I'm sure you know what my two cents look like on this: The EULA is "ratified" by the foundry stating it and the customer accepting it. The customer agrees to the terms set forth by the foundry. If one of those terms states that the terms of the agreement may change in the future, then caveat emptor big time. The customer is responsible for sticking to the terms of the EULA she accepted at the time of purchase, not any subsequent EULAs.

And if you see a "terms are liable to change" term in an agreement of any kind, run far far away: you may end up losing your first-born or a pound of flesh.

Yeah, I guess I was wrong on the implications of the hypothetical "variable term" EULA.

Still, I've never seen one of those for a font. Has any one else seen one?

Perhaps we should steer this discussion back towards the very real difficulties in current EULAs. I'll propose a topic:

Does it bother any one else that they're not allowed to alter the kerning in a font if the EULA doesn't allow modifications?

John, I am going to be speaking to the tech forum on exactly this topic. The complaints users have about EULAs. I will definitely mention your complaint as it is a complaint others have had. I personally think the EULA, any EULA, should allow for modifications, but with the caveat that if the user jacks-up their font they can't complain to the foundry asking for a new copy if they didn't keep a back-up. Not that this is what you would do, John.

Aren't there any other fiddly bits in EULAs that really rub people the wrong way? Or are EULAs user friendly already?

Well, how about the EULAs that permit only one backup copy? What's THAT about? Don't most backup strategies include at least 2 backups?

Or, how about how hard it is to find and read some of the EULAs. Have a look at the Monotype EULA page. They ask you to agree without even showing you the agreement.

But fine, we're all savvy here, just click on "Show agreement", set below the "I accept..." button. Try reading this baby through the letter slot window provided!

One can't be blamed for suspecting they don't REALLY want me to consider what I'm agreeing to. Do they think I might not like it?

Excellent Point, John.

I do know some foundries have their EULAs front and center, but quite a few do not. Veer.com does an excellent job of giving anyone interested the opportunity to read the EULA for any of the foundries they represent. The license agreement is on the main page for each foundry. Kinda strange that I can't expland the window, but no worries I can cut and paste and save it for later. I thought MyFonts had something similar, but a quick look shows nothing. A quick look around FontShop, nothing. Adobe, nothing. Linotype, front page albeit light gray and toward the bottom. House Industries has a link right at the top of the homepage. Emigre has a 'font related faq' on their homepage, that sends you to a list of questions with the licensing question at the top. Village has the EULA for each foundry on their respective pages in bold black type. LICENSING Nice!

I do know some foundries show you the EULA before downloading, useful, but not totally smart. Foundries who hide their EULAs from interested parties are telling those interested parties that they don't really care. Not so nice.

MyFonts, Linotype, FontShop all offer download after the fact. They keep track of your account. I think Veer does as well. With lifetime download you don't need to make back-ups, or at least more than their EULAs allow. Nice.

Yes, Tiffany, the only way I've found of viewing the EULAs at FontShop (and a couple of others), is to begin the purchasing process, and then back out. I love the fact that Veer's site makes them easy to find.

Well, what can I say that hasn't already been said?

I think it is quite obvious. If you put ridiculous restrictions on me, I will not support your foundry. We buy, on average, a font family every week for my firm, and we own several complete libraries.

There are foundries that I will NOT support, for the simple fact of these ridiculous restrictions that make the font useless to us.

The Village EULA is a perfect example of what we need. Kudos on that.

A word to the others. I AM NOT BUYING YOUR FONTS. Get with the picture and give us the freedom we need to do our jobs. No one is asking for a free ride, just some professional flexibility.

To keep this ticking along here’s a summary of items for the manifesto – these cover the “moving the goalposts” scenarios.

1. Easy access to the standard font EULA on every font foundry site – a link to the EULA should have the same hierarchical status us ‘contact us’, ‘home’ etc., on a web site. EULA should clearly declare date it went into effect.
2. Easy access to deprecated EULA’s – what were the rules when I actually licensed the fonts?
3. A EULA that matches the information encoded within the font – most obviously embedding bits – don’t make the EULA contradict the embedding bits set in the font. Make sure ownership © and TM, vendor ID, links, embedded description and license are accurate and match the EULA.
4. Don’t set restrictions like “may only be embedded securely” – I don’t want my documents to suddenly become illegal the moment a hacker beyond my control works out how to extract the fonts or outlines from a given file format.

Cheers, Si

Si, I'd add to point 2 ... or rather I'll add ...

Does the EULA which applied to the license I purchased always apply? Or am I, the user, always held under whatever the current EULA might be?

Isn't it an assumed thing ... oops assuming is bad ... that embedding will be secure? I think the major point, problem, concern, with embedding is simply being allowed to embed in things such as PDFs for proofing and for service bureaus.

Kyle's company won't license from foundry's that don't allow embedding. How many people are willing to stick to something like that? Do people license anyway and ignore that point in the EULA? Do foundries assume people are doing this and yet still do not change the EULA? Do foundries care? Do foundries not care and simply want their type to be licensed? I've been told by a small foundry that they want the type licensed, and that is their first concern.

One vendor told me that when they revise their EULA they don't take away any rights they just clarify especially when new scenarios appear. But I don’t have a handle on how many vendors reserve the right to change terms.

WRT security I would rather have vendors call out the embedding that they’re okay with – PDF, Word, Flash etc., rather than play the security card.

I’d agree that any foundry that has a blanket no-embedding rule is not likely to license many fonts to graphic designers who will abide by this or other EULA terms. But in the OpenType world users will have to hack the fonts to change the embedding bits if they want to embed ‘no embedding’ fonts in PDFs – this raises the stakes.

Cheers, Si

The only thing I can add is a plea to clarify. What does it mean to alter a font? What is embedding? We are getting to the nuances any rational person would suss out. I think the point about adjusting kerning as altering a font is right on. What about converting to outlines and altering those outlines? What about trap? Blanket prohibitions only lead to more questions.

Any foundry producing or updating a EULA should focus not simply on how to protect themselves legaly but also on how an end user that wanted to respect the EULA could proceed.

Here's another restriction that pops up in a few EULAs: some allow the use of the font software on 5 computers but only ONE PRINTER. So, if you've got a laser and an inkjet, I suppose one of them has to go!

This condition appears, for example, in the EULA offered for E&F and Linotype fonts at Myfonts, but not the Linotype EULA offered at Lynotype.com. (!?) Anyone else know of examples of this?

Unfortunately for me, Linotype.com doesn't allow font modifications without special permission, while the Linotype EULA at Myfoonts does, so I'm forced to choose between colour printing and say, custom kerning. Hmmm...

BTW, for those of you who may think I'm overstating the import of modification restrictions in EULAs, I'd like to point out that Porchez Typofonderie's EULA specifically forbids altering the kerning of a font:
"The fonts must not be altered in any manner whatsoever, including the manipulation of any of the following: The digital font data in order to mix it with another; its composition; its forms, outlines, or its characters; the position of the characters (in all cases, including spacing and kerning which leave the original font intact)"

It would seem that even using optical kerning within InDesign violates this EULA: note that kerning is forbidden even if it leaves "the original font intact"!

Good points. My understanding on the printers issue is that they are talking about resident fonts downloaded to the printer's memory. But again, how clear has this been made? And, is it left to the end user to make an assumption?

> It would seem that even using optical kerning within InDesign violates this EULA

No, the actual font itself is not altered.

>Unfortunately for me, Linotype.com doesn’t allow font modifications without special permission, while the Linotype EULA at Myfoonts does,

My guess is that the Myfonts EULA for Linotype fonts will be updated soon to reflect the current Linotype.com EULA.

>What is embedding?

This is an interesting one - we say the user has rights to embed the font based on the embedding permissions in the font, and in accordance with the OpenType font specification - which defines embedding. The TT/OT specs are probably the closest thing we have to an industry definition of embedding.

But the PTF EULA says "... which leave the original font intact"!
So even customizing the kerning in Quark is strictement interdit!

hhp

Doh, sorry I didn't read the whole thing.

In that case Word and any other WYSIWYG enviroment breaks the EULA. In fact printing to almost any device or rasterizing on any screen would break the EULA - because these devices can't faithfully reproduce the exact spacing JFP put into the font without rounding errors.

Hey, I have an idea for TypeCon2006:
Have a theatrical play, where each male actor plays the part of a certain EULA, and there's a female font user in the middle (Tiffany?) trying to decide who to go out with. Or wait: a font-user/EULA Dating Game! It all starts nice, but then as Tiffany asks harder questions the cracks start to show. Then you'd have one of the guys break down and start yelling "Don't you touch me!!!" at the end, and another who keeps sneaking peaks into Tiffany's pockets for contraband. A bunch of schizos, basically. And we'd use cool fake names (like Emigraine) for the guys!

hhp

"My guess is that the Myfonts EULA for Linotype fonts will be updated soon to reflect the current Linotype.com EULA."

Where EULAs are concerned, even the best of us are left guessing.

>Have a theatrical play,

I like it. I've actually been thinking about the opposite angle – a play in which the fonts are set free and mayhem ensues. “The fonts were created by man… but they rebelled” – kind of like the Cylons in the Battlestar Galactica remake.

Si

I thought it might be helpful to this discussion to post a summary of what Frank Martinez (an experienced lawyer whose words have ended up in most foundries' EULAs) had to say on the subject of the EULA. Frank attended TypeCon2005 and participated in a panel discussion in which Tiffany, Bruno Steinert, Si Daniels, Rich Kegler and I also participated.

I must make it clear that this is a personal impression of Frank’s remarks, and there is some elaboration by me, hopefully clarifying things.

EULAs address three parties
Frank reminded us that EULAs are written with three parties in mind, the last often forgotten in these discussions. 1. The designer/foundry. 2. The customer. 3. A judge. That third party will not accept vagueness: in a court, any imprecision will be interpreted in favour of the defendant. So EULAs, particularly from the long-standing foundries with experience of courtrooms, do not easily get rewritten in “friendly language”.

No silver bullet in writing EULAs
As a composer of EULAs, do not imagine there is a magic form of words which offers “100% protection”.

EULAs as a component of the foundry’s business model
Frank noted that a foundry composes its EULA not just to conform to its business model, but as a key part of its business model. You, as a EULA writer, decide to what extent a customer may exploit your work, thereby adding value to their work. This set of decisions relates strongly to what kind of customer you want to attract. Frank seemed to avoid the subject of what terms might be “reasonable” for a customer to expect from a font EULA, and seemed perfectly content with the idea of a diverse EULA world.

EULAs as psychological protection
It seemed that many of the foundries with whom Frank has worked have had a specific case or two in mind - from the years they’ve been in business - when rewriting their EULAs. It is as if the type designers were taking special precautions not to be stung twice in the same way. Perhaps (I’m paraphrasing now) repeated exploitation on the same basis would be deeply humiliating - not only financially painful. This method of writing leads to texts that seem overflowing with arbitrary exclusions, yet lacking in descriptions of how users are supposed to use the fonts. Thus one sees how the pleasant and readable EULA from a new foundry evolves only in the ugly direction.

Assumption of legal sophistication in the customer
Frank also mentioned that EULAs expect a degree of legal sophistication in the buyer. More sophistication, for example, than the buyer of “consumer” software such as music CDs, movie DVDs, and videogames. There seems then to be this tension from the buyer, exemplified by Tiffany and others here, where buyers are not exactly casual, but nor are they necessarily buying with business and contract law at the forefront of their minds. They see a typeface they’d like to use, the price seems fair, and would like that to be the end of it. (This seems to be to be a general problem, one that may cause surprises in the courtroom, as acceptance of unread EULAs and terms of service becomes universal.)

Small fry=red herring
Frank seemed to suggest that an experienced foundry would not go after customers for small (i.e. non-piratical) infractions of the EULA. A good EULA protects against serious abuses by those worth suing. Almost all small-fry abuse is piratical anyway, protection against which does not require a EULA.

The EULA is a declaration to sue
I, a foundry, will sue you, a user, for using my software. Oh, except in certain specific circumstances, I agree not to sue. Perhaps the allowable circumstances are not defined explicitly(!), but instead the EULA is a list of what is forbidden. This could be safer than statements of what is allowed, since technological advances mean old allowed usages might, in the future, add much more value than originally intended by the foundry. For example, "editable embedding" did not seem terribly dangerous in 1992. Customers have to get over the feeling that a EULA that consists of list of “what is not allowed” is unfair.

-- Laurence

Laurence: good, useful post - thanks.

> Frank seemed to avoid the subject of what terms might be “reasonable”

Makes sense, for a lawyer. But nobody else.

> ... deeply humiliating

This I believe is quite relevant. I think it comes from the detrimental "artist's pride" psychological complex. Font houses have to tame their egos to make more financial sense. When you get stung, you need to become wiser, not more cavemanlike.

> I, a foundry, will sue you, a user, for using my software.

This is, of course, exactly what's wrong with the thing.

> This could be safer

Only in the most short-term, legalistic way. To me, the most dangerous thing is telling your legit customers you don't trust them. The other ones barely know you exist.

> Customers have to get over the feeling that a EULA
> that consists of list of “what is not allowed” is unfair.

1) In reality, customers have to do jack. The problem is the font house's. Customers can elect to become "pirates" quite easily (especially if they're treated as such from the get-go) and an antagonistic EULA only pushes them towards that. And this is related to why most individuals (I mean non-lawyers) don't read EULAs: it's not worth the effort.

2) I haven't seen anybody complain about that. I have seen people complain that: EULAs are (intentionally?) hard to understand; and some clauses are nothing short of fascist.

We need our users more than they need us.

hhp

In an attempt to continue this discussion on a positive note, I wonder if people have examples of EULAs they particularly like?

Some I appreciate:
Process Type, ShinnType, and, of course, Village. Adobe's terms are also attractive to me, although the EULA itself isn't exactly light reading!

The Mark Simonson EULA is interesting in what it doesn't cover, although I'm not sure which EULA applies if you don't buy type directly from Mark. Storm’s seems to be easy to understand and explicit.

People are listening...

Press release

August 2005

New Liberal License Conditions for FontFonts

FontShop International (FSI) has updated the license terms and conditions for their FontFonts. The new rules acknowledge two important user requests regarding the use of fonts on laptops and working with service bureaus and printers. These changes are valid immediately, and even cover FontFonts licensed in the past.

“Many of our customers now work at different locations, they take documents on business trips, work at home, and, in the end, they send documents for output to a service bureau,” says Jürgen Siebert, member of the FontFont Typeboard. “Font licensing should be compatible with these flexible working conditions.”

FontFont’s updated End User License Agreement (EULA) respects this new environment. Users who work both at the office and at home may load their fonts on their laptop — without any effect on the number of licensed users. Licensing is no longer applied per workstation (CPU), but rather on number of users. Supplying FontFonts used in a specific document to a service bureau or printer for outputting is subject to an important condition: the service bureau may output the given document but not make any modifications. After outputting, the fonts must be deleted.

There are also new rules for the internet. If you embed FontFonts in a non-commercial secured PDF, you may put the PDF on your website for viewing and downloading.

The rights of FontFont designers will also be strengthened by the new license conditions. Without FSI’s permission, FontFont data may not be renamed or modified.

You can read and print the new FontFont EULA at www.fontfont.com/eula/license.html.

About FontFonts

The FontFont library of digital typefaces was launched in 1990 by Erik Spiekermann and Neville Brody with the goal of producing cutting-edge typefaces by designers for designers. Now representing the work of over 100 designers, the FontFont Library contains over 3,000 contemporary fonts - many of the most popular typefaces in use today - including FF Meta®, FF DIN®, FF Scala®, FF Eureka® Sans, FF Kievit™, and FF Fago™. FontFonts are available at www.fontfont.com

FontFont and FontFont typeface names are trademarks of FSI FontShop International. Other trademarks mentioned for informational purposes are the property of their respective owners.

===

I've been thinking "constructively", but pragmatically
as always, and I'm coming to the conclusion that EULAs:
- Are useful to the user only in helping him not get sued.
- Cannot be made reasonable/intelligible beyond a certain limit inherent in Law/Capitalism.
- Are here to stay, even if most people don't read them.

As a result, I propose the following: leave the EULA field in its "negativist" domain, with all its legalese trappings, but have a second document for decent individual humans. This document (can't think of a name right now) would explain in a normal conversational manner what the font house would like to see happen, and not happen. It might even explain why, and propose direct contact to resolve conflicts or ambiguities. It might start something like this: "Thank you for bothering to read this; it means you're a decent person, hopefully with reasonable expectations. We also have expectations, and we hope they're reasonable. #1) Please..." I can picture somebody who wouldn't read a EULA going to the trouble of reading such a document, making everybody happier. And if they do bother to initiate direct contact, that just means you have a decent customer on your hands, to whom you can sell [more] stuff in the future, with peace of mind. Open, sincere communication is the best long-term strategy I think.

I've loved seeing some font houses try to be more reasonable in their EULAs, but I think it might be better to split the effort into two angles.

hhp

>but have a second document for decent individual humans.

From http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/name.htm ...

13. License Description; description of how the font may be legally used, or different example scenarios for licensed use. This field should be written in plain language, not legalese.

example - This font may be installed on all of your machines and printers, but you may not sell or give these fonts to anyone else.

Cheers, Si

This FontFont PR statement strikes me as intetresting...

>The rights of FontFont designers will also be strengthened by the new license conditions. Without FSI’s permission, FontFont data may not be renamed or modified.

The see this as a type designers rights issue. Do they go back and check with the designer when they get a modification request? "John Nolan wants to modify your font, what do you think?" Or do the bosses make the call, or do they have a list of fonts on which modifications are allowed? If so why not publish this list?

Cheers, Si

I'm not talking just about intelligibility, but more about tone and attitude. For example, "you may not" would NEVER occur in the document I'm thinking of.

The ideological difference between a EULA and this document is that the former assumes an entity will abuse the font house, while the latter realizes that the font house is at the mercy of the user and seeks only to communicate expectations.

hhp

Not sure I get it. I'd rather have a statement that says "you may not sell or give away this font" than "if someone else other than you wants this font they have to license a copy for themselves", or "sorry the designer is very protective of their work so doesn't allow modifications" rather than "if you'd like to make modifications to this font you're out of luck, you should go and license another font from someone else such as Adobe." Perhaps you could write such a description for an existing EULA (say the FontFont EULA) so we can see how it works.

None of those, nothing like that at all. I'm talking about something
that has a lot of "please"s in it. Like your friends talk to you.

There's no point getting rid of a EULA, or even softening it up. Better to counteract it, balance it, cater to decent users (the rest either don't read
EULAs or read them to know how impressive a legal department they'll need).

hhp

Sounds possible, but I'd still like to see an example.

I don't sell a lot of things to friends but here's an example from a few years back, when I did. I had a car that I wasn't using, and a friends car had just blown up. So I sold the car to her for 1/4 of what it was worth. There was a legal document required by the state of Washington, and a negotiated verbal agreement with my friend...

"For the next few years you can't sell or give away the car without checking with me. When you're done with the car I'll buy it back from you for what you paid me for it. You have to take the car to the mechanic straight away as it's been sitting in my driveway for the past six months, and I want to make sure its safe for you to drive. Don't modify (paint) the car. Get the car serviced regualrly."

So I guess I licensed the car to my friend, but the verbal agreement contains a lot of the phrases you'd ban me from using with respect to a font. I think in the circumstances my requirements were reasonable and my friend did too.

Hrant, you know that I'm very amenable when it comes to EULAs, but I think that it's easier and clearer to list the things you DON'T want to happen to your fonts than all of the things which you DO allow.

In the Village EULA we start with "positive" rules, then follow those with exceptions and caveats. I believe that most EULAs work the same way: you can do what you want except X, Y, and Z. That's much shorter than: you can do A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, etc. etc.

Si:
"Do they go back and check with the designer when they get a modification request?"

As Danny at FS_SF explained it to me, yes.

He said modification work would first be offered to the designer. If the designer agrees to the modification, but doesn't wish to do the work himself, it would be handled by FontShop itself.

He didn't know of a case where a user would be permitted to undertake modifications himself. I've asked him about kerning alterations, and he's looking in to it for me.

Simon: I try to avoid mixing commerce and friends too, but you could say that a customer who bothers to read a document outlining your desires (that's all they really are) is in effect exceptionally friendly.

> “For the next few years you can ...

You asked for an example from me, but I think your provided a pretty good one yourself! This is sort of what I was talking about - although it's still a bit too tough - and that works both ways. For example, I would say things like:
- "you shouldn't sell or give away the car without checking with me."
- but also, "I'll endeavor to buy it back from you for what you paid me".

Chester, I certainly agree with your "I think that it’s easier and clearer to list the things you DON’T want to happen to your fonts than all of the things which you DO allow." The only time it makes sense to have a "positive" clause is as an exception to a negative one. For example you could have something like "please don't modify the font, unless your computer is only used by you". What I was actually trying to say isn't that this document (not a EULA!) should avoid being antagonistic by mentioning what one can do with the fonts, but simply by treating the user as an equal (at least).

John, what if the font house asks the original designer, but he says "Hey, I like that malformed ligature", or "I think the mod is a good idea, but I don't want anybody doing it". Or he says "I want to do it myself, but in five years". I personally know a number of cases of such "font squatting", and to me that's just as bad as piracy. Oh, and what if the original designer has become a stubborn old senile prick? Typeface designs are part of culture, and never belong 100% to any single person.

hhp

Hrant it drives me bonkers every time you bring up this argument!

Just because someone becomes a "stubborn senile old prick" doesn't mean that they loose their rights before the law. And who is to decide when someone has become "unreasonable"? Just because you dislike someone, that doesn't give the right to run roughshod over their work!

> And who is to decide when someone has become “unreasonable”?

You ask me this every time, and I give the same answer: Each of us, individually. When you think about it, what other choice do any of us really have, in the end? The Law just doesn't cut it, sorry. And it's not a matter of "rights" as much as it is a matter of applying a pragmatic, reasonable existence. All these pretty, petty rights (like freedom of speech - what a joke) we're told we have on TV are nothing but distraction tactics, to get us to be good little cogs, to keep us Legal. The problem of course is that the Law is about money, not Justice.

hhp

I don't believe that justice would be possible under such a relative system. We would have a free-for-all, and no one's rigts would be protected.

Oddly that is the usual stance — that things will fall apart without these ideas of law and justice. These are constructs though, and I do believe there is a deep system that works underneath the law/language structure. Everyone is subject to the law they impose on themselves — do what you will and all that jazz. Seems the legal system sets limits on recourse and sets a standard of civility or uncivility as it might be.

To me each person’s own ethical constucts hold the real power, so we might not have a free-for-all as we fear. That's unless we were actually fighting for resources that were scarce. In that case I don't think the imposed legal system would protect us.

What's the difference between (a) fonts embedded in a PDF or Flash and (b) fonts embedded in games, software, operating systems or mobile devices?

The difference is that the latter (b) are products, where the font software enhances the value of the product in measurable terms like usability (closely related to aesthetics), file size and functionality. With the former (a) I see no difference between web sites with GIF fonts or Flash embedded fonts and something with ink on a page.

Since the laws around font licensing center around protecting the software (and not the design copyright) then it's out of necessity that font licensing has evolved the way software has -- versus the way other creative usage rights have evolved.

Now, speaking as an end user, I appreciate the foundries who are thinking about how I will use their fonts. In general, it is really irritating when there are stipulations about PDF or Flash embedding (or EPS outlines!) and I'd say get over it, because I'm going to find another foundry to deal with. Using Chester's analogy, that means I would not buy the car that won't go over 45mph when I know that most often I will need a highway legal car!

* Regarding piracy issues with embedding (not the topic of this thread), I say get over it. Piracy is going to happen and just because some hacker kid will pull your fonts out of a PDF or Flash file doesn't mean you should hamper your font sales by getting so tight with your EULAs. This issue is something for the software makers (Adobe and Macro- er, Adobe) to figure out, not to punish the legitimate font licensees over.

Not sure if this has been covered yet, but it looks like Letterhead Fonts won't release any new fonts before they have a working activation/copy protection in place (link). It looks like some of their fonts were pirated and they won't have none of it.

Not sure how possible this is, and how it will interfere with the workflow... I'm really curious to see how this gamble will work out.

[Moderator comment: I have to say I appreciate the civil way this thread has been handled by all involved. It's a potentially touchy subject, so it's all the more appreciated.]

I will be curious to see what Letterhead comes up with, and hope that they have much success with it.

I am reminded of the time a few years ago when HTF's fonts - this was before Tobias joined Jonathan - came with an installer which silently placed an invisible Extension into the user's OS 9 System Folder. The fonts would not work without the Extension in place. So if one released a design job using a HTF font, and only the font files were sent to one's bureau, the HTF fonts wouldn't show up. (I forget whether they swapped out to Courier or what happened.)

HTF ended up "recalling" all of the protected fonts and replacing them with non-protected fonts. I assume that they had numerous requests from their confused clients, so had to withdraw their protection scheme. Many of us in the industry were interested by HTF's technology, and were considering similar software or hardware "dongles".

None of which is on-topic. Apologies. c

>It looks like some of their fonts were pirated and they won’t have none of it.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but this type of thing seems to account for the apparently bizarre or arbitrary restrictions in some EULAs - a designer or foundry gets burned in some way and then asks their lawyer to add a clause in their EULA in an attempt not to let the same thing happen again.

I was thinking the same thing, Simon.

Please go to this thread if you want to continue the piracy discussion: http://typophile.com/node/14891

I just want to say that as a non-type-designing art director, I really appreciate Village's approach. Thanks, Chester.

It seems to me that all of these EULA variations and concerns can be worked out so long as something is allowed to "give". If the end user wants a very unresrictive EULA that allows all the rights they dream of, then they should be willing to pay for that right. No?

Do expansive EULA rights come at a cost? And if so what would that be? I have a feeling it won't be $19.95.

Perhaps this whole problem began when the price of font licensing began to spiral downwards.

I agree with you James, as much as I am a graphic designer, I do agree with you. 19.95 doesn't buy much these days.

I've realized that all the points in a EULA, any given EULA, with which I have problems ... issues ... suggestions ... are points at which any give foundry can make additional money from any given person willing to license. As well, I've realized that what a graphic designer considers part of every day business happens to also be those same points. Modifications, embedding, service bureau/printer, laptop/location. New lines need to be drawn. Fonts aren't the most expensive part of being a designer, well not unless you are me ;^), but they are a necessary part of our business.

Tiff,
Are you showing a multi-personality dissorder with a second screen name? Or do you only use Tiffalicious when you are a "bored housewife" ?
:-)

ChrisL

nah just lazy designer.

i don't contend that the following points are potential value-adds for foundries. i argue that some of them shouldn't be though.

chris. what do you think of those points?
- modification -- should we be allowed this, or is it really a value added item and we should pay for the right?
- location -- what is location now? with laptops and so much freelance is this a problem? if I license the type and put it on my laptop should i be allowed to use it where, when and how I want?
- embedding -- PDFs are a way of sharing information now. i use them as proofs and comps to clients. i also send PDFs to press instead of the files and fonts. embedding in SWF could be argued as a given as well. I do agree that anything with the font embedded which is for resale should be a value-add.
- service bureau use -- while i think it INCREDIBLY generous of foundries who do allow for this ... well, I wonder if foundries wouldn't just allow for PDF embedding and then theywouldn't have to do this. If they allow for PDF print/preview as a general rule of thumb but then make an allowance for editable PDF for service bureau press only.

This is me mentally puking all of my thoughts as I have them. as you were.

forgot about this one:

the use of the word cpu vs. workstation vs. user vs. device and how should printers be included. personally, this is one that really sticks in my craw. is that right? most agencies/studios now have more than one printer. i posit that inter-office output devices shouldn't be limited. users and/or workstations/cpus ... okay, this i can understand ... but output devices?? c'mon!

Modification should be allowed in some cases but there must be a clear definition of what is allowable. Anything involving redistribution after mods is not permitted. Mods to make an off-the-shelf face a corporate face should not be permitted without specific written permission and payment. Mods to make language variants is fuzzy to me. If you are adding say Greek or Cyrillic, this is clearly value added and requires payment. If you are adding a few alternate characters for local dialects, this seem fair to me. If you are doing CE where none existed before, I think you need get written permission.
All of your other points (location, embedding, service bureau) involve current work procedures which were not likely when the original EULAs were written. To me embedding fonts in PDFs (with password protection) is not only common practice but a must. It makes more sense to embed a font than send a copy of the font to a service bureau. Editing on site is the big issue. Today designers may be in city A, client in city B, and Printer in city C. In this “I need it yesterday” world, mistakes happen. “Whoops! the figure for net profit for 2005 is wrong on our annual report. Can we change it at the printer’s site?” So what to do? I think printers and service bureaus who do not already own a font should be charged a small “Temporary use fee” by foundries when making mods on site. Sounds fair? but! What a pain to collect and oversee!
Regarding location/CPU/Device—We need to come up with a better term. Perhaps we are talking “Workgroup” or “Project-group”? Meaning the small group in the design office in the project chain (Art Director, Designer, Production artist) including their laptops and all of their proofing devices. I don’t mean an entire ad agency or large corporate design staff, I mean the 1 to 5 people who really work on that project. Most design offices are small anyway and larger ones outsource often to avoid adding full time staff. The sad truth is that a font costs only 20 bucks, a few hundred for a big family. The font designer gets the smallest piece and has the least say . . .—Whoops, soap-boxing again, sorry.

ChrisL

I think workstation is the clearest term. Workgroup and the others are too ambiguous.
"This font software is licensed for use on up to five workstations in one geographic location"
I think that is fairly clear. As to laptop use, I think it should be spelled out in the EULA simply to provide clarity when it comes to agency and large installation use. For most small (1-5)installations, a laptop is just one more workstation, and as long as the laptop isn't permanently kept in another studio in another location I would thik it should fit the terms of the EULA.

Thanks for your thoughts, Chris. I'll work through those later and throw a few more questions out there.

--

Studio A is made up of 5 laptops. Studio A licenses a 5-workstation typeface family. The license does stipulate location. Can the 5-workstations work at home?

I argue that defining a license by location is out-of-date.

James, where do you stand on this? What do others think?

I agree that workgroup is confusing and not definitive enough.

Fine, license by location is out of date. 1-5 workstations as a basic licensing level is out of date as well. The whole point of license by location is to control the number of workstations allowed for the licensing level.

1 font user, one price, no discount for multiples, no stipulation on location.

$35.00 single user license, 5 users = 5 x 35.00 = $175.00 installed anywhere you like.

Discounts for multiple workstations only when controlling the location of the installation.

I think we are on to something here!

A human-user based license is clearly the most
sensical, and the one I myself have always used.

But scalar discounting still makes sense.

hhp

As a user I appreciate discounting for multiple licenses. But, if we can eliminate the need for a physical location then I'd give that up.

Basic license to allow two installations anywhere, that way a user can install on primary workstation and on laptop, or the user can give one to the service bureau, or to their cousin in the next town so that when they visit there will be the font ready for them to use. A twenty person design staff can buy either 20 copies so they can all have on on their laptop or home system, or they can buy 10 copies and divide it up in the one location.

Does that give you the flexibility you want?

Per user, rather than per-cpu, also prevents the loop-hole of server based fonts that hundreds of concurrent users can interact with via the Web or Intranet. This is the case with the Monotype Imaging EULA which defines users as people who can interact with a font regardless of the location of them or the font.

Si

I think "work at home," work in a hotel, work on clients site, should all be allowed. The concept of location is fuzzy. Perhaps it is individual user at any temporary location plus fixed location. I design a job at the office, take it home at night to make a deadline, fly to the client's site and make a presentation from my laptop via projection which I prepared at the Hotel. I printed it on 3 printers. This normal work practice.

ChrisL

Sorry. I'm a little late to the party.

I agree generally with Chester's sentiments.

I don't have a problem with modification. I will happily modify my fonts for users, but I do charge for that. If a user thinks they can do it themselves, I don't mind. If someone thinks they can improve the kerning, good for them. If they think the K should have a swash, fine. The only thing I require is that they have a legitimate original license for the modified font and that they don't give copies of the modified font to anyone who also doesn't have a legitimate license to the original. I also do not offer free technical support for a modified font.

Something that keeps coming up in this discussion is the so-called "value added" problem: To my mind, anyone who uses my fonts uses them because it adds value to whatever it is they use it for. If someone uses it in a highly prominent way, say for a logo or national campaign, how exactly am I losing out? Because they used an off-the-shelf font instead of hiring me to make a custom font for them? If I see a font of mine used in a prominent way, I am extremely happy, even though it's quite possible that only the minimum 5-user license was purchased. To me, it's free advertising. If anything, for such cases, I would request that the name of the font be mentioned somewhere, as in a colophon.

My biggest concern is that users not distribute my fonts as fonts beyond the limits stated in the EULA (i.e., the number of users). I don't mind embedding of any kind as long as the fonts cannot be practically extracted and installed as fonts separate from the document (or software) in which they were embedded. Incidentally, fonts may technically be extracted from PDFs, but such fonts are diminished versions of the original fonts (no kerning tables, OT features, etc.), so I don't worry much about that.

When I say font, I also don't mean just in the particular format it's in. If someone started selling and distributing rub-down type in one of my fonts, I would have a problem with that, though I'm not sure exactly what I could do about it given that typeface designs have such limited legal protection (in the US at least).

I really don't understand the attitude of some type designers who seem to want to put up all sorts of restrictions about how their fonts may or may not be used. To me, the more you can do with a font, the more valuable it is and the more potential customers I have. A font is not a work of art that needs to be protected to preserve the vision of the artist. It's a tool to be used by others to create things. A font has more in common with a tube of paint than it does a painting.

I noticed that my EULA was mentioned in passing by James H. I agree that it could be better and less ambiguous. Occasionally, I have been asked for a clarification from a customer. In fact, I don't think much of what I outlined above could be deduced from it. I wrote it (or, more precisely, reworded someone else's) years ago when selling fonts was only a tiny part of my livelihood. This discussion has given me a lot of food for thought about how I will rewrite it.

Thanks, Mark. Thanks, everyone! This is great to hear both sides. Which is as it should be discussion in the best sense of the word!

"I noticed that my EULA was mentioned in passing by James H. I agree that it could be better and less ambiguous."

Just to make things clear, that was not a complaint. Mark's EULA seemed a bit less prescriptive in that it didn't bring up a few of the issues that lead to so many unanswered questions. One thing this discussion has brought to light is that certain terminology can be interpreted in many ways by reasonable people.

Thanks Mark for a EULA that allows room to work, and thanks for your comments. It is good to hear your ideas, and I appreciate the distinction that a font taken from a PDF is less valuable for the reasons you describe.

James, I wasn't quite sure what you meant when you said my EULA was "interesting." :-) In any case, I do think it leaves a little too much to the imagination so I do intend to rework it.

I wrote it (or, more precisely, reworded someone else’s) years ago

there should be a EULA dispenser, maybe hosted by typophile, where you can check which options you want included in your EULA, press a button, and, voila!, it spits one out for you.

Oh, excellent idea.

How about a copy of MacEULApro: or "iEULA"? or EULAcs the suite?
Nolo Software does this with will writing but that would be the death of us :-)

ChrisL

For more religious typefaces, designers could use "Ha Lay EULA" :-)

ChrisL

I guess I've written my EULAgy now.

ChrisL

(In cyberspace, no one can hear you groan.)

*quiet snicker in the corner*

Groans and snickers are fine--My daughter would have belted me with a newspaper by now. Good thing she is away :-)

ChrisL

Learn something new everyday: http://store.adobe.com/type/browser/legal/embeddingeula.html

Looks like Adobe is willing to open up their own fonts but might be prevented from allowing editing on other foundries' work.

"...Several fonts in the Adobe Type Library, including all Adobe Originals typefaces, other Adobe-owned typefaces and certain third-party font foundry typefaces, allow for editable embedding."

ChrisL

People should check out OurType's EULA: it allows editable embedding. This is quite unusual.

Of course, the best EULA in the world isn't much use if the fonts aren't good. Not that there was ever any doubt, but I've got to tell you, I've just started using Arnhem, and, boy, it's a champ!

Ms Tiffany,

How did your AtypI discussion go on EULAs?
Did you gain any new insights in Helsinki?

ChrisL

I'm happy to report that several foundries are seriously considering what I had to say. That is not to say that anything will happen, but it is nice to know they understood what I was suggesting. The room was full and there were people standing in the back. Needless to say, when I looked up to start speaking I almost fainted. No, really! At that very moment I realized I was about to tell the industry how to run their business models. Talk about sudden added pressure.

You go Girl!

ChrisL

Here's an interesting one...

LettError fonts and artwork are licensed for use on 6 rasterizing devices connected to the same network. A device may be, but is not limited to, a printer, rasterizer, video display terminal, CPU, workstation or any device where the font software is rasterized or display of the LettError Font is generated from font software outlines.

...so I have one computer and one printer.

The computer is a workstation = 1 device
The computer has one CPU = 1 device
The computer includes Windows, which comes with TrueType and PS raterizers = 2 devices
The computer has Adobe Acrobat Reader which has a rasterizer (cooltype) = 1 device
The computer has Avalon beta installed (two rasterizers) = 2 device
The computer has Adobe InDesign installed (one rasterizaer) = 1 device
I have two screens attached = 2 devices
The printer is a laserprinter = 1 device
The printer has a rasterizer = 1 device

So under this license one computer and one printer = 12 devices?

Si

Yikes! This is exactly why that wording is antiquated.

Tiff, you rocked at TypeTech. Your words and tone were just the thing to put some spice in the morning's events. I'm glad that you've focused on this topic; the mythical End User had been forgotten in all the legal a**-covering.

> spice in the morning’s events

But Tiffany was on after lunch ;-) maybe the jet lag...

But it's true Tiffany's talk was great and the tone and presentation style was perfect for the subject matter and audience.

PS. Carl's talk was a good one too - in fact most of the talks were good including mine ;-)

Tiff,
Can you give us a blow-by-blow description of what various parties said to you afterwards? Feel free to leave out names if need be.

ChrisL

Just a few comments. Nothing that made me worry. I don't recall any dirty looks. I did hear from a few other people that they heard people saying the wanted to review their EULA. I did make the point that the EULA is now a selling point and they should take me seriously. Well, not in those words, but you get me.

All of the talks I managed to get to in the TechForum were very good. I look forward to being involved, in some way, next year.

Great work Tiff! We all owe you a debt of gratitude for taking this on and seeing it through.

ChrisL

Currently our EULA does not allow for modification. So what do you think of a EULA allowing modifications provided those modified fonts are sent to the original font producer and any modifications become property of the original font producer. Sort of like a closed loop open-source!

James:
I would love to see that. I hate to think of people struggling with Type 1 expert sets when some other user has already made an Opentype version with the expert built in. Everyone would benefit.

Just like with regular OSS there's a risk of the IP becoming polluted with someone else’s IP - perhaps someone will paste in some characters from another font. You'd probably need to have people fill out and sign an IP declaration form stating that modifications were all their own work.

However just getting the modified fonts back, without ever merging the mods into the shipping fonts would still be useful. It would show the designer what direction licensees are taking the fonts, and the designer could choose to follow that direction if he/she thought it would be of interest to the broader customer base.

I agree Sii. I thing the getting the fonts back is the interesting aspect of this proposal. I doubt the outside modifications would ever get incorporated, but it would be an interesting record of what was going on. One of the reasons we create opentype fonts in very large families is to anticipate most modifications the average user would do.

I think the idea is excellent as well.

Further I also think, wonder aloud maybe, if going to the opentype format will resolve many (some?) of the requests to be able to modify in the first place. As James said, it could be that those type designers that do use the OT format well -- meaning they second guess everyone's needs -- will not have any requests to begin with.

I think you are right Tiff. There will be less need for mods. There is an issue of how much value is put in by anticipating such mods so I still think some type designers will feel it isn't worth their time unless they get request for the same feature repeatedly.

ChrisL

True. But, type designers, such as James, work with the publishing industry where I would guess it is much better to spend the time while you are knee-deep in creation already to do the fiddly stuff too. No?

> modified fonts are sent to the original font producer

Sounds good.

> any modifications become property of the original font producer.

Maybe co-property.
So the two parties would have to agree to do anything with it.

hhp

Co-property wouldn't work. I wouldn't want to seek any permission from someone creating a mod on my work. I'd rather not allow it to happen in the first place than to be tied to something like that.

> I wouldn’t want to seek any permission from someone creating a mod on my work.

Why not? It just means you both have to find common ground. Is that so bad? He is after all a paying customer, and that's something to cherish. Plus it's not like the skills and talent of the guy doing the mod are worthless.

> I’d rather not allow it to happen in the first place

But that puts you back in anti-user land.

hhp

The co-property thing would be a nightmare to administer. What would James do if two or three customers sent fonts back with similar mods, say they add Vietnamese support – would this become a four-way kind of deal? What if someone made an interesting but badly executed mod, which James might at some future date implement properly – would that constitute 20:80 ownership?

The original designer should have the right to maintain control over their IP, but at their discretion they could certainly find some way to compensate a good repeat customer who provides constructive feedback, ideas and re-usable mods – I’m sure a lot of vendors do this already, through discounts and access to beta fonts.

> would that constitute 20:80 ownership?

It's not percentages, it's more like a set - I mean of people who have a say in the use of the end-result. I agree it's not very slick, but ignoring the "rights"* of people who make some contribution is unfair. I guess this all goes back to the idea of Original Contribution, where I for one think ANY font owes something to other people - and the fact that some of them are dead does not make it OK in my mind. I'm not saying fonts are public property, but I am saying we're all living on the same planet, and a font designer shouldn't belittle the value of somebody who pays money for his stuff and is interested enough to try to improve it (even if the original designers thinks it's not an improvement).

* Quotes because I don't like the usual meaning of the term, I just couldn't find a better one right now.

hhp

> I’m happy to report that several foundries are seriously
> considering what I had to say. That is not to say that
> anything will happen, but it is nice to know they understood
> what I was suggesting. [...] At that very moment I realized
> I was about to tell the industry how to run their business
> models. Talk about sudden added pressure.

Can you, or anyone who attended it, give a summary of the
ATypI EULA discussion? Was there any progress compared to
the TypeCon discussion?

A curious Karsten

It wasn't a discussion so much as several different talks about different aspects. For myself, I basically talked to the foundries from a designers point of view telling them what designers -- those of us whom are conscientious license our type -- really need in a useful EULA.