Would that theft of Intellectual Property qualified as a casualty loss for tax purposes. Unfortunately, a goodly number of the sites offering pirated fonts are located offshore, and thus out of reach of the IRS...

I am thinking about doing a screen capture and putting a $ value on it!

It is nice to know that 9000 people liked my font but that really is ridiculous.

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Digital Delivery! The upside: virtually no overhead or distribution costs! The downside: virtually no control over the flow of goods.

It is why I stopped 3 years ago. Seems nothing has changed... He said as he is about to release 3 fonts.

The sad thing is my foundry does not seem to think they can do anything about it, or doesn't care :-(

The sad thing is my foundry does not seem to think they can do anything about it

Short of building a remotely-triggered virus into each font, probably not...

I happened to have a brief conversation with an illegal font downloader; I noticed at a chat room someone was looking for my Suomi Hand script, and I said I knew where to find it. She promptly asked me to upload the file. I told her I was the designer of that font, and that free downloading of my font was illegal, and also hurting my livelihood. She replied: "This is my hobby. It's no different from collecting stamps." I politely pointed out that stamps are not free. She disagreed.

She disagreed

Then she's not only a thief, but a moron as well.

And I just went to those torrent sites, and Suomi Hand was downloaded 3074 times from just one site. They actually had that statistic.

I suddenly want to break things and kill people. Well, not really kill people, but, honestly, I am really, REALLY pissed off. This is just not right.

If it's any consolation, a number of torrent sites lure people into attempting to download large collections of commercial fonts, but end up infecting the downloader's computer with a really nasty virus...

Yes, Nick, I do know that, but these are not collections, just my font, and I don't know how to inflict it with any nasty viruses.

Tomi.... same site! And in my opinion if you can find them, then kill them. FFuucckk 'em if they can't take a joke!

How about that for getting around the censors.

Well, that would teach them. After being f***ed or killed.

In an ideal world, it would be instructive if every font in the world were deactivated for one day, so that anyone who needed to use a font would have to create one themselves. Perhaps then they would gain an appreciation for the thought and the labor that fontmakers put into their art, and would not be so cavalier about depriving us of just compensation for that thought an labor.

Ah, one can dream...

Ext.--Dark Alley, Night

YOUNG WHIPPERSNAPPER comes around the corner, laptop in hand. He smirks.

ANGLE ON:

MICHAEL, TOMI

(Simultaneously)

You downloaded how many of my fonts!?

====

You don't want to see the rest. Too gory :)

I sent the following email to one site:

My type family 'Houschka Rounded' is available for free download on this site iDownloadUnlimited. It is not free - it should be purchased from authorized retailers only. I noted that on just one of the four available downloads that it has been downloaded 148,179 times. Will you be recompensing me for this lost income? It is priced at £180 in the UK, so by my reckoning you owe me at least £266,722,20, but I'll settle for just £250 million.
Please remove 'Houschka Rounded' from this site immediately.

Nick Cooke - designer of Houschka Rounded.

It's a shame that they didn't reimburse me, I could have retired to my own island in the Caribbean.

I'm sorry if this sounds stupid, but can't you sue them for this? I was planning to sell a typeface in some time, but this is really making everything seem useless.

I'm sorry if this sounds stupid, but can't you sue them for this?

You probably could IF you could find the responsible parties AND they resided within a jurisdiction that treated Theft Intellectual Property as a tort AND you had the money to initiate and pursue a lawsuit...

Michael,
The reason why you question your ability to write off this theft as a business loss is derived from the fact that you know better. Your claim is that what? Nine thousand font licenses were stolen? That would work if, say, you had invoices from each of the transactions and proof that in each case the payment was stopped—but even then, you could merely void their license agreements. So this specific argument doesn't hold up. You can 'steal' or illegally obtain fonts, but I don't see any way to steal font licenses (your product).
Yes, you have suffered legitimate, real damages, but you are only entitled to redress as far as and in the ways you've protected yourself in your EULA, and to the extent the law applies.

Virtue is the only complete solution to this problem.

Though for a partial solution I was thinking: would it not be possible to 'stamp a serial number into' or uniquely mark each font distributed so that in these cases of mass piracy we may conclusively know the origin of its dispensing? Is there a history on this?

would it not be possible to 'stamp a serial number into' or uniquely mark each font distributed so that in these cases of mass piracy we may conclusively know the origin of its dispensing?

A TRULY Unique PSID would be invaluable. I suppose that a font vendor could store font data as XML, then merge that data at point-of-sale with a unique add-on ID tied to the buyer's name, email and--even better, but it would never fly--credit card information, and do an XML-to-OTF conversion. I doubt that this will happen, but what if such a "What if" scenario were circulated among the type-buying public?

I rememember buying Didot from Foefler in mid-nineties, and that came with password protection, and only low-resolution version for display (no curved forms; they were replaced with a LOT of corner-points). So, if you wanted to actually make a printed product, you then had to buy the hi-res version for the printer.

In the end I threw away the font after I got a new Mac, and failed to install Foefler Didot, because I could not find the original password slip.

So, that method is not viable in my books, but 'stamping' might work. It should be done automatically, or as a choice in preferences, by your font building program in a deep enough level for hackers to simply removing it.

Letterhead Fonts is (or maybe was) doing something like that. It didn't seem to be too well received:

http://typophile.com/node/30452

I'm not talking about anything fancy, just a unique value, say, 614a38444c523b45433c7c5b51754a496b304631417c6f2d776d6c227b, that is recorded on my copy of the invoice, and also in the font data in a place I know where to find it. That way, if someone serves up my font for free, I can download it, find the unique value, and find out to whom it was originally sold.
Suppose it's a complete font family package, and all the values correspond to a single purchase placed by a design firm: I could write them and suggest they keep a closer eye on their interns. ;)

After rereading the thread I posted above, your suggestion is what they ended up doing after their initial plan (having the fonts installed by an installer, and invisible on your system to anything but the installer) didn't work out.

I'm curious to know if they manually put the serial number somewhere in the font file before generating the OTF to send to the customer, or if there's some automated way of doing this.

It all seems like a lot of work for very minimal gain. A foundry would have to spend a fair amount of time and energy generating and keeping track of those serial numbers, and even more time tracking them down, and yet more time writing strongly worded letters to the offenders (or paying a lawyer to do it for them). And in the end, unless they can convince the person to buy a license (which might not be worth more than the time they've put into tracking the person down), they won't end up any further ahead financially.

This isn't to say that trying to minimize piracy isn't worthwhile, but I don't think this particular method is worth the time.

I'm curious to know if they manually put the serial number somewhere in the font file before generating the OTF to send to the customer, or if there's some automated way of doing this.

If I understand the capabilities of TTX correctly...

http://www.font.org/software/ttx/

A program like Access could record the purchaser's information linked to a sequential unique number in a database, place that same number within an XML file, then instruct TTX to generate the OTF font--all entirely automated.

However, maybe it's time we taught respect for Intellectual Property Rights in our schools. Back in Ye Olden Days, a person who purchased a book might lend it to a friend but, unless that friend had a LOT of time on his or her hands during which they could copy the book by hand, said friend would read the book, then return it to the buyer. If the friend wanted his or her own copy, he or she would have to buy it--or steal it from a local bookstore or library. Kids need to be taught that sharing digital files with friends is not sharing: it's stealing.

To Jonathan's point: No kidding. As I was writing my last post I thought, but that doesn't prove anything. It could be that the design firm has an employee who pirated the font files—or (assuming the firm's designers take home their work) anyone that any of those employees come in contact with could have passed it to someone else who could have pirated it. What good would a type foundry accomplish telling an advertising agency that the fonts they bought had later been pirated? They would say 'Well I didn't distribute it. Someone stole it from me.' And I would believe them.

I may have been ambiquous earlier. My suggestion is: in FontLab Studio preferences you can check a box to add a unique ID number to every font you create, every time you create one, as a default. After you have finished your design, and you've got that product you're happy to license, either yourself, or through another firm. Important is that it has that unique ID number, whether it's been copied any number of times. If that ID number is embedded deep enough into the file, that should stay there.

So, I would hand this over to font design programmers.

.

Kids need to be taught that sharing digital files with friends is not sharing: it's stealing.

That is exactly the thing that we should never do. Sharing is sharing, it is in the very nature of human beings, and I'm hoping that with movements like Pirate Party their will be an end to all this intellectual property madness and the people will be finally able to say their word against the dinosaurs that are failing to adapt with the "digital era".

Sharing is sharing

Sharing is sharing when what is being shared is yours to give. If I have two apples and I give you one, that is haring. If I have one apple and steal another to give to you, that is theft.

So, when I pay with my hard earned money for a font, it is equal to stealing an apple, that why I believe that both media industries are dissociated from reality. I, sincerely, hope they will wakeup before meeting the fate that newspaper industry is facing.

So, when I pay with my hard earned money for a font, it is equal to stealing an apple

No: when you pay your hard-earned money for a font, it is equal to buying an apple. If you give a copy of the font to a friend, it is equal to stealing the hard-earned money of the man or woman who grew the apple.

I treat myself to some pirated fonts every now and then. I am similar to the mentioned font pirate Tomi from Suomi mentioned, I do collect fonts a bit, play around with them if I need distraction from writing. Except that I see that fonts should be paid for, still I don't see a reason why I as a person who never uses them for anything I would hand over to other people, or anything I would make money with, should pay for it. If there were not pirated fonts, I would not get them anyhow, as I do not really need them.

There are however a few fonts I bought, in total three families, to established a signature style. I paid like 160 $ for three different typefaces with three weights each: roman/italics/bold. These fonts I actually intend to use at some time and did use one typeface already in the past. They were cheap enough that I was convinced to get them and they were what I was looking for in appearance for a signature style.

So what does that make me? A thief? An honest person? I guess I just have my own morals. I am sorry for you guys who feel bestolen, but as I said, I never intend to produce anything with them that would leave my very own computer.

Everybody who uses fonts professionally or for extensive personal use (signature style) should buy them, that's my opinion.

Yeah, my nick is slightly ironic – intentionally.

Peace guys, do not take it so hard, if you are bound to be successful, you will be anyhow. If your designs don't fly, then not because it was pirated in mass, but because designers, art-directors, printers, book-setters, companies, etc… did not see the right fit for them or there is no current need to expand the portfolio.

I would not be outraged by 9000 downloads of people who never will buy fonts, I would be outraged by big companies not paying for fonts.

When I steal an apple from you, you loss an apple, when I give a copy of my font to a friend you loss nothing, except the hypothesis that my have I not given him a copy, would have paid you for a copy, but it remains an unproven hypothesis that I have, till now, seen evidences against.

When I steal an apple from you, you loss an apple
If I make my living selling apples, when you steal an apple from me, you steal the fruits of my labor. When you give me fonts away to others, you steal the fruits of my labor. There is no difference.

@lowmark (what a very apt nom de plume): I would not be outraged by 9000 downloads of people who never will buy fonts, I would be outraged by big companies not paying for fonts.

See the above: theft is theft, regardless of the income of the thief...

to stick with an apple analogy:

Apples are produced and sold to be eaten, right?

What would be the analogy? Fonts are made to be incorporated into some kind of creation. If a pirated font is not used in a creation that surfaces in the living world, where is the difference to the state of where the font were never pirated in the first place?

Somebody said that what is actually broken is the license agreement. I feel like that I do not need a licence for anything I only do in my own 4 walls. For what I do not make available to the public, what would I need a license for? I do not see any damage in it, pirating or not.

As I said, I have licences for three families, I do honor them, and do not share those fonts with friends or anybody else. Those I use outside my 4 walls. Because I do not have control over other people's attitude towards sharing I do not share fonts myself in general.

My world is not black and white, although I do know that it is illegal, I do not care for legality if nobody gets hurt and nobody gets caught.

My argument is not about income, it is about usage.

Ok, I am out of here, just wanted to add my two cents.

Low mark.... your name sums it up... you are a pissant.

Chuck Davis at letterhead fonts is probably the smartest guy I know when comes to font piracy. He has devised a way to get back at font piracy and I applaud him. I think a lot of companies could learn from him. Sorry Michael to hear 9000 people downloaded your font. I am not sure if that's a compliment or a slap in the face.

"Welcome to the Wonderful World of Digital Delivery! The upside: virtually no overhead or distribution costs! The downside: virtually no control over the flow of goods."

But this hits the nail on the head. I'll let you make a wish. You can either have zero piracy and the font retailing model of 20 yrs ago, or you can have today's piracy and today's retail model. Easy choice right?

Piracy has devastated the music industry, but I see no evidence that it's hurt the font industry at all on a net basis. On the contrary, there are more type designers (and more successful type designers) than ever.

That doesn't mean that piracy doesn't exist and that it doesn't have real costs. But you have to net it out against the gains. If the Gap wants to know how well it's doing, it doesn't just look at how much merchandise is being shoplifted.

I don't see a solution to this problem ever coming from within the font file itself or from the download controls of vendors. The simplest and most effective way of eliminating font piracy will be to overhaul the operating system engine that serves fonts to applications to require activation like any other software in order to operate on a unique system.

For example, Adobe Creative Suite's activation process was met with initial resistance (predictable), but has mostly become routine and manageable for end users who really need to use the software. Efforts to undermine the activation process have met limited success and are out of technical reach for the vast majority of users. It has pretty effectively reduced piracy of CS.

Having the infrastructure to manage such activation systems is probably overkill for many small foundries, but it would not take much work for someone to create a reasonable server-based PHP/MySQL solution that is affordable and secure. Or, multiple foundries could employ a central service through a subscription pay system.

It is Microsoft and Apple who must ultimately fix this at the OS level. As long as the OS treats fonts like resource files to which users can have complete access and control, then users will treat them that way too, instead of treating them like legitimate software.

When you give me fonts away to others, you steal the fruits of my labor.

That is your saying, but no one had ever showed my an evidence that you have lost any thing, it is a mere hypothesis.

So let me make my hypothesis, since we all have no real evidences mine should be as valid as yours. A person receiving a copy of your fonts from a friend are one of two, an amateur who is unlikely to pay for your fonts anyway, so you practically lost nothing, even more, he might love your fonts and become a fan who just buys them because he loves them, like novel fans. Or may be he is professional designer, and he would either like your font and become a potential consumer, or dislike it and was not going to buy your font anyway.

... Or may be he is a professional designer who doesn't want to pay for the font because he is in financial trouble, while he does use it for his designs.

The only thing you can change about piracy is how you feel about it. Sometimes stealing is sharing. Sometimes sharing is stealing. Sometimes sharing is sharing. Sometimes stealing is stealing. Anyone who claims that any of these is always the case is wrong.

Torrents, rapidshares, alt.binaries and pirate font sites: sales are affected. Maybe every 9000 downloads, costs you 10 sales. Maybe it costs you 0.05 sales. I'm pretty sure it doesn't cost you 100 sales.

You can try to classify the type of person who pirates fonts but to what end? Some of those people are your customers, some aren't. A few times, just for fun, I've sent a free commercial font license to someone who was asking for my fonts on a pirate site. Why not? You don't lose a sale anyway and you might gain a Twitter follower.

Do your paying customers a favor: put your bitter mall cop energy into making new fonts and improving old ones. If your fonts end up on a free font site, that's what you need to worry about. I didn't always feel that way but that's the conclusion I've come to after over a decade of selling fonts. I'd have a few less fonts in my library if I spent more time on a pirate crusade or feeling bad about it.

However: free font sites that mistakenly carry commercial fonts can hurt sales. They deliver fonts to people who think they're supposed to be freeware. I think those are worth the effort on a polite reminder/impolite take down.

@Khaled Hosny
no one had ever showed my an evidence that you have lost any thing, it is a mere hypothesis

Hypothetical: You are a physician. A man sits outside your office and asks each entering potential patient about his complaint. The man says, "I know just the thing," and writes a prescription. The potential patient says, "I though only doctors could write prescriptions." The man says, "I stole a prescription pad from him, so now I can write them."

And, of course, in this hypothetical scenario, you--the physician--lose nothing, right?

Kudos for your attitude, Mr. Larabie.

Here's why the apple analogy is ruining the entire "content industry."

1) You don't steal an apple from the market stand because you see the apple's owner, and the owner sees you. If there were no one around and you really wanted an apple, wouldn't you at least consider taking one?

2) You know you can multiply apples infinitely, so you don't even have to physically take the apple away. You magically duplicate it and walk away with a brand new apple, and the farmer will never know. Does that feel like hurting him? Not really.

3) When I buy a newspaper, or a CD, it feels like buying an apple: we trade objects for coins. When a newspaper website makes me pay 50¢ to read an article, I feel ripped off. 50¢ may be nothing, but I suddenly pay without getting a physical object in return that would justify the cost. The fact that the supply of copies is now infinite lowers its perceived value to zero. Fonts are crazy expensive (unless you're a professional who can put them on the clients' bill). (Almost) no one, at least not me, will buy a family for more than a couple bucks "for fun". Us type designers very much overestimate the importance of our work.

4) Try to teach your virtues to your kids, who, like me, grew up in a virtual world, where everything happens on screen. It just feels unnatural to us to bring the concept of money into this immaterial world. Doesn't mean we don't intellectually understand you need money to survive, but 1), 2) and 3) are just so overwhelming.

50 years from now, "intellectual property" business will have to work differently. I can't wait.

(and yes, I make fonts myself. I just don't get why people in the creative business pretend the world is being deliberately evil to them.)

@oldnick

Well, that already happens here, most patients are likely to go to pharmacy first and the pharmacist would give them a free prescription and sell them the medicine, a very common practice though is officially illegal, it stems from very old traditions. How physicians fell about that? nothing, as long as they ask serious patients to seek real medical advice. And yes, I lose nothing, those people are unlikely to afford paying me anyway, and if they get cured, more power to them.

Do your paying customers a favor: put your bitter mall cop energy into making new fonts and improving old ones. If your fonts end up on a free font site, that's what you need to worry about. I didn't always feel that way but that's the conclusion I've come to after over a decade of selling fonts. I'd have a few less fonts in my library if I spent more time on a pirate crusade or feeling bad about it.

Very well said, just if more font designers start thinking this way...

@sebastian_k

I just don't get why people in the creative business pretend the world is being deliberately evil to them

That's painting the picture in an unnecessarily broad, simplistic and self-serving stroke. Growing up in a virtual world doesn't mean that a real world--rife with consequences for actions thoughtlessly undertaken--doesn't exist. Time to exit the cocoon, Junior...

or it is 2010 grandpa...

or it is 2010 grandpa...

That's great-grandpa to you, sir...

consequences for actions thoughtlessly undertaken

You're preaching to the choir here. Do I know making a good font takes months of work? Yes, I do. Do I appreciate your work, and do I think you deserve to make a living? Hell yes. (In fact, I really like your decorative type.) Do I pirate fonts? Nope.

The same goes for Khaled I'm sure.

But you guys are completely out of touch with reality when you say things like "Kids need to be taught that sharing digital files with friends is not sharing: it's stealing." There is a perceived difference, and that's what counts. If you want to babble on about EULAs and Intellectual Property, go ahead. Just look at what's happening to the CD/DVD industry (though they, unlike type designers, are cozy with politicians).

Also, don't forget that there are more and more free (or bundled) fonts around that make people question the price tags of commercial fonts (sorry for contributing to that).

I wish my posts were more constructive, but I don't see an easy way out of this. Ray is doing the right thing.

Then again, if you just needed to vent your frustration, sorry to interrupt :)

There is a perceived difference, and that's what counts.

OK: so some numbskull is tooling down the road, texting one of his numerous BFFs about nothing in particular and he perceives everything to be fine, totally unaware of the eighteen-wheeler whose path he is about to cross, which will mash him flatter than a pancake. But, hey, no problem: it's the perception that counts, right?

And the eighteen-wheeler is your crusade, RIAA style?

I didn't mean to invalidate your frustration, which I entirely understand.

I am actually interested in this though: did you see a decline in sales with the advent of filesharing? Did anyone, really? Of course 9000 downloads feel like "the bad guys" stole 9000 × [insert price], but what do your numbers really say?

And the eighteen-wheeler is your crusade, RIAA style?

No: the eighteen-wheeler is stubborn reality, which cares not what others perceive it to be...

What I meant was this:

You, Nick, care about working day and night and not getting paid. I'm with you.

Joe Numbskull, who finds a cool-looking font for his 8th-grade book report, doesn't see a "real" value in bits and bytes, since the supply is infinite, and no one watches him "steal". The value is as virtual as the font. Stealing metal type from a print shop would feel different.

What does that have to do with eighteen-wheelers? The worst that can happen to Joe is that you get another job and stop making more fonts. Tough luck.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't think of protection mechanisms, but are you willing to play cat-and-mouse with font pirates? With Ray's attitude, you'll live longer :)

Afterthought: I'd say leave it to/talk to the developers of OS's/rendering libs. Until they implement some sort of PKI for fonts, there's always a way around them anyway.

Still, I'd be interested in numbers.

Stealing metal type from a print shop would feel different.

I am quite confident that the average U.S. Southerner, before our Civil War, thought enslaving other human beings--as long as they were black--was perfectly acceptable. And, no doubt, the average Nazi soldier herding Jews into gas chambers thought he was doing his part--the right thing--to serve the Fatherland. Right and wrong remain quite separate, despite the prevailing ethos.

And, no: I won't live longer with Ray's attitude, although perhaps I would with his genes. My parents and grandparents placed a ticking time bomb in my chest: right now, the only real question is, will my arthritis make it impossible to work or will my progressive presbyopia make me go blind before my heart blows. Tough luck for Joe?

I am quite confident that the average U.S. Southerner ... And, no doubt, the average Nazi soldier ...

analogy FAIL

analogy FAIL

The analogy stands: your comprehension fails. Please explain how one is supposed to know what is right if what one has been taught is right is, in fact, wrong.

So what now, sir?

Comparing font piracy to slavery and genocide overstates the issue enormously. (Do I really need to say that?)

Perspective, please. We are talking about the mechanics of the free market. Nobody has the right to make a living off their work. (Not type designers -- not creative artists generally -- nobody.) The only right anyone has is to participate & compete in the free market. Every corner of the free market has benefits. It has costs. And if you don't like that particular corner, you have the right to do something else with your time and effort.

"Right" vs. "wrong" and "legal" vs. "illegal" are discussions that eventually get trumped by "fact" vs. "fantasy". Every piracy-protection system is broken sooner or later. People who don't want to pay for the product don't have to.

I completely agree with Typodermic that in rational economic terms, type designers are usually better off putting the "mall cop energy" into designing more type & better type.

"the free market." Ah, but the free market only exists because of law and its enforcement. The government defines and enforces what is private property, and without that there is no market. In the case of intellectual property, it is the government that authorizes copyright and patent, and enforces contracts (including the EULA), which enables creatives in the digital realm to sell their wares.

Pro-piracy Vikings fail to notice that there is a multi-billion dollar market for software, which would not exist if there were no IP protection. So while it is not wise to exaggerate the harm done by piracy, advocating it as the rule, and "no harm done" as a general rule is really a failure to understand the situation.

ps. Love your refutation of "perception is reality," Old Nick.

The trend in computer-usage being towards ‘cloud computing’ the whole issue of paying or not for software will be resolved in a couple of years (or maybe decades). And that will include fonts. Everyone will pay for sw then, or be left behind…

My point: we are in the early stages of this industry and as historic examples show us: robber barons, crooks, ran and feather, etc. etc, all around.

Pro-piracy Vikings fail to notice that there is a multi-billion dollar market for software, which would not exist if there were no IP protection.

And there also "a multi-billion dollar market" for free software, indeed free software has copyrights (or copyleft) but its notion of "IP protection" is radically different than yours. I personally think any IP protection beyond the moral right of being credited to owns work, is a draconian measure that should be abolished.

Everyone will pay for sw then, or be left behind…

I don't have to pay for software (including fonts) now and I'm using 100% legal (mostly copyleft) software, so I don't buy-in the idea that corporate-controlled so called cloud computing is going to take over software market. Free (as in freedom) is as old as computers and I don't think it is going away any time soon.

the free market only exists because of law and its enforcement. The government defines and enforces what is private property, and without that there is no market ... government that authorizes copyright and patent, and enforces contracts (including the EULA), which enables creatives in the digital realm to sell their wares.

The essence of a market economy is exchange, not private-property rights. Items are successfully exchanged all the time in our economy that are not property, or not private.

There is a difference between "enabling" a market and "enforcing" it. By and large, the govt only takes a role in enforcement when it's a criminal matter. For copyright, patent, and contract, the govt makes private parties enforce the law. This is not a merely academic distinction. Economic incentives would be distorted if private parties did not internalize the costs of enforcement.

(PS Has any font foundry ever sued a nonlicensed user for copyright / EULA violations? I haven't heard of it happening, though it may have)

Pro-piracy Vikings fail to notice that there is a multi-billion dollar market for software, which would not exist if there were no IP protection

I am not pro-piracy (nor, last I checked, a Viking) but software markets DO exist without IP protection. For example, the iTunes store. For the last couple years, all songs have been sold in unprotected MP3 format. Has that impacted Apple's bottom line? For the better, apparently.

Example #2: fonts. There is no meaningful IP protection for fonts in the United States. Entire companies have been built around the premise of legally cloning existing fonts. But the market hasn't collapsed. That's not a pro-piracy argument. That's just pointing out that whatever is holding up the font market in the US, it's not private IP rights.

>Has any font foundry ever sued a nonlicensed user for copyright / EULA violations? I haven't heard of it happening, though it may have

Yes. Adobe vs SSI established that you can't just copy and resell software from another company.

There have been several law suits against companies for violating font licenses. The de facto situation is that private individuals can use pirated fonts privately with impunity, but publishers and other companies cannot.

>its notion of "IP protection" is radically different than yours.

You are being presumptuous in thinking you know what my notion of "IP protection" is. I don't know myself, as I'm not a lawyer, and haven't studied this complex matter.

I do think a few things: 1. if Adobe had lost to SSI instead of winning, and similar suits were defeated, it would have hurt the font industry. 2. If you download and use my font without paying for it, you are depriving legitimate income to both me and Font Bureau, who both worked on it--a lot. It is particularly nasty if you make money using the font without ever paying for it.

Matthew: The Font Bureau recently went after NBC for violating a EULA: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/10/font-bureau-clashes-with...

The point is, the vikings (promoters of piracy) don't seem to be aware that while private piracy is overlooked, public piracy is not, and this is a commercially important fact.

There is a difference between IP protection and what is known as DRM, which tries to use technology to defeat piracy. Your example of Itunes is off the mark, because the music is copyrighted, and there have been suits for violation of copyright. If you don't think copyright matters commercially, just try and download the Beatles from Itunes.

Your point about the parties accepting the rules of exchange voluntarily is correct, but I think, that if the rules were never enforced by government, then the parties would not respect the rules. You just have too look at poor countries to see where the rule of law is much weaker, and commerce is as a result harmed. Poor countries are poor partly because of the lack of rule of law, and particularly the enforcement of contracts. This stuff actually matters a lot to the wealth of a country.

I've never been a pro-piracy (I don't even support the term piracy, anyway), I'm rather anti-copyright pro-copyleft, and until the current copyright system is dismissed, I advice everyone (who shares my opinion, that it) to avoid copyrighted material, used (and produced) copylefted material instead. What I was opposing here is pro-copyright's attempt (or wish) to intoxicate education systems with their propaganda, the thing that also RIAA and its friends are trying hard to do.

I don't know what exactly your idea about "IP protection", William, but you had said enough for me to know it differs from mine (and free software proponents'). I'll continue to ignore your calling me a "viking" (which I find highly offensive) for a second time.

@butterick: Comparing font piracy to slavery and genocide overstates the issue enormously

That was not what I said. As I said, the analogy stands; your comprehension fails. Too much time spent dealing with lawyers, I suspect...

Khaled, "viking" is my attempt at humor--obviously unsuccessful :)

I like Ray's fonts. I like his philosophy, too. Kudos!

What I was opposing here is pro-copyright's attempt (or wish) to intoxicate education systems with their propaganda, the thing that also RIAA and its friends are trying hard to do

Forget the "I" part of RIAA. Most of us are not talking about an Industry here: we are talking about independent (mostly one-person) foundries, the garage bands of the font business. So, good sir, please be so kind as to explain exactly what the creators of works which other people use as tools to generate income--or simply to enjoy--are entitled to as compensation under your view of things?

@ William Berkson
Different cultural backgrounds may be, but it wasn't obvious to me it is a joke.

The free market is meant for exchange of goods and services in both directions, not just one.

We seem to keep confusing theft with copyright infringement with piracy with file sharing with physical product with digital copies with murder with hobbies with...

Always fun, though!

"And, no doubt, the average Nazi soldier herding"

Oh...sorry for that last post. I wasn't aware that the debate had already reached Godwin's law status.

"Free Market" is defined by some who feel entitled as: "When YOU put it on the market, I get it for free"

*And* you are a greedy bastard for wanting to get paid.

But not a viking :)

*And* you are a greedy bastard for wanting to get paid.

It's not so much me as my landlord, the utility companies, my local grocer and gas station owners, and a few other venal sorts. I'd be just as happy living in Hosnyland where, evidently, manna falls from heaven, the weather is always temperate, palm fronds are the latest in haute couture, and no one ever has need of doctors and--even better--lawyers...

I don't know about, but I have been making enough money from free software (and eventually free fonts), enough that I'd seriously considered switching career, so may be it is not only "Hosnyland" where "manna falls from heaven".

Ok, Khaled, teach us how to make money by free software.

And I don't mean "freemium", where some are given away to encourage people to buy others, which is already done.

And I don't mean where a big company pays you to produce fonts or software for them, which they eventually give away as part of a product they make money from.

Have you found another way? I'm all ears.

By "eventually free fonts" do you mean that you haven't yet done these? How do you plan to get compensated for giving away your fonts for free?

Interesting discussion here.

Of course there is the legal side and the moral side.

The legal side again is in some countries divided in how much an EULA is actually worth. I can tell you for Austria (and Germany) that an EULA is worth nothing if you are not able to have a look at it before you give your consent to a buying contract (=paying). I guess this might be in many EU countries, this is why many "rules" so not apply.

Sidenote

On a sidetone, I am always fascinated how vigorously people try to enforce the idea behind an EULA and think it is a moral rule to comply. It is not, it is a contract, which is only legal if the conditions under it came to happen are making an EULA binding. This might be different for every person who buys software (depending on country, shopping online/offline, which shop/vendor, etc…). If an EULA does not apply, normal law applies. The producer does not establish universally applicable rules or even a moral code with an EULA. Particularly I am fascinated - as Mac owner - how brainless Mac- and iPhone users defend the "right" of Apple to decide how to restrict their systems. (Mac OS only on Macs, Jailbreaking), while the right comes from the law, as the EULA does not apply, nor from Apple.

Back to topic

So the legal side depends if the EULA applies, and if not, how are intellectual property rights are protected by domestic law.

Sharing among friends and family actually is legal in my country in a limited way, I think. That was called "right for a private copy". But uploading something online in the anonymity of the internet, is not.

So even if one sticks to the law, legality can be a mixed bag.

For the morals, I do think that the creators of fonts should be rewarded for every font that is actually commercially used, not only those officially sold. So yes, font users should pay for their licenses. One should not obtain fonts without permission.

BUT

There is no stealing involved. The act of using and obtaining a font without permission is not theft to me, it is a breach of market rules and intellectual property rights. The IPRs are not stolen, they are broken. I do agree something that is virtual can't be stolen, only unlawfully duplicated.

When it comes to the MARKET, there is no market with the exchange of free software. There is value of labor of the community which created all the code. There is a MARKET for services around free software. As well more and more big companies use the previous development for their own software, because the quality is just convincing and the costs for developing something new can be radically reduced. Thanks to the genius GNU license they need to give back their developed code to the public. Free software is winning right now especially in the mobile OS market.

But when I say there is no market with the exchange of free software, then I mean that there is no market where a piece of free software is being exchanged for a price, which is good. There is anyhow an immense value created by free software, by the services around them, and by the possibilities to develop certain products they open up for other business.

But similar there is no market for shared fonts as such, as who shares a font does not get anything in return. Font-sharers are actually participating in the normal font market, as they simply do see the price higher than the value of a legal license would create for them. Now of course that does not say anything about the morals of it. Does it hurt the market? I guess it depends. In a market setting where there is one threshold where there are people who buy fonts based on the value a legal license has for them (and the risk an illegal font includes) and there are people who do not buy them, on can only change the ratio between the two fractions by:
(a) introducing new differentiations at different price marks
(b) by increasing the quality of the official good (increase language support, Open Type functions, special characters, etc...)
(c) or by increasing the risk an illegal obtained font poses.

The first two things are something you guys can do. Thinking about the creation of "amateur versions" I can imagine here it is hard to find the threshold what should be cut, what not, and give it a price tag. Would it make sense? Depends on how big the market is. Depends if those people who are font-sharers would be convinced enough by the price and feature set to reach into their wallets. Here it is hard to say, as some font-sharers maybe will for ideological reasons refuse to pay any kind of price?

Anyhow what Ray said, which is option (b), makes a shared version (and I assume a fonts gets shared in the beginning, updates then not so much, as for the first version the availability would be higher so the update-share would not compete) less attractive to those people who are likely to pay: professionals. So improving a font might be a good option.

(c) would be the discussed mall-sheriff politics.

my two euro-cents. ;)

@ William Berkson

Whenever I say free software, I mean free software as defined by the free software movement, so as long as the fonts (or any other software) meet these criteria, I'm fine working on it, whether voluntarily or paid.

There is no single way to make money from free software, however it usually works like this for me: I start working on some free project for fun, for learning or scratching an itch, then some company would approach me and offer paying me for doing what I was essentially doing for free because they have some specific need and wants me to give it a higher priority. And that is win-win game, for me, for the company and for the community. Some times the money gets from some NGO or other non-profit organisations that wants to support certain developments that fits with there goals, and free software projects are usually better candidates for such organisations. The same, more or less, applies to my work on fonts.

Khaled, you are being paid to produce this software, so that's my second category, above. I think that's great. In the font world, as in the rest of software, this is a segment of the market. But I fail to see how that is morally superior to producing a font essentially without knowing whether it will pay you anything, and then having people buy it.

In either case you are being supported by the market place, either directly or indirectly. Of course the group paying you may be government or a non-profit corporation, but I still don't see why this is morally superior.

So I would ask: is it immoral for a farmer to invest and produce an apple, and sell it in the market place, for which you need rule of law (the police need to stop thieves from raiding the market)? Is it immoral for a designer to produce a font and sell it in the market place, for which you need IP protection?

Very few high quality fonts are free in the sense of the free software movement you cite. Most fonts used by computer users are now bundled fonts, which cannot legally be shared with those who don't have a license for the software they are bundled with, such as Microsoft Office or Windows, or one of the Adobe products. So I don't see how you can argue that the 'free software' movement will produce all the fonts that people want.

In the case of Web Fonts, we right now see this moving forward as a test case. Raf Levien, who frequents Typophile now and then, has been an advocate of the free software movement, and has led Google's effort to put up free web fonts accessible through Google.

I'm sure that will be a piece of the pie. But also FontFont, Adobe, and FontBureau and Ascender have got on board with web fonts. If history is any guide a lot of those with web sites will find these commercial fonts better for their purposes than the free web fonts that Google is supplying.

The point is, the market place is not in itself immoral, and helps people.

I think the anger against it is misguided. Who am I hurting if design a font on my own time, and offer it on the market place, for those who are willing to license it and not share it with others who may also want to buy it?

They have lots of other options, including free ones. The market place helps develop more and often better options.

I'm glad we don't have the font equivalent of the RIAA. I want the sharing world to exist. It's always going to be a few font versions behind, it lacks tech support which ends up providing incentive to buy. That's the stick that encourages people to consider the option of buying it.

I used to sell personal use licenses the they were ignored. I used to go back to check the domains of who was purchasing the personal use licenses. About half were ad agencies and a look through their portfolios would reveal my fonts being used for commercial use. More than half of the personal use licenses I sold could be seen in commercial use. I'm not exaggerating. I think it's human nature to just buy the cheapest version and ignore the fine print. If you release amateur versions, they will be used for commercial use anyway so it just ends up being a way for commercial users to "cheap out". I used to believe that another price option could be offered but I've since learned that ad agencies always go for the cheapest option, even if commercial use is prohibited.

So how about we keep selling fonts, the file sharers will do their thing and everything's cool.

@ William Berkson

Apple analogies aren't working (at least we don't all agree with it), so lets get over that. Every one is free to produce the fonts he likes, sell them the way he likes, give them for free or do whatever he want, again I've no problem with that. What I've problem with, as far as this thread is concerned, is the continuous effort to stigmatize file sharing, equate to theft, declare it immoral. No, it is not, it might be illegal under certain jurisdictions, and that what is all about. Illegal is not equal to immoral.

Also, people need to understand that you can give your fonts for free and still make profit, right here right now in this world, not in "Hosnyland" where "manna falls from heaven", and it is not only for crazy free software zealots, but also "traditional" foundries .Droid fonts, Liberation fonts and the upcoming Ubuntu font, all are free software (though usually bundled with other free software, can be legally distributed alone) and all were produced by professional foundries that got paid for their work. I'm not suggesting that every one should follow that model, though I'd certainly be happy if every one did, I just want type designers and foundries acknowledge the existence of different economical models than what they are used to, and not quickly dismiss, and laugh on, the idea of free fonts whenever it is brought on.

>the continuous effort to stigmatize file sharing, equate to theft, declare it immoral.

Legality and morality are not identical, as you say. But in the case of illegally sharing font files, yes it is immoral as well, because the law is legitimate. The IP laws give designers create one legitimate way to earn money from their efforts, and to violate the law is to do to them harm, and unethical theft.

If you want that expressed more colorfully, just ask Michael or Tomi, above :)

"and to violate the law is to do to them harm'

Not necessarily.

"and unethical theft"

If we're going to debate laws, let's use the right terms, then. IP infringement is *not* theft.

@aluminum

Please be so kind as to explain these blanket statements...

Could we please hear some numbers? I find unsubstantiated self-pity not exactly helpful.

– By how much did your income drop over the past years?
– Ever see commercial use by someone you know didn't pay?
– How many of the file sharers, you think, would've paid for the font if they hadn't found it online?

Sebastian, it is the nature of this situation that it is hard to tell how much is lost, because it is a counter-factual. You have to estimate what would have happened.

Ray Larabie above gives the first solid evidence I've seen: "More than half of the personal use licenses I sold could be seen in commercial use."

There the fonts were sold, but in use in violation of the EULA. That would also be the case if Font Bureau wins its suit against NBC, or it's settled.

Ray's numbers suggest the losses are considerable, but it is still really hard to say.

Yes, Darryl, infringement is different from stealing apples, because the software producer doesn't lose the apple--the software--when it is illegally copied or used. But it amounts to theft when it deprives the creator of income. While the losses are hard to estimate, for pirates to assume they are zero is self-serving and not credible. Ray's experience testifies that they are real and significant.

I find unsubstantiated self-pity not exactly helpful.

Well, I find snot-nosed cavalier comments not particularly helpful either, so are we even?

Sebastian, it is the nature of this situation that it is hard to tell how much is lost, because it is a counter-factual. You have to estimate what would have happened.

Exactly, so would you give it a guess?
My hypothesis is simply that fonts are way less important than we think. "Normal" people never bought fonts anyway: fifty years ago, maybe you had a typewriter. Twenty years ago, maybe you had a computer.
Today, you can buy a type family for $200 on myfonts. I know a handful of people who "steal" fonts mostly for their personal entertainment. If they can't find what they're looking for in 5 minutes, they use Times and forget about it. They're not your potential clients anyway, so stop worrying.

Ray Larabie above gives the first solid evidence I've seen: "More than half of the personal use licenses I sold could be seen in commercial use."

This, however, may become a problem; especially with my generation now leaving design schools. And I would really be interested in some numbers. Maybe I can do polls somewhere?

@oldnick

To violate the law by copying a digital file without the IP holder's permission is not, in and of itself, harming the IP holder. It may. It may not. To say it does with all certainty is an incorrect blanket statement.

Theft, legally, is the taking of someone's physical property. It has nothing to do with copying digital files. This would be in the context of US Law. It may differ elsewhere.

"But it amounts to theft when it deprives the creator of income. While the losses are hard to estimate, for pirates to assume they are zero is self-serving and not credible."

And the converse is true as well. To assume that they are devastating an industry is only self-serving and not credible.

I understand that POV from within this forum. After all, many folks in here make a living selling digital files. So I don't fault folks for that gut-reaction. But it doesn't really serve the greater debate outside these walls to perpetuate them.

To be fair, perhaps this is less of a debate and more of a venting session, which is perfectly understandable.

To be fair, perhaps this is less of a debate and more of a venting session, which is perfectly understandable.

That was my guess earlier. I think I'm out of here :)

@sebastian_k

What may have consistently failed to grasp in this discussion is that fonts, not unlike fashion accessories, often have a limited shelf life. Is Comic Sans really such a terrible font? Actually, no: it’s well-done and useful in the proper context. The reason that it is so reviled is that it’s used far too often, and used wrongly, far too often, as well.

Fonts come into and go out of fashion and, the more often a font is used, the sooner its popularity will wane. The freeloaders who download from file sharing sites aren’t potential sales lost: the cheap bastards won’t pay for anything they’re not forced to. But each time an unbought font is used, it cheapens the font overall. Here, loss of income isn’t the point: loss of value is.

For example, back in Ye Olden Hippie Days, the folks who began the trend of wearing bellbottoms bought their pants at the Army-Navy store: surplus woolen (real, not Old) Navy bellbottoms with a drop-flap fly fastened by thirteen buttons (note to beer drinkers: not the right apparel choice if you’re planning on hoisting several brews with your buddies). Eventually, niche retailers started offering their versions but, once Sears started selling them, the trend was officially dead.

@aluminum

To violate the law by copying a digital file without the IP holder's permission is not, in and of itself, harming the IP holder.

In US law, that is not true. A copyright holder who registers their copyright is entitled to pursue statutory damages from an infringer, ranging from $750 to $30,000 per work infringed. These statutory damages exist because harm from infringement is presumed.

Theft, legally, is the taking of someone's physical property. It has nothing to do with copying digital files. This would be in the context of US Law.

In US law, that is also not true. "Theft" is not limited to physical property. Theft of services, for example, is still theft. Copyright infringement is also theft. See the No Electronic Theft Act of 1997, which expanded criminal prosecutions for copyright infringement.

Here's an article on "Intellectual Property Theft" published by the US govt:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=998

@William Berkson

FB settled its suit with NBC in March 2010.

"harm from infringement is presumed"

Legally speaking, very true.

But that's simply a presumption (one that was helped along with heavy lobbying for things like the DMCA). In reality, the harm is as likely to not be there as it is to be there.

Which is why true debates on these topics can get complex. The legal arguments don't necessarily always parallel ethical arguments.

"Copyright infringement is also theft. See the No Electronic Theft Act of 1997"

which states...

"Criminal intellectual property theft offenses include copyright and trademark infringement and theft of trade secrets. Civil intellectual property suits include copyright, trademark, and patent infringement."

So, alas, now we're getting into a debate that, sans a law degree, I'm woefully out of my league on. Debating legal semantics sounds like fun, but I'm simply not well versed on it.

Key point, though, is that it's not really that helpful to use analogies to physical property theft. They are such different concepts, both ethically and legally, that I'd argue the use of said analogies only harm the debate rather than help it along.

@oldnick...that's a valid point on the dilution of the value. A fake $50 Prada bag sold on a NYC street corner isn't likely a direct financial hit to Prada, but one can certainly argue that it has lessened Prada's value overall.

That said...an already popular font that is now popular and over-exposed due to file trading is a likely as scenarios as a not popular font that has now become commercially successful due to exposure due to file trading.

What mostly irritates me, though, is your point combined with what Larabie brought up...it sounds like the most likely element contributing to likely lost sales is within the design industry itself. Which is a real shame.

What mostly irritates me, though, is your point combined with what Larabie brought up...it sounds like the most likely element contributing to likely lost sales is within the design industry itself. Which is a real shame.

What he said.

Nick, I never meant to flame, snot-nosed or not. I just think it's unwise to try to turn back time (cf. perception vs. reality). I can walk away from this discussion unharmed, but if it's as bad as you say, then you have to make a decision: stay in business – or not. I care about indie type designers – as opposed to the music/film/software/news giants, who begin to actually annoy me with their complaints about IP theft.
That's why I'm asking for numbers – the way your sales are developing, do you think you will/would still be selling fonts 30 years from now? If you take Ray's attitude, will illegal downloads ruin you before the market over-saturation will?