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I was at BN tonight, and I picked up the most recent issue of CA. Now I really like CA, so don't think I'm knocking it. See cover. I'd like to hear thoughts on the illlustration, whether it's implied meaning (commercialization/exploitation) could have been expressed with more clarity and sophistication. My thoughts after a few seconds were, the illustration was repeating itself multiple times over, given the audience (us) the point would be made immediately w/o the swoosh or 'pod buds. IMHO
What a load of tripe. George Lois was the last designer to create a magazine cover worth shit. Communication Arts is just another grand excuse for "succesful" designers to congratulate each other for being so brilliant.
And Che Guevera was a commie and deserved his end. Cuba could sink into the sea and nobody would shed a tear. We should have blown the place to pieces when we had it surrounded.
Grumpy, there have been magazine designers since George Lois who have done some great work, like Neville Brody of course. the world doesn't end on your side of the "pond", as you like to call it. And as for your thoughts on Cuba... what on earth is your problem?
Paul D Hunt, it's nice to know you're trying to keep things well-mannered, but where were you when Fontplayer was spouting off his homophobic rubbish a few months ago? I'd hate to think you only apply the rules when you feel like it.
Either you don't understand the meaning of the word homophobic, or, well, I guess that about sums it up. You read into it what you wanted to read, I guess.
But I know I helped use up everyone's patience, to Grumpy's detriment. When even I find him over the top, I think Paul is justified in his warnings.
Nigella, if you took the time to read the board a bit more more you would see that Paul has decided to be more active & that he thought about & talked to us before he did - which is bloody nice. And if I not mistaken Fontplayer repented. Your comments about Grumpy I will fail to be censorious about. It appears that Grummpy has no pond, location or a valid identity. So as far as I am concerned he has no valid point of view either. Paul, what's the policy on typophile? I thought that you couldn't anonymous like Grumps. Can we just toss him overboard?
YEEEEHAAA!!! Bring on the negativity!!! Cant we just stop!!! Holy Moley!!! Everytime I log in, were having a retread of the same old same old. It's really getting to the point… where I think people are LOOKING/TWISTING OTHER PEOPLES THOUGHTS for things to rag on them about, maliciously…seriously. We don't need it here. It doesn't foster anything positive, nor does it make me want to 'collaborate.'
I’m sorry Yves, I was referring to the content of a post rather than any actual tech problem. Unless You’ve invented a stupidofilter, that is.
ƒ
Fredrik
Were you refering to something in this thread? Please share.
Gerald,
Well, i guess I must explain my actions. I have very little confidence in myself as a designer, and I was simply posting to see if any of my observations had validity. Ok? Thanks.
Eric
Not sure what just happened here. Didn't intend to rankle you, thought it an innocent question actually. I do like the cat!!!
Yeah, observations always have validity. And there is no reason not to share them. But in a public forum no reason to expect just a pat on the back.
Maybe this forum should not be sub-titled "Anything goes." Reads like an invitation to head-bashing.
Gerald
Gerald,
I apologize, I'm Just a little annoyed that this thread got hijacked, and turned into hate-stew. I wasn't expecting a pat on the back, I was looking for opinions.
I'm just out of school and most of the people i went with couldn't care less about design 'off the clock.' I, on the other hand, do. And this, Typophile, is the ONLY place at all I have to talk about type/design with anyone. And, you could be completely right, and I could've just ignored it. It didn't really turn into any deep discussion.,
Eric
Yeah, I like your cat too!
But to get back to the point of your post - the swoosh, the iconic earbuds & che are all now ubiquitous parts of pop culture no matter when where or why they came from to begin with. Don't like it? - too bad & too late. So really, they are a kind of pop trifecta. The superimposition of two white marks over che gives the impression of complete pop saturation - or corruption - depending on where you stand. Anything less would fail to beat us senseless.
“Who wins the cliche contest for notable faces? Marylin Monroe, Che, Elvis, or Mona Lisa?”
This conversation reminds me of Ron English's 'Popaganda' painting (semi-NSFW if your bosses are uptight).
Anybody else read this? I really like the quote about Che throwing Piñera's work on the floor. I can't decide whether to wear my Che shirt or my Jerry Falwell shirt today.
That's quite the article, Robert. Thanks for posting it.
I thought the synopsis couldn't have been written any better: The real lesson gained [...] is embedded in the final irony of the capitalist exploitation of a communist icon. In its capitalist incarnation, the image, ironically, becomes heroic, unassailable: the essence of idealism and socialist revolution. What gets lost is the real Che Guevera—the one behind the photograph.
And Eric, just for the record, that cat rocks!
One of our local non-profit stores got sued by "Fashion Victim" the new owners of the Che photographic image. I googled and found this article:
http://thefrontweekly.com/print/36
An excerpt:
Fashion Victim is suing Northern Sun Merchandising of Minneapolis, which has been peddling Guevara t-shirts for the past 25 years. Fashion Victim supposedly bought the rights to the famous image of Guevara from the photographer Alberto Korda in 2002, ignoring the fact that the image circulated freely in the public domain for decades and that the familiar two-toned stencil-like version of Korda's photograph wasn't created by Korda but instead by Irish artist Jim Fitzpatrick. The irony here, as a recent Utne Reader article points out, is that Fashion Victim manufactures its T-shirts in Honduras, a country that produces most of its exported clothing in sweatshops.
"I believe it’s standard squadie practice to wear an expensive watch - it comes in handy for bartering or when captured by a farmer"
I think it has more to do with Guevera's upper bourgeoisie status and that he was a brand whore who probably *would* have his corpse stripped of an iPod and Bluetooth Razr and Airs today. I rather doubt that he doled out spendy branded watches to his cadres, just in case of capture.
And where does the Rolex story come from anyway? Where is the source? I don't believe it for a second, not that I think it impossible but because spreading the rumour is (or was at the time) too bloody convenient. I can't believe people don't question things before taking them for granted, it's so easy to spread this sort of stuff.
Serious, Chris, I had to save the image because it's too brilliant.
"And where does the Rolex story come from anyway? Where is the source?"
What, you want me to do your reading for you? You know, there's this thing called the Internet, and on it you can look things up in like two seconds, even if you're allergic to books.
For instance, if you typed "che" and "rolex" into one of the windows at the top of your browser, right now--or, better, maybe before you'd posted--you'd get about a zillion hits referencing the fact that Che was wearing one and that Felix Rodriguez, the CIA agent I referred to, took it and made a point of showing it off in years after. Several of the top hits at Google are from communist/socialist sources, just in case you find anything else ideologically suspect.
And you're welcome.
And where does the Rolex story come from anyway? Where is the source? I don’t believe it for a second, not that I think it impossible but because spreading the rumour is (or was at the time) too bloody convenient. I can’t believe people don’t question things before taking them for granted, it’s so easy to spread this sort of stuff.
Is it too bloody convenient or are your just perturbed someone has an opposing view?
bloody hostile is where this is going
how does anyone know ANYTHING about Che? He is either deified or villified. None here was a guerella fighter with him. We can't really say what was and what wasnt. That said, i'm inclined to believe either story based on that. I guarantee there is misinformation on both sides.
An aside:
My brothers life long friend in Phoenix was a Green Beret in Colombia and Bolivia in the 60s and was on the team that took Che down.
One time I complained to him about Rage Against the Machine having Che stenciled on their amps while playing a Free Tibet concert and he told me the story and then told me he loved Rage Against the Machine!
It's a strangely spherical world…
peace
Even Marx knew that communism was a dumb idea, but that didn't stop Castro and Guevera and Stalin and Lenin from making it their system of dictatorship. Strong nations are built, like the United States, on a foundation of capitalism and military strength.
Its not surprising that Guevera would have a Rolex: it's always the pigs who find the truffles.
Whew, Thanks Tiff.
Ironic though, we're talking about a time when the accuracy and dependability of a Rolex was far more useful to the left than the right. And now, we're talking about a time when earphones and running shoes are much more useful to the right than the left. A stencil for all seasons.
Eric: I think the topic was really interesting and I know how you feel about seeing your thread being hijacked. I remember how it felt when I asked for help regarding a book on gay parades and I had to read some really useless comments on how people felt about gays, which it wasn't really what I had asked. I didn't feel really bad because there were still loads of useful suggestions but still, it was a drag. I don't know but once you have start posted your thing, it's not something you can control so I hope you are not taking it too personal, I don't think anyone wanted to sabotage you. Also I don't really care about what people think about Che Guevara (it's not something I need or wish to control) and what I meant was exactly that there is misinformation on both sides (assuming there are only 2 sides).
I suspect that if I had answered "oh really? Che had a rolex??? Wow!" everyone would have been happier but hey, people don't always say what you want to hear... Well, I hope you feel better today. This was a particularly unfortunate thread that started going wrong the minute psycho-grumpy walked in. In fact I am inclined to think that grumpy and google-boy RNLee are the same person. Just a feeling...but yeah, I think the CA cover was interesting in a weird way...it looks almost like they did this as a joke and then found no use for it. Then they decided to publish an article on Cuban Design and they remembered they had something vaguely Cuban stashed in some drawer and the cover was ready. They forgot to add the rolex though...tsk...tsk...tsk...
Now, after all that I really need to go on a Typophile detox for a while.
Anyway, if you want my opinion, I'm tired of seeing cultural icons abused by designers.
It's not that I have no sense of humour, but I tend to be more and more annoyed to see people targeting a single individual. And I don't care if it's a publically perceived "evil" figure. I just dislike it.
In my opinion, Chris post was the most thoughtful and balanced, and of course it reflected the truth about the perception people tend to have. The Beatles, for example, as many people in the 1960s and 1970s, developed a fascination for eastern spirituality, which rarely led them to deepen their search. This is probably true of any generation. Any process of insight is costly. It seems the majority of people prefer to use things at a very superficial level, especially as we are tempted to spend a lot of idle hours on the web.
Edel, I have spent a lot of years talking to people of differing political opinions, including on this forum. I am struck that people are amazingly impervious to facts when it comes to politics. Politics is a realm where people are vulnerable to particularly irrational thinking. 'Are you on the side of the good guys?' seems to be the main question.
If it were more rational people would be asking 'What social problems are to be solved?' and 'What are the best solutions?' The question of parties and personalities would come after you have some answers to those questions. But unfortunately, that's not the way it is.
Symbolic posturing, as you satirize in your 'Che' picture, seems to be the most pervasive form of political communication.
Nigella: I enjoy looking at photos, and I take a lot of them myself. But there's an aspect to photography, arguably its central aspect, that's a myth: its alleged ability to "capture the moment", to reflect Life, or whatnot, which is completely a self-validating modern illusion. If you look to the early discourse concerning the "existential fallacy" of photography, before the time when it started making enough money for enough people that people started thinking "well, OK, what the hell", you will find some lucid arguments of why this particular technology is essentially entertainment. When we try to get closer to Life by increasing CCD resolution for example, we're entirely missing the point.
You could say that photography is too Modernist to really be humanly relevant.
hhp
Funny, you must be reading my mind, I'm sitting here chowing on a pizza and watching a football game. France 0 Switzerland 0. Great game, and great pizza.
Don't think I got an answer though, still wondering why you thought he was wearing such a "great shirt". Grew up around folks with such lofty language and ideals. Saw them really destroy a homeland and drive the human will for life and fun to the ground. So, yes, give me pizza and football, such joy. Gooooooaaaaaal!!
er
The shirt was great because he meant it. If you can't/won't die for a good cause, it's still better than ignoring it, and certainly better than apologism for treating your fellow humans like dirt. Nevermind actually voting for a war criminal for president. Or really, voting at all in such a rigged system.
The posers you complain about do exist, but they're really no different than the ones brought up to think "nuke 'em"! Among the affluent masses, politics is subject to fashion just like anything else, and different people go different directions. But alongside those peons there exist truly concerned people, and ignoring that is a self-serving, weak escape from personal responsability.
--
I'm not reading your mind, I'm describing what I see around me,
of which you're more a part than I am. On the other hand, I was
thinking of the football with the funny ball, so luckily for you
you're not at the heart of it.
When you watch Brazil play, think of their slums, and what kinds
of things have caused them to exist and persist... y ¡buen provecho!
hhp
"The posers you complain about do exist, but they’re really no different than the ones brought up to think “nuke ‘em”! Among the affluent masses, politics is subject to fashion just like anything else, and different people go different directions."
This is what I was trying to say. That, in the end, it's all just the same. I could have done a blank cover, or an Ampersand with earphones! But this is how I thought it would best be said.
I still feel that an attempt at democracy and people speaking out is the best we can do. You say they vote for a war criminal, yet you forget the other half that didn't.
And I also watch the football with the funny ball. Now really, in your argument about the masses is there such a difference between the two. It's still a bunch of folks sitting around watching a ball. You will tell me that soccer fans are just a higher being. You make distinctions that just benefit what you like. The round ball is good. The BBC is great, except for the Irish stories. Again, it's all the same.
When I watch Brazil play, yes, I think of the slums, and what causes them. But I grew up in a slum and something caused that too, called Communism. What slum did you grow up in exactly?
There's a whole world of slums, and making a living drawing type or writing stuff in a discussion group ain't doing a damn thing to solve them. So, I guess I'm realistic. Either join in and work for what you're so passionate about or just go about working for the man. But don't work for the man and wax poetically about the struggle. Join it.
And I like pictures.
I'm your alter ego, but hey, we can talk.
er
er
Hrant - You're right on the money (capitalist expression) about photography. I was a photojournalist for ten years and I know it's easier to mislead - intentionally or not - with pictures than with words. Until recently people found pictures more trustworthy than words, but digital has killed the illusion of photography's credibility. It used to be very easy to deify or demonize with one picture. I'm not so sure of that anymore.
Hrant's observation that the empire is crumbling is something I've felt for a long time.
Entropy is inevitable.
I look forward to the day that this empire breaks into smaller entities and California (or parts thereof) can be self-governing.
In the meantime I try to avoid prison, especially one of my own making…
peace
I have to say I can't remember what I "meant" by wearing the T-shirt. Even if it was an attempt to provoke, I certainly didn't and don't intend to "communicate" by wearing certain clothes.
Of course people interpret T-shirts in various ways, whether there's text on them or not. Those interpretations are sometimes interesting, often manipulable, occasionally dangerous. In this case, one would be forgiven for thinking I was a supporter of the Cuban Revolution. I'd heard, probably from the Guardian, about directors of French companies being barred from the USA if their company supplied spare parts to Cuban x-ray machines, and that pissed me off. I'd also heard, probably from Michael Moore, about the Cuban health service being far better than the USA's, and that pissed me off too. The American embarrassments of the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis seemed, inexcusably, to explain their isolation of Cuba. So I had a few things to talk about over a drink if someone approached me because of the shirt. But I was also well aware that I wasn't being particularly daring wearing the shirt. For a start, Massachusetts is not Miami. And the police normally let people wear stuff like that: getting arrested is unlikely. The biggest risk was probably that I might be thought of as silly.
Perhaps a couple of years before TypeCon 98, I'd turned up to the Royal Courts of Justices on the Strand to hear Helen Steel and David Morris (the McLibel two) defend themselves against McDonalds. I wore a shirt that said "It's time for all honest citizens to turn to crime". I rather liked the idea of the juxtaposition and thought I was being a bit daring. In the event... I felt like a teenage jerk and never wore the shirt again.
During the "smart sanctions" bombing of Iraq (1991-2003), bearing in mind a Jesus-themed T-shirt of Easter 1999, I told a friend I was thinking of having a T-shirt made up in that style but depicting Saddam Hussein instead of Che or Jesus. If asked, I'd perhaps have made some comment about supporting neither Saddam's murderous regime nor Clinton's. It could have inspired some interesting debates in pubs. But there would have been serious risks: my favourite café in Cardiff was run by a lovely Iraqi man (who was later to tell me that everyone in Baghdad was waiting eagerly for the Americans to arrive). Some other Iraqis, who helped me out when I urgently needed a car stored for a week, had several edgy rottweilers on their semi in Rumney. Provoking such people is not big or clever. The friend, who might himself have been interested in wearing a Gerry Adams themed shirt, strongly advised against the Saddam shirt.
After that I mostly lost interest in clothing that can easily be (mis)interpreted politically, apart from wearing a long black leather coat to ATypI in Leipzig. I checked with Adam Twardoch whether he thought it likely that it would be interpreted as a Nazi symbol. He reassured me it would not – however he still takes some pleasure in reminding me of my ridiculous outfit at that conference. Sadly I don't think it inspired any debates to rival those where the rehabilitation of blackletter is discussed.
Edited to change "interpreted" to "(mis)interpreted"
I look forward to the day that this empire breaks into smaller entities and California (or parts thereof) can be self-governing.
Viva Cascadia!
I fully intend on moving there once they gain their independence.
"Ah. C’mon. We don’t have to agree but we do need to get along."
It was a joke. Do I need to say something was a joke all the time around here or put in one of these :) silly things. California is a nice place, full of great people, who deserve their well earned independence. A place that picks a former body builder movie star as its leader should be an example for the entire world to follow. :) that, was a joke.
"CA vague LI cloudy FOR wispy NIA language
In some kind of genius way I can’t access does that make sense?"
Just mixing something Sorkin said before with CALIFORNIA. No genius, just messing. In Spanish there's a word, "joder", which is to joke, poke fun, because you like somebody. There's a lack of humor around here, so I'm just trying to lighten some of the existential talk.
lorp, thanks for the long explanation on the shirt, I'm sure everybody that wears one of those has a story. There's just a lot that people that wear these things need to know about what their unofficially backing. The free education in Cuba is not free. You work in the morning, on a field, picking potatoes, not for Cubans, but to export to Europe, then you go to school in the afternoon. They barely feed the students. The free health care is there if you can get a foreigner to send you the medicine you need and have a car to take you to Havana. The doctor that decides he's had enough can't leave the country, because the government owns your education. You know, because it was given to you for free. Marriages are split because one leaves and the doctor wife is forced to stay behind. I'd rather own my own education and do with it as I please, go to any country I choose.
And the police won't arrest you in Miami for wearing a Che shirt. They, like the Iraqis you mentioned, might just suggest it's not the smartest thing to walk around in one. You'd be surprised how many Iraqis, Cubans, and many of those "opressed" love America. With all its problems, its still a better option for them.
er
Edel. The "Ah c'mon" was me being a little sarcastic too. No, you don't need to be clear. There is a lot of negativity running around here lately and I am having a little trouble with it. I don't feel like I was mean. I was just asking, and since you say you were just joking then there isn't a problem. Not that there was a problem in the first place.
Which country directly witnessed the genocide of Hrant's people, driving them off their ancestral land (something you didn't suffer, in fact you gained back yours - be grateful, not snide) but now helps the guilty country cover it up? Which country helped the country where Hrant grew up become unsuitable for college education, causing him leave? Which country did Hrant adore as he was growing up, until he actually did grow up and saw what had really been happening, and what was going to keep happening more and faster? And which country is Hrant dreaming of leaving, if only that country would stop destroying the countries Hrant would want to move to? Your country is great for you. It kills and rapes for you. But it's not great for the rest of the world, including many who move to your country (who for some mysterious reason never get fully integrated). For millions of immigrants it's merely a lesser evil, and furthermore an evil that helped cause the evil back home.
hhp
Tyranny is an equal opportunity employer and has been for all of history. I often hear great praise heaped on my ancestral countryman Alexander the Great. They say he brought "civilization" to the world he conquered. That is a nice romantic notion a couple of thousand years after the fact. He was a bully and a marauder who conquered the world--meaning he was responsible for lots of killing while bringing "culture" as a gift to those he plundered. How was Alexander any better than the Ottoman Turks years later who conquered and enslaved Greece? No better, no worse. I am Greek and have heard many stories from my grandparents of Turkish tyranny heaped upon Greece. I will bet that there were similar stories during Alexander's time about him as well.
There have been villains from every corner of the world. For every villain killed, another rises to fill the void. Every power from the Egyptians enslaving their neighbors at the time of the Pharaohs to the Greeks, Romans, Turks, English, Spaniards, French, Dutch, Russians, and Americans have done deeds most foul. There is no place on this earth where a border can be drawn that does not contain their fair share of evil. This is half the nature of humanity. Thankfully, there is a good part in all as well. The duel between both parts of human nature is endless and timeless. Draw your borders. Blame whatever country or government you wish. That does not solve a thing for more than a moment. Both the problem and the solution rests within each of us. The blame-game is fruitless guilt dumping. Do something positive.
ChrisL
Chris,I agree there is plenty of blame to go around--and also praise, by the way.
There is a saying 'blaming keeps people helpless.' What I reject is the 'victim mentality' that gets stuck on blaming others, and fails to take responsibility and organize with like-minded people to try to create a better world.
ps. I just voted in the Virginia primary. :-)
Edel: Part of what I was saying was that I was not backing anybody, unofficially or otherwise. I wanted to talk to Americans about Cuba – that's the main reason I wore the shirt. I'd love to have to bumped into you, for example.
A couple of things you seemed to misinterpret.
And the police won’t arrest you in Miami for wearing a Che shirt. They, like the Iraqis you mentioned, might just suggest it’s not the smartest thing to walk around in one. You’d be surprised how many Iraqis, Cubans, and many of those “opressed” love America.
I meant the police in Massachusetts and the Miami Cubans as two separate groups, but never mind. When I mentioned the Baghdadis eagerly awaiting the Americans, I meant with open arms, not as a Bushian "bring ’em on!"
>What is “victim mentality” to some might be a reality to others.
I don't know if the term "victim mentality" is precisely defined, but it is often used in both psychology and sociology to describe an outlook of passivity and fixation on blaming.
It is a real phenomenon, and not healthy and not helpful. It is also easy to slip into. One of the sites I just found googling on the term explained it using the ideas of the famous psychologist Victor Frankl. When Frankl was in a Nazi concentration camp he found the key to survival in rejecting a victim mentality, even though he was certainly a victim. Suffering is a very real part of life, and some of us are dealt immensely tougher hands than others. But how we respond to our situation is in every case partly our decision--that is what Frankl emphasized.
Tiffany, I don't think it is impolite to bring this issue up. I think it is an important issue. How much any individual suffers from a 'victim' mentality is up to them to search their own soul and decide. It is not my call, and I'm sorry if it sounded like I was making any personal judgment, which I am not doing.
I do note, however, that a lot of political venom is spit out on typophile in blaming, and very little energy in discussion of positive alternatives. Your discussion of EULAs is a good example of a healthier way: positively trying to make a difference, rather than just grumbling about 'the man' 'the establishment' 'the system' etc, etc.
I am just suggesting that a fixation on blame is not a very healthy or productive thing. I'll leave it at that.
That *was* an incredibly useful & thoughtful & smart thing to do. ( Creating the EULA thread ).
Rather than create an incredibly long thread that has for the most part stopped talking about the subject initially presented or it's immediate ( & legitimate) tangents - perhaps it is time to create a new thread...
>“ps. I just voted in the Virginia primary. :-)”
>Me too!
That's just wonderful. I get a lump in my throat. thanks.
Also, I think it would be easier to understand hrant's point of view if there were more details, what is your ancestral homeland?
Everyone here has been very detailed in their discussions, seems like it would shed some light. Or are details all bourgeoisie and you'd rather wax poetically about the abstract struggle against the abstract powers that be. Without detail I just keep thinking you grew up in some suburb in California and the toughest gig you slaved at was a part time at the Micky D. Just trying to understand the source of your beef.
thanks, er
New here. What's the EULA? If you set something else up, maybe I'll go there. It has nothing to do with ampersands, does it?
Although, I think I may be done soon. This has been good, thanks all, I may be back with type queries in the future. You're a bunch of talented, smart, passionate folks I can count on to tell me what you really think.
er
Edel, I actually tend to talk too much about myself. When I seem
cagey it's often because I want to spare people the agony of hearing
it all over yet again.
What I really should do is have a FAQ that I can just refer to! :-)
In fact I've already thought of a cool domain for it: hhpov.com
Because that's really all it is, or can be.
hhp
hhp,
Yep, I understand what you mean about repeating the stories all over again. People are interested, cause they're curious, and you want to inform, but one feels like one might be exploiting the matter sometimes.
I just met too many people through my college years that talked endlessly about struggles but grew up in a suburb, go to the Starbucks for their lattes, on and on, so I just roll my eyes a little too quickly when I see someone talking about the man.
My point with the cover was that I had this one place to say something. The magazine was doing two stories, one on my work and another on Cuban design. I had a feeling the Cuban design story was going to praise the Revolution, how wonderful it was for poster design, blah, blah. It went over the top with praise for the whole system, as many writers tend to do with the Revolution. And the glorious Che propaganda posters inside the magazine just added to it. So, I, having a different opinion because of my childhood, felt I needed to counter the impression all of that would give. In the end, I don't think the writer of the Cuba story was too thrilled with my work because it went against his premise, but the editors went with it, probably for balance.
If, say, they were to call you to do a feature on your work, and you knew there was another large story inside that would praise the greatness of America, with images of Jasper Johns' flags, Norman Rockwell paintings, and detailed studies of the design of the Constitution, might you not be tempted to do a cover with your take on the letters WE THE PEOPLE?
er
Timd:
re: Rorschach.
Dear old Walter has retired. Needed a facelift. Hrm.
Hrant:
re: Freedom from Choice
Excellent piece of Devo-lyric there. Ya dig?
re: FAQ
As in Frequently Answered Questions? One for You and one for Popper perhaps.
Can You whacky kids guess whose birthday it is today by the way?
ƒ
Not meeee but Cheeee.
ƒ
Paul wrote:
"I see no difference between design or art or music and life itself."
Sorry, Paul. I can't see what this statement means, as a comment to what I said in my post. Could you tell me more?
Hrant wrote:
"It’s very easy to be utopian when you’re not threatened.
And it’s downright beneficial when you’re the oppressor."
I don't think William's opinion is utopical. Why do you think it is? Considering themselves victimized will not show threateners anything but a reflection of their own rage, or banal egoism. I'm not saying injustice should be encouraged, but Gandhi's legacy is very less talked about than Hitler's. Should we continue this way?
I appreciate William Bergson and Chris' posts. The essence of such a discussion does not ignore or deny the value of personal struggle, misery and difficulty. Ask how do we learn to love, instead. This is not utopical, Hrant. I admire what you do, but not the form of your talk.
Happy BD, Che.
> Frequently Answered Questions
Hey, I can use that!
--
Claudio, it's utopical to expect somebody* who is being threatened not to defend
himself. In fact it is inhuman. Maybe you believe that defense and attack can be
totally separated? Not so, they're like Yin/Yang.
* Or a people.
hhp
>it’s utopical to expect somebody* who is being threatened not to defend himself. In fact it is inhuman. Maybe you believe that defense and attack can be totally separated? Not so, they’re like Yin/Yang.
With all due respect, is this not a perfect rationalization for what America is doing, they feel threatened, and they're attacking.
er
"Though he is seen by some as a hero, opponents of Guevara, including some Cuban exiles, think of him as a killer and terrorist. They point to what they see as the less savory aspects of Guevara's life, taking the viewpoint that he was enthusiastic about executing opponents of the Cuban Revolution. Some of Guevara's writing is cited as evidence of this tendency, as quoted in an article by Álvaro Vargas Llosa. For example, in his "Message to the Tricontinental", he writes of "hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine."
Happy Birthday Che
er
> they feel threatened
Yeah, it's on TV after all, so it must be true!
--
And what is worse, a killer of individuals who admits it, or
killers of peoples who act like they're doing them a favor?
As I said in another thread, there is the darkness in all of
us, and it comes out due mostly to circumstances beyond
our control. But we're still all human, and most of all we
need to see the darkness as human.
hhp
And here's the reality on the ground concerning people
who bring up Gandhi, and the healthy business of slavery:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5079590.stm
BTW Claudio, Gandhi isn't brought up in the States (and hence the West*) for a number of reasons. One is that peace is bad for business; another is that the powers that be have nothing to gain politically from reminding people of him, unlike Hitler, who is a dream-boat, highly-leveraged symbol of the mythical "enemy".
* Especially in Italy, which until very recently was a
puppet regime, and still is highly servile to the empire.
hhp
> they feel threatened
>Yeah, it’s on TV after all, so it must be true!
It wasn't on t.v. for me, it was in front of me. It might have been on T.V. in C A L I F O R N I A. And I felt threatened.
But, you're right, I forgot, this is all part of the vast conspiracy put together by the powers that be to take over all the world's resources. Idiots that can't run relief supplies after a hurricane or get their approval rating past 35% . You give them a lot of credit. It's not conspiracy, it's just incompetency. I know, the incompetency IS part of the plan.
er
Either join in and work for what you’re so passionate about or just go about working for the man. But don’t work for the man and wax poetically about the struggle. Join it.
Edel, I know we citizens of the USA are all ignorant bores and whiners (joke), but there are actually people here who do a tremendous amount of good work and are extremely involved in political struggle. You just don't happen to hear about it because we talk about type most of the time. Occasionally our politics will come out in a discussion, and that is something I enjoy. I enjoy reading your point of view, but hate hearing your assumptions about mine or those of anyone else here (even *gasp* hrant).
I liked your cover because that particular image of Che is definitely a "brand" removed from the reality of who Che was and what he believed. The Nike swoosh and the iPod earbugs are equally removed from the reality of the production of shoes and personal electronics.
I disliked your cover because of what isn't clear. What's lost, unfortunately, is the difference between Che, the person, and Nike/iPod, the corporations. It's not just that a different political philosophy is represented (communism vs. capitalism) but also the unfortunate juxtoposition of individual/corporation that evokes a particular political issue in the U.S.; the increasing trend toward assigning the rights of individuals to corporations:
Captured from commoncrawl.org on 27 Apr 2015. original URL
