Hrant, your link is broken. But hey, it's been two months.

Anyway, I read through about half the posts in the thread Honorware and I haven't noticed anything negative.

It seems like a good idea. Although I don't see many foundry people backing it either.

What happens if I buy a font for a week. Design a logo within the week. Convert everything to outlines, cancel the "subscription" and never use the font again. My client uses the logo of course. Will that be allowed?

If it isn't, I don't see any way to enforce it. But if it is, will it make good fonts less exclusive? I think not. See below, right below.

Second question: What's preventing foundries from using technology to allow people to comp fonts?
Let us pay a small amount to download the font and try it for maybe two weeks or a month. And have the font expire after that period.

The foundries don't lose out at all, right?
I often wonder: Are foundries more worried that their fonts will become too common or that no one would use them at all?

Because this comping method gives designers far more choices. They can make interesting and appropriate type choices and that means no one font would be overused.

Does anyone see any flaws? I would really like to get the foundries' perspective on this.

I think the closest thing to solving the problem for the foundry and the consumer has been in large part met by the Letterror guys with the Letter Setter.

Check it out

What's nice about it is that you can set and buy the letters you need without buying the font. While this is a great idea, I think it could be broadened to be subscription based to the consumer.

The subscriptions could range from access to the entire library to access of 10 fonts to access of 5 fonts to access of 1 font. They could also be affected by how many characters a person could set.

Set up a tiered pricing scheme and go from there.

That way, there is no opportunity for piracy whatsoever becuase they never own the files, only the outlines in PDF. And, the consumer benefits by paying for only what they need.

Imagine MyFonts implements something like this and each foundry gets paid by usage. I think it'd be quite successful and with very little modification addresses everything that appeals to all groups that deal with this situation.

Stuart :D

Karen, try this:
http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/4102/604.html

> What happens if I buy a font for a week. Design a logo within the week. Convert everything to outlines, cancel the "subscription" and never use the font again. My client uses the logo of course. Will that be allowed?

Allowed? Yes. Ethical? No.
And that's exactly the gambit of honorware.

> I don't see any way to enforce it.

There is no enforcement. Mostly because there can't be anyway.

> good fonts

What exactly is a "good font", to the user?
Mostly one that can be used, preferably with as little guilt as possible.

> have the font expire

This is a good idea, but it also has drawbacks, and most of all: there's no way to implement it at the moment.

--

> Letter Setter

Which was notably pioneered by URW, way before them.

And LetterSetter can only work for titling. The cheap stuff.

hhp

Yes, LetterSetter is limited to titling faces . . .

However another thought would be to develop a free plug-in to Suitcase or Font Agent that would essentially allow access to fonts the user has purchased a subscription to.

The plug-in would validate the subscription online and activate the subscribed typefaces on their local CPU.

Yes, it'd have to be a hybrid (off/online) and no it wouldn't check every time you launched your computer but it'd be another route to go with this sort of thing.

Stuart :D

I actually thought of something like that a while back, and hashed out all the details I could think of. In the end though my conclusion was that large software companies (like Adobe and MS) on which such a scheme would have to rely (once you think it through) simply don't want to stop font piracy... :-/

hhp

I just checked out Extensis Suitcase Server which seems to do MOST of this quite well and has an eye toward font licensing.

http://www.extensis.com/suitcaseserver

It'd need to be modified as a plug-in for Suitcase, but could become a nice offering and I assume easy to add to the existing set of Suitcase products.

Stuart :D

> Allowed? Yes. Ethical? No.
> And that's exactly the gambit of honorware.

Do you mean then that it is NOT allowed? But that there is no way of enforcing it. So users are expected to pay more for a font when they actually use it.

This still makes sense from a user point of view, but I can see why foundries will be less than enthusiastic.

> What exactly is a "good font", to the user?
A "good font" is quite simply a font I like. If we can try fonts for a small fee, I don't have to worry about how much I eventually use it. I can try out whatever catches my fancy.

>> have the font expire

> This is a good idea, but it also has drawbacks, and most of all: there's no way to implement it at the moment.

Really? How do they do it now for demo versions of software? It can't be that hard to adapt it for fonts.

I mean that it is allowed. The reason that honoware would work is because it doesn't rely on [unenforceable] law, it relies on "automatic" ethics - which is in fact amplified by the absence of legal pressure. Trust enters the equation, to the [psychological] advantage of the font seller.

> users are expected to pay more for a font when they actually use it.

Not really. Users are expected to pay for having the font. Period. But the all-important "fudge factor" is that circumstances are relative, and there's an unwritten understanding to that effect. The ball is entirely in the user's court, which is best because life is not one-size-fits-all.

> If we can try fonts for a small fee

Sure, that's one way to look at it - whatever works for you - as long as you can sleep at nights. Humans are essentially good. That is the core assumption of honorware. So in your case if about 1/5 to 1/4 of the full price of the font is a "small fee", then we're set.

> How do they do it now for demo versions of software?

But fonts aren't really software - they're data.

And demo software has functionality disabled through internal coding. What functionalities can a font have disabled while remaining usable/testable, and more importantly, how do you get the OS (or something like ATM) to implement it? MS and Apple (and even Adobe) don't care. Honorware works because it bypasses the entire corrupt contraption, appealing directly to individual humans instead.

hhp

Strange, I thought I posted this two days ago. But it's not here, so here goes again:
_________________

Since any changes to font pricing need to be driven by the foundries, the proposed system needs to be more pro-foundry.

So Stuart's idea is brilliant. Technology is the most obvious solution to this problem.

And since you could be right about the big companies not being corrupt and therefore uninterested in working on a solution, we need a third party software developer who will sell the service to the foundries.

Some foundries will embrace it because they see an additional revenue stream from subscriptions. Some will not.

But because they start losing sales to foundries who have the subscription service,
competition will eventually force them to adopt the subscription system.

The "Humans are essentially good" argument cannot be substantiated with sufficient conviction and will not be an assumption of this subscription model.

There will be people who attempt to use the font without paying for it. We'll need to structure the pricing so that it differentiates between those who genuinely want to try out the font and those who may want to use the font for commercial projects without paying for it.

Initial thoughts on fee are something like:
You don't subscribe to the entire library. You subscribe to individual fonts.

A very low price for a first time subscription of a font, and for a short period, maybe 24 to 48 hours.

If you require a font for a longer period, you have to pay more. Basically the idea is to structure it such that, if you want the font for a month or so, you'd be better off buying the font.

But I am still undecided about the last bit.

Feel free to tear this scheme apart and point out loopholes, etc.

"But because they start losing sales to foundries who have the subscription service,
competition will eventually force them to adopt the subscription system."

I worry about this assertion, Karen. We are not talking tins of baked beans where products are identical from foundry to foundry.

Looking up through the various posts, I worry (angst, I tell you, angst!) about these thoughts about using technology to stop piracy or to implement licensing models. Look to the music industry to see how there paranoia is starting to affect users negatively. CDs that can't play on certain macs, technology restricting fair personal use, and so on.

People forget that humanity is not a homogenised lump of ethics. Yes, I am sure most of us here buy our own fonts (and our own music CDs), but some people will never do so, no matter how fairly priced the model proposed, and, rest assured, they will curcumvent any technology you wish to place in their way.

I think its just time for people to accept this, or face a never-ending arms race that ultimately does not further their cause, but pisses off us honest souls. Remind me again why I am not allowed to play a DVD bought in NYC on my DVD player in the UK?

I think we need to just get on and not worry overly about the piracy or use aspect, and concentrate on innovative licensing and ethical behaviour ourselves, and not get bogged down with technology.

The Lettersetter "Buy a word" scheme is just fantastic, IMHO.

Karen, I for one am tired of hypotheticals (at least when it comes to marketing). What can we do now?

> The "Humans are essentially good" argument cannot be substantiated with sufficient conviction

Then forget the whole thing.

--

David: right on.

hhp

Nooo, fonts are not like baked beans. They're like wine.

Lots of people can only tell red and white wine apart. For them, one red wine is as good as the next. Then there are those who can differentiate the varietal. Some can guess the vineyard and tell you who the winemaker is. Other can tell you the vintage, weather conditions and even the pruning method used.

I think fonts are a lot like that. For majority of people, one serif font is as good as the next, and then there will be those who can tell you how to differentiate Garamonds from the different foundries. Those will probably be the guys who'll want to buy fonts from a particular foundry, because each font is so different to them.

But the garden variety graphic designer whose client has asked for a "serious yet friendly" font, their best bet would be a foundry that allows them to demo fonts. And demo them for huge chunks of text.

It won't really matter which foundry the font is from. They are not looking for a specific face, just a mood. And they'll be more likely to buy it if they can try it out and show it.

It might even make it easier for them to bill their clients for it.

Designer: "I'm gonna get a new face for the publication revamp. I can only show it to you after you have bought it."
Client: "Hmm... interesting. What's wrong with the old one?" or worse "Why don't we use Arial? It's modern right?"

vs

Designer: "This is the font that I'm gonna use."
Client: "Oh that's nice."
Designer: "Glad you like it. It costs $1,500."
Client: "Hmm... interesting. Why don't we use Arial?"

OK, I didn't say it was a panacea for all type-related problems. But it is not further anti-piracy paranoia either.

It was meant to be a way for people to demo fonts. But because piracy would be one of the major considerations for the proposed (subscription) scheme, the anti-piracy blah blah was necessary.

I don't see how the honest folks would be affected. They can continue buying fonts without first trying it.

> Then forget the whole thing.
OK. Honorware is officially dead.

> Honorware is officially dead.

Not just that, civilization would be dead.
But humans are essentially good, we just need to take that to heart.

hhp

Does it matter what humans are essentially? Surely what matters, at least as far as font piracy in concerned, is what humans are accidentally. Or to put it less Thomistically: what people do is more important than what people are.

> .... without paying for it.

Sure. Now, what's the best way to reduce that?

> what people do is more important than what people are.

Important, shminportant. What do we want? If it's more money from selling fonts, it pays to realize that what people do comes largely from what they are, not some naive rigid system we've been trying to force down the throat of human nature.

hhp

I'm not certain I understand your point of view . . . My assumption was that we were exploring a method which we can distribute typefaces with an honor system in mind that will be both friendly to both the end user and foundry and something easy for both as well since the idea of a font subscriptions came up.

Generally, this is being done currently as Shareware - eg. You use this freely available font and if you use it commercially, you pay for it.

Upon further review of the first post , I see a more affordable payment method for the end user but it is predicated on smaller regular payments and only the first one is required and the remaining are on the honor system.

I think what must be defined is the "terms" of this system. Certainly there is a point in which the end user isn't comping with the fonts any longer and should purchase the font to produce a final piece with.

It's at that point we'd want compensation for the face. So, how do we accept compensation? A recurring subscription amount? A one time flat fee? A one time tiered fee?

At this point what we are looking at is a visit to a candy store where you actually get to lick each flavor as long as you wish but when you decide you're ready to "own" a peice of candy you may or may not do so at your whim.

Honorware is still pro user because there isn't an effective method to accommodate both parties. What method would you propose to the foundry? Not to be greedy, but sincerly there isn't any defined method of compensation for the foundry.

I don't agree we're debating human nature, we're simply exploring yet another distribution method and I must remind you that distribution means: ordering, payment, fulfillment. Those parts must be addressed for any distribution system to be effective.

Stuart :D

Oops, clicked twice . . . Can't delete . . .

> Certainly there is a point in which the end user isn't
> comping with the fonts any longer and should purchase the font

Sure. But that must be left to the user.

It doesn't matter what the user is doing with the font - simply because that's a volatile factor. The only reliable factor is the user's internal tendency towards ethical behavior. Trust has to come in to the equation, otherwise we lose.

> what we are looking at is a visit to a candy store where ....

No, that doesn't work.

> distribution means: ordering, payment, fulfillment

Not necessarily, and in fact this is exactly what is not working for fonts. What I'm talking about is a complete circumvention of the conventional pay-then-get ideal.

The bottom line is that you cannot antagonize those wielding the power: users.
You simply have more to gain by asking nicely.

hhp

> You simply have more to gain by asking nicely

OK, here's my fonts for free - Please pay me if you feel like it?

You're essentially suggesting donationware - It already exists so I don't quite understand the difference between that and honorware.

Stuart :D

> Please pay me if you feel like it?

No, pay me if you're ethical - big difference. Or actually, pay me as much as your personal balance of ethics/circumstances allows. Don't ignore the disparity in incomes around the globe - work with it - now that a web site is all you need to sell.

And remember that they need to pay some fraction of the price to get the font, and they get a break for paying in full at the start. Also, a font house could decide that there are benefits to full payment, like support, or free upgrades (like extended character sets and such).

The whole point of Honorware is to be flexible, without having to negotiate the price with each party - which is inefficient, and disconcerting to those who end up paying more. It's a fixed system - you can't complain about being gypped. And the seller gets what somebody would have paid anyway. In the conventional scheme, the seller either gets the full amount, or nothing - and the point is usually the latter. It's better to get something, as well as exposure, as well as users who don't feel overly guilty. Win-win, thanks to the accomodation of human reality.

On the other hand, you're right that Honorware isn't some revolutionary idea: Shareware is sort of a superset of it, but only because Shareware is way too loosely defined - it's confusing. Focusing and differentiating away from Shareware is beneficial.

Honoware charges a nominal fee for acquisition (or gives a discount for immediate full payment), optionally benefits for full payment (immediate and/or eventual), but the bulk of actual payment is up the user's circumstances/disposition - which it is anyway, hence rampant piracy. But you can't steal a gift.

hhp

>> .... without paying for it.
> Sure. Now, what's the best way to reduce that?

I was thinking of something like this:

(To recap, the font never actually resides on the user's machine. The site works with a font management software to manage the subscription as well.)

1. We need to differentiate people who really want to demo the font from those who might be up to no good.

At the risk of over simplifying,
* Really want to demo the font = having the font for a short period and subscribing to it for the first time.
* May be up to no good = subscribing to the same font again and again and having it for a longer period.

2. We need to track subscriptions to do that, so all subscribers need a user account.

3. We want to prevent people from setting up more than one account and screwing with the tracking. So give them some kind of goodies or loyalty points keep them honest. (Same concept as "gifting" in honorware, but here we rely on a mixture of greed and ethics for it to work.)

4. Pricing structure works like this (for now, but I am sure there is a proper actuary-based way to structure it.):
If you subscribe to a font for the first time and need it only for a very short period (24 / 48 hours), you pay a very small amount, maybe <5% of the full price.

If you need it for a week or so, then the subscription fee goes up to maybe about 50% of the price. This makes it cheaper for you to buy the font if you need it for a period of two weeks or so.

But this is also where foundries can decide whether they want to use the subscription model as a demo-ing tool or as a true subscription tool.
If they use it as a subscription tool then they can have a flat monthly rate, higher than the preferential first month demo rate.

Right now, I'm trying to find loopholes in this (subscription) model, so you'll have to ignore that fact that none of this is technologically possible right now.

> The bottom line is that you cannot antagonize those wielding the power: users.
You simply have more to gain by asking nicely.
From where I am, it looks like the foundries are the guys wielding the power and they won't let us try out the fonts before buying them. They're saying here's how abecedary look at 48pts, and here's The quick brown fox... at 24 points. Now buy it if you like it. And really, that sucks.

> What do we want?
I just want to comp fonts the way I use them, not in an artifical, no-kerning, limited character environment. It's not the money I'm after, but I need to convince the foundries that there is more money in it for them when they allow people to try out their fonts, even for a short period.

After reading your description of honorware point again, I am starting to see your point. But you face an insurmountable task of convincing foundries to adopt the honorware system.

That's why I came up with this convoluted, currently impossible system. If we are convinced that it'll work, then there's money to be made by the software developer as well, someone like Extensis Suitcase. All that's left to do it to convince someone to build it. But we first need to know whether or not a scheme like this could work.

Btw, how do I colour my text red?

I use both stuffit and zipit which both pop up register messages every time I use them. I use them for a professional purpose and I keep meaning to register them and pay the tiny $15 fee.

But in 8 months of using it I keep clicking past the message and thinking

Hey Tiff! Thanks for that!
Btw, has the alphabetty board been removed?

I am so pleased to see smart people thinking about this important problem.

\redopenbrackettextclosedbracket

text

Correct link to previous thread:
http://typophile.com/node/8554

hhp

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7445777.stm
Personally I think 38% (towards the end) isn't half bad, so to speak.

More:
http://www.comscore.com/press/release.asp?press=1883
http://www.comscore.com/blog/2007/11/comscore_radiohead_study.html

"But":
http://mashable.com/2007/11/09/radiohead-comscore/

hhp

ok, so i skimmed this thread, has anyone tried 'honourware'?

i know i as a customer would love to take advantage of it.

i see it as a bit like a lay-by, heck, maybe even a lay-by for fonts would be cool, then i can just pay a weekly/fortnightly/monthly ammount and get the fonts at the end...

the only snag is that when i purchase ti's usually cause i want the fonts for an immediate project...

oh well, i like this idea.

It's not a lay-away (what we call it 'round these parts).
You get the font as soon as you make the first payment.

hhp

yeah, i got that, i was just proposing another solution that would mean people pay the type designer the full amount.

do you know if anyone has starting using a model like this?

{Before editing this was before Simon's most recent post.}

I don't know of anybody doing it yet. Maybe because it seems too complicated, and a seller will either want all the money up front or none of it ever. But the complexity of the honorware model is: a reflection of the complexity of human nature; and implicit, not explicit, meaning that it's structurally pretty simple, and deep down only as complex as a given case needs it to be.

In that other thread* Ray claims that small font families don't seem to benefit much from the giving away of one style; in such cases the honorware model might be the best way to give sales a push.

* http://typophile.com/node/54558

hhp

yeah, you're right it could really work there.

My idea: distribute a font with some intentional defects, but full metrics, for free, and provide a pay-per-converted-letter (maybe multiplied by letter size) conversion facility on the net that will substitute the free letters in ps or pdf files with the commercial letters. There might also be an option to subscribe for some period, and different prices for commercial/non-commercial use, discounts for longer texts etc. -- cs

as someone who buys fonts, that sounds way to difficult to use.