Awesome!

Just a question... does the TDC generate money from the book or traveling exhibition(s) of the winning submissions?

n.

The Type Directors Club is the leading international organization whose purpose is to support excellence in typography, both in print and on screen. Founded in 1946 by some of the industry’s leading practitioners, the TDC’s earliest membership included Aaron Burns, Will Burtin, Freeman Craw, Louis Dorfsman, Gene Federico, Edward M. Gottschall, Herb Lubalin, Edward Rondthaler, Bradbury Thompson, and Hermann Zapf. With this solid historical background, the TDC today represents the best of today’s type design and type use.

The TDC holds two yearly type competitions: one for the use of type and the letterform in design and the other, typeface design. The winners are reproduced in our Typography Annual, published by HarperCollins Publishers, as well as displayed in seven exhibits that travel worldwide. In addition to celebrating outstanding achievements, the typography competitions and resulting annuals serve as important historical records of typographic trends, and are an invaluable resource for both designers and scholars.

Education has always been an important part of the Type Directors Club’s mission. The TDC began offering lectures in 1947, the second year of the Club’s existence. Called Ten Talks on Type, the lectures were given by James Secrest, Arnold Bank, Gene Ettenberg, Charles Felton, Milton Zudeck, O. Alfred Dickman, Joseph Weiler, Frank Powers, and Hal Zamboni. The series’ success led to it becoming an annual event. In 1958, the Club extended its reach to an international day-long seminar at the Silvermine Artists Guild in New Canaan, Connecticut, which drew 500 attendees.

In 1959, the TDC ran Typography USA at the Biltmore Hotel in Manhattan. Speakers included Saul Bass, Herbert Bayer, Lester Beall, Will Burtin, Lou Dorfsman, Alvin Eisenmann, Gene Federico, William Golden, Allen Hurlburt, Leo Lionni, Herb Lubalin, Paul Rand, Ladislav Sutnar, and Bradbury Thompson.

Among the many speakers and teachers in the intervening years have been Aaron Burns, Klaus Schmidt, Ed Gottschall, Tom Carnase, Bruno Brugnatelli, Milton Glaser, Hermann Zapf, Eileen Hedy Schultz, Ed Benguiat, Olaf Leu, Martin Solomon, Günter Gerhard Lange, and Freeman Craw.

The current lecture and class schedule offered by the TDC continues apace. The Education Committee has been developing course offerings at all levels of proficiency that reflect today’s needs and interests, and the Event Committee continues scheduling monthly Type Salons in our Manhattan space.

The TDC is the home for typography—a physical meeting place and a strong professional affiliation. We welcome all in advertising, communications, education, marketing, and publishing who have a keen interest in type and the written word: graphic designers, art directors, editors, multimedia professionals, students, and entrepreneurs.

The TDC is a not for profit organization.

Thanks for the reply, I'll take that as a yes.

n.

Those are some good judges!

hhp

Am I correct in reading that I pay to enter, and if I win, I pay again?

That's my point Chris. I was a Governor of a national not-for-profit organization so I know a lot about the sort of parameters within which the TDC can operate.

Hence my question...

Just a question... does the TDC generate money from the book or traveling exhibition(s) of the winning submissions?

Notice I didn't get a direct answer to my question.

And did I miss the TDC's early bird post?

n.

Indeed punishing the winners is the first thing I would change. I've been saying that since the late 90s.

hhp

Since the late 90s? Hm.

If this org is anything that I'm familiar with I would say that the TDC is perpetual financial woes ...in fact they might be in a downward spiral. These sort of orgs have two main problems. Firstly it looks inward ...instead of looking outward. Secondly it has an arrogance that comes from a time when it was the only show in town. And, it may very well be top heavy.

Just sayin'

n.

It's been around for a while, and it has some great members. Financial troubles come and go - that doesn't really determine the core spirit of what is essentially a cultural organization.

Much of my own exposure to the TDC has been via James Montalbano, which is of course pretty limiting. Now that James has gone postal I'm interested to see how perceptions -if only my own- will change. And hopefully they'll figure out ways to improve their competitions (like give the judges much more time).

hhp

BTW Graham, could you explain the "experimental" category? Is that something new?

hhp

Sure thing, experimental and unpublished categories were introduced in last years competition. We are intrigued to see what folks are coming up with when not toiling on client paying work.

Charging a nominal publication/hanging fee on the winners work enables us to keep the initial entry fee price down which we hope encourages more entries.

The TDC entry fees are very competitive with the other award organizations.

Sorry to show up unannounced.

One of my colleagues tipped me off to this thread. I see not much has changed since I "went postal". Is that what it is Hrant? Deciding that reading your endless shit is "going postal" well if that is the case I'm surprised that the majority of the folks here have not "gone postal" already.

Regarding "improving" the competition. Aren't you always going on about improving this or that? No skin off of your ass huh. Regarding the judges needing more time. This has been one of your idiot obsessions for years now. Hasn't it? Every year at the end of the competition, I ask the judges, "Did you have enough time." Their answer, every year is "Yes. Plenty of time, no reason to change the way this goes."

Weren't you going to organize some special type design competition? I remember you going on and on about it a while ago. What happened? Too real for you?

Graham, FYI I myself am only focusing on the type design part.

keep the initial entry fee price down which we hope encourages more entries.

If you don't mind let's do the math (although roughly). Last year there were 173 entries and 13 winners. Choosing a mid-range entry (Type Family, Non-Member) this year's entry fee is $110 and the publication/hanging fee is $100. If you split 13 × $100 = $1,300 into 173 you get $7.51. So if you charged $118 (instead of $110) to enter but did not charge a publication/hanging fee you'd about break even.

Now, I have to agree that charging $8 more might reduce the number of entries, but maybe not worrying about the $100 fee for winning might offset that. But most of all: it's more straight-forward, more honest; right now it really feels like a "hidden cost" to some people (even though I admit it's not really hidden).

hhp

If the incremental money is really funding the publication and hanging of the winners' works, it seems "more straightforward, more honest" to me to have those costs borne by those winners, rather than subsidized by the losers who get nothing out of it.

It's a competition: losers aren't supposed to be rewarded, and winners aren't supposed to be punished. It's not the US tax system. :-)

The one thing a loser should -and does- get is anonymity.

BTW I can't think of any other type design competition that has ever charged winners anything. Is it common practice in other types of design competitions?

hhp

Personally, I’ve always felt competitions cheapen the profession. I don’t remember the last time I saw a surgery competition. And who would the judges be? The test patients ;P

If not adverse to paying my share ...just as long as TDC doesn't profit or gain, in any form, from the publication or the traveling exhibition of the winner work/property. Hence my original question. Why should I be /forced/ to pay for your profit/gain.

Can I opt out of the publication and traveling exhibitions?

That would be my choice ...I've already won the prize ...and I opt out of the publication and the traveling road show.

Take the cash and run!!!

n.

Why should I be /forced/ to pay for your profit/gain.

Well, you're not forced to enter the competition. And I don't think anybody expects you to enter to make the TDC better off; people expect you to enter hoping to get something out of it. You know, a mutually-beneficial gambit.

BTW, I do think "the TDC is a not for profit organization" is a pretty good answer to your question.

Can I opt out of the publication and traveling exhibitions?

Officially, yes. But from what I understand (at least as of the last time I managed to "extract" the info) no winner has ever done that. So I guess that scenario hasn't been tested - but if push comes to shove I'd expect the TDC to exclude you lest it sets a damaging precedent.

BTW, there's no cash - it's strictly fame & glory.

hhp

BTW, there's no cash - it's strictly fame & glory.

hhp

Madness!!!

n.

> I don’t remember the last time I saw a surgery competition

True, but in the medical world there are various levels of certification, but in the U.S. there is no certification for designers; anyone can call themself a designer. So I think some professionals view awards as something to show clients as a way of validating their abilities. Contest fees are part of the cost of doing business.

I have no idea why Graham can't answer a direct question, but I'll share my understanding from the outside.

The entry fees cover the expenses of bringing the judges together for judging, which presumably include airfare, hotel and meals for those who are outside NYC.

The winners' fees contribute towards the expenses of mounting the traveling exhibit and showing it at other conferences and locations. For example, the TDC award winners are typically shown in a huge display at both TypeCon (somewhere in the US) and ATypI (somewhere else in the world).

As ATypI Treasurer, I can attest that ATypI pays a goodly chunk of the costs of getting the exhibit to our conference (this year was Hong Kong). However, my recollection is that we aren't normally covering all the costs. For example, the costs of actually printing each entry out as a big full-color poster....

@ Mr. Dean:
Personally, I’ve always felt competitions cheapen the profession.

So, what kind of measurements don't cheapen the profession?

Thanks Thomas, I'm cool with whatever... I understand it's all a labor of love anyways.

Hey Graham, into which category should I enter a sculpture? Communication Design seems right. And for a historical reference ...think artist Robert Indiana's LOVE sculpture.

Even though I'll have to pony up for the Jan. 15the submission deadline ...I think it's time to raise the bar.

n.

At the moment Graham is at an emergency meeting. He and all of the TDC Board are in a secret bunker dealing with sensitive global typographic issues. As a past president of the TDC I have been asked to answer.

The expenses don't go to offset the cost of THE traveling exhibit, they go to offset the costs of ALL the traveling exhibits, several of which travel around the world for several years, finally coming to rest at various places for permanent display. So the winner's hanging fees pay for the winning entries exposure via the traveling exhibits and publication in the annual "Typography". Quite a bargain when on thinks of the monthly cost of a full-page ad in one of the design magazines.

@5star
If the sculpture is typographic in nature then enter it in Communications Design. If the sculpture is a set of letters that can be manipulated enter it into the Typeface Design.

The Typeface Design competition is exactly that, it is not a Font Software competition.

Good luck.

As a former winner of two, count 'em, two TDC awards, I can attest to the value of the cachet which attends such honors: they essentially launched my professional career. 'Nuff said?

@charles_e: An honest day’s wage for an honest day’s work.

It seems to me that the questions for potential entrants are simply 'Do you think the possible kudos and exposure from being selected in the TDC competition(s) is worth the investment of the entry fee?' and 'Do you think being selected and having your work shown in the travelling exhibitions and the TDC annual is worth the investment of the hanging fee?' If the answer to either of these questions is 'No', or if you have a philosophical objection to competitions in general, don't enter. Clearly, the answer for many people is 'Yes', and the TDC competitions have been successful for many years.

Thanks James, Comm. D. it is then...

He and all of the TDC Board are in a secret bunker dealing with sensitive global typographic issues.

lol

n.

Since there are also questions being answered:

I wonder, I might have something to send this year (or otherwise next) but your fee system is a bit confusing: I have a typeface which can also be layered, should this count as a single entry? (since it is, the glyphs are stylistically not different, but can add up for an extra effect)

Paying almost double for just this effect seems strange to me, since it's not really a family.

I think the normal pricing isn't that bad looking at other competitions.

@Arthus
Your layered entry sounds like a single entry, since individual pieces cannot exist by themselves.
If it is published/released in 2012 then it has to be entered this year. If you hold off until 2013 then it should be entered next year.

My advice to you and all entrants is to make your entry samples look as good as you can and show off the typeface in its very best light. Over the years I've seen so many entries fail because whoever put them together did the most minimum job. Just showing a character set is never going to get you very far, yet many entries do just that. A pity really.

And with that please refrain from the "All entries should be on a common template and exactly the same". That was done the first year of the competition and I cannot tell you what a mind-numbing hell that was for the judges. The rules give the entrant wide latitude in creating the submission. If you are not a good typographer, by all means have a good typographer help you with the submission.

It's entirely natural for a judge to be more amenable to selecting a typeface with a flashy specimen, but especially for a text face I think the onus is on the judges to figure out if it's actually good (although I agree that a simple charset is of course not enough). I don't think entrants should be punished for not having great skills in using type (or not being able to get such help) because that's not what the award is for. So it might be good to provide a decent template (maybe even require it) but also allow entrants to add anything they want. FWIW this is how the Granshan competition does it.

hhp

I have a question about showing a full character set. As I could understand from the rules one style should be placed on a single page of A3 format and there should be both character set and examples of using typeface. So what to do if the character set is large and you have a display font? There's simply no space on the one page of A3 format. So is it possible to take 2 pages for the style or should I show a reduced character set? And what is more important (if I have to reduce something) a character set or examples of using?And if I use my type also in illustrations can I include it as an example?

If the typeface is not presented in a way that allows the judges to see how it functions then they cannot judge its value.

It is not an alphabet drawing contest.

Doing everything one can to present the entry in the best light is in the best interest of the entrant. I never said the specimen needed to be "flashy". It only needs to present the typeface in the best possible light.

For a text typeface, a well-set nicely spaced block of text would be appropriate. Setting a text typeface in text sizes would also be appropriate and necessary. A display design would require some display settings at display sizes.

@Yulia
Use as many pages as you feel is necessary to present the typeface in the best way.

Thank you for the answer! And if I send a type system is it allowed to show text and display faces in use together? And is it necessary for all styles have the same character set or different sets are also allowed? Sorry for so many questions, I'm thinking of participation for the first time.

Thanks for the clarification! Also the 'as many pages' is a welcome clarification, I didn't know that.

My release isn't in my hands so that's why I was still not sure about this our next year, but yes I want to show it from it's best angle. Thankfully I have quite a few possibilities for specimen use.

I must add about the layering: It doesn't have to be layered, but it's an extra feature which broadens the usability of the typeface. In that regard I could agree it's an extra 'style'. But since there is no change to the glyphs themselves except for which part is 'filled' I'd say it's still the same.

@Yulia
You are the designer. If you have determined that the text and display designs have different character sets, so be it. And yes, show the text and display being used together. Show the entire system off to the best of your ability.

Hi Graham,

Just wanted to know when submitting an entry in the packaging design category (Communication Design), is it ok if the images entered are 3D renders of the pack and not photographs of the pack itself? Reason being, the packs are distributed in another city and the contents are perishable (milk). So I can't get hold of the product to shoot it.

Thanks,
Sulekha

Graham is still in the typographic bunker.

Sulekha, If it is impossible to provide photographs of the packing then a high quality 3D rendering would be acceptable.

Graham, thank you for the answer, and could you also explain the procedure of payment, please? I haven't any credit card so I'm going to make a money order. It is written in the rules that If payment is made by money order it must be drawn on a U.S. bank. I'm not in the USA and does it mean that I have to find a department of a US bank in my city and send a payment to the TDC address (347 West 36th St. Suite 603 • New York NY 10018 USA)? Or should I send my order to some special US bank where TDC has an account (and then where to find out the requisites of it)? I can't understand it, please help to clear out. I want to be sure that my order will reach the right address.

Юля, drop me a line off-list, okay?

Graham is still in the typographic bunker.

This typographic bunker is beginning to intrigue me...

n.

@Yulia: Please have financial discussions with banking information &c privately.

"This typographic bunker is beginning to intrigue me..."

Everyone should have one. I have seven cans of dehydrated quads and five boxes of smoked line-to's, in mine.

Further information regarding what the "Publication/Hanging" fees pay for

TDC traveling exhibits.
There are seven (7) traveling shows.
North America
England/France
Germany
Spain
Russia
Japan
Asia

That and publication in the annual "Typography"

Sure. Just bump up the entry fee by $8 and that way people -who are only entering because they think they can win- get a more realistic feeling (that's all it is) for what they're agreeing to.

BTW it would be gracious -not to mention conducive to [even] better results- to make it easier for non-Americans to enter. For one thing not everybody can get their credit card to work... ;-)

hhp

If there were no entry/hanging fee, would the additional submissions make for more publishable content = more sales of the “Typography” publication?

Only the winners are published, and they might not want too many winners, so not necessarily.

hhp

Perhaps they could change who is published? Just making up ideas. Myself, I’d be more likely to spend money on an issue with the top 100, and the winners, than just the winners.

Losers don't like that fact advertised.

hhp

Possible, but I’m thinking to myself, “I’m a young student, I didn’t win, but I still get to see my work in print…” That’s not entirely implausible.

Chris, Hrant

You should start you own competition and bring all your ideas to fruition.

Good luck to all the entrants. I'm done here.

Re. the Typography annual: I really wish there were an off-print version that contained only the winners of the type design competition. The books are thick, and mostly filled with graphic design work that is of no interest to me personally. I can't justify giving them bookshelf space, so donate most volumes to our local library, and send any containing my own work to my mother, the Hudson family archivist.

I'd really like to have a slim publication that just showed the winners of the type design competition each year, for which I would gladly find shelf space. Collectively, they would represent an important record of developing trends in type design over the past couple of decades.

I second that!

hhp

Everyone should have one. I have seven cans of dehydrated quads and five boxes of smoked line-to's, in mine.

Once again I see that I am left with playing ketchup. Alrighty then....

Dear Santa,

All I want for this Christmas is a Typophile Bunker. In the center of the bunker I would like an aquarium stocked full with Rainbow Squids ...from which I could ask for my inks or course. And I would also like a small forest of Mulberry trees ...from which a could produce my paper. Songs birds that know every song ever (including all of James Brown hits) ...and I would also like to have a couple of the funniest lions as friends.

Thanks!

Milk and cookies await.

n.

FYI:
http://www.tdc.org/tdc-typeface-design-winners-2013/

Congrats to John, Tim and Frode!

Some questions:
- Will we get to see online samples?
- Was Brill substantially improved in 2012?
- For the Judge Choice selections, is it possible to find out who picked what? The TDC did include that info in previous years.
- Looking at #6: why would the KABK not commission one -or all- of its fabulous (I don't mean that at all sarcastically) type design teachers to make their typeface?

hhp

Was Brill substantially improved in 2012?

Improved over what? The official release date of the family was November 2012. Earlier, beta versions of the roman and italic were available, but the formal release wasn't until the bold weights were added, and timed to coincide with the beginning of Brill's 330th anniversary celebrations at the Boerhaave Museum, 9 November 2012.

I didn't realize all the previous versions were betas.

hhp

Brill started working with trial versions of the roman and italic in Summer 2011, but their CEO didn't want to make any official release until the bold and bold italic weights were finished (with which I had help from Alice Savoie last year). So the finalised EULA, official website, etc. were all prepared for the launch of the anniversary celebrations last November. Unusually for a typeface design, Brill gave the project a lot of publicity while it was in progress, in their company reports and at book fairs and conferences, so that might be why it seems to have been around longer. It's been a part of my life since 2008!

It's one of the very few fonts that works well both in big and small sizes.

- Looking at #6: why would the KABK not commission one -or all- of its fabulous (I don't mean that at all sarcastically) type design teachers to make their typeface?

Dave Foster was a student of KABK. «Client: KABK» probably means he designed the typeface as a student project.

Ah (thanks).
Let me update the Clients section of my résumé then... ;-)

hhp

[Punishing, postal, and ungracious all may look “normal” written here, but just to be clear, that is not the TDC way in my experience. In fact, I don’t know anyone who’s been involved either as entrant, winner, loser, adviser, caterer, participant, or judge, who share these terms in describing it or its competition. Thanks!]

From what I've seen the TDC -which must certainly be greater than any of its individual members- consistently does fabulous work, and I think we're very lucky to have this type design competition. FWIW over the years I've very rarely seen a winner that I for one thought didn't deserve it. But anyway if we all agreed on everything life would be dead.

That said, nobody/nothing is perfect, and to me it just seems to make sense to raise the entry fee by a few dollars to avoid charging the winners extra.

As an aside, to me it also makes sense to admit (at least to oneself) and thereby not defend (not even tacitly) the punishing, postal and ungracious behavior of a personal friend and/or someone with whom one merely shares a -perceived- antagonist.

hhp

"But anyway if we all agreed on everything life would be dead."

Is that so? Subtracting the posts trolled in by the usual rebels-without-a-clue, folks who wanted answers came in, asked their questions, got responses and did their thing. I'd say "that's life".

Really, David? I'm not even allowed to say it's OK that people disagree?

And in turn you see nothing wrong with the way James has historically behaved, online in general and on Typophile in particular? Do you have zero space in your heart for even-handedness?

BTW if we assume that the TDC competition isn't perfect (since nothing is perfect) there's no way to know how it can be improved without engaging in discourse; you can never know who didn't get their answers, who ended up not submitting a worthy design. It's a classic delusion to accuse people who voice a complaint of being the only ones with that complaint. Specifically here I know for a fact that I'm not the only one who thinks charging the winners extra is a bad idea; I'm just the one of the few who sees value in bringing it up in public.

hhp

Hrant: BTW if we assume that the TDC competition isn't perfect ... there's no way to know how it can be improved without engaging in discourse

Its also worth pointing out that you -- and I, for that matter -- have no way to know everything that is involved in the reckoning of the TDC competition planning, finances, etc.. We don't know all the factors. We don't know what other options have been considered and rejected because they didn't add up.

As a winner, I find the hanging fee is a minor element of the overall cost: very minor compared to the cost of producing the required panels and getting them delivered to the TDC. That is the real financial hit for winners, and one that entrants had better be aware of when making a submission.

You're right that I/we don't know. Hence the usefulness of asking (and the value of transparency). For example two of my four points above have yet to be addressed, and there's no way I'm the only one wondering. Nobody should be very upset over unanswered questions in a case like this, but it remains a missed opportunity.

The hanging fee would be a minor/worthwhile expense for me too. And yes, entrants should be aware of it. But to me it still does more harm than good; it just seems mildly perverse to charge more to people whose work you think deserves recognition. So: is instead raising the entry fee by ~$8 worse or better?

BTW this isn't the biggest problem I see with this competition, it's just by far the easiest one to fix. You've mentioned something worthwhile too: publishing the TDC2 results separately. I hope they consider that idea seriously (and don't attack you for voicing it).

hhp

"I'm just the one of the few who sees value in bringing it up in public."

[Special few]

So, chosen one, besides the unhidden hidden fee being less hidden, making the judges with whom you've rarely disagreed spend more time, charging everyone more to enter, and hoping for improved perceptions of TDC by yourself and others now that James is no longer helping so domineeringly with the contest, and even if you are not even a member, and just want to stir up unwarranted distrust and suspicion using your freedom in public... you should write to Carol, who I'm sure you know, because she might help you change things as a non-member type designer helping other non-member type designers more easily make up the rules to best help them enter this type design contest for the most benefit to themselves, and everyone else you represent. That is the "value" to which you refer, I hope.

I'm not special.

I don't want to stir up anything except improvement in type, and I think the TDC and its competition play a big role in that. For a smart guy you sure can't figure me out.

Even stupid people know that the most effective way to put pressure (even positive pressure) on organizations/people is to do it in public. And my opinions are just ideas out there, no matter who I am, and whether I'm a TDC member or not. Do you really believe that paying for membership makes people take you much more seriously? Do you take me seriously on the ATypI list? TDC membership isn't exactly the Scientology $100K requirement for going Level 2.

hhp

"I'm not special."

Any other xp-based, bitmap lovin', monarchists (before they read this post), please stand up.

"I don't want to stir up anything except improvement in type, ..."

Well, you've been dealing your death chop insults in public to the TDC since the mid-90's? that's almost 15 years now... FWIW, BTW IMHO, that ain't workin'.

"...and I think the TDC and its competition play a big role in that."

It's a great contest, but "a big role" is a baguette. And if you cut that baguette into the same number of pieces there are excellent typeface made per year, there are not enough crumbs to go around, by a long shot. So, I disagree.

"Even stupid people know that the most effective way to put pressure (even positive pressure) on organizations/people is to do it in public."

There is a difference between public pressure, and public insults. Like, if you call me stupid in private, that's fine, I'd even welcome it. But when you say it in public, I tend take it more seriously. And if you really want to Effectively Pressure People in Public, you not only have to know what you're talking about, but you'd better be right.

"Do you really believe that paying for membership makes people take you much more seriously?"

Me? It doesn't matter. Read my post again, it was for you.

I'm bemused by the notion that comments in a Typophile thread constitute applying pressure on an organisation. It may sometimes be true. It may sometimes be like calling the patients in the asylum common room a lobbyist thinktank.

So bummed I missed this! Is it an annual competition?

Yes.