Howcum these interesting discussion threads almost
never fail to turn into nasty name-calling after a
dozen of posts or so. Man, I get SO tired of it that the
Typophile Forums get hijacked for personal vendettas.
People, get a life! Conduct your online wars via e-mail,
pleaze! Really...

P.S. I was using "Man" in a non-gender- or age-specific
sense, not related to any demographic.

Gerald Lange,

You seemed to be confused. But I have taken it upon myself to help you. Us middle aged white males are supposed to be kind to the young uns because we know so much. It's hard, young uns like yourself can be pretty cheeky and sometimes, just gol danged rude. But I'm going to give it the old school try.

I know, I don't expect any thank yous.

The Pascal60.jpg referred to by Joe was posted by Hrant on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 11:00 pm: Go have a read for yourself. Write that date down nice and careful like.

But . . . Joe refers to my post of June 25, 2003 - 12:53 am. Go over it nice and slow like now.

Follow!

Joe's words, notice the date now.

And it seems to me that Mr Giampa's post regarding
>http://www.themicrofoundry.com/other/Pascal60.jpg
on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:53 am was exactly correct.

W is for Wednesday, it is not for "winnuendo".

I just knew you could do it. But just to be sure I have included, in quote, the following post, dated. Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:53. See for yourself, write that down nice and carful like. Now I'm testing you boy, did you notice how I spelled careful?

I should have been a teacher. I am a very patient fellow as we all know.

Now I just love quoting myself. Here she comes.


"Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:53 am:


Hrant,

I see what you see, only I read it differently. I see cleaning out the corners. The metal must be clean or it will not relieve when cast. It will "hold" when the type is removed. What I can see is evidence of gravure slippage, or manipulation error on the top crotch of the "h".

On the "b" if your theory was correct the punchcutter has lost control. Please draw your eye to the top bowel-crotch of the ascending stem. Either the top crotch is an error, or the bottom crotch an error? Take your pick. There is no need for one without the other. If you take issue to the nature of stems and placement compare the situation on the companion areas of the "d".

So no more yeah buts . . . please!

If "ink trapping" were "the intention" the application "should be even". His work, as you can easily see, is not that fussy.

Or, lots of theory, little ability to apply.

Meaning this artifact lends little support to your hypothesis. If he is cutting ink trapping intentionally he should have enough skills to apply hisprincipals evenly throughout. I am not disparaging the beauty of his letterforms in fact the cut-look-&-feel is integral to the very beauty. The crudeness is in effect, much more than secondary to the design.

But "ink trapping", come come.

These letters are much as if they were cut in linoleum or wood. Those are the characteristics which come easily when using similar tools such as a gravure. There are large and small gravures. Tools, including needles are used in small point sizes or tight areas. These cuts are
"humongoumamouth".

Looking at these letterforms I see forms worked by mostly a single gravure, large by type cutting standards. Certainly it, possibly them, would be used only in the crudest of work when cutting an 8 pt. character. Probably, not even then.

The very nature of these letterforms does not required fine gravures. The large gravure(s) have given the design the intended emotions of thedesigner. Cutting emotions. I suggest a more finished look would have greatly reduced its appeal.

If you view the crotch in the Q you will see a place where it would "certainly deserve" the "ink trap treatment" you refer to "if the punchcutter believed as you".

I see a punchcutter seeking a-cut-look-&-feel to his letterforms, and getting it. Forgiving people such as yourselves for mistaking them to be either faults, or "in your(s) case(s)" inktraps in order to achieve the characteristic nature of the letterforms that have drawn our attentions. By the way, which because of the tooling, are acidly beautiful.

You have to love it for what it is, not for what you want it to be. You should remember that boys, and the girls shall be forever thankful.

There is an acid sharpness throughout, and I suspect lots of "gravure", little "file".

There is a general crudeness throughout and if you notice the "h" has another mis-cutting on the top left curve. Also if you view the beard of the same character you will see a flatness on the lower portions of the gravure straightening into perpendicular at the top of the stroke meeting closeto the same error. He is giving a lot of meaning to free handing and that I believe issues much of the beauty of this particular typeface.

I highly recommend that some of you consider cutting types yourselves. The impossibility is merely an obstacle in your minds. But remember,
there is few of us left. Contact Jim Rimmer.

Gerald Giampa
Lanston Type Company "

End of quote

So Mr. Lange!

Joe says,

And it seems to me that Mr Giampa's post regarding
>http://www.themicrofoundry.com/other/Pascal60.jpg
on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:53 am was exactly correct.

Re-read my post and tell me something intelligent!


Gerald Giampa
Lanston Type Company

Yves Peters

My issue is not with the your usage of "man". It is the usage of the word "male" as referred to in Hrants posting not to far above where we are now. And, to be sure, it is "sex" specific.

Quote, Hrant. Quote within the quote is mine.

"Demographic: middle-aged white American 'male'. It must've been something in the air while they were growing up, but they generally: salivate over obese disco fonts; refuse to admit the relevance -sometimes even the existence- of trapping; can't stand me"

End of Hrants quote.

I have no use for comments from people hiding under white sheets and burning crosses. I need not remind you of the plight of American "Blacks", for that matter American "Women". Granny bashing is a no no as well.

For instance would the Typophiles condone this?

"Demographic: middle-aged black American woman. It must've been something in the air while they were growing up, but they generally: salivate over obese disco fonts; refuse to admit the relevance -sometimes even the existence- of trapping; can't stand me" Gee, I wonder why? Comment: My own.

Get the point.

I realize that Hrant does not believe in democracy so why should he allocate sympathy to fact.

Mr Lange appears to have the same problem. All I can say to him is read my previous posting and weep.

Your input is thoughtful. I think that there should be room for differences in opinion, contrary to one of Hrants stated opinions otherwise.

By the way I am a fan of your regular postings. They stand out in the crowd.

Don't lose what you've got, it's something special.


Gerald Giampa
Lanston Type Co. Ltd.

Lets kill this thread since it bears little resemblance to the original question that has been answered.

Thanks,
gln

Thank you Gerry,

I am always happy to be helpful. Good day to you all.

Gerald Giampa

In Armenian we have a proverb: "Not every loonie wears his underwear on his head."
But virtually -and possibly literally- speaking, this proverb seems not to be applicable
in the case of this specimen.

hhp

Hrant,

Admittedly you could not be wearing it on a more appropriate place. Silly me, all along I thought you were hiding the top of your toilet.


Pascal, that's not ink trapping!

Gerald

> Silly me, [...]

Yes indeed, Mr. Giampa. <sigh>

Come on guys, lets kill this thread.

If you want to battle one another a more appropriate thread is "An open letter".


Thanks to both of you,
gln

I am with Yves.

>Man, I get SO tired of it that the
>Typophile Forums get hijacked for personal
>vendettas.
>People, get a life! Conduct your online wars >via e-mail,
>Pleaze! Really...

Maybe you should ask the webmasters to build in a new category:
'discussions which have nothing to do with the original concept of TYPOPHILE:COM' with subcategories like 'Personal vendettas for everyone to read'.

Then you all can show how interesting your lifes are to all readers. And the others will carry on talking about type and help those who need to be helped.

----Jacques

Is there some fight here?
Can I help?

A word to the numbskull rating the posts, get a life.
Haven't you got anything better to do?

Yves

Nope

Oh, the irony...

Yves,

You are a cool cat man. I dig your sense of humour?

Gerald

Yves,

You are a cool cat man. I dig your sense of humour?

I'm giving you a big fiver for the irony word.


Gerald

Gerald,

> Nope

Come on. You can do better than that.

Jacques

And I can say that again?

Thanks for the fun!

Gerald

Jacques,

I am sorry, yes I can, how about this.

Top left, first few paragraphs.

I just cant' wait for those stars you are going to give me.

http://www.lanstontype.com/CaslonATF.html


Gerald

Gerald,

In Caslon's era, you'd to meet those guys at dawn and only one would go home for being sarcastic like that.

Can't give stars, cause I can't vote with smileys.

Jacques

Jacques,

Under the circumstances I would rather go home alone. Wink wink.

gerald

Gerald,

before doing so, don't forget to install a webcam, so that we all can see it online.

Jacques

Jack

God Jack, what the hell are you doing in your logo?



Gerald

Gerald,

any suggestions?

YAK

Jack,

Yah got the the wrong Gerald, you might be looking for Geraldine Lange.

But obviously I must have stumbled into some kind of porn chat line by mistake. So you yung uns carry on with what you are doing. Don't let me stop you. Vote Liberal!

See you "nipple sucking cult kittens later".

But be careful.

This Honky is out of here.

See you later fans.


Gerald Giampa

> Gerald,

scared? Casted too much type in your life, wa?

Jacques

Jack,

You must be going blind and growing warts. I said good bye already. God some of you guys give me the heeby jeebies.

Us middle age Honky males are just a little to set in our ways. I hope you don't mind but I have declined your offer. Surely you don't mind a little rejection. With logo like that I imagine you are a pretty lonely little boy. But when you grow up you should not be peeping through keyholes as you suggested, and don't talk dirty to us old Honky males.

Now run along a play with your little toy.

You got to learn that no mean no.




Gerald Giampa

Gigi,

you're being inconsistent:

quote In Canada there is a law against age discrimination. unquote

I may not have casted type more than 60 hours and even if I have just started my career, I always tried to be respectfull regarding other persons and their work. Obviously Gigi doesn't. Indeed, I did lower myself by writting my few last reactions, but my goal was to see how Gigi would react upon. As my assumptium was right, he answered in an almost childish way, unprofessional and personal. Although we've never met.

I think this forum can endure some heated up disccussions. But if one is wanting to get personal, he or she should do that on different means. If so, he or she must have a lack of respect or maybe even some problems. Or he or she desperatly seeks for attention.

Don't forget what this forum used to be about.

Bye bye, I have some more important things to do, like drinking coffee for example.

Jacques

Jacques,

Thankfully I don't live in that Canada place, boy would I be in a heap of trouble. Us middle aged Honky males have got lots to learn. Thanks. Like I said I enjoy dialogue with everyone. Well not quite.

You were not on your best behavior either, I hope.

Give my regard to Yves Peters. He has a sense of humour.

Joe's words, notice the date now.

And it seems to me that Mr Giampa's post regarding
>http://www.themicrofoundry.com/other/Pascal60.jpg
on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:53 am was exactly correct.

W is for Wednesday, it is not for "winnuendo".


Gerald Giampa

Gerald,

Indeed, I wasn't a good boy. Sometimes you have to.

Wishing you a nice day, gerald. I hope this year there aren't too much musquitos. I am going to the beach, playing with my son.

Jacques

Sorry Jacques,

Lets just forget it. I am not a bad as you imagine. Take care of your son. Spend lots of time with him. Kids are just great. Miss mine.

Gerald

> I said good bye already.

Of all your fabrications, this is definitely the one I most wish wasn't one.

You see Gerald, in a virtual community you can't stop people talking to (or at) you. If you really want people to stop, you'll have to leave for real then wait a year or so for your previous presence to wash out. But I recommend something much more challenging: develop the required -and admittedly paradoxical- combination of sensitivity and tough skin to stay and become a useful member here. Now that you're "in" and have pissed off so many people so much, your choices are much more limited - I'm talking from experience! :-)

It's a shame Joe couldn't seem to handle to heat (unless he quickly decided that the advertising he was doing here simply wasn't cost-effective), because I think he is indeed a nice guy, and is willing to teach what he knows.

hhp

Joe's words, notice the date now.

And it seems to me that Mr Giampa's post regarding >http://www.themicrofoundry.com/other/Pascal60.jpg
on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:53 am was exactly correct.

W is for Wednesday, it is not for "winnuendo".

> Now that you're "in" and have pissed off so many
people so much

Damn straight. What an obnoxious and bitter online
personality he has...

What a crap

At the risk of getting my (virtual) head smashed for this comment... the most absurd about all this is that the whole flame war began with a discussion about hot metal tye. I mean, how few folks in the Western World share a love for metal type? How few folks still work with it -- couldn't be much more than a few dozen, maybe hundreds, right? I know I only get to work once with it (not me personally, but with a printer realising a design with movable type) and I loved it, just as I ove steel engraving and all that old-school stuff. But still, from the few folks left who in this digital age dig the idea of handlettering with lead letters and all that, you still manage NOT to celebrate the joy of your common fondness for type, but instead you argue and quarrel. Reminds me a lot of the comic-book-forums where in a dying medium fnas and creators alike are rather often thannot at each others throats. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with personality (e.g. John Byrne and Peter David both are nice guys individually, but get them together online and they can't keep from ... cyber-vomiting on each other). Same story here. Sometimes its fun to watch, mostly it gets depressing after a while as it is the internet-age counterpart of pissing in the snow.

If this is actually keeping people like Joe or Erik or whoever fromposting here, we're all loosing out big time. There's a lot of folks hanging round here whose work I positively admire (and some whose work Ilearned to admire by getting to know them here :-), and I frankly fell off my chair when I saw that Erik Spiekermann had written a post or that Yves Porch

I think most people who don't participate in public discussion groups have much more rational reasons than avoiding personality conflicts. Usually, they simply don't see much to gain for themselves. Yes, it's mostly our loss, but you can't force them to be gracious and generous.

BTW, I dislike metal type: it's highly display-centric and very limited. Letterpress though (like through photopolymer plates) is a different story. And just the fact that few people do it doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss and get passionate about it. After all, what percentage of people design type at all?

hhp

http://www.lanstontype.com/CaslonATF.html

Anonymous

Hard to say if you will get one star or five stars for that one.

And lo ho ho, it was mightily proclaimed from on high, once mo...

>It's a shame Joe couldn't seem
>to handle to heat (...)


I haven't posted further because I had nothing more to add.

As I had said earlier, I'd thought that Mr. Giampa had made his point expertly, and perfectly.

When a couple of other forum members requested on the thread that the oddly escalating battle of words stop or get back on topic, I exited abruptly. As requested.

Don't you be dissin' my lurkin'. :-)


And, whilst the trumpets played sweetly, perhaps by the angels themselves...

>I think most people who don't participate
>in public discussion groups have much more
>rational reasons than avoiding personality
>conflicts. Usually, they simply don't see
>much to gain for themselves.


Oops! There's that creeping 'personal gain', 'profiteering' magma again.

Again: We're here and able to discuss typography today because typefounding is, historically and presently, a business. Not a hobby. Not a non-profit. It's a for-profit industry made up of for-profit businesses.

There's nothing to apologize for in that.

PSA
(By the way, a number of foundries out there right now would appreciate your business. When you finish here, log off and go show your commitment to typography by buying 10% more of whatever you would normally purchase in type ...er, fonts... today!)
/PSA

I tell you: the reason for my not posting more, is that I have a business to run.

A real, honest-to-goodness business. In the real world. Pretty demanding.

Just as many today are surprised to see a typewriter for the first time, you may be surprised to find that running a typefoundry requires more than typing onto keyboards or speaking into MacSpeech or ViaVoice, and clicking the 'Post this Message' button.

While these forums are great get-togethers, I'd be very surprised if they were most (read: any) type designer's primary pursuits, or primary business responsibility.

Nor should they be.

For me and I'd bet for other business-oriented type designers, showing up here (and at other forums) is tantamount to using some of one's 'leisure time'. 'Some' time that often ends up requiring a lot more time. Teaching - and learning. Even for the teacher!

So, yes, when I can, I'll try to post. And hopefully, something that's on topic and generally beneficial.

I started spending time here and later contributing because it seemed to me that this was a premier, professional forum.

I believe that it is.

Although the degree to which font piracy is conceptually upheld - directly or with strong innuendo - and by those whose posts betray them as folks who really should know better - is one quite offputting aspect, though.

(For the record: I will no longer be responding to this thread, nor others, unless it grooves me.)

:-)

Joe

And lo ho ho, it was mightily proclaimed from on high, once mo...

>It's a shame Joe couldn't seem
>to handle to heat (...)


I haven't posted further because I had nothing more to add.

As I had said earlier, I'd thought that Mr. Giampa had made his point expertly, and perfectly.

When a couple of other forum members requested on the thread that the oddly escalating battle of words stop or get back on topic, I exited abruptly. As requested.

Don't you be dissin' my lurkin'. :-)


And, whilst the trumpets played sweetly, perhaps by the angels themselves...

>I think most people who don't participate
>in public discussion groups have much more
>rational reasons than avoiding personality
>conflicts. Usually, they simply don't see
>much to gain for themselves.


Oops! There's that creeping 'personal gain', 'profiteering' magma again.

Again: We're here and able to discuss typography today because typefounding is, historically and presently, a business. Not a hobby. Not a non-profit. It's a for-profit industry made up of for-profit businesses.

There's nothing to apologize for in that.

PSA
(By the way, a number of foundries out there right now would appreciate your business. When you finish here, log off and go show your commitment to typography by buying 10% more of whatever you would normally purchase in type ...er, fonts... today!)
/PSA

I tell you: the reason for my not posting more, is that I have a business to run.

A real, honest-to-goodness business. In the real world. Pretty demanding.

Just as many today are surprised to see a typewriter for the first time, you may be surprised to find that running a typefoundry requires more than typing onto keyboards or speaking into MacSpeech or ViaVoice, and clicking the 'Post this Message' button.

While these forums are great get-togethers, I'd be very surprised if they were most (read: any) type designer's primary pursuits, or primary business responsibility.

Nor should they be.

For me and I'd bet for other business-oriented type designers, showing up here (and at other forums) is tantamount to using some of one's 'leisure time'. 'Some' time that often ends up requiring a lot more time. Teaching - and learning. Even for the teacher!

So, yes, when I can, I'll try to post. And hopefully, something that's on topic and generally beneficial.

I started spending time here and later contributing because it seemed to me that this was a premier, professional forum.

I believe that it is.

Although the degree to which font piracy is conceptually upheld - directly or with strong innuendo - and by those whose posts betray them as folks who really should know better - is one quite offputting aspect, though.

(For the record: I will no longer be responding to this thread, nor others, unless it grooves me.)

:-)

Joe

Apologies for the apparent double post.

Listmom: There was an uploading hiccup of some kind regarding 'template structure', seen only after clicking the 'Post' button.

Joe

Listmom: It looked like this (as I just got the same error again).... -Joe
--------------------------------
Template Error

A template problem or error occurred for the following reason:

Template file [admin_dir]/template/*******/notify.tmpl is corrupt! It does not contain the <!--end--> identifier. Perhaps it was not
completely uploaded!
-----

> Nor should they be.

Don't try to decide things for other people. You continue living your life the way you want it, and I'll continue pointing out that you're wasting it.

BTW, Typophile doesn't "conceptually uphold" piracy. But it is an open-minded, tolerant place, where rabid, blind, self-righteous protectionists tend to be as shunned as wormy dyed-in-the-wool pirates.

I'm not a listmom, I'm just a member, but one with many opinions which I'm not afraid to air in public, including this: I think your participation here is great, except when you're too much of a salesman. This is not a bazaar. We're mostly here because we love type, and I for one believe that commerce impedes cultural progress. If you want to be culturally relevant, you better start making fonts that don't [necessarily] sell very well, but will open up new (as opposed to 30 years dead) avenues in the craft. If you don't, then don't expect too much respect from people like me. You don't want respect from people like me? Then we're set.

hhp

*commerce impedes cultural progress.*

The dictionary in our office provides this definition of "commerce":
1. The buying and selling of goods, esp. on a large scale, as between cities or nations. 2. Intellectual exchange or social interaction.

Although the first definition might not serve to encourage cultural progress directly, I have trouble understanding how the second aspect of "commerce" could do anything but encourage cultural progress. Isn't it difficult to engage in the "buying and selling of goods" without involving some social intercourse? This "social" part of commerce, admittedly along with many other things, is what I believe contributes to cultural development. It's not the money changing hands, it's the dialogue that preceeds the exchange of money.

In it flew, over the transom.

Look, a note!

Sigh, it's not from Will Ransom....


>...and I'll continue pointing out
>that you're wasting it.

Thanks. I guess that's why people are currently buying our fonts twenty and more at a time. At the retail prices, to boot.

Here's your own pill back:

"Don't try to decide things for other people."



>BTW, Typophile doesn't
>"conceptually uphold" piracy.

I did not say that Typophile itself (the mechanism) did. Did I?

No, I did not. The phrasing purposely pointed to individual posters, who will undoubtedly recognize themselves.



>But it is an open-minded, tolerant place,
>where rabid, blind, self-righteous
>protectionists tend to be as shunned as
>wormy dyed-in-the-wool pirates.

And shunned they should be.




>If you want to be culturally relevant, ...

Here's your own pill back, yet again:

"Don't try to decide things for other people."

Oh, yes, and see above: I guess that's why people are currently buying our fonts twenty and more at a time.



I decided to take a look at this list's content, as I said, because I thought it was a professional list. (I still think so.)

It would be a mistake to think that I started contributing to this list for the purpose of seeking out respect. As I said earlier on, I don't try to build an ersatz career out of showing up on listservs.

And as I'd even earlier said, when I see disinformation being doled out, especially where students and those new to the profession might well be tainted by it, I'll seek to set the record straight.

Nothing more than that, really. (Well, I might have a question of my own, from time to time. Hopefully, if I need help, the group might reply accordingly.)


>This is not a bazaar.


I should think that those aware enough of type's nicety and variety to be on this list would welcome the opinion and guidance of actual experts working commercially in the field, and for decades, as being - well - expert. That it doesn't seem to, evenly, is striking.

It's generally been an attitude of not allowing the record to be set straight, plus considerable overt baiting, that has continued argument in counterproductive fashion. Ending up wasting a lot of space.

I realize that you don't see that.


Looking back at some archives here, and on other type related lists, I have come to realize, this week, that the agenda of baiting has been going on for many years now.

That the baiting recently turned personally prejudicial adds to the lopsided unfortunateness of it all.



>You don't want respect from people like me?
>Then we're set.


If you do prove yourself to be a type professional eventually, as you claim to want to be, you will have my innate respect for that. You already have my respect for trying hard.

From where you seem to be currently in your apparently very limited type appreciation spectrum, I have no idea how to suggest you get there.

Pack your box with more than just six liquor jugs, though. It's a long journey.

Joe

> I guess that's why people are currently buying our fonts

They're also buying the National Enquirer.

You consistently fail to see the separation between sales and cultural relevance.

> I thought it was a professional list.

Assuming you're using the word the way I'm using it, no, it's not professional at all - it's mostly cultural. There's very little financial stuff being discussed or used as motivation.

(Dana, I believe the human psyche is about emotion, not material goods.)

> I don't try to build an ersatz career out of showing up on listservs.

Yes, not a career - you already have that - but naturally nobody else cares about your career - they care about what you can give back to the culture of type.

If, if, you'd like to build some cultural relevance, then a listserv is a superb tool, simply because culture is about communicating, not selling crap.

> welcome the opinion and guidance of actual experts working commercially

Those of us who are in it mostly for the money would certainly appreciate your presence greatly. But for those of us who are in it mostly for the culture, what can you teach us? That ITC should be our model?

> as you claim to want to be

What the hell gave you that idea?

hhp

At least on one occasion in this thread I've been a bit too mean towards Gerald Giampa.
I apologize, and will try not to react so negatively.

hhp

*the human psyche is about emotion, not material goods*

Hrant,

I realise that my own message is easily overlooked among so many well written and more interesting ones, but you still seem to have noticed it.

It concluded with: "It's not the money changing hands, it's the dialogue that preceeds the exchange of money." So, in this respect, I completely agree with you. However, it is my belief that that social intercourse which is inevitably linked to commerce aids, rather than limits the development of culture.

dana

>You consistently fail to see the separation
>between sales and cultural relevance.

It would appear that you aren't yet grasping a basic: That the cultural relevance of a type design is usually what provides its ability to actually fall into popular use. That is, to achieve sales.

Joe