GOOD IDEA! Let us have it, oh revered Typophile masters!

Can't just any of you guys post last year's file?
I would appreciate it very much
It's that my free time is running up...

Thanks

http://www.typophile.com/downloads/tshirt_kit.zip

Just know that there will very likely be more restrictions this
year on the size of the screens (ink coverage) and the
number of colors.

Please choose a typographic shirt this time, eh?

hhp

Wha? They were typographic.

The two popular votes -which were arguably resorted to because the "official" jury vote was unpopular- were typographic, but that jury vote itself was lettering. Very nice lettering, but lettering. And the International Boating Association wouldn't use an airplane skywriting its name on their shirts.

hhp

what is the deadline?



David Hamuel

> that jury vote itself was lettering

So if we were to have it Hrant's way we would only discuss
type issues here. Lettering is off-topic until J&J change the
site's name to www.typophilesandletteringlovers.com.

Haa! Aah! No lettering. Well, that just ain't fair. :^(

{scrambling to get to register.com before someone else does}

Better add graphic design too, Jared. Some of us have been
known to discuss that as well without Hrant's approval.

.. And music ... And food

I love the shirts we ended up with last year - and there were a lot of entries to wade through. I only hope this year's contest will bear similar fruits, and we see some design concepts not seen last year. Perhaps if we limit the number of submissions one can submit, designers will be more selective about what they send in. IMHO, Rich Roat described it best.

who can post a sample (from last year) ?

thanks.


David Hamuel

> You should be able to view them here: http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/29/4086.html

Hey, I personally discuss chocolate on Typophile! Lettering obviously has a lot of synergy with type, even more than aviation has synergy with boating... So it's fruitful to discuss it, at length even. I do it myself, to the extent of the little I know about it. But discussion aside, it's not crazy to think that something as singular as a logo on a mass-produced t-shirt benefits by being focused on the topic. The two popular-vote shirts didn't have the superb execution of the jury winner, but they were more appropriate, more in tune with the entity they were conveying.

I might be sounding like a fundamentalist, but focus in a visual piece is a virtue, right?

--

I was wondering why the jury chose a lettering piece. Because it was well-executed? Or if you look at the jury members, you might see a tendency to favor "organic" things. I love animals, but if you don't really like type that much, maybe you shouldn't spend so much time with it? John Downer for example is a highly skilled and talented letterer, and he seems to be increasingly focusing on that instead of type design. I still hope he has some great secret type design he'll spring on us (I mean besides Paperback, which so far is disappointing), but if he's more in harmony with lettering, why force it? Focus is good.

hhp

Look, I don't know precisely why my design was chosen (although I'm happy and grateful it was), but there was nothing in the guidelines saying you had to use type. Other than including the name "Typophile" and sticking to certain practical limitations, pretty much anything could qualify.

A purely typographic solution is an obvious choice for a Typophile shirt because of the general subject matter, but that's just one possibility. Why limit it to that? And, after all, the other one that was chosen (which I think is a really cool shirt, by the way) was an illustration and didn't have any more type on it than mine.

The submitter's responsability is limited to the piece(s) submitted, not the result of the competition. The result is the responsability of the organizers* and jury. As for the submission guidelines, I don't think it would have been smart to have a strict typographic requirement (that would have potentially excluded genial non-typographic submissions), but maybe a nudge in that direction would have been helpful. I mean like in your case, since you make great fonts as well as lettering, it might have prompted you to submit a typographic piece instead, and it might still have won! On the other hand, such a nudge would have to be endorsed by the jury, and I'm not sure they would have gone for it.

* To be fair, the organizers did a superb job overall (as I've said before). The only thing that was a no-no was allowing submissions from Typophile staff.

> the other one that was chosen ... was an illustration

Yeah, but not of a dog or broadnib pen or a paintbrush, but of a typecase. Plus the original version (which for some reason lost the "California Job Case" punchline) had type in it.

The kind of shirt I personally would have ideally liked to see chosen would convey the passionate and technical discussions of type that we have here. It's hard to do that without being trite, and I know that my own submissions failed pretty badly overall.

All I know is, this is type-land, so the ideal shirt would be typographic.

hhp

Actually Mark, it had a LOT more type than yours. As I recall, there's a pile of lead type on the back that someone clearly neglected to file back into their proper locations.

:wink:

re: allowing submissions from Typophile staff.

C'mon, is that so wrong? As designers ourselves, we had a few ideas too. (Actually, Joe was the only one to toss his designs into the ring) - but since we are divorced from the selection process (one was chosen by a panel of judges and the other by popular vote) I see no harm in it.

I think the trick here is selecting a shirt that looks cool and not overly geeky. The job case shirt has a nice ambiguity to it, so only type people get it. That said, I'd say we've shipped equal amounts of shirts - no one of the two is clearly dominating the race.

jb

Huh? Why would it be a no-no? As I recall, no one submitted with their names attached.

Sorry, when is the deadline? :-)
Is it posted in fiery letters somewhere?

Thanks,
Randy

> All I know is, this is type-land, so the ideal shirt
would be typographic.

Nah, "type-related" IMHO.

> I might be sounding like a fundamentalist,

Ah... I'm not saying anything. I still remember the
heated discussion that followed the publication of
that wonderful picture with "light-lettering" by
Stephen.

> (which I think is a really cool shirt, by the way)

Damn straight, it's too cool for words. (uh-oh, I'm
gonna get flame-broiled by Mr.D. again) Not only
that, but it's cool in a mysterious kinda way:
everybody keeps asking what that striking geometric
symbol means. Furthermore it's both classy and fun,
and the colour scheme is just perfect. Last Tuesday
we did a photo shoot with the new line-up of my
rawk band, and guess what I was wearing?

You know what, I'll start a General Discussions thread
with some scans as soon as I have the prints, and
maybe other people can add theirs. David already
posted his picture with Mark's shirt on his site. Picture
which appears to have disappeared.

Jared,

thank you for the link. and again - what is the deadline?


David Hamuel

LOL - We're lining up the judges right now and will announce the contest in the coming weeks. Suffice it to say that the contest will be to design next year's Typophile Tee, so anyone who's itching to get ideas down can go ahead and start percolatin'. More details soon, as we get them ourselves...

> is that so wrong?

Come on, man, are you kidding? Why do you think it's a standard clause in any reputable competition? Usually not even blood relations are allowed to participate!

When it comes to public perception (for better or worse an integral part of our social reality), it's not enough to have good intentions, you have to steer clear of any potential damage to your reputation, especially when you have so little to gain! It's common sense, man.

Can you imagine if Joe's entry had won? What would people think? Could you really blame some people from having their suspicions? It's not like they're your best friends and can have total faith that you're "fair" guys. So in the end you're damaging Typophile's reputation. And what do you really gain by allowing staff submissions, besides an ego trip? It's a bad idea, and you need the self-discipline to hold back.

> no one submitted with their names attached.

But the names would have -and of course did- come up at the end.
Even before the end, when you consider that the popular vote did provide the names.

> "light-lettering"

Yeah, I remembered that too! Superb thread.

hhp

Hrant, that's good food for thought. It definitely crossed my
(our) minds last year and clearly there are trade-offs. In the
end, I (we) just wanted to raise the bar and ensure a shirt
we could be proud of (and wear!) was in the running. Toward
the middle of the contest it was very clear there were plenty
of good options and I quit submitting.

In the end, when the designs went to the judges, they were
all presented anonymously. The judges didn't know they
picked Mark Simonson's design.

Anyone else feel like 'staff' submissions dilute the
credibility of the contest or of Typophile? I tend to think
that if we were a corporation it would smell fishy, but that
since our whole mantra is open collaboration that I want to
contribute just like anybody else. On the other hand, we
will be receiving more corporate sponsorships of this
contest this year...

Sorry, my thoughts are all over the place. But, the last thing
I would want is for someone to cry foul or feel the contest
was somehow loaded or unfair.

Yeah, but not of a dog or broadnib pen or a paintbrush

> Toward the middle of the contest it was very clear there were plenty of good options and I quit submitting.

You might have even pulled your submissions out. Anyway, the past is the past, and I'm sure the Typophile Tee contest will be [even] better this time.

> I'm not sure my name has that much chachet in the type world, Hrant.

Well, it wasn't just you, and "cachet" can be negative too. Anyway, my point was that seeing the organizer of the event in the list of people to choose from is awkward, and it distracts from making a sound decision. But hiding the names wouldn't have been the ideal solution, Joe not participating would - even if that means less good work for the jury/members to choose from.

BTW, what do you guys think of giving paid members of Typophile multiple votes or something (assuming you [have to] do a popular vote again)?

hhp

BTW, what do you guys think of giving paid members
of Typophile multiple votes or something (assuming you
[have to] do a popular vote again)?

Uh, George Orwell warned us for that. Check quote 10.
One person, one vote. It's the best of the multitude
of flawed options. Always worked fine for me.

> Anyone else feel like 'staff' submissions dilute the credibility of the contest or of Typophile?

No reply... Notably, no "no"s. Silence is a partial answer, but defficient.

Do they have no opinion, or are they being too polite? Note that people are less candid to those who are more polite. Thus, information is curtailed. At what gain?

hhp

I think staff submissions are a bad idea, for the reasons Hrant outlined.

(Hrant, you might want to wait more than 20 hours from the original post before assuming that "no response" means "no opinion." On a Friday night, no less!*)

*said candidly, but politely, I hope.

I think 'staff' submissions are a bad idea, too. Even if the judges don't know which ones they are, if one of you won, you'd never hear the end of it.

It's a bit of a gray/gray area to me. From a gut feeling,
I'd say why not if submissions are anonymous and neither
of them is in the jury, but public perception might kill
the best of intentions. I'm affraid Mark has a point there.

Who's considered staff here? Short Caps Too?

I assume it means Joe and Jared. Everyone else is an "outsider" here as far as I know.

And maybe Hoefler, since he's still the recluse "don" of Typophile :-) , if I'm not mistaken.

On the other hand, forum moderators and such might in fact be borderline.

hhp

Depends. One major factor is the scope, or scale.

((speaking generally)
If you had a competition among a small, tight-knit online community,
or among a group of friends, with the
winner getting a pat on the back, then the question of
whether to include staff submissions wouldn't be an issue.
The overriding factor would be, Let's have some fun.

When you include big-name judges and cash and prizes,
when you get exposure at major design portals,
then you widen the scope and heighten the expectations.

So Jared and Joe now have to weigh
the joy of submitting and the competitive desire to WIN
against the perception of wrongdoing should one of them win.

That's a tough call, but it's easy for outsiders.

Last year, this issue was discussed, if only briefly.
Because I was going to be involved in producing the
Tshirts, I renounced
my eligibility. It can't hurt to err on the side of caution.

At the same time, I can see where J&J are coming from.
Some of the initial designs were lacking, and Joe's pride
kicked in + they conceived this online type oasis,
and they spend money out of pocket to make it hum.
It must be weird not to be able to submit to your own contest.

(you could still create stuff, submit stuff, post stuff, get feedback
and just refrain from sending your stuff to the judges)

?

anyway, I would hope that we don't suck all the fun
out of this before it even starts.

that would suck.


bj

it is good that you/we are talking about ethics. however - there's a time that we need to know how to enjoy it.

i don't see a problem. i don't see any problem. the design of the t-shirt is not going to bring a contract. job. fame.

i don't care if a short cap, moderator... - is going to take part of the contest. and i'm not going to think that there's a "conspiracy".....

to wit: this place, Typophile, is really great. so - enjoy. be happy. draw. enjoy. read. enjoy. write. enjoy. eat. enjoy. design. enjoy.





David Hamuel

> Yves, I wouldn't worry about it - I'm pretty sure we're talking about Joe and I here. (We'd be the only ones able to tamper with the contest & voting, if that were in our character.)

You've all made good points

> i'm not going to think that there's a "conspiracy".

Just to be clear, me neither. When it comes to Typophile, I have faith in Jared and Joe, otherwise I would mind that they are the de facto "kings" here*. But you can be sure somebody will complain (probably right here on Typophile) and create malaise. And again, for what real gain?

* http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/30/6294.html

As for the "just have fun" thing, I guess there are different ways of having fun. Some people can have fun just organizing something like this and seeing it come through so well (and I suspect J&J did enjoy that aspect). You can't eat your cake and have it too. Sometimes, you can even enjoy just looking at how well the cake is made and how other people are so enjoying it.

hhp