Actually that Kehinde Shot isn't Idlewild. Got too excited when I saw one of my favourite fine artists and one of my favourite type designers together,

Ryan—

Thank you for sharing your typographic **** with us all…

You like Idlewild (great typeface, well done) and you like Kehinde Wiley (thank you for introducing me to a great artist; once again, well done). What was the purpose of doing either? When you have posted serious questions in the past they have been left hanging with no follow up from you and then you post this for no clear reason. Is it guerilla publicity for H&F-J? If so, why have you regurgitated their publicity material? If you are merely expressing your admiration of the typeface, could you have elaborated? Was there a thought process? I am intrigued...

Hey, mods: seriously? O R G A S M S is a dirty word?

It's crimesex. Reread 1984.

Actually that Kehinde Shot isn't Idlewild.

It’s ITC Blair, a 1997 remake which traces its roots back to the Inland Type Foundry circa 1900.

Karl, I don't think it's so terrible - but it would be better as a Typophile blog entry.

hhp

but it would be better as a Typophile blog entry.

Agreed.

Should there be a lower case?

Also, mods, anyway to delete the Kehinde pic?

It's interesting comparing it to Eurostile/Microgramma, which also came out originally (microgramma) as uppercase only.

Should there be a lower case?

Would you see any purpose to having one? Looking at the range of examples it would seem fairly unnecessary to me.

I'm not sure if it needs a lowercase or not. Let's ask H&FJ to submit a design proposal for a lowercase to us, and then we will have a better answer! ;-)

Seriously though, I'm on the fence as to whether it needs an LC, thought I'd ask the experts.

Since lc is 95% of text, sure it "needs" one. But it might be challenging enough that other things always needing attention will forestall it. Or maybe they're planning for an upgrade. :-) Software companies for one certainly have developed a engrained habit of "trickling out" features.

hhp

I'm trying to decide whether or not to consider this a display face. If it is, I believe it is the first pure display face H&FJ have released. It does seems to work pretty good at text size, however.... hmmmm....

It's interesting how many glyphs it has and how many languages it supports. 367 glyphs, but no lowercase....

Yes, Hrant, I can see them easily trickling out the lowercase, another reason to compare it to Microgramma/Eurostile.

Personally, I think Idlewild needs lc the way the Cunard Queens need jetliner wings.

I bought this when it was released, as it filled a hole in my arsenal -- a very wide typeface.

I see that H&FJ are trying to show its versatility in their specimens. I do however find it very masculine, and that it requires a fair bit of thought and testing to keep it from looking motocross. Of course, there's nothing wrong with work.

There's definitely room in the world for more typefaces with this kind of width.

Todd, I'm working on a wide sans of my own, with a few more quirks and Deco influences than Idlewild. In it's current incarnation, I don't think anyone will mistake it for a motocross face. :) Idlewild was released after I started, and I referred to it occasionally to make sure I wasn't simply duplicating H&FJ's beautiful work.

http://typophile.com/node/95846

There's definitely room in the world for more typefaces with this kind of width.

Benton Sans has had a Wide version added, which will be part of a forthcoming Retail upgrade (within the next few weeks, hopefully).

Who do you work for anyway, Kent?

You might spell the name of the typeface correctly in your thread title, Ryan.

Who do you work for anyway, Kent?

I work for myself. I provide design and consultation for various clients. This includes some part-time work with Font Bureau.

Actually, there is a lower case.
(Not the same thing as minuscules.)
In Idlewild, majuscule glyphs appear in both upper and lower case, same size relative to the em.
So, there is no caps-with-small-caps effect.

Marc: Yes, I've been watching the development of your typeface. It's really coming along.

Kent: Nice! I assume the l/c g will get a little darker, eh? (Could be the image)

Josh, yeah, can't edit it now though.

You should be able to edit your original post.

I believe the ability to edit original posts has been gone for weeks now.

here's a thread you started, do you see a link to edit the original post? If so, might that be because you have mod privileges?

http://typophile.com/node/97575

So wait, lowercase and miniscules aren't the same thing?

Right.
Hence unicase types, which are a mixture of majuscule and minuscule forms.
So, seeing as how the standard font encodings (for LCG) have upper and lower case, the problem for designers of all-cap or unicase typefaces is, what to do with the spare case?—do you leave it empty, fill it with a duplicate of your singular alphabet, or a copy at a smaller size (“optical scaling”), for a caps-with-small-caps/unicase-with-small-unicase effect?

So what does "lower case" actually mean then? Is this just leftover from the printing days when you kept your miniscule sorts in the 'lower case'?

In a practical sense, it’s most relevant to the shift function on keyboards, which is not a left-over from typewriter/type case days, but a carry-forward.

BTW, Unicode refers to Capital and Small letters, which is not much use typographically.

Zeppelin has lowercase

Small caps, same size or minuscules?

@Ryan – That's roughly it. "Lower case" and minuscules are largely synonyms nowadays in the mundane world.

On further investigation, I’ve identified five categories of case relationship:

• Majuscule/Minuscule
• Identical
• Large/Small
• Stylistic Alternates
• (Lower Case) Blank or with Common Placeholder Glyph

Although Small Caps is the most frequent example of Large/Small, it does not adequately describe this sort of arrangement (Parity, a unicase typeface):

I still don't understand. So lowercase means what? Nothing?

Lower case is the complement to upper case.
It traditionally comprised the minuscule characters in bicameral systems, but now also accomodates other alternates to majuscule glyphs, in typefaces which do not have minuscules.
Lower case characters have separate code points in Unicode, enabling them to be linked by the shift key on keyboard devices, or by other casing operations.

"So lowercase means what? Nothing?"

No. It means e.g. I AM NOT RAISING MY VOICE.

Maybe that’s my being French, but Idlewild reminds me a little bit of Roger Excoffon’s Antique Olive Nord. Chester Jenkins’ Aero is quite close as well.

David: I AM NOT RAISING MY VOICE.

However, with Idlewild YOU’RE ALWAYS SHOUTING.

So if I put a bunch of triangles in the unicode "lowercase" slots, those triangles are accuratly considered lowercase? I mean basically it sounds like you're saying upper and lowercase don't have anything to do with majuscules and miniscules anymore, but are more of just a label for what is located in a certain range in unicode? And if uppercase is what you get when you press the shift key, is the at synmbol the uppercase for the number 2? Still very confused.

Or talking grandiloquently.

Celeste, indeed curves are handled in a similar way on both faces. A very elegant solution.

Nick, Zeppelin has minuscule lowercarse.

"Still very confused."

On a cold and grey typ-o-phile morning another little hungry boy is born... in the ghetto.

Nope, @Nick. Idlewild is a Marantz 170DC PA.