The first (u&lc) feels close to Franticek Storm's Teuton.

Awesome. This font works perfect. Just in case if anyone else would like to download it (only the normal version). This can be done here for free.

Any idea what the second font could be like?

Try using the keyword “gaspipe” at font sites for the second…

Thanks for the tip. Found a font that looks good enough. It's called Oliver's Barney.

Phil, we don't like font piracy around here.

Nick: Jeff made an honest mistake helping Phil (a mistake I myself no longer take the risk of making) but why help him after he acquires -and points to- a pirated version of Teuton?

hhp

–

Did I fall into some trap? My apologies.

Quemadura made no mistake with his statement “The first (u&lc) feels close to Franticek Storm's Teuton”? Someone asked for an ID and he helped. This was done before PauloCoe (allegedly) referred to a site with pirated fonts.

However, that link is now 404. Does anyone know the URL so I can validate that the source is indeed violating copyright law? Pointing to cheep knockoffs is one thing, pointing to someone who is flat-out breaking the law, well that’s easy. Simply send the URL to the copyright holder.

Yes, like I said: an honest mistake. I do however consider it a mistake to provide such help to a "stranger". Because I suspect ~90% of font IDs lead to a font being pirated. And when the person admits to it (especially when he points to the source!) that's about as actionable as it gets. One warning. Second time, close the account. Anything less makes Typophile look like Mos Eisley.

It actually wouldn't be so bad if some of the people asking for IDs participated in actual discussions about fonts. But they almost never do; if you look at their pattern of behavior it's 95% hit-and-run. Even most of the long-term members who regularly provide type IDs* rarely do anything else here - it's like some dumb hobby. Helping people? Hey what about helping the place that's letting you help people not become some bottom-feeder** heaven...

* We even have one guy who sells a piece of software that helps you find free "alternatives"...

** http://typophile.com/node/99624

Don't get me wrong, I'm not some crusader out to stop piracy. Mostly this is about helping Typophile.
http://typophile.com/node/99675#comment-537961

Simply send the URL to the copyright holder.

And TypeSnitch.

And of course remove the reference here! Even if it's a broken link. Teuton is in fact on that pirate site.

hhp

Helping Typophile, Hrant?
You gotta be kidding.

We each try to make it what we think it needs to be. And some people fight to stop others ruining that.

So let me ask you: are you OK with people bragging about pirating fonts and pointing to sources?

hhp

So let me ask you: are you OK with people bragging about pirating fonts and pointing to sources?

No, of course not. And I never provide links to pirated fonts.
But, since this place is flatlining and the temp state seems to be permanent I see no point in driving people away from here by accusing them of theft without proof (http://typophile.com/node/99624).
You want to help Typophile? Get the people back that left for Typedrawers.

Glad to hear you don't condone it. But sometimes you're an -unwitting- accessory to it, and I'm hoping that doesn't feel good. And most of all, it would be useful if you -and many others- would jump in to complain when you see a really bad case. Not fighting for something makes it weaker. Feel free to be more tentative than me, but don't be afraid of driving the worst offenders away. You think I'm too aggressive - I think you're too passive.

> http://typophile.com/node/99624

What more proof do you need?! I have to say here that to me your silence there is in fact part of the problem I'm talking about. Certain people need to be driven away - or at least isolated from the parts of Typophile that actually value typeface design. You really think the best thing this place can be is a type ID swamp?

I don't think your perception of Typophile -and the evolution of general online participation*- is realistic. I still see more typographic value on Typophile than anywhere else. As for the people who left (in actual effect far fewer than you imply**) perhaps they weren't meant to be discussing things in the open. Maybe they want a place where everybody is friendly to them. That's what cocktail parties are for.

* So who's fault is Flickr's degradation? The ATypI group for this year's conference is a mere shadow of previous ones. Why?

** Hey, check this out:
http://typophile.com/node/99612#comment-538227

BTW have you actually been reading Typedrawers? Can you really claim adding those meager (and often passive-aggressive) conversations here would revive this place? Pure delusion. I won't let you use me as a scapegoat. Instead try to help by being pro-active.

hhp

Yeah, Hrant, you just keep on fighting until you’re the last man standing.

In an effort to deal with piracy, if anyone sees a thread (past, present, or future) with a link to a site that breaks copyright law, please email me.

typographer@gmail.com

BTW Jan, do you know what the Typedrawers people generally think of type IDs?...

hhp

At some point I’d like to compose a small piece of writing for people who continually ask for type IDs. Where it goes, I don’t know. I’m sure you'll agree with this one hrant. Something to the effect of:

“With the exception of people using software to identify fonts, you are asking older people who were in the field years before computers existed. The only way they learned how to play “name that font” was by rote learning. Sheer practice. Page after page, year after year. They never would have acquired this skill if they constantly asked others to do it for them. If you want to develop this skill, the only way is to practice. So buy a big-ass font book, and look at it every day with your morning coffee and evening pint. Remember — If you give a someone a fish, you feed them for a day; if you show someone how to catch fish, you feed them for a lifetime (Chinese proverb).

Addendum: I can easily scare away a first date by pointing to a font every 5 minutes and telling her what it is. Pub sign, drink menu, menu, coaster, poster, katsup bottle, table advertisement, bathroom doors, desert menu, taxi door… If I made it that far, I’m either getting into that cab, or going back into the pub alone to have a few more pints ;)

Nick: Jeff made an honest mistake helping Phil (a mistake I myself no longer take the risk of making) but why help him after he acquires -and points to- a pirated version of Teuton?

I don’t recall advising Paolo to search pirate sites for “gaspipe,” which is—after all—merely a style designator. Did I miss something?

He just strikes me as the sort of user that should be shunned.

hhp

First of all, I want to sincerely thank the several posters that have stood up and challenged the ugliness of Hrant the Bully in this thread.

Jeff - you did nothing wrong. You were - God forbid - helpful.

PaulCoe - as an artsit (per your profile) I'm sure it wouldn't bother you for someone to take your art without paying, right? Not right? Well then, why is it OK for you to take a commercial font without paying - and then offer it via a link for lots of other folks to steal?

Hrant the Bully - I do understand the underlying frustration inherent in your agenda here. As one of the original moderators of MyFonts' What The Font forum, I've been through several stages of that frustration. The first was angrily confronting posters who linked to illicit download sites for commercial fonts. Skipping through several stages in between (because you wouldn't understand) we arrive at two years ago, when there were more moderators, several of which (not I) were accosting the aforementioned posters of bad links with aggressive confrontation and ugliness - not unlike your own. After awhile, the moderators' official MyFonts contact (a great, easy-to-talk-to guy) asked those aggressive mods to tone it down. Why?

Well, the main point was that it made the forum a far less friendly place. That's a point, it seems, that you could care less about ... but are you hearing us that it does matter to some of us? Secondly (I was, at the time, amazed to hear this), MyFonts does not consider those renegade posters a threat at all! Those posters come to MyFonts with no intent of paying for a font - and no amount of berating will change that. Education might later on change their view (I verbosely tried that for a couple of interim years), but only for that single poster.

Therein lies the absurdity of your agenda here, Hrant the Bully: Your extremist approach accomplishes absolutely nothing toward your goal! The willfully defiant are more defiant and the clueless (the vast majority of those you berate) carry on in their cluelessness. Lack of awareness about fonts and the people who make them is one of the most arcane and negligible sins of this world. As such, it's one of the most forgivable. To make clueless transgressors the target of your bile is sad.

>>Yes, like I said: an honest mistake. I do however consider it a mistake to provide such help to a "stranger". Because I suspect ~90% of font IDs lead to a font being pirated.<<

You contradicted yourself there. According to you, Jeff made a mistake by providing help to a "stranger".

Suspicion and presupposition should guide our helpfulness? Ah ... no. I doubt anyone here would agree with you. That's the equivalent of guilty until proven innocent - which is exactly what you've been throwing around here lately.

>>It actually wouldn't be so bad if some of the people asking for IDs participated in actual discussions about fonts. But they almost never do; if you look at their pattern of behavior it's 95% hit-and-run. <<

WHAT??? Posters who have their font identified and don't stick around to discuss it??? You're kidding, right? Well, no - you aren't kidding. You actually expect every poster asking for help here to be a typophile (type lover). What planet do you live on, Hrant the Bully? Some posters actually take the stated purpose of this forum at face value -and not for anything else: "Need to know what font it is? Post it here."

>>Even most of the long-term members who regularly provide type IDs* rarely do anything else here - it's like some dumb hobby.<<

Like a bully, you've just insulted most of the helpful identifiers here - almost all with a pirating detestation near on par with your own. The difference is that we are realists and not unrealistic extremists with an unrealistic agenda like yourself.

Finally, I only can only best copy/paste Jan's simple post:
"Helping Typophile, Hrant?
You gotta be kidding."

Precisely. The poster flaunting his/her lawlessness? Many of us censure him/her (On MyFonts, a steal-the-font link is very soon seen by a moderator and edited out. Here, e-mailing a person with authority to do so is a clunky, slow solution). The clueless poster (the vast majority)? Education might help, but confrontational anger only irritates. And the next clueless poster? They've almost certainly read none of what has come before.

So what, then, is your ugly-gatekeeper ranting accomplishing? Nearly nothing. You accomplish nothing against the posters you don't like. New posters you don't like (apparently any "stranger") surely haven't read prior posts and are at high risk for pissing you off. The only thing you are accomplishing is making this forum an ugly, unfriendly place. How absurd an outcome of an agenda is that?

>>He just strikes me as the sort of user that should be shunned.<<

J. Edgar Hoover. Speaks volumes to Americans. I'm sorry I'm not learned enough to bring up an international equivalent (if one exists).

MyFonts is a business. Typophile is not. Your brand of "friendly" I see as a disease of contemporary Western society, and something that's often subverted to make our masters richer. What you describe as "standing up to a bully" I instead see as blindly defending a self-centered, shallow, hedonistic philosophy.

The only reason certain others who think like me (I am not alone) aren't fighting like me is that they've given up on the situation. I might too one day. But not yet.

Your extremist approach accomplishes absolutely nothing toward your goal!

You haven't seen extremism.

And I'm a pragmatic person, so I'm not yet sure it's wasted effort. It's not impossible that Typophile might one day have moderators who are more strict with people who clearly have no respect for type design, and the confrontation I'm engendering might be a catalyst. The main impediment to this is simply that Punchcut is sadly 99% hands-off now (and really, it's always been pretty hands-off).

Your intentions might be good, but your method is fatally flawed. You (plural) are making this place worse, in terms of how it can best serve typography - as opposed to merely serving individuals who only ever want vapid font IDs (and those who consider IDing fonts as a big accomplishment).

Since there's virtually no interaction between people who ID type and people who discuss type, I reiterate my suggestion of separating the two parts as much as possible, so that people who care about type don't get upset (often leaving) and people who don't want to be bothered by this can carry on with their lifestyle. My own desire is not at all to change anybody's personal beliefs.

hhp

Thanks Mike.
My sentiments exactly.

Wow: quite a dust-up. No matter which side of the fence you sit on, it is abundantly clear that this site is seeing more and more traffic from people who don’t even have the common courtesy (or is it simply common sense?) of reading the forum headings before posting their font ID requests.

The font ID service provided here is free—unlike all of the other ad-supported sites—so, if we get more than our fair share of freeloaders, what else can we expect? Doesn’t EVERYONE deserve EVERYTHING they want?

I think most of us agree that it does not get us anywhere to berate people based on their presumptive attitude towards buying fonts. You also can’t walk up to every man you see and start interrogating him—So, where have you been last night?—just because a man is statistically more likely than a woman to be a criminal. Well, you can do this, but I don’t think it would contribute anything to improving society, just like pirate hunting is not effective in terms of improving Typophile. And it seems sufficient to me that the type ID board is separated from the other boards. You could ask Punchcut to devise an entry page that gives you two options: ‘I need a font ID’ (in large type) and ‘I want to participate in general discussions’ (in smaller type). It’s (unfortunately?) not very likely that they will implement something like this.

One more thing: It might help to draft a concise explanation why pirating fonts is bad, written in layman’s terms. You could link to such a pamphlet when users seem to be misinformed about font licensing (which covers a considerable share of those asking here and elsewhere). I think that’s the only thing you can do: throw out those who openly brag about their collection of pirated fonts, try to educate those who don’t know what they are doing (without playing the schoolmaster) and live with the rest.

http://typophile.com/node/99793#comment-538737
If you don't act on cases like that, your (plural) supposed concern for the welfare of type design and Typophile is very difficult to take seriously. Please do not trade integrity for "friendliness".

hhp

@R.

Noble sentiments from a nobody, it seems. If you can’t own your own words, don’t expect them to carry any weight with real people who use their real names and express their real opinions, whether you like them or not…

Actually I think there are occasional good reasons to stay anonymous. The main problem is when people use anonymity to attack without risking retaliation, which R. is not doing.

hhp

oldnick makes a good point about names. When I came here six years ago it was in fact considered rude not to use your real name. I don’t recall what my first screen-name was, but I do recall that once I used real information I was taken more seriously and got more responses to comments. However, that was six years ago…

Hrant,

With all due respect, no—there are no good reasons to stay anonymous, only expedient or convenient reasons…