...

Even though I like neither Bodoni nor ITC, I have to admit that ITC Bodoni is a notable font, mostly because of its optical sizes... which is exactly the sort of refinement ITC is not known for doing, especially not back when they were considered trendsetters. (Shudder.)

ITC bashing is done by people of all age groups, as long as they have an eye for good type. On the other hand, some people who do have an eye for good type are unable to see the ITC fonts of the previous generation as the abominations that they are, presumably because they were influentiable youths when that crap was coming out. ITC Garamond for example isn't just dated, it's a date from hell.

--

BTW, another very interesting Bodoni is Linotype Gianotten - a very scholarly work.

hhp

There's nothing wrong with ITC type, per se -- it's just a product of its time. Unfortunately for ITC Garamond (and others), that time happened to be the '70s.

Bodoni on the other hand is one that ITC got right. (Or at least, got most recently.) It represents an entirely different mindset from the ITC type that most folks bash.

Most digital Bodonis are nearly illegible at text sizes -- the thicks are too thick and the thins vanish. But the 6-point and 12-point versions of ITC Bodoni are both beautiful and usable.

Of course, just like bellbottoms came back into fashion, perhaps exaggerated x-heights will become the new black. Only time will tell.

Makes sense.

> bellbottoms

Or better, platform shoes, since they can cause you to trip when walking, like obese x-heights can can cause you to trip when reading. In fact, type design has strong parallels to shoemaking.

hhp

As Bodoni-inspired faces go, I'm quite partial to Zuzana Licko's Filosofia. I rather enjoy the softness of the serifs in contrast to the razor-edged versions found in many digital Bodonis (although I've heard this aspect of Filosofia described by others as 'mushiness'). Truthfully, the italic OS figures give my the tinglies, and the Unicase is one of my favourite stand-alone display faces. Of course, your mileage may vary.

This is all extremely helpful. I didn't expect such a good response... thanks! I very much appreciate it.

ITC Bodoni Six:
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/itc-bodoni-six/

ITC Bodoni Twelve:
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/itc-bodoni-twelve/

ITC Bodoni Seventytwo:
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/itc-bodoni-seventytwo/

ITC Bodoni Seventytwo Swash:
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/agfa/bodoni-sev-swash-itc/

ITC Bodoni Ornaments:
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/bodoni-ornaments-itc/

While I agree that ITC Bodoni is the strongest and most historically accurate Bodoni (and probably the best), I'd also urge you to at least consider Berthold Bodoni Antiqua and Berthold Bodoni Old Face.

Berthold Bodoni Antiqua & Expert:
http://www.bertholdtypes.com/adobe_lib/080224000.html

http://www.bertholdtypes.com/adobe_lib/080268000.html

Berthold Bodoni Old Face & Expert:
http://www.bertholdtypes.com/adobe_lib/080304000.html

http://www.bertholdtypes.com/adobe_lib/080310000.html

While not as historically accurate or as versatile in optical sizing, the Berthold Bodonis are nonetheless also very textworthy. The Old Face designs offer a nice alternative to the common Bodonis, and the Old Face Italics are particularly beautiful. Bringhurst recommends Berthold Bodoni in The Elements of Typographic Style (p. 207) as well as the Bauer Bodoni designs, but this, admittedly, was probably before ITC released their cut.

I haven't yet used ITC Bodoni, but I've had good results with Berthold Bodoni. ITC Bodoni is on my wish list, though.

David

John Coltz recently wrote about ITC Bodoni in daidala.

And while the ITC issue would be my first choice, David makes a good case for Berthold Bodoni Old Face. The latter has a full complement of f-ligatures, and its numerals have that nice modulation. For a good text sample, pick up an issue of Atlantic Monthly on the newsstand.

Jon

Not that it matters for digital setting, but Bauer had the best Bodoni in hot metal, next to the original that is.

BTW, anyone know how much a copy of the real Manuale Tipografico costs? I have the Octavo edition, but someday, needs be I must own the real thing.

Try bookfinder.com - you might be surprised.

hhp

BTW, anyone know how much a copy of the real Manuale Tipografico costs? I have the Octavo edition, but someday, needs be I must own the real thing.

There are two good, two-volume facsimile editions available. One from the Holland Press, 1960 (edition of 500), usually sells for $300 - $400 US. The more desirable facsimile is the one printed by Mardersteig at the Officina Bodoni in Verona, 1968 (edition of 206), which sells for anywhere from $2,000 - $4,000. There is also a third facsimile edition published by Ricci in Italy in 1965, but I have never seen it; Ricci is a serious publisher, so it could be good. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other facsimile editions.

To find the price of an original, you would need to check the book auction records.

We agree that ITC Bodoni is the best, but, its not the "usual image" of a Bodoni, those all magazines used over the century. And it can be a problem is some applications.

Tiffany, rather than list the families you have, I think you should start a list of the ones you don't have yet :-P

You seems have spent so much money on fonts already?

Not at all. You should be proud.

Tiffany makes a good point, though. The best
Bodoni (or the best face in general) is the one
that's most appropriate for the job. There are
some jobs for which I use Berthold Bodoni Old
Face, and others for which I use HTF Didot and
still others for which Linotype Didot is best.
(Both Didot cuts are also excellent fonts
to consider in the genre of didone types.
I often prefer them to Bodoni.)

HTF Didot:
http://www.typography.com/catalog/didot/index.html

Linotype Didot:
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/didot/

David

Having said that, though, HTF Didot is better
than Linotype Didot at small sizes, as HTF Didot
has a range of optical sizes as well.

Had some trouble with ITC Bodoni. Found that the "12" was a bit clunky at the 14-18 size (in a corporate brochure, plenty of leading, coated stock), and the "72" was too small-featured. But that's what I ended up using. Had to track it out a bit. Could have done with something in between.

Prior to ITC Bodoni, c. 1990, I had combined Bauer Bodoni for display with Berthold Bodoni for text -- a pseudo-optical pairing. (Did the same thing with Old Style 7 and Monotype Old Style.)

Those are the only Bodonis I've used, except of course for Bodoni Egyptian...

Hello. My name is Ben and I've used Bodoni 6 at display sizes...

(sigh) My name is Tony and I've used Trebuchet at 18" for a department sign. It started small, like Times at 128 pt., but that was just a gateway . . .

I quite like the italic v and w in Franko Luin's Bodoni Classico from Linotype, not to be confused with FF Bodoni Classic, which has some great display variants and ornaments. I still like GGL's Bodoni Old Face the best. Best zeros anywhere.

I could narrow down my recommendation further, Troy, if you could describe what the point size and materials you're aiming to use it in.

I love Jonathan's Didot as well; my copy of Serif 5 has served as an occasional, surrogate drool bucket. Pity...

(But do you think we could coax Jonathan into producing small caps for it? Gentle peer pressure??)

Jon

...and speaking of Bodoni masquerading as a display face... how about a little Perla?

Eww, ugly unicase, ugly unicase... The characters look nice on their own, but placed together like that...it's offensive.

:gives Tiffany a coupon for new glasses:


:runs:

};-)

My problem with unicase fonts (in particular such variants in families) is simply that the time is generally better spent on almost anything else.

hhp

>My problem with unicase fonts (in particular such variants in families) is simply that the time is generally better spent on almost anything else.

I agree with you that Unicase fonts in families generally tend to be uninspired. Just made by combining character forms from the upper and lower case. But that was not the case (sorry) with Perla.

However, the questioning of glyph shapes that we are seeing these days is part of the tenor of the times. The pendulum swings from eras where type design is considered the making of stylistic variations on archetypal forms, to other eras when those forms are questioned.

You have done this kind of experiment yourself - I recall a presentation you made at ATypI Boston. I don't think that it was a Unicase, but it was a typeface you had designed with some interesting non-standard glyphs. BTW, was/will that be available as a font?

> part of the tenor of the times.

I think it's much more than that! It's the only way to mark real progress, and it's not limited to experimenting*. It just seems that unicase has no functional depth, even when Thompson was doing it. It's just style.

* http://www.themicrofoundry.com/ss_trajic.html

hhp

!!! ITC Bodoni !!!

ITC Bodoni is the MOST superior for several reason. Most important of which is the fact that it has given the user optical choice.

Here is a nice little article on it.

http://www.fordesigners.com/xheight/bodoni.cfm

Agreed. Ironically, ITC has the most to offer in this category.

More information. http://www.itcfonts.com/fonts/classics.asp?nCo=AFMT&sec=fnt&art=bodoni

This is why I own ITC Bodoni, Emigre's Filosofia, HTF Didot, Linotype Didot and Typofonderie's Ambroise. All bases covered!

Very Funny! I'm embarrassed, and shouldn't have posted such silliness.

It's okay Ben, _pats you on the shoulder_, I've used Eldorado Micro as display type. _sigh_

Thanks for elaborating on HTF Didot vs. Linotype Didot. I
drool over the Didot issue of HTF's Muse.

_______

I once used Meta for a poster. On another occasion I used
Bell Gothic as a display face.

:: gasp::

Good call, Jon. I'd second this gentle request.

Wash your mouth out, Chris! ;^) This is, in fact, a wonderful display alternative!

Within the realm of "strictly traditional" typography, unicase may not serve any purpose. But, I have to say, from a designer's p.o.v., that unicase has served a purpose.