicit in your post --hopefully unintended -- is that the non-designers who frequent typophile should go away.

Absolutely not, I think people are free to go where they wish. I'm not troubled by the type of people on either forums.

Hrant, I've joined your club (momentarily!) I was banned for a short period of time because an Admin thought I was a troll…

("offending" threads: one and two)

Well, I do spot a troll on that first one! :-)

hhp

I seemed to have been kicked off typedrawers for a while too. I signed up again and they let me back in. Perhaps no one can believe that an actual person would do TrueType hinting.

As it says in the READ THIS FIRST: "The moderators know who the real experts are."

James Puckett (as far as I can tell the one and only moderator) has been in the field for about 4 years, and he knows exactly who knows what.

hhp

Experts? That leaves me out.

Such is life...

BTW there seem to be threads on TypeDrawers that are invitation-only (I mean even for registered users) with apparently no mechanism to request an invitation... Can you say Old Boys Club?

hhp

I don't speak for either forum, but only for myself. And I mall ears. What's up with coming from outerspace and thinking that your opinion of the bifurcation of any online community should matter?

Maybe it sounds harsh, but one of the things that's clear in onlinedness of the elderly, when you hear the same ?s over and over and over: Don't you have search tools out there? And how long does it take for our posts to reach you?

How can you search for something you don't know exists? People do browse.

BTW doesn't everybody's opinion matter more than zero?

hhp

The most worrying thing about Typeboard is that it's an autocracy masquerading as a meritocracy.

From the site's Read This First page: Moderators are exempt from the rules. That's glaringly evident when you consider that despite the fact that ad hominem attacks are explicitly not allowed, they are happily tolerated when the subject is , say, Hrant. The whiff of hypocrisy is all over it.

Puckett's personal friends are also exempt from the rules sometimes. Only two of Montalbano's six Troll flags are visible; this is because the first four were quietly removed, but when the recording of Troll flags became an explicit issue (partially because he got two more, partially because he complained about not being able to mark any Troll flags himself, but possibly also because I brought up the issue here*) the number was -again quietly- reinstated.

* http://www.typophile.com/node/52576#comment-545229

None of this makes TypeDrawers useless, but cronyism does make it markedly less useful, because some people have principles concerning what kind of people they associate with, principles that over-ride any benefit they might draw from participating. To be fair, there are also people who participate because they're vying -or at least hoping- for improvement. That actually describes my own participation on Typophile: loyalty makes me want to weather spam attacks, lack of ethics in the ID forum, and personal attacks. I would say this sort of "family loyalty" is somewhat lacking among creative people in general (partly because of difficulty handling criticism) and I feel this is strongly reflected in the genesis of TypeDrawers.

hhp

Well, I am running a online-forum for over 12 years now and I can tell you from experience (like anyone else who runs a larger online discussion board) that a successful forum just needs to be an autocracy. Someone is paying for that board and maybe is putting in hundreds of hours of work every year to make it flourish. That someone needs to protect this work, even if that means deleting posts, banning members and so. Thousands of online boards work this way since the 1990s.

I am convinced, that the demise of the reputation of Typophile over the last years was specifically caused by the fact, that no one here set and executed clear rules.
And this eventually lead to the creation of alternatives. So what? If you don't like the way those boards are run, don't use them. Move on. At best: don't even read the public forums there. Continue to use Typophile or any other board.

But do the users of this »house« really need to peak over the neighbor’s fence and complain about every step the people there are doing? That seems a bit childish. Especially since many users of TypeDrawers continue to be active here. It's just two boards. No one is at war. No one is fighting about profits or the most users. It's just people interested in typography and type design who like to exchange their thoughts. Live and let live.

[…] when the recording of Troll flags became an explicit issue (partially because he got two more, partially because he complained about not being able to mark any Troll flags himself, but possibly also because I brought up the issue here*) the number was -again quietly- reinstated.

This is not true. You can mark comments as “troll”, but the number in your profile does not go down when those comments get deleted. Two of James’ troll-flags are by me – and he returned the favour – but his comments where so inappropriate and personal attacking that I asked the forum/moderator/Puckett to delete them alltogether. This is why four of the six are not visible anymore, neither are my two which were deleted with the same part of the thread, but they are still on the profile counter, though not influenced or “reinstated” by the moderator.

Ralf, I'm actually a monarchist - I don't believe in Democracy. But the King/Queen must be honorable. So I agree that there has not been enough moderator activity on Typophile; however an imbalanced application of rules has its own problems. And your "live and let live" doesn't really mesh with any of that.

And there's nothing childish about worrying about the state of public discourse on type design; Typophile and TypeDrawers are both part of that, together (along with many other things). It's all related. And if you can't see the various levels of confrontation (maybe not a war, but certainly a network of battles) I don't know what to say.

Indra, I can assure you that Montalbano's Troll count went down from two to zero; that's when I wrote my comment on that thread I mentioned; then it jumped to six after your two. So I actually missed what happened to the two in between, and I might be making an incorrect -if safe- assumption on those. But qualitatively two is still infinitely more than zero. BTW the point isn't to nitpick - the point is that the person who was a catalyst of the birth of TypeDrawers was himself a big part of the problem on Typophile; sadly some people prefer to demonize a single individual. And actually this person has been anti-online_fora at least since I first started, in 1998. Not everybody is fit for every kind of social interaction, and living with something one considers a necessary evil for too many years eventually explodes.

Also, marking somebody a Troll merely in retaliation should not be tolerated.

hhp

Why would anyone mark a post they don't like as a "troll." So you don't like it, get over it. Hrant seems like an honorable, honest, stand up guy, and I find that to be very annoying. Every time he goes off on yet another rant about No Mod clauses and giving back to the community, I want to scream. It doesn't mean I think he or anyone else should get demerits for their thoughts.

But, let me get this straight, at typedrawer, regular forum users get to set demerits? Are these reviewed by a moderator? And, each user can retaliate by setting demerits for his or her critic? That makes sense.

So, can anyone set their own restricted invitation only post?

Thanks for the kind words.

But does it makes sense for a moderator to allow a retaliatory Troll (or any negative) flag? I think those should be based on content.

hhp

@hrant Either you are poking fun at me or my sarcasm needs polishing. No, it makes no sense at all. Any such system should be reviewed by a Moderator.

You said some nice things. Thank you. That's all. And I don't mind making people angry sometimes as long as I'm also making them think sometimes. I really hate cocktail parties.

hhp

I meant about the issue of a demerit system. No Mod review and trolls in retaliation are a Bad idea.

I don't mind making people angry sometimes as long as I'm also making them think sometimes.

Have you considered that what makes people angry is this, which looks very much like arrogance?

In the threads in which you make people angry -- by questioning their motivation or characterising them as blinkered or hidebound when their thinking disagrees with yours -- do you see any evidence that this results in thinking? It seems to me always to spell the end of discussion and, increasingly, devolution into name calling.

It seems to me that there are a wide areas of interaction between the polite banalities of a 'cocktail party' and people spitting at each other. I don't consider you always culpable, Hrant, in individual situations, but over the years you've built up massive credit in the animosity account which puts a lot of people on a hair trigger. If you know that you bring out the worst in people, and that they in turn bring out the worst in you, shouldn't you mind making people angry?

John, that post is so 2005. As some people have noted, I don't anger people the way I used to. The relatively recent incident with the Jameses frankly I see not as my failure, but a failure of others, who didn't bother coming to Typophile's defense. Of course that's just my view, but it remains that my stance was not an act of aggression or even self-defense, but an act of defending a community I value.

But since the past isn't irrelevant, I'll try to address your major points.

You can't predict people's reactions. Or at least I can't. For example I can't figure out how what I wrote above could be considered "arrogant". It's not that I think angering people is OK, it's that it's often an unavoidable pothole on a worthwhile path - it comes with the territory of making people think (which does not mean those two things always coincide). At least where I come from (which I don't necessarily mean geographically or ethnically). Remember, we're from different -personal- cultures; your "civilized" is often my "deceptive".

If you know that you bring out the worst in people

I don't see it like that. I bring out -unwittingly- what's inside, good or bad (including from myself). And/but we can then deal with it. To me the alternative is essentially a cocktail party.

I believe the key to fruitful discourse is always to focus on the content, not the style. Which, of course, is why I personally prefer text fonts to display fonts. :-)

hhp

As someone who literally just signed up just over two hours ago, TyperDrawer seems quite flawed with new users. I posted a topic about an issue with Webtype and how it seems they do not protect their product. David messaged me and told me that...well actually, read the post and then take a look at what he said.

Post: http://typedrawers.com/discussion/296/is-webtype-aware
David's message: removed

The back-story of why I posted the discussion:

I found that you can easily download Webtype's entire library for free. I tweeted them to make it aware (without compromising how it can be done) without any reaction or reply. Could I have emailed them? Sure but it isn't my responsibility. Therefore, it seemed that a) they don't care or b) they are aware of the issue and didn't want to respond in case others read through their tweets. Even then I would have at least emailed the person that found a loophole in my business. I was looking for discussion on the topic of why a distributor wouldn't use the basic methods of protecting their content.

So, in my opinion, it appears they heavily control what people can and cannot say. Like you're walking on eggshells to make sure you don't say/do anything that could result in a negative consequence. Seems quite limiting and overboard. Then again, China's method might work for some.

Chris, I'm mostly with you (although I will note that it's a weekend, and Easter weekend) but it's not OK to post a private message in public (unless of course you already got David's permission).

Anyway I think the Webtype issue deserves (and needs) to be a separate thread.

hhp

2005, Hrant? I was thinking of your fairly regular spitting contests with Michael, including some within the last ten days. As I wrote, I do not consider you always culpable, but given how you know these things will go I'm disappointed that you don't find a way to avoid them. Obviously, I would say the same to Michael.

I agree entirely that the key to fruitful discourse is to focus on the content, but that is precisely why I get frustrated when you start speculating as to people's motivation and psychology instead of either engaging with the content of their ideas or acknowledging a disagreement in good faith. When you write 'I bring out -unwittingly- what's inside, good or bad', that looks to me like more of the same.

hrant,

Forgive me for posting that (which I removed). I just found it very disrespectful what was said. As for the Webtype issue, I think I'll have a private conversation with them by email instead of dragging this out.

Chris, you're right it was very disrespectful and very bold of him to say so. Has he tried to intimidate you over here?

Sorry I clicked on the link ...and no I didn't take a screen shot of it ...honest.

n.

I get frustrated when you start speculating as to people's motivation and psychology

Although I maintain that there is no separating what people state from where they're coming from, I actually haven't done that sort of thing much at all lately.

Michael I think is a special case. For example when you use "chirography" it's no problem, but when I use it he thinks I'm taunting him. And if you look carefully you'll see that he's developed a nasty habit of stalking me, and I only offer token resistance, lest total silence is misconstrued. And I'm careful to totally avoid threads like this: http://typophile.com/node/101770

Chris: I agree it was a bit domineering. BTW private conversations certainly aren't pointless, but there's also nothing like a public debacle to get a company (and others paying attention) to do the right thing, if a private approach fails.

Remember, everybody strikes a different balance between business and culture.

hhp

Haha. I've never really had issues with anyone here except Nick. And those issues were merely Nick being mildly antagonistic.

It's slightly disturbing that this topic has more responses than any particular topic about type. I suppose people are attracted to the drama of politics?
When I need an answer about, say, vertical metrics, or problems with a FL python script, I just go to wherever I think I might get the best answer.

Ironic. A thread that started about “Why TypeDrawers?” has spiraled downwards into all but name-calling. Really?

That was always going to become what this thread is about.
And the fact that it’s happening here explains why Typedrawers exists—for type, not meta-discussion.

If you have something to say to Webtype then contact them directly. Stop trying to create Internet drama around yourself.

Is a bit antagonistic I agree.

There even seems to be a discussion about Hrant over there...

I just go to wherever I think I might get the best answer.

But is the point only to get an answer for yourself? Sure that's the primary motivation, but it's very nice to also help create a "library" of answers/discussions for anybody to conveniently use. And one library is more efficient than two.

Chris (Dean), I'm actually not seeing a lot of name-calling, just frank criticism. That said -as a moderator- I think you should feel free to censure/censor anything.

Nick, to me such "existential" discussions cannot be separated from the cultural future of type; they can only be irrelevant to making more money (and only in the short term). And money isn't everything to anybody. You can tell because even on TypeDrawers such discussions might be truncated, but they can't be entirely avoided.

Wei, that quote is quite disturbing; so is the closing of that thread. But I'll be nice and not air my speculations. I do hope that -if Chris (Burton) cannot resolve the issue in private- he does air it on Typophile, where it's safe.

BTW Ralf ("rhe"), why are you so upset as to obfuscate your profile info?

hhp

removed

it's very nice to also help create a "library" of answers/discussions for anybody to conveniently use. And one library is more efficient than two.

Surely you have to concede that, with search functions broken, it has been years since Typophile has been such an efficient library.

...and speaking of safety, don't ever forget that this site is just not safe for the vast majority of the type industry, for whom the endless anarchical and idle speculations, as well as topical hijacks, personal and business attacks, are unacceptable company, much less worthy of comment.

"And one library is more efficient than two."

But since there are zero "libraries", a half dozen type forums, and fifty other major sites related to type, the statement fails to even perch on speculation's searching shoulder.

It should also not be forgotten that these are the closing years of just the first generation of online forums. Finding a whole industry of perfectly self-moderating contributors who still stimulate each other, may take generations and a 1,000 forums. Meanwhile, thanks to Jared and Punchcut for everything they've done so far, none of this could have happened otherwise.

Google searching of Typophile was blocked for a few months (apparently due to a spam "lock-down" of sorts) but it's been up again for a few months now. I can find things pretty easily these days. You might say something like TypeDrawers can be searched via Google too, but quite often people look for something they know -or strongly suspect- is on Typophile (remember that it's by far the biggest repository, even if it's chaotic) they just need to locate it. So I put "site:typophile.com" in Google to narrow things down, and I'm set. Frankly it's not a disaster having multiple fora, but when it comes to the "library" concept it's not ideal either.

David, I agree that Typophile is much more dangerous for business than something like TypeDrawers (and I alluded to that above). But maybe that's why Typophile seems better for cultural progress. That's not everybody's cup of tea, but nobody should think it should be nobody's.

Should Typophile evolve? I love evolution a great deal, but there's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater. It's completely possible to "re-configure" all the built-up material and the -legitimate- membership. And is it crazy to suggest that the internal search can be fixed? Whether Punchcut is willing to do any of that is another matter. But if they're not, they just might be gracious enough to pass the baton.

Most of all, I have zero faith in something like Twitter leading to any kind of progress. Without reading a great deal (and writing a good deal) all one can achieve is a deeper trench. What I do have faith in is loyalty, resilience, patience and open discourse.

hhp

Ah, glad to see at least googling works again. It had been down for so long I had given up on it.

Not surprisingly, Chris's Webtype thread on TypeDrawers just went poof. It was bad for business. Hey, there's no denying that business is very important. It's just better not to pretend. And thankfully Typophile is here to be our WikiLeaks.

hhp

"It's just better not to pretend"

Strongly agree, get on with it then. These escalating delusions of the concept of a library vs what one finds through the search of a place, pretends that what one finds via searching is something that it is not. The delusion that a forum like this benefits from the verbal violence by making it less hospitable to business via it being a source of hidden secrets, that's pretend too.

But hey, its Forum Hrantus now. So, in a way, I'm hoping that typedrawers develops a broader arc of participants through peace, even if that happens to also mean having participation from the successful and humble who just can't stand it here.

Why is it impossible for you to accept that people can have different objectives in life, and we each contribute things that makes type design not merely a financial rat race? Are the people who invite me to speak at conferences and pay me to consult on their non-Latin designs retarded? Should I get on your case that you prefer starting threads about conferencing software instead of sharing your insights in threads like this?:
http://typophile.com/node/101331

I don't believe Typophile would have been valuable to as many people in as many ways all these years if it were run the way you seem to want (which is not at all to say that it's perfect). It would have been more valuable to you, but pardon the world for not being at your service. BTW, Typophile has been like this for many years now; why did it take so long for a "business-friendly" forum like TypeDrawers to be launched -by a beginner in the field no less- and in the "closing years of just the first generation of online forums"? Maybe because sharing insights isn't exactly a good business move... Could you reveal exactly how you have helped people with their businesses on TypeDrawers? Note: I'm not saying you must do so. Or is TypeDrawers really just a "social fix" tool? To some people Typophile is -at least partly- that. Which is OK, as long as we don't pretend.

Most of all, I don't think making me the scapegoat just because I don't share your goals in life is honorable or productive.

hhp

Not surprisingly, Chris's Webtype thread on TypeDrawers just went poof.

I was banned.

Do you know on what grounds specifically?

hhp

Do you know on what grounds specifically?

I wasn't given a reason. However, right before, I was told that I was being a "dick" and "seeking attention". I then went to go back on TypeDrawer after, I believe, you said that my thread was gone and found out my permission to access my account was denied.

What "official status" is needed more than keeping this resource up, through thick and thin, for 13 years? Private, sure, but Typophile is free for everyone and has always encouraged the community to get involved and help shape things. If anything, Typophile is a more accurate representation of the color of the type community than any other resource. Professionals, students, graphic designers, trolls, hobbyists, etc.

In the early years, we had a dedicated "Uppercase" board for professional type designers, but eventually phased it out after it simply didn't get the activity we had hoped. Should we start it up again? What would be the criteria for getting beyond the velvet rope?

"What would be the criteria for getting beyond the velvet rope?"
A Letter Sweater?

A Letter Sweater?

I for one would love a Typophile letter sweater, specifically a non-suicidal uc /K.

That sparks an idea. I’m going to start a separate thread — Typophile merchandise?

Chris (Burton), you were bad for business. :-/ But it still seems pretty extreme. Maybe he thinks you betrayed the Old Boys by talking about it on Typophile. Maybe he was pressured. Without an explanation all somebody can do is speculate, which is no good for anybody. And unless you did something really wrong that you haven't revealed, I have to say that anybody over there with half a spine should complain. Otherwise fear of capricious censorship will stifle meaningful discourse.

Jared, people are reactionary. The reason the Uppercase forum didn't succeed was probably that there was nothing very wrong with the rest of Typophile. I don't think things were less confrontational back then (I for one was probably more confrontational) so maybe the more recent combination of mountains of font IDs (with its undercurrent of piracy and plagiarism) and gobs of spam changed things. And I have to frankly agree with those who say that Punchcut was too hands-off for too long. I hope it's not too little, too late now.

Would it be a good idea to restart a more restrictive section of Typophile? Ironically, now that the ID section is less unethical (for which I can immodestly take partial credit) and the spam seems 99% under control, maybe it's again not needed. :-/ But two fruitful distinctions between an exclusive section and the rest might be:
- More hands-on moderation, dampening confrontations. Since the exclusive section would be less active (see below) that would be more doable.
- Total ban on IDing.

So, what would the exclusivity criteria be? My suggestion: $1 a year subscription. Some other paths to exclusivity would lead to something like TypeDrawers. Besides the fact that we already have one of those, I personally don't value that sort of environment -with the way that Chris Burton was treated for example- and I think it's too culturally limiting.

But there's also the elephant in the room that a forum like this can't be as relevant as it was a few years ago. People have -sadly- moved to shallow expression channels like Twitter, from being totally public (opening themselves up to challenges) to being semi-public and conversing with people they mostly agree with. Technological improvements have facilitated the manifestation of that human weakness. Typophile doesn't have to play along with that, even if it means being less active. Quantity does not replace quality - we do however need an adjustment in quality.

hhp

hrant,

I literally did nothing that I haven't disclosed already. I had no ulterior motives nor was I "seeking attention". There really wasn't anything to hide. What happened, happened.

Updated:

I think everyone can agree that the Type IDing is out of control as new users don't read the guidelines (many don't). I also think Typophile could condense some of the categories which I have expressed to Jared. Honestly, do we really need all those boards?

Different people browse Typophile differently. Because my own ideal habits are poorly supported by the current mechanism I have to assume it's inefficient for many others as well. So the large number of boards is moot to me personally; it could certainly be relevant to other people, or become relevant to [people like] me if the user interface changes.

If there were a way to entirely exclude the ID section during browsing (which actually used to be possible) that would help certain kinds of users. Watching the activity on the ID section versus the rest of Typophile you realize that there is virtually zero interaction: people who use the ID section never go anywhere else, and people who spend time actually discussing type almost never set foot in the ID section. It's not a healthy state of affairs, not least because there is no such demarcation in terms of user interface.

Most of all, things wax and wane. If things are handled correctly Typophile can start waxing again, even if it has to change. But you will never please everybody, certainly not people who see public discussion as a venting mechanism or some sort of necessary evil. Just because somebody's type design skills are highly respectable does not mean they are psychologically fit for discourse. Remember that any creative person has an over-sensitive artist in him, so has trouble handling criticism. Some of those who don't value what Typophile is or can be wisely and kindly simply stay away; sadly however there are some who can't stand not watching, but can't or don't want to participate much, so they want to shut people up. It makes no sense to deride people who spend a lot of time disagreeing with you; make your decision of how seriously you want to defend your views in public, and stop whining.

Also, more of us need to be more pro-active, more loyal. When somebody who has struck down public discussion for over a decade starts drunkenly vandalizing the place and randomly abusing members, I shouldn't be the only person putting up resistance, and then be singled out for confronting people. Typophile might be "virtual", but it is still a community; it needs defending. Watching it devolve is very short-sighted, and that attitude can't sustain any community for any meaningful length of time.

hhp

“Just because somebody's type design skills are highly respectable does not mean they are psychologically fit for discourse.”
~ Papazian, H. (2013).

That made me chuckle. I’ll most likely use that quote in a future presentation. Still chuckling. Thanks. Today was a long day.

Jared: "Should we start it up again? What would be the criteria for getting beyond the velvet rope?"

This first question, what have you to got to lose?

The second, I hope if someone gives you the advice to open a new area that has more moderators, you judge the suggestion closely. Hilariously, that's the only alternative to "this", the definition of which I'll get into in a minute.

It's hard to imagine why a board for professionals would need more moderation than an unprofessional board. I mean, non-self moderation means its gone too far already 100% of the time. So if that's the proposal, and it's the only option, then there are probably some other issues, bringing us to this.

For some people, its all connected... Ask one person a question get another one charging you with board slaughter, five counts of board neglect, squelching conversation and more! because as you see, it's all connected. Everything they ever said or done is in there ...buzzzzzijng around.

Others compartmentalize not because they are boring or withholding, but for the sake of productive discourse, and to spend time at mouse, with their faces. Little box here, little box there, boxes for everything.

There is a video on the subject here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BxckAMaTDc

So it's your baby! You have models with strong moderation and little or none. You also have:

"Top typophiles in the last 10 days:
Ryuk: 99
defiantone: 59
Chris Dean: 53
HVB: 39
..."

Is that right? I think there might be a bug in the program.

Cheers!

Swiss cheese.

- "What have you got to lose?" Time? Even more respect?

- What is a "professional" type designer? Somebody who makes more than a certain amount of money in type design? How much? Or is it somebody who makes money only through type design? So Thomas for example would be excluded?

- Do you believe making more money is the only benchmark? And if you do, do you look down on people who don't agree with that?

- Why should Typophile be only for professional type designers? Is conversing with people like Charles bad for professional type designers? Or do you mean professional in anything? Any one thing? Do you really want to try to nail all those things down, and then try to prove that your view of an ideal Typophile is good for different kinds of people? You should know that Jared is actually even more inclusive than I am. Did you miss the "accurate representation of the color of the type community"?

- Compartmentalize things all you want. But when you try to compartmentalize people by expecting them to behave to your benefit, it backfires.

- Top Typophiles in the past ten days? Why exclude John Hudson just below HVB? And are you counting posts, or volume? When you count volume, not just number of posts, John is probably near the very top all the time. What you should note instead is that three of those top four are ID people. So my missing number is worth insinuating against, but the ID deluge is not?

- What's worse: Hiding the posting count of a very active person because some people psychologically can't handle it and they'll use a number as a weapon to strike you down and justify their weak-minded behavior? Or quietly wiping away somebody whose only "mistake" was to claim that a "big daddy" webfont provider had left a back door open (without even revealing the door)?

- Moderation isn't just about degrees, but spirit. You can have a strict but just king, or a strict and socially clueless, erratic despot who calls people "dick".

The bug in the program is people who think there's only one good way to live and people who want to trick others into believing that so they can milk them better.

hhp

Lol, I was responding to Jared, Hrant, discussing an additional board on typophile, not strangling your precious place while you are asleep in your bed in full throttle midpost, or preventing your post volume or bird dogging, but thanks for your excellent bzbzbzbz bbbzzzzzb bzzzzb b zz.... points. (allllllll connnnecteddd:)

Then I asked, yes, why are Hrant Papazian's posts not being counted like every one else. Is that right? Did I miss a discussion here? ;)

Now for the gossip over the fence. No Hrant, I don't think either Mr. Burton being ejected form typedrawers, or your posts being uncounted are good things. Which is worse? I'd never ever speculate on that until I have all the facts. You know why? I didn't think so.

Feel free to send Jared a private email if you don't want anybody else to react. (Just like Chris Burton "should" have done, right?)

I told you my opinion of why my post count isn't being shown. What do you think? You can be afraid of speculation, but you can't make others fear it. BTW your speculation (I'll kindly not speculate about how you decide to make exceptions) concerning my posting habits is completely wrong. Furthermore, you clearly don't need to "speculate" as to what Jared is thinking in order to have an opinion on which of those two things is worse. And if the "facts" are so important for you to form an opinion, why not ask?

Also, an additional/restricted board would still be part of Typophile. Just like the ID board, which is why it casts a bad light on the whole. And if you really believe that the additional/restricted board would feel not part of Typophile, why bother when we already have TypeDrawers? In fact Typophile and TypeDrawers are more part of the same thing than not. The fence is a cozy illusion.

Most of all, don't assume I wouldn't be allowed into the additional/restricted board. Then what? Here's an idea: why not make TypeDrawers -where I will never show up- even more to your liking by taking an honorable stand against Chris Burton's ejection? Especially since you were involved. So please do get your "facts" from Jared and James instead of simply looking my way for somebody to scapegoat.

hhp

In answer to the OP, TypeDrawers provides a place where type drawers can discuss the things that type drawers discuss, without having a certain judgemental and moralizing voice dominate every conversation.

Nick, it doesn't make sense that I'm that much of a singularity. Note that I'm not the only one who's banned; there are at least four people now (but probably more, certainly many who won't know until they try). And do you not believe James Puckett when he states that my exclusion is only a side-benefit? If you think he's confused or lying, what should you feel/do?

Also, I'm sure you realize -and hopefully you can openly admit- that I don't try to get people to do what I consider the Right Thing as much these days. However I actually believe it's inappropriate forum behavior to suggest that expressing moral preferences has no place in the health of a community, because silence can lead to an erosion of community morals. So why would your type of view of proper behavior get priority over my type? And how is expressing morals worse than your first post of October 4 here?
http://typophile.com/node/96774?page=1

So for example, for people like David who think Chris Burton's ejection from TypeDrawers was not a good thing (and covering it up certainly can't make it better) is complaining about it good or bad? That is a moral stance. Communities naturally exhibit vectors of moral pressure - think of it as feedback to help everybody know how others feel, and thereby better predict future reactions, promoting overall harmony. Excluding that from a community puts it at greater risk, not lesser. It can never only be about content - that's inhuman. Or: the morals are content too.

Example: There was a regular in the ID section who had a massive library of pirated fonts and used software to identify them for people. He had no qualms about suggesting blatantly plagiarized fonts, and helping out people who admitted to pirating the fonts he would recommend, and the only reason he stopped IDing outright pirated fonts was that he was warned he'd get kicked off. Thanks to the concerted efforts of a few people who exerted moral pressure he seems to not come here any more. It took about 3 months I think, and now Typophile is slightly better for it. We are all moderators.

So let me ask this: Is font piracy morally wrong? If you see it happen on Typophile (which you occasionally would if you spent enough time in the ID section) should you complain?

hhp

Hrant: "Feel free to send Jared a private email if you don't want anybody else to react."

Oh, I don't mind if you react.

"The fence is a cozy illusion."

So why all the whining?

"Most of all, don't assume I wouldn't be allowed into the additional/restricted board."

Not at all, I was imagining you as the head moderator. The Typophile Shop can sell Typophile Flags, and you can wrap yourself in one of them and be the first in line to bestow justice and equity on all of the good Typophile people of the world.

"why not [...] tak[e] an honorable stand against Chris Burton's ejection? "

As i understand it, you want me to suggest Typedrawers allow people to post private messages without the authors permission, straight to the board. I will do so at the next bloodletting and eyeball tattooing session of the committee to screen the unwashed. Honorable stand taken, say no more.

"...looking my way for somebody to scapegoat."

Do not over-inflate. Otherwise, if I didn't answer, I don't know what you are talking about, but I read shades of Kafka mixed with a little tiny baby Milton, and a large dose of Muhammad Ali, (from the first Frazier fight).

I don't want to nitpick every logical fallacy and mischaracterization, so I'll just focus on the big ones.

Chris Burton did not post a private message to TypeDrawers. He posted a private message to Typophile, whereby I advised him that was not correct behavior, whereby he promptly removed it:
http://typophile.com/node/101666#comment-549059

What I think anybody who thinks something went wrong (your "I don't think Mr. Burton being ejected form typedrawers is a good thing") should do is complain, because not expressing moral preferences leads to immoral environments. But that's just me - somebody who values something that Typophile is and TypeDrawers isn't.

hhp

"In answer to the OP, TypeDrawers provides a place where type drawers can discuss the things that type drawers discuss, without having a certain judgemental and moralizing voice dominate every conversation."

I see.

Hrant,

Just wanted to thank you for the consistent moral support. Really do appreciate it.

David,

What we both know is that you initiated what happened. Within about 15 minutes of publishing that discussion, you automatically advised people to ignore me, as you stated. Why? What I wrote was an honest question regarding the easy possibility of pirating webfonts (especially since that format can be used on majority of platforms). "Why wouldn't WT use a simple method of encoding their syntax much like Typekit and other distributors?". To me that doesn't sound like I have an ulterior motive, that I'm seeking attention or being a "dick" as James put it. It was a simple question in which I honestly didn't understand why the webfonts weren't protected. Or more protected I should say as there seemed to be a minimal amount. Did I tweet WT about the issue? Absolutely. Did they contact me as a business should when it relies on other people/foundries to stay afloat? No. And why not, my email is easily accessible if you click the link in my bio? But please, don't take this to be my disliking of WT as I have/still do recommend them. It was more about foundries/individuals that work hard producing these fonts and WT either, not taking necessary procedures to keep them from being pirated, not knowing about the issue or even the possibility that they figured what they had in place was enough to work. I was looking out for people like you which is why I'm shocked to have received that type of reaction. Even if you disagreed with my discussion, you've mentioned that you didn't agree with me being banned, so why didn't you raise the issue with James? Or even simply apologize when I told you my intentions? I don't have animosity towards you or anyone over there. The way it was handled I think was a bit overboard especially as someone that's new in the type community.

"Why wouldn't WT use a simple method of encoding their syntax much like Typekit and other distributors?"

Chris, on the technical/security aspect:
I think that encoding font files as base64 strings into the CSS files, does not make them more secure, only more "obscure" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity ) but people already know how to decode those strings. It was never a secret since encoding/decoding files into the css its a common optimization practice (for example for encoding icons or image files to reduce HTTP requests). This is evident since there are already lots of 'tk-rips' floating around. And, in fact, they don't even need to decode those strings. Technically, developers can just grab the CSS files 'as is' and use it for other websites. The only thing stopping users from doing that are ethics and the license text included in the css files as a comment.

But more important, it creates a problem for the webfont provider and a PITA for the legit users/webmasters: As the font are stored in the individual CSS files of each website and not linked to the real font files on a server, each time you update hinting or fix problems in the fonts, you need to force all your users to "republish" their kits in order to see the upgrades. Instead, if you keep the files in the server instead of encoding them on CSS files, each time you upgrade the fonts on the server all users get the upgrade on the fly, automatically. No "republish your kits" action needed.

The best protection scheme for the foundries and easy of use for the webmasters, so far, is to keep the files on the server AND check for the HTTP_referrer before serving the fonts files. This way, people who look into the CSS files will see the links to the font files, but if people try to grab them: they can't (all they will get is a 403 Forbidden error) as the access to the files is denied to those having an incorrect HTTP_referrer header.

Of course, the HTTP_referrer can also be faked, but I think it's a bit more complex.
Saddly, there is not a better solution yet.

"Why wouldn't WT use a simple method of encoding their syntax much like Typekit and other distributors?"

Now that the technical side has been cleared.. maybe they have simply decided that the "encoding/republish" scheme is simply adding an unneeded extra layer of complexity for both, themselves as providers and their users as webmasters, that does not worth it, given the very low increase of security they may provide.

Lessee, the enemy of my enemy's enemy's enemy's ... enemy is ???
an enema?

Chris: Did I tweet WT about the issue? Absolutely.

So you stood on a rooftop and shouted in WebType's direction that their fonts were exposed and open to easy illicit downloading? I think David's suggestion on Type Drawers that it would have been preferable if you hand emailed them was entirely reasonable.

I agree with David that you should not have been banned from Type Drawers over this. In general, I'd prefer a democratically run forum to King James' sometimes heavy handed and arbitrary rule. But he pays the bills, and I'm not about to lecture him on how he should run it. I'm not yet sure how long I'll stick around Type Drawers.

I think that encoding font files as base64 strings into the CSS files, does not make them more secure, only more "obscure"

That's very true. But the benefit of encoding the syntax is that majority of people do not know how to decode it. And that's much better than being able to simply go to a site that is using the webfont you want and being able to download it to your machine for that person to pirate or even use it on their own site. That's how easy it is and that's what I was trying to bring to attention. With Typekit it takes much more knowledge and effort to do this and that's how it should be.

Oh and some have speculated that you can't install certain webfont formats, such as .woff and that just isn't true. It's actually sad how simple it is.

So you stood on a rooftop and shouted in WebType's direction that their fonts were exposed and open to easy illicit downloading? I think David's suggestion on Type Drawers that it would have been preferable if you hand emailed them was entirely reasonable.

I wouldn't say I stood on a rooftop and shouted to Webtype. I notified them that they had a vulnerability which I also emailed them about. Also, David wrote me a message before suggesting that I email them. But my discussion wasn't about notifying Webtype. It was about discussing why they didn't use a better method. Meaning, was there minimal solution enough compared to Typekit?

I agree with David that you should not have been banned from Type Drawers over this.

I believe hrant spoke up and stated that I shouldn't have been banned which, in return, David agreed.

That's why I recommend the "link to files/check HTTP_referrer before serving" method.
I guess that's the one FontDeck and Typoteque are using... but can't be sure.

That's why I recommend the "link to files/check HTTP_referrer before serving" method.

I'm going to have to read up on that. Thanks for mentioning it.

John, since Twitter requires one to be followed to convey what one wrote (barring a specific Google search, which however is generally hypothetical) it's not equivalent to shouting from a rooftop. That said I do agree that it should not have come before (or even concurrent to) a private email. HOWEVER, this does not excuse: the domineering reaction, which notably did not include a private email; the rabid barring of a member in good standing; and most of all the continuing total silence from all involved parties* rivaling the best that North Korea can muster.

* Pardon me for thinking that one party being forced to talk about it on Typophile isn't exactly a resolution.

When people who want to be on your side act poorly, you have to complain. If you can't get them to modify their behavior, you have to publicly distance yourself from them. This is how society works - don't shoot the messenger.

Sorry for moralizing, Nick - in toto that's part of the solution, not the problem.

hhp

Mr. Burton: "...you automatically advised people to ignore me, as you stated. Why?"

Lol. As I emailed to you, I told our Webtype support staff NOT to do Tech Support via Twitter, to ignore further tweets from you on the subject because I was in email conversation with you.

I didn't tell a whole board to ignore you as you write.

Mr. Burton: "...you didn't agree with me being banned, "

I do agree with you being banned. You posted a private message from me to you, without asking me. Why this is not yet clear, is a mystery.

Whatever you say your tweets or posts "were about" has been fluid. Overarching the issue of web font security is that possession does not mean ownership. If it did, hell I'd rent out every dwelling in NYC, move in tenants while owners are out, make a handsome profit.

As I emailed you, you tweeted to TypeKit why they do not provide a CSS solution where You, the User can "take the risk." Then, you turned around and tweeted that we didn't have enough security by providing a CSS solution. As someone that's new in the type community, maybe it's not that we're unknowing and ungrateful and you have found this to heroically try to mend it for us, but thanks.

Now, to the roof top analogy, nahhh, it' hopeless...

John Hudson: Lol, James is a bit heavy now, but I think James P. is learning moderation. Hrant, let's see... James, at great effort, publicly distanced himself from Hrant, "as society is supposed to work", according to Hrant. But Hrant is pursuing James to his new place, criticizing, and insulting James, and being proud of it.

You previously wrote that Chris Burton's ejection was not a good thing; that was the only glimmer of hope in all of this. Now it seems you class abruptly punishing people who challenge your interests (even though it's not out of malice) over simply clearly explaining your position (which BTW you are still deftly avoiding - vague references to "ownership" don't cut it). To me that's nothing to be proud of - and don't pretend I am alone on this.

Here's another insight: I've always been very civil to you, in spite of years of being attacked. This is because I see a lot of things in you that are good for type. But my disagreement with some of your views seems to be reason enough to persistently treat me with contempt. I am not useful to you, so I need to be silenced.

So the banning was a good move yet James is "a bit heavy now"? That sounds like apologism. You want distancing? Here's one: "I'm not yet sure how long I'll stick around Type Drawers." But you treat John caustically too.

hhp

Lol. As I emailed to you, I told our Webtype support staff NOT to do Tech Support via Twitter, to ignore further tweets from you on the subject because I was in email conversation with you.

You never emailed me, actually. If you're referring to the private messages, well, that's not at all what you said. Also, I tweeted Webtype about this issue long before I created that discussion, which again, was about why they didn't use simple encoding methods and was not about making an announcement on the forum. Why you would feel the need to tell Webtype support staff not to reply after they already ignored me long ago, makes no sense.

I didn't tell a whole board to ignore you as you write.

Weird because I remember you strictly wrote "forum" at the end where you stated you advised people to ignore me and nothing about Webtype. And by what you said in the message, I took that as administrators and moderators, not the "whole board", as you put it.

I do agree with you being banned. You posted a private message from me to you, without asking me. Why this is not yet clear, is a mystery.

bbg: "No Hrant, I don't think either Mr. Burton being ejected form typedrawers, or your posts being uncounted are good things."

The reason it is not clear is because you have contradicting opinions. Perhaps I shouldn't have posted that private correspondence so I apologize. Either way, it was immediately removed.

you tweeted to TypeKit why they do not provide a CSS solution where You, the User can "take the risk." Then, you turned around and tweeted that we didn't have enough security by providing a CSS solution.

Why would I be taking a risk? Typekit (and many others) encodes their @font-face syntax where the font location is masked. Making it much harder for the average person to be able to illegally download the font.

As I stated previously, I have no animosity towards you. Even with the additional antagonistic and rude comments in your last post which I'm not going to respond to.

"Perhaps I shouldn't have posted that private correspondence so I apologize."

Accepted. Sorry if I insulted you or deprived you of immediate support unrelated to your licensed use our products.

Good luck with your web design.

I think TypeDrawers might not be perfect but its exchanges are more professional and 'noise-free.'

The longevity of a thing is inversely proportional to its basis on negativity.
http://typedrawers.com/discussion/740/i-am-done-with-typedrawers

hhp

!

Read further, Hrant. Stephen Coles has stepped up to run the site.

Yes, good news. With Stephen's positivity it will have more longevity.

hhp

Example: the new "there are no pre-requisites for membership" is an Astronomical Unit better than the old "the moderators know who the real experts are".

hhp