Glad you voted, Scott. Even happier you voted for the candidate I support!

Speaking of swing states, today my friend in Wisconsin received pre-recorded, get-out-there-and-vote calls from P. Diddy, Mary J. Blige and Bill Clinton (twice).

Was it a proper ballot or a provisional ballot?

I'm in MN and I got calls from Walter Mondale (Carter's VP dontcha know) and Bill.

We sent our 10 to Kerry but I'm not so sure about Ohio.

Mine was a regular vote, not provisional. Although it looks like the people who voted with provisional ballots are going to be much more important than probably even they thought.

However...

I'm officially conceding my opinion; at this point I think we're gonna have 'four more wars' with Bush.

Oh, I think that there will only be two more wars, three tops

Question is, with "God" on his side (apparently), is it to be Iran or South Korea first.

If they're after a third, they could liberate France?

If it will be about God, then he'd have to go after Iran first, wouldn't he? As for new war #3, I'm afraid that the Hawks are eying Syria. Go figure. It seems that John Kerry has just conceeded the election to Bush, so I should probably sit tight and wait for the draft to be re-instated

Thank heavens I live on the civilised side of the Atlantic then.

Not for long, dude.

Like I said: it's gotta get worse before it gets better.
At least this way maybe my grandkids can live in a decent world.

hhp

Democracy bring the winner, whatsoever I like it or not, I respect that choice and very glad that US elected a new President. Then, any political discussions with "if" have no object on such type related forum, until we speak about politic of typograhy.

Don't worry, you won't be alone, our easily led "leader" will be volunteering British troops to invade whoever Bush wants a fight with.

Today is a very sorry day!

The next shoe to fall will be when the military says they don't have enough troops to fight terrorism. Can you say draft, but this time they will draft the women too!

I look forward to the invasion of South Korea; the USA appears to already have a large force there in support of its allies, the South Koreans. Maybe they can move North, to the

Then, any political discussions with "if" have no object on such type related forum, until we speak about politic of typograhy.

General Discussions
Anything goes.

>I respect that choice and very glad that US elected a new President.

Not a new president, but this time he really was elected by popular vote! The apocalypse has begun.

Yeah, Yves, but this is big for our standards.

George H.W. Bush got over 50% in 1988, but Bill Clinton never even got half of the popular votes cast, because both times he was in a three-way race with Ross Perot and a Republican. Al Gore won the popular vote in 2000, but he didn't get over 50% of the votes cast then either, due to Ralph Nader taking a few percentage points away.

51% to 48% is a big difference for a presidental US election, and I think that W. has actually received more actual single "votes" cast than any other president ever (because the US has more citizens now that ever before, of course

The joke of course is that 2-3% is honestly now considered a "huge margin" (I heard on TV last night, so it must be true...) for US presidential elections... And of course the problem can't be the system, because this is God's Country - the US simply can't be wrong. So most people who voted against Bush will not become angry and forcefully demand change, they will simply say "oh, well, I voted so I did my duty" and leave the acceleration of the downward spiral to the powers that be. But I believe in cycles, and the sooner we hit the bottom the sooner my less distant offspring will enjoy a decent world.

hhp

Well, maybe you have to get some more hispanics to to the polls. Isn't it scary that only 60% voted, if it's about everything - don't tell me there are people who don't have any opinion on the topic.

Servus

Dominik

Well, 60% is the highest since 1960.

If I remember correctly, wasn't the German voter turnout for the last nation-wide election (i.e., the European Parliament election in June) only at around 52%?

60%?
By American voting standards that's gi-normous.

As for the swingers, sadly, Minnesota is now one of them.
I however took some satisfaction in the lo-fi voting method
of pen and paper used here yesterday. Kind of nice really.
Seeing as all the senior citizens at my polling place were
taking their sweet time, I decided to stand in the booth and
have a good look at my ballot. Not bad. Overall it was pretty easy
to understand and I felt like I could navigate through the information
easily. I'd be interested to hear what others thought of their
state ballots/methods.

Well, that should be even more frightening.

To the european election: I suppose If you'd do some research a whole lot of people wouldn't even know that there is something like the EU Parliament. Some of them maybe just made another cross on this "other sheet" they got.

Servus

Dominik

> maybe you have to get some more hispanics to to the polls.

1) Hispanics are Republican. Why? Christianity. Bush's victory was in fact borne on religious fundamentalism. Taliban of the West.
2) Increasing voter participation would only reinforce the illusion that all's well. What we need is voting to drop to levels that will trigger a drastic correction in the US in particular and Western society in general.

> that should be even more frightening.

But it's not - because Americans think their country can't be wrong.
And that is what's most frightening.

hhp

the sooner we hit the bottom the sooner my less distant offspring will enjoy a decent world.

Unless hitting bottom involves the destruction of the world. There are people in the Bush administration who think they are bringing about the end times so Jesus can return.

I think a good way to look at this election is to see who was most affected by it.

As far as safety against terrorists, there are few with more of a vested interest than New York and the District of Columbia.

To me the large margin for Kerry in the face of still being the most likely targets--it is something of an ominous sign.(I realize that they both went for Gore in 2000 and DC is predisposed to vote for Democrats.)

But, then again, I didn't like either of them. Two evils and the greater wins. IMHO

The people most affected by it didn't get a vote.
Maybe we need a new credo: "No bombation without representation." :-/

hhp

Well George W has his first crisis to meet, it sounds like Arafat is a gonner. So there will be a new Palastinian leader soon, maybe, I hope

Look at the bright side... Dubya has only 4 more years and can't run in 2008...

Also looking at the bright side, Rumsfeld is 72, so we wont have to worry about him for much longer.

How much do you want to bet that the Publicans try to repeal the amendment limiting presidents to 2 terms?

I actually think that they are more likely to try to ammend the constitution to allow for non-american born politicians to run for president.

Such as Arno.

John "B." wrote:
How much do you want to bet that the Publicans try to repeal the amendment limiting presidents to 2 terms?

So you a bettin' man, Mr. Baichtal?

I'll bet you $100 they don't.

Dan writes:
I actually think that they are more likely to try to ammend the constitution to allow for non-american born politicians to run for president.

Personally, I never had a problem with Ausl

Dan, that's nuts - they're way too racist for that. And -in typical peon fashion, I'm sorry- you're assuming that it's hard to find just the right president. Four years is plenty of time to narrow things down and groom a good little puppet.

On the other hand, the bit about "nation of immigrants" has now become utter hogwash. In fact it's been so ever since the Native Americans were (practically) exterminated via genocide.

Arafaat: now or later, all good things come to an end. The reckless Jewish hubris we've seen since WWII will outlast him, but one day his soul will be smiling.

hhp

>The reckless Jewish hubris we've seen since WWII

this is just offensive

You should see how being enslaved and murdered feels.

hhp

>Also looking at the bright side, Rumsfeld is 72, so we wont have to worry about him for much longer.

the bright side of life - paul wolfowitz

Funny, I have a feeling that the founders of the state of Israel knew exactly how that felt.

It is one thing to criticize the state of Israel, but to assign its situation to all Jews (which you do, when you blanketly use a statement like "Jewish hubris since WWII"). That is as bad as placing the blame for the results of Islamic Fundamentalists on all Muslims.

the government of israel gives you a very hard time, to differentiate between jewish and israeli, because they always refer to their jewishness and the heritage of the shoa.

still i believe everyone has to make this effort, even though it is a tough task.

were you enslaved and murdered? interesting how you write from the grave? have you been to Jenin recently or Nablus? Do you know what you are talking about? Do you have any idea of what really goes on first-hand?

Until you do, shut up and get back to talking about type.

BTW I have been to the above places and your comments show ignorance of the reality of today.

Israel is the Jewish state. I will not shy away from being called anti-Semitic by opportunists and ignorants by saying "Israel" when I mean "Jewish". Yes, nations do exist, but so do peoples, and sometimes a nation is overwhelming the same as a people, overwhelmingly shares the people's attributes (no, we're not all the same - we just all deserve respect), for example the deep Jewish desire to avenge the Holocaust*. Japan for example has virtually no foreign population. So trying to differentiate between "Japan" and "Japanese people" is mostly pointless. But seeing problems in the ideology of a group of people is not the same as dicriminating against its individuals, which I don't do, and nobody should.

* That's where the hubris is coming from: it's an over-reaction to thinking that everybody wants you dead. But 95% of people in the world simply want to live in comfort and decency. This includes Palestinians. When you take away their most basic rights, you're either hoping to exterminate them, or you have to be ready for them to try to kill you. The sooner Jews realize that eveybody on this planet is a person, that nobody is "chosen", that nobody really wants to kill for its own sake, then they will come back into the world's fold again. What they're doing now is acting exactly like the people who formed their contemporary, persecution-syndrome view: the Nazis; like father, like son. Advice from one ancient people to another: calm down.

Individuals are not directly responsible for the actions of other individuals, but they most certainly should feel responsible for the mindset of their society - otherwise you get a bunch of selfish, petty monkeys. Muslim Americans for example are partly responsible for improving the lot of both the US and Muslim nations. I am responible for three nations.

> were you enslaved and murdered?

I am Armenian. Our Genocide goes conveniently ignored by the likes of the US and -tellingly- Israel. Also, I grew up in Beirut, during the war. We had about 260 car bombs. My uncle was assasinated. I guarded my school one day a week from 2-4 AM. I was held by the Lebanese Army, after being shot at for being in the wrong place. My brother's car had bullet holes. Two guys tried to carjack my father, and failed when he swerved to make them fall out the doors. And this is all the tip of the iceberg of my youth experience. So I've seen -and felt- much more than you, don't worry. I get my views from the ground, not Fox News, al-Jazeera or the Jerusalem Post.

hhp

Geez, all of that and you had to live on the tip of an iceberg.

It makes me feel good that my opinion matters just as much as yours. And that of everyone else here.

It's OK, I don't know much about a bunch of things you know about.

We should just all know our limits - which is why Democracy can't work BTW.

hhp

Firstly, I don''t think that Israel has an attitude of "pay back" because of the Holocaust. Most of the population here come from Arab countries rather than Eastern Europe and don't even know what the Holocaust is so there goes that theory down the drain.

Regarding the Armenian Genocide, half my staff is Armenian and we live in Israel and we don't ignore anything.

Regarding the Palestinian people's right to live. Of course they do. And they have the same rights that I do, as a Jew living in Israel and you do living in the US. However, they don't have the right to blow up children at discos, or doctors at cafes, etc. Unfortunatly when Arafat (not sure if he is still alive at time of writing) sends (sent) out children (yes 15-year-olds) to blow up civilians in Jerusalem (which nearly happened today), then the rest of the Palestinian people are going to suffer the consequences. That may mean at shopping malls they will get searched more carefully, and it also may mean the Israeli soldiers may go through their houses in Jenin in order to find the minority of suicide bombers that want to kill us. However, please note that the Israeli army will do everything in it's power not to harm any civilians and invariably succeeds which is more than the American Army does (note recent events in the search for Bin Laden).

Oh and finally, I worked for 3 years at the Jerusalem Post and although the editing and spelling may leave a lot to be desired, their reporting is damn good!

Yes, but where I would like to understand what you've been through, I wouldn't willing go through it. I doubt the reverse is so true.

And we can all be happy that the US has never tried for democracy. Polyarchy, oligarchy, democratic-like ideals, but not Democracy. That's why the President is elected with a few hundred electoral votes and not by many million popular

> don't even know what the Holocaust is

That's pure delusion.

Armenian Genocide: Israel, along with numerous prominent non-governmental Jews, actively lobby to block its recognition, including via influencing President Clinton to veto US attempts at the last minute. The reasons are obvious, and highly dishonorable. That's not how you gain friends. But first of course you have to want friends. You have to rise above the rabid, us-against-the-rest-of-the-world, destructive isolationism. You have it in you, otherwise you wouldn't have survived this long. But downhill is your current direction, and because you have so much power that's bad for everybody. With power comes responsability, and with past injustice comes the need to grow; neither are a license to brutalize.

> .... their reporting is damn good!

Well, that certainly explains your totally imbalanced view of the Palestinian issue.
Every level-headed person knows that the JP is a festering pit of political manipulation.

hhp

Okay I think it is at this point in an argument (that really has nothing to do with type, typography or typesetting) that I must decline to continue this thread. You may interpret this as you will, but frankly your comments are not rational and your final comment re the JP clearly show this.

It has been interesting hearing your point of view, but I think perhaps hearing what you think about OpenType is perhaps of more interest to members of this forum.

Y'know, a lot of this "I'm oppressed and nobody cares" and "well I've been shot and you haven't" stuff always comes off sounding like resentful jealousy, rather than a desire for something better. Particularly when it turns into racist* generalizations.

I could go on, but I've deleted my lengthy post for the purposes of... not continuing the cycle, I suppose.

Hrant, is there a good (unbiased) resource online for learning more about the Armenians? My life and the problems in those areas of the world seem to be intersecting more and more as the years continue.

*Not that making racial distinctions is bad, per se, but that making assertions that imply the need for uniform violence based on those distinctions is not helpful to anyone.

Raphael: OK.

Chris:
-Generalization (a natural and useful human thought process) is just that - it applies to wholes, not components. Racism is when generalization is applied to discriminate against individuals. Commenting on the [de]merits of groups/societies (which are made up of people who identify with the group, through free will) is not only not racism, it is extremely useful in trying to improve the world.
-Complaining about injustice is unpleasant to both complainer and listener. But I have this standing offer that has yet to be picked up: let's switch the roles of oppressor and oppressed, and we'll let you complain all you want - deal?
- This is very good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia

hhp

>>However, please note that the Israeli army will do everything in it's power not to harm any civilians and invariably succeeds

Sorry, I really don't want to stir this thread up, but that statement is just plain nonsense, and can't be allowed to go unchallenged

But some in the Israeli Army are still trying to do the right thing:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3982895.stm

hhp