To my eye,the word 'SAINT' is much too spread out relative to the word HOUSE. In fact, I just measured and on my screen it's about 10% larger! Similarly, RUM is has too much space relative to BAR. And they are far from "perfectly centered". RUM starts about 44mm to the left of the center of the crest, while BAR ends 39mm to its right. The only thing that's "centered" is the right edge of the M and the left edge of the B. Stop looking at individual letters and look at the visual effect of the logo as a whole.

- Herb

I think the struggle has been how to center around the crest and whether the words saint and house should be equal width (which is difficult with out altering this font)

Depending on what you're using, you should be able to move each element (letter) completely separately. You are not creating text with a font - you're creating a graphic design with design elements, some of which just happen to look like letters of the english alphabet. Do NOT use whatever kerning or letterspacing is inherent in the font- it is completely irrelevant to your task at hand.

You'd probably be better off opening your logo in a program like Adobe Illustrator or Corel Draw, converting the text to curves, grouping each element, and then sliding each design element or groups of elements around until they fit and look right.

- Herb

Yes, Nick, there ARE many ways to skin a cat. But esigns that are significantly unbalanced are more psychologically acceptable than those that are only a LITTLE off; it's clear that that's the way they're meant to be. When something is just a little off, it looks like a mistake. That's why both versions of The Times' nameplate look fine, while "Saint House" just looks slightly askew.

Then I suppose the question still stands - does it make sense to try and make saint and house equidistant with the crest in the center - and align rum bar centered to that.. that was I was going to attempt to do, but was struggling visually to make that happen. Yes it's all curves and i'm using illustrator CS5

My inclination would be to sort the HOUSE kerning (the HO combination is a little too tight); then work on SAINT to a similar visual amount of kerning; then work on the spaces either side of the device (the T• is a bit loose thanks to the open space under the bar).

Then, when it is in use, centre on the device not on the overall width (you might want to drop in an invisible exclusion area box to make life easier).

Tim

It would be useful to consider the logo in situ, which is one inference to be drawn from the Times comparison.

Thanks a ton timd - this excellent advice and helps me wrap my brain around it. I am unclear as to what "an invisible exclusion area box" is. I so appreciate the assistance.

In the illustrator file create a box with no fill and no stroke, centred on the logo device, make it larger than the logo. The area surrounding the logo into which no other graphic element or text should intrude – the exclusion area, this surround could be based on half the height of one of the characters or maybe the height of the device.

When you import it into InDesign, for example, and size it and centre it in a picture box, it will position the device on the centre line because it uses the invisible box to centre.

Tim

thank you so much for your suggestion - you understood what i was poorly asking.. will post results after this weekend.

@timd / @HVB - thanks - I revised and uploaded a new version please take a look. Those suggestions were super helpful.