ER

And more Cats?
In the US, I think this is more expressive than yours?
Thank you for Exchanging Flowers Not Fire

Type is weak and I'm not sure what bugs have to do with AIDS so no, I can't say I think much of it. Plus the weird chopped off sub-saharan Africa fails to connect with the shape that most of us associate with Africa.

What does this have to do w/the US election anyway?

But yeah, VOTE! Unless you're an evangelical in which case, STAY HOME (and deny that you use meth and frequent gay prostitutes, GOD I'm loving that story)!

Patty,
It's a rotting steak in the shape of Africa. A continent disintegrating in front of our eyes with flies flying around.

Tell me what you really think next time!

Hey, sorry. It's late. I didn't see the steak and also don't see what steak has to do with Africa or AIDS.

Maybe the copy should reference the rotting meat. Otherwise it seems like a stretch to me.

and Aziz - again - sorry about what my country did to your country.

Patty is right, the metaphor is mixed and is at odds with the copy. It has no call to action, there is a piece of information that on its own does not offer any answer (however small and insignificant), nor does it appeal for any assistance. The illustration isn't of a rotting steak, it seems fresh, why are there bites taken out of the uncooked meat – what does that say about aids or the number of casualties? Mozambique seems to have a Mickey Mouse shape chopped out of it. Some of the copy is superfluous, my feeling is that the headline message should reveal its meaning in as few words as necessary, it could read "…than the total casualties in all wars…", for example.
Tim

> and Aziz - again - sorry about what my country did to your country.
Well, we have to thank the US for blowing Saddam then bursting him,
but, we have to blame this very US for pulling him out of the hole!

> Over the next decade, AIDS will kill more people in sub-Saharan Africa than the total number of casualties lost in all the wars in the 20 century combined.

Over the next decade, Democracy will kill more people in Iraq than the total number of casualties lost in all the 3 Gulf wars combined.
Sadly, Iraq has been under systematic destruction for decades...

By the way, did you hear the story of the 2 Cats and the Monkey?
This story was set in my early education. Here it goes:
Two cats found a piece of food , but failed to share it. So, they went to the monkey to judge between them...
More than willing to help, the monkey divided the piece of food into 2 parts deliberately making one slightly bigger the other.
Raising his hands with the 2 halves, the Monkey said:
"Look! This is not fair, they should be equal".
So, he bit the bigger part deliberately making it slightly smaller than the other...
Again he raised his hands with the 2 pieces and said:
"Look! This is not fair, they should be equal".
In this way, the Monkey went over the piece of food leaving the 2 cats looking at each other.
__________________________________
Justice of the Monkey?!

What's the US election connection again?
Is the point to better manage the rotting of Africa?

Anyway:
The meat thing only works with respect to the shape of the continent, nothing else. One would naturally ask: How do I save this meat? Aha, by putting it in the fridge! So wait, does that mean we're supposed to cryogenically freeze Africa until a cure for AIDS is found? That can't be it - that would cost money. The only other thing would be to just eat the whole thing up right now, enslaving its population and pillaging its natural resources! Wait, we're already doing that...

And the type is way too cold.

--

I'm sure you can do better, since your heart is in the right place.

hhp

My meagor 2 cents worth as a non-illustrator:

I did not see the meat or, even now knowing, see it as rotting. The flies just look confusing. They make me think of something like killer bees or malaria or some agricultural problem. AIDS doesn't even begin to show without the text. You may need some human imagery--perhaps people partially hidden behind the African continent to show they are forgotten or diminished from western view. AIDS strikes me as more personal a problem than a clinical looking drawing of a map can portray.

ChrisL

Along Patty's sentiment about the election, maybe your copy should read:

"Beat the Bushes, not the bushman" ;-)

ChrisL

Tough crowd, tough crowd!

Hey, since I ride the fence between illustration and design, I'm always interested in what the two camps think of imagery. The image was selected for the American Illustration Annual book this year. I put the poster up on an illustrator's blog site and it read VERY CLEARLY to everyone, and was liked very much. But, what do illustrator's know anyways.........right?

Thanks for the feedback, I like hearing other points of views. You can check out what artists thought about the image by going here:

http://www.drawger.com/edel/?section=comments&article_id=1660

I got the meat, I got the flies, but the type didn't read as one single coherent sentence to me. I would change the copy, and make it refer to the rotting meat analogy.

Right now it looks like "Hey, that's a picture of Africa... and wait, it's a steak too" when it should be "Hey, that's a picture of a steak... and wait, it's in the shape of Africa".

- Lex

I got the steak first thing. Type second. Flies last. Maybe swing the meat just a little more to the steak side, play down the lines between countries?

I think it's a poignent illustration devoid of humanity, it's also a little stale. This guy got it right...

__________
Hiro

Vultures. Instead of flies.
and give me your fokking money!

"smacks of sarcasm"??

Wow...really tough crowd, tough crowd. No respect....no respect.

Illustrators? Are they like photographers? "Nice color & composition!"
Content anyone?

hhp

But one of the comments on that blog entry you link to call you a "genius". It's no wonder you find Typophile a "tough crowd" when you don't get gushing hyperbole like that.
None of the comments on that blog entry actually explained what it was you think they read VERY CLEARLY. They said they liked it and thought it was clever but neither you nor they have explained why it is 'clever' or relevant to AIDS in Africa (as opposed to any of Africa's other problems).

Even if the rotting steak image is perfect for the poster/campaign, (I agree with timd that) the meat in your illustration looks fresh (etc. etc. heckle heckle heckle).

One of the largest problems in the areas of Africa struggling most with the AIDS epidemic is a lack of (sex) education – there is still a common belief that sex with a virgin will cure a man of HIV. Once that problem is addressed, then they can start to think about how they would like their steak.

I really wish I liked the poster just so I could leave a post that said.

"Well Done".

Honest opinion - I think the meat and flies are well executed, but taking the three 'bites' out of the meat makes it less Africa like. Also it's not obviously rotting - the flies would be attracted to a nice fresh cut of meat too, no? Type is not particularly interesting - seems odd that it was posted to typophile and the "general discussion" area in particular.

In the end I think it's an idea/metaphor that almost, but doesn't quite work, and you're forcing it. You could keep plugging away but my advice would be to ditch it and come up with a better idea. Back to the drawing board I think. ;-)

Hiro, I think you should learn how to spell poignant before you unleash the word in forums like this one. Also look up in a dictionary how it might relate to humanity.

Hrant, in terms of content, illustrators are generally not like photographers and I'm sure you're just being as provocative as usual.

ER it doesn't suprise me at all that this image reads clearly to an illustration crowd and not-at-all to a typography forum, so I find myself agreeing with Simon. Although I like the poster visually and it's metaphors 'read' to me, in spite of it's selection for the Illustration Annual (congratulations), the ideas behind it are incorrect. If the target of your poster was say, food hygiene rather than sexual behaviour, you'd have nailed it.

As someone looking on from outside the US, I admire your call to vote.

Ben, I'm glad to hear you have a problem with photographers too... :-)

But come on, promoting democracy isn't exactly
counter-culture these days. Even the prez does it.

hhp

Edel, you might be interested in looking at the posters of Christos Tsolerides, who used to posted on Typophile. I thought he was able to use type and illustration together in a really strong way.

Here is one of the links: http://typophile.com/node/4982

If you click on his name and then 'track' you will see a bunch of others.

I think your illustration here is striking and well executed, but could be better focused, and the typography stronger.

William, thanks for reminding me/us of Christos. Anybody interested in typographically-sophisticated poster design would do well to hit "track" on his profile and peruse the hell out of his threads.

hhp

Just dropped off my ballot at the postoffice.

Edel, I think your work is excellent. Thoughtful and well executed. This is why you are getting the big covers and recognition.

However, in this case, i think you have a good idea but the execution is not on par with your other work. I will try to make my criticism as constructive as possible.

1. Type. It doesn't feel integrated with the concept. Just words typed on a page. I was looking at the Defiance poster on your site. Much better. The words fit in the soldiers ribbons and match the style. Somehow the type should be more integrated in the concept here, or should just be a caption below it. The picture should have it's own impact. It's a little bit of show and tell as is.

2. Empahsis. All the elements are emphasized the same. OK africa is red. But type, flies and Africa are all flat. Maybe what I'm saying is that they're all at the same depth of field. I picture the flies closer and farther to the viewer. Maybe. It could just use more graphic impact. Are you emphasising the rotting meat or the nasty flies all over it? Neither at the moment.

3. The steak. I think the shape of africa is iconic enough without country lines. They distract from the rotteness of the meat. Maybe simplify the continent shape (no bites?) and use the space to make it more rotten and meaty (introduce grey into the meat/blood juice?).

4. Style. It seems too sterile to be rotting. I think it needs more texture like some of your other pieces.

Thanks for your involvement at typophile.
Hope that was helpful.

Randy

ER, you already have my respect. Your graphic style has attitude and your work has a nice edge to it.

Ben_zene, go away - you're making me drowsy.

_________
Hiro

ditto what randy said. he always has a way of putting everything together so succicintly. i think the main problem i have is that you can't really tell the steak is rotting, which your concept is really based on. this has to do with the color and the apparent firmness of the steak. if it were me the color would be a wash of deep red with some grey-green tainting portions of it and the steak looking considerably more mushy. but then again, i ain't no illustrator...

Side note to Patty:

It is unfortunate (or perhaps fortunate depending on your point of view) when a Christian leader is exposed to be a hypocrite of the highest order. It is my belief that we are all hypocrites in the deepest sense. Wherever you set the bar, you can never get it low enough to clear it yourself. Our own words are more than enough to condemn us. I know this is true in my case.

Randy

>we are all hypocrites in the deepest sense

Huh?

A gay-bashing minister who frequented a gay prostitute while gay-bashing?

Doesn't he make the most of us look like triflers in hypocracy?

I mean that guy is a champion. A winner of this year's Nobel prize for hypocracy--and he had a lot of competition! A special medal for lying to the cameras. A pulpit Pulitzer for pretentiousness in Church. A special citation for deviousness before the masses.

I'd better stop. Like Patty, I'm enjoying this way too much. It's a sin. But not hypocracy.

We are well on our way to 511 posts. Remember my Communication Arts cover from back in May? Keep it coming.... let's try to top that one.

No sweat Edel, in a day or 2 you will be at the top of the Hot list. Weekends are slow though but it will pick up on Monday :-)

ChrisL

Hiro, I think you should learn how to spell poignant before you unleash the word in forums like this one
Ben: It looks like you've got a spelling problem too: in spite of it’s selection for the Illustration I think you mean "its" selection.

Hey, Chris, well, let me try something. This was at the point with the CA cover where I tried to explain my work. It then set off a historic chain reaction of events.

By the way, Chris, hrant, Hunt, Lore, West, all veterans of the CA cover thread - the image has gotten traction. It's in the current CA design annual. Yes, sounds corrupt, but the jury was neutral I suppose. Nine judges from Design firms and such around the world picked it as one of the best images of the year. But, what do they know...

Getting back to this one. Thanks (most of you) for all the advice. That feller Randy is one cool cat. Gives some very nice thought out info. Hrant is one cool cat too, in some other ways (i.e. sticking to the script) I kid Hrant, chill.

About the image, my thinking. I'm tired of little red ribbons and soft statements about helping this and that. I wanted something raw to get people's attention. I wanted it to be some street thing, not all sophisticated and fancy typework and all. I felt like an over designed poster just didn't work for this. I didn't want to render a grey steak or juice or whatever. Just a red flat silk-screened image. bam. there it is. I'm tired of fanciness. While we sit here on a forum discussing x-heights, Africa is rotting away and disappearing, why be all fancy with the cool fonts and the this and the that? Just put an image down and stick some text on it. period.

Bring it on....

Oh, and if you know what font I used, tell me, cause I was angry when I did that and I have no clue.

Looks like Futura to me.

- Lex

>We are well on our way to 511 posts.

Unless someone mentions Fidel's Rolex, I think this will hit 45 and be done.

It was Che who was rumored to have a Rolex, not Fidel. Does anybody check their facts here before just typing something in?

Fair cop, Lore; hoisted by my own petard. Apostrophes aren't spelling so much as punctuation, but I won't quibble.

Hiro, you're just backtracking totally from that earlier post. Either you mean to crit the guy (and not in a constructive way) or you mean to praise him (faintly); which is it?

As for you have a problem with photographers too. Heh. I've briefed both kinds, but I've never yet had a photographer get all uh, conceptual on me. They're generally happier just pointing and clicking. Illustrators (in my experience) agonise about narrative content, the 'truth of the medium' and contextual reading, so yes, I think they actually do more in terms of content.

What your president promotes is not what the rest of us call democracy. If you can't vote, riot.

>I wanted it to be some street thing, not all sophisticated and fancy typework and all.

Ok, NOW you've done it, Edel.

What a lame excuse for sloppy typography.

Futura is a very sophisticated font. If you wanted 'street' you should have spray painted it or hand written it with chalk.

And how is centering the text--which makes it less readable here--very 'street'? And does that irregular leading make it agressively 'street'? And does the type enhance the impact of the illustration, or just wander around?

Oh, and are street thugs able to draw illustrations for the New York Times? Is your thoughtful concept and polished drawing very 'street'? Give me a break.

Remember my Communication Arts cover from back in May?
But Edel darling...how could we possibly forget?
Check out http://typophile.com/node/28873

what do you guys think of this poster

the image has gotten traction. It’s in the current CA design annual. Yes, sounds corrupt, but the jury was neutral I suppose. Nine judges from Design firms and such around the world picked it as one of the best images of the year. But, what do they know…

well remind me not to offer criticism next time you ask what we think...

> If you can’t vote, riot.

If you can vote, don't.

hhp

Mr. Hunt,
You are mixing images there sir. The "poster" is this thread, which I definitely asked your input on.

The Che cover is a different matter and it is what I spoke about being in an annual. I did not ask for input on that image myself. It was put up by crazy machine gun cat man Eric West.

You're cutting and pasting text, and confusing things. "this poster" and "image in design annual" are two separate images. Got it? Word jumbling is annoying.

I am always interested on what you guys have to say about anything I put up.

So what brand of watch does Fidel wear?

You’re cutting and pasting text, and confusing things.

that's what i get for scanning. honest mistake. all apologies. back to your regularly scheduled banter...

Fidel's watch? Probably the one he took from my father when we left the country. I'll have to ask my dad what brand it was.

>>"Illustrators? Are they like photographers? “Nice color & composition! Content anyone?"

Hrant, if you knew anything about illustration at all, you'd realize we spend most of our time thinking about content.

There's a lot of anger at other artistic fields here at Typophile guys. Except for "Randy", he's cool. And Paul Hunt, nice hat, always steady.

>There’s a lot of anger at other artistic fields here at Typophile guys

Edel, Hrant is one of a kind. It would be wildly off the mark to assume that other regulars here share his views on any subject.

I love good illustration, including yours. But this one has problems...

>There’s a lot of anger at other artistic fields here at Typophile guys.

Looking for anger - came to the wrong place. Try posting the picture on a vegan blog or a butchers forum. ;-)

Ben, Edel: So I guess my question mark(s) counted for nothing. Illustration involves making things yourself, so naturally one needs that rare commodity, Thought. But you'd be forgiven for thinking otherwise upon reading that blog. On the other hand I guess Typophile is one of a kind: we socialize lucha libre style.

Anger, at artists? I for one cannot get angry at children.
Photography, art? If you think about it, it's entertainment.

hhp

Fidel's watch: don't know the brand, but it seems to be
running on Energizer. May he outlive another 9 puppets.

hhp

Hrant,
I know you have problems with the individual. Yes. The individual is the source of all problems in the world. We've been there.

The world is made up of individuals, expressing themselves, it's how I like it. I love manifestations of individual artists expressing themselves. We differ on that A LOT. Been there, I know.

Sorry about the quotes, I don't know Randy. I'll take them out!

>>"Just make sure not to actually submit that illustration anywhere."

That illustration WAS submitted and accepted as one of the best pieces of the year into the American Illustration Annual. Probably the top illustration book. Judged by a pretty decent panel I would say.

I'll take your recommendations. Like I said, I'm trying to figure out the differences between these fields. I'm trying to bring them together. Why one field thinks it's great, and another thinks it's garbage.

Thanks.

So far it seems to read like this:

You ask people what they think.
They tell you what they think.
You tell them that the image was selected for the American Illustration Annual book this year and then adopt a passive-aggressive tone with "what do illustrators know anyway ... right?".
People raise issues with the image that fail to get a response even when the same issues keep cropping up:
What do rotting meat or flies say about AIDS in Africa or about the West's neglect of the third world?

This is not because we don't "get it" – because we can't get past our "1+1=2" mentality – this is not an "Artists" vs. "Designers" thing as you continue to assert, this is about communication.

The word or image of meat is a heavily loaded metaphor that seems out of place here, and not in an intellectually provocative way.

If you intend to communicate (even part) of a complex problem with an image, you should be concerned about the fact that it seems to have caused confusion here, a forum for people who (often) work in the same field as you – 2D communication designed for print or screen.
You have also jumped to the conclusion that everyone here is a "designer" and therefore, in your view, not an "artist". Aside for the fact that there are many "artists" and non-typographers here, where is the art/design line drawn? I certainly think that it's more blurred than you are making out.

Illustration can offer a means to communicate without language barriers. This is a major strength, but also a responsibility when dealing with sensitive (and enormous) issues such as this.

Nobody likse to have their work unfairly criticised and it's clear that you think this is the case here, but can you at least drop the "us and them" attitude toward Typophile users – you are creating divisions that needn't exist.

> The individual is the source of all problems in the world.

Edel, this isn't that blog - please get serious.

The individual is not even a problem - in fact it is fully half the solution.
The problem is the imbalance: in your attitude, in your society.

> That illustration WAS submitted and accepted as one of the
> best pieces of the year into the American Illustration Annual.

So now you're in a position to decide whom to take more seriously.
And don't come back with some diplomatic, relativist "they're both
equally useful" claptrap. Everybody is always at least somewhat
wrong about anything. And equality is death.

hhp

Hrant, the way you are able to explain things. Man, you're a genius!

Phew, things are moving fast here. Edel, my anger was provoked by your seemingly flippant remark about taking an image and putting text on it, not because the text was badly set (there are enough examples of really poor setting, yours doesn't sneak in the top 100) but because you seemed to be treating the subject with less respect than it deserves, which puzzles me given your obvious passion. If your purpose was to create discussion of a serious subject by creating a thought-provoking image, I am afraid my initial reaction remains the same – the image misses the mark, unfortunately the drawback of emotional responses is that they are not always successful.

>Why one field thinks it’s great, and another thinks it’s garbage.
As an illustration I don't think it is garbage, just not the best solution. The lack of discussion here about the actual problem bears witness to that (not that I really expected it, part of the problem is that is so large that the individual is overwhelmed by it).

As for the typographers versus illustrators thing it seems to me you are seeing something that doesn't exist, nearly all of us on these forums have at some time or another worked with illustrators (or even as illustrators), I have never had a situation that led to duelling with scalpels behind the bike sheds:)

Tim

I'm still trying to figure out how Hrant corrects someone whey they call him a genius. Waiting.....

Ed,

What do you think of this shirt?

http://www.veer.com/products/merchdetail.aspx?image=VPR0001351

Cheers, Si

The "genius" thing is obviously just a joke now, I think you may be in for a long wait ...

Edel, I could swear we once established that you're not half your age.

hhp

Sii

There's also this:

http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/design-is-just-making-things-line-up

Who is Ed?

this thread is kinda hilarious actually.

oh i forgot to mention... comparing yourself to basquiat? pulease. PUHLEASE.

Yeah, you're regular pollack! Artistic geniuses don't care about typesetting. (another great tshirt design, threadless here i come!)

Yeole,
Glad I could make you smile... I like entertaining children.

"I agree that the anonimity of online forums can allow people to get out of hand"
-Yusef Cole

Man, get a grip. You have good work, you could probably chill a bit.

i also think you have good work man. but i think the comparison is a bit of a stretch... eh? anyway let's let sleeping threads lie.

Yusef,
I would never dare 'compare' myself to Basquiat or many other artists. I simply mentioned a well known artist that people might recognize to try and explain a point.

I also never called myself a 'genius'.

The reason why people may hesitate to put their work up here in Typophile is that as soon as that happens people start taking everything out of context, as you have. All of a sudden one is pictured as a guy that thinks he's GOD.
I am just trying to figure out why people see things differently. Why one person gets something right away and another person does not. It's always intrigued me.

I'll keep working to try and make sense to everyone.

Typophile exists because people put their work up.
But you have to put your work up for reasons other than garnering praise.

hhp

Hrant,
I like to hear all sorts of comments. As a matter of fact, I put another poster up in the design section that has been liked and it's annoying me. Go trash it, I want your input.

Damit Edel! I like that F@#$%& Military Intelligence poster! So THERE!!! That one works, this one doesn't. Grrrrr

ChrisL

"Why one person gets something right away and another person does not"

Please explain to us all what we are missing – to help us "get it".
You have been repeatedly asked to explain how the rotten meat and flies says something about the AIDS epidemic in Africa. This poster is exceptional enough to have been chosen for that illustration annual you mentioned, it must be strong enough to survive a little probing.

I know the message you are trying to communicate, but I need help in understanding in how this poster helps achieve your aim.

My fear – and I would like to be proved wrong – is that while at first it seems like a clever visual trick ... aah yes, Africa is shaped a little like a steak ... when you think about it (etc.)
But then ... if you ask yourself "why?" it seems to unravel.
What connotations does meat already have?
meat is murder.
one man's meat is another man's poison.
treating people like meat.
meat as metaphor for greed and/or violence
meat as muscle or strength.
a "meat-market".
and so on.

When you work with loaded material you have the opportunity to exploit the pre-existing semiology, or to play off it in new and exciting ways. I'm not sure that your use of meat falls into either category (other comments in this thread have offered many explanations why, I won't go over them).

I know that the larger context of the poster is the West's neglect of the third world but you specifically focus on AIDS and that is where I see the problem between text and image in your poster.

The text says AIDS is a major problem in Africa (this is an awful truth)
The image possibly says "Africa is rotting" (or "Africa is rotten" which clearly problematic)
It could obviously say many other things (some have been previously suggested) and I hope you can explain the alternative reading that links it to AIDS and clear this up once and for all.

I also think that, with the exception of a couple of comments, people here have been polite and courteous in the face of your resistance to delve deeper into the strengths and weaknesses of this piece of work that you put up for critique.
You seem to have focussed on the fact that people don't like the work, rather than why they don't like it.

The reason why people may hesitate to put their work up here in Typophile is that as soon as that happens people start taking everything out of context (...)

Well, in my [limited] experience this tends to happen almost everywhere.

I must confess that I have skipped a few posts here and there when comments started to go off-topic or become personal attacks, but can I ask you in earnest what your original goal with this thread was? Did you want honest criticism of your work or did you just want to show people something you've done?

I am reminded of a proverb: "It is not the same to talk of bulls as to be in the bullring."

I have skipped a few posts
lol! I think this begs for a

Synopsis:
A tale of rolex, cats, Armenian genocide and ipods

May 2006 Erik West starts thread http://typophile.com/node/20337 showing a CA cover made by Edel Rodrigues. Rapture ensues.
Everything going well (for typophile standards) until ER intercepts the conversation, 511 posts later he declares the thread dead by slow decay.
November 2006: ER has an unfinished business...

Great work lore.

One problem. Rodriguez with a "z" :-)

Dear Mr. Accident,

I think I've explained quite a bit. I'll get to all your questions soon. There are about 20 people here with 10 questions each. I am a family man with many priorities to deal with in one day. A priority that is not high on my list is to promptly explain anything to "An Accident".

I will answer all your "probing", just give me some time please.