I'm not one to piss on anyone's parade Zach, but I'd caution you against using either Mrs. Eaves or Bodoni as a copy face. As much as it's overused, I'm afraid my poor eyes would rather see Times again than either of of those at 9 points. There's a thread here about Eaves somewhere (I'll see if I can find the URL) that you might be interested in. [ here's the link]

And now that I've pissed on your parade, I don't have any suggestions right off. I'm assuming (from past small press work) that your budget is small if not non-existent. What other faces do you have at hand?

> For the text, which will be 9 or maybe 10 pt, I'm toying with Mrs Eaves or (a little angel on my right shoulder says this is a bad idea) Bodoni.

If your little angel warned you about Bodoni but said nothing about the dangers of Mrs Eaves for small point sizes, fire him pronto - no severance pay. News fonts are all about x-height, and Mrs Eaves's in tiny.

As for Bodoni, there's such a wide range of them in terms of appropriate point size usage that some choices would produce passable results while others would produce readability quicksand. I say "passable" because even the best Bodoni would not be a good choice: its letterforms are structurally display-centric, not text-centric.

There are many rock solid news faces you can choose from. Like the calm, versatile Olympian, or the edgy, highly efficient Swift, or the multi-talented (but pricey) Poynter. There are so many, and I'm not really an expert. If you need some good places to start, look at FontBureau* and Unger**. And beware small foundries who have one or two fonts they claim are fit for news setting; they pretend -or even believe- they know what it takes to make a real news face, but it's really a dark art.

* http://www.fontbureau.com

** http://www.gerardunger.com/

hhp

Agreeing with Nathan...

some common newspaper typefaces include...

Cheltenham, Miller, Olympian, Ionic, Corona, Century, Nimrod...

there are probably a dozen more.

Make sure you read Tim Harrower's book and
visit www.ronreason.com + lots of
other resources online for newspaper designers.

For headlines, Futura might not be versatile enough.

Jim Parkinson's Richmond, Hoefler's Knockout are
2 versatile families. Maybe even Gotham.

You could probably do one-stop shopping at Font Bureau.

Of course the text face should go with the display face.
I'm sure the FB staff could give you some great suggestions.


For the Flag, I would look into doing something custom.

I'm sure someone has some better specific suggestions.
I've been out of newspapers for a while now. .

good luck. What's the name of the newspaper?...

bj

crosspost.

clarifying: I actually don't know much about Gotham
or whether it'd work for your newspaper.

You could also ask the people at the Hoefler Type
Foundry for some suggestions.

>Nothing wrong with using Futura in different places for different elements (it comes in different weights right?) but there's plenty wrong with Bodoni or Mrs Eaves for a newspaper text faces. Most Bodonis are made from Bodoni's display sizes - not his text sizes (ITC Bodoni 6 is one of the few exceptions, but it has a very dark colour). This makes most Bodonis unsuitable for the setting of long text. There's also a cultural thing here as well - if you were publishing in France, say, they have a cultural legacy of modern faces used for materials like novels - but in English-speaking countries your average reader expects faces derived more from transitional sources. Since you probably have no budget, I'd suggest picking up Melior. It's oft-neglected, but it's got a nice high x-height (an important consideration as mentioned earlier) and a pleasing, slightly square anatomy.

Both Mrs Eaves and Bodoni are bad as newspaper faces: Mrs Eaves has a really small x-height so it always looks smaller than it is, and Bodoni has a vertical contrast and fine hairlines that are easily lost when printed with a coarse process on coarse paper. Try Matthew Carter's ITC Charter. It would work fantastically on newsprint and it's way underused. Others suggested are great too.

I agree with bj about Gotham. It's beautiful and would make a smashing headline face. These two families are all you need. Forget about Futura; it's clich

Hey Zach, is the paper printed on newsprint? Do you have an existing masthead you must use? If so, please post an image thanks.

Zach, 1. what is "small newspaper"? 2. # of pages? 3. b&w? color? 4. pictures? illustrations? - yes - what kind or style? no - why not? 5. what kind of layout? grid? 6. what kind of space - headline, picture, text ? 7. most important: newspaper is not like magazine.

If your budget=0 then you might consider Stormtype's Lido. Even if it's not ...

Thanks for the responses everyone. Sorry I haven't been able to reply sooner.

>For the Flag, I would look into doing something custom.
bj: Could you elaborate? As for the name, it's The Tartan, as Gordon has some sort of Scottish root. Last year, the first year we used Modern No. 20 (Times New Roman for the whole damn paper before that), it was typed like this: "the TARTAN", which I like better than just plain ol' "The Tartan".

>Hey Zach, is the paper printed on newsprint? Do you have an existing masthead you must use? If so, please post an image thanks
Ly: Yes, newsprint, 11x17. No, no existing masthead we must use. We're not quite that established, and I don't like the masthead from last year. Though if we kept the font (M.N.20) it would give us some continuity. (But if it's a bad idea artistically, it's a bad idea. It works for the Nation magazine though...)

>1. what is "small newspaper"?
David: We'll be printing about 1600 copies, weekly.

>2. # of pages?
Probably 12 or 16, though I can't be sure because a lot will be changing from last year. Maybe 20 some weeks.

>3. b&w? color?
Black and white.

>4. pictures? illustrations? - yes - what kind or style? no - why not?
We have the usual amount of photos. We just got a $1000 digital camera and a $500 high-speed lens, so we may have good quality photos this year. We will also start this year having other artwork -- op-ed and feature illustrations, cartoons.

>5. what kind of layout? grid?
Five columns, 2 in. each, on 11x17 newsprint. Margins and gutters TBA. Don't know nothing 'bout grids... I saw something about them in a layout book I've been reading, but I don't know if I'll have the energy to figure them out before school starts. But layout was hell last year so maybe I should.

>6. what kind of space - headline, picture, text ?
I don't know what you mean... Nothing is really established. Last year's layout/design was OK but not great, and definitely is not staying. So I really have the liberty to do whatever I want.

>7. most important: newspaper is not like magazine.
Oh but I wish it *was* a magazine... But you could probably tell all that from the typeface ideas I had. I really don't care for news much at all -- at least the kind of news we usually cover ("New Dorm Unveiled"). I wish we could just do arts, editorials, and op-eds. And look like either Harper's or Radar.

To everyone: I will look at all those fonts you people suggested. I think I may even be able to give up Futura, if there's something good. I just really really don't want to use Helvetica or Franklin Gothic... what do you think about Akzidenz Grotesk? Or Interstate? (which someone mentioned that as overused on the Overused thread...)

Oh, important note: we do in fact have $ to spend... I'm prepared to spend up to 400-500 if it's necessary.

Zach - by "custom" I mean do not simply set TARTAN
in a font and call it your flag. Treat it like a logo, or
as Jay-W would say, a trademark.

Treat it with care, space it tighter
than you would a headline, look for harmonious combinations
with your TA combo, which appears twice.

btw, Jim Parkinson is one of many flag experts.

www.typedesign.com

Also, I think nameplate and flag are interchangeable,
while masthead refers to the staff listings commonly
put inside, typically near the op-ed page.

==