1. The client licenses the original foundries type properly, i.e. for the number of machines and locations as specified by the eula. 2. you customize it as the client wishes. 3. the client replaces the customized font into the same licensing “footprint” as the original font. 4. You don’t license the font to anyone else unless they have the same deal as the first client, and it’s not exclusive to that client, or you totally recreate the font from scratch, remaking all the contours, all spacing and tables as if it was new.

I’m a bit surprised that David proposes this course without mentioning this caveat:
This course of action is only acceptable if the license from the original foundry allows modifications.

Many foundries, including The Font Bureau. don’t allow modifications. This has been discussed at length in this forum.

See:
The End User’s Manifesto
and
Alternative to Fedra Serif B?

Do I buy the font and modify it (if allowed) or do I simply build it from scratch? I was thinking that I would do it from scratch since the grid is as simple as it gets...

You say “small changes”, what does that mean? To me, the first thing is to look at the EULA. If you don’t own the font, ask the foundry about it. If you are just doing a few words and not an actual font and the result will not be taken as the original you are probably OK. If you are making an entire font for sale competing with the original, it should be clearly enough different to not be taken as a rip off. If it must look just like the original with a few minor changes, ask the designer to do it for you or give you permission to do it your self.

ChrisL

i am of the opinion that if you’re rebuilding the font from scratch, using none of the information of the original font, and making substantial enough changes for people to notice the difference between the original and your new font, you’re safe not having to even deal with the the font that was the source of inspiration.

John, indeed. Maybe because David is reasonable enough to realize it’s an
idiotic clause. Very often lawyers convince a company to behave badly.

> making substantial enough changes for people to notice
> the difference between the original and your new font

Who are “people”? The designer-user? The reader? Other type designers?

hhp

Poor writing skills kill the thread...I totally bunged this one up. I was trying to get at something other than legal issues:

I don’t even own the face in question so there is no basis for me to copy their actual work…but I wonder if there is some etiquette regarding these kinds of things?

I was trying to talk about the etiquette of showing others where the inspiration came from. The designer in question talks about where his inspiration originated (other fonts). Perhaps it’s a completely stupid question...

So, is there some etiquette that typographers (I’m a designer of 10 years but not a traditional typographer) use in these instances? Are there some generic rules?

The new font that I will likely be creating is unique enough...will not be for sale (unless somebody wants to handle that for me - too busy)...and is only based up the inspiration of another face.

Perhaps Arial should have referred to Helvetica or Grotesque, but it didn’t. Some fonts do try to show the influence. I’m in new waters here...

I personally don’t think you should share your source for inspiration.

1. The client could end up liking the source and wanting you to round the corners of the source and you’ll be left with a typeface you’ve created and hope someone else wants it.
2. Giving clients too much information can sometimes muddy the waters of simplicity.

So, you don’t have the typeface, but you did use it? How did you use it? Or I mean how were you able to draw inspiration from it?

Inspiration...
how and why doth thy muse descend?

Was Joan Miro inspired by Charles Snell’s Script or was Tom Carnase inspired by Miro?
How many faces inspired Stuart Davis and was he the father of grunge type?

Inspiration carries the torch from hand to hand, but copying steals the light. Be glad of what truly inspires you. Trying to introduce a client to your Muse is a wasted effort IMHO.

“Revealing your inspiration” sounds too fluffy but it won’t be a waste if you spin it into “demonstrating the visual evolution” or showing a “visual audit of the competitive landscape.” Then you’re on to something.

See, it’s only fluff if you don’t attach quantifiable (objective) meaning to it — and I’m not talking about faking your way through it like kids in a 100-level college art class. I’ve found that some clients like to understand why something “feels” the way it does.

> Trying to introduce a client to your Muse is a wasted effort IMHO.
>See, it’s only fluff if you don’t attach quantifiable (objective) meaning to it

Some clients. Yes. Some not. Go with your gut.

im probably getting burned for writing this here, but my opinion is that if you rebuild it from scratch, you shouldnt care about any EULA. if you can convince the client to buy a license just because its better ethicaly, do it. but in the end you have all the work and have to build this thing from scratch, so you did it.

if you use a grid you’ve seen used by somebody else, but you have to rebuild it entirely from scratch (in indesign, quark or whatever), its your work, not his. would you pay this other designer because your grid derived from his? no.

“if you rebuild it from scratch, you shouldnt care about any EULA”
I could ’ave sworn I said that...

” the etiquette of showing others where the inspiration came from”
I’m lost. Etiquette, really has nothing to do with it. I think the word you’re looking for is honesty, forthrightedness, or “being upfront,” about saying Y-type is based on X-type.

“Perhaps Arial should have referred to Helvetica or Grotesque, but it didn’t. Some fonts do try to show the influence.” ?

I did not realize how poor were my writing skills for short communications until I read the autobiography of U.S. Grant, a master in the early age of instant communications. He was one of the first to realize how screwed up the telegraph could make things if the message was fast, but unclear. : - )