http://typophile.com/node/28051

Footoorah

> How to pronounce the typeface "FUTURA"

Since "futura" is a Latin feminine adjective (futurus, futura, futurum, e.g. futura scriptura), it is pronounced in this way.

see 25th line from top in this book:

http://books.google.de/books?id=_xr_GSXBbVwC&pg=PA236

http://books.google.de/books?id=_xr_GSXBbVwC&pg=PA236&lpg=PA236&dq=%22fu...

No: For native English speakers, it’s fyuCHUra, or, in IPA, [ˌfjuˈʧ(j)uːɹʌ]. Palatalization is necessary in the first syllable to match future.

Few-ture-uh.

joeclark:

> No: For native English speakers

And how would you have expected the native German speaker Paul Renner (who designed Futura) to pronouce the English word "future"?

> Few-ture-uh.

That's the way I've always heard it pronounced, and with the accent on the 2nd syllable.

Pronouncing it ‘true to original’ can convey professional knowledge, as well as pronouncing it like Johnny Doe can convey sheer ignorance.
E.g. imagine a lecture on a true-to-original revival of a historical typeface by the creator who emphasises how much time went into research but at the same time pronounces all the names etc. like an expert in, say, cow-milking would? Would you believe him/her?

That said, what does ‘true to original’ mean? Do you say Garamond with a nasal? Or Sabon?
Btw, how did Jan Tschichold pronounce Sabon?

> what does ‘true to original’ mean

For better or worse, it's pretty common for pronounciations to change when words cross language borders. Heck, even within a country you can find significant differences from region to region due to regional accents.

And I suspect that when U.S. words spread to other countries, the same thing happens and they pronounce them using their local accents. (An exception might be words that they constantly hear pronounced the original way in commercials or in news reports. For example, I suspect that "McDonalds" is pronounced the same everywhere.)

I suspect that "McDonalds" is pronounced the same everywhere

You would be surprised! ;-)

Joe, not all English native speakers will pronounce Futura like you do, and your analogy with 'future' doesn't necessarily hold.

In 'future', the historical cluster /tj/ ('t' followed by the 'y' sound) is changed to /tʃ/ (the 'ch' sound) because it occurs in an unstressed syllable. This much is common to most dialects of English.

However, when a historical /tj/ comes in a stressed syllable as it does in Futura, it is treated differently depending on dialect. In many American pronunciations, in fact, it is likely to turn into a plain /t/ (i.e. 'tune' is pronounced identically to 'toon'), a phenomenon called yod-dropping. Others preserve the /tj/, and still others will turn it into /tʃ/ (yod-coalescence).

The last alternative is not something really associated with North American English. Do you also pronounce 'Turing' and 'enduring' as 'CHOOR-ing' and 'in-JURE-ing'? If not, your pronunciation can only be explained as a back-formation from 'future'. If Futura followed the normal course of English phonological development, we would expect it to be pronounced 'few-TOOR-uh' by those who have yod-dropping after 't'. I would expect 'few-CHOOR-uh' from someone who orders CHOO-na sandwiches, but it sounds jarring to me from a North American speaker.

Nick's suggestion of 'few-TURE-uh' is the best since it works for any speaker, whether they preserve, drop, or coalesce the yod.

I come from middle America and I pronounce it as Nick says, and have heard it this way. I'm impressed, Jongseong, I haven't seen anyone writing about American pronunciation, though I suppose it must exist in linguistics literature. That's right on.

In Italian, Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries it would be pronounced as Riccardo pointed: footoorah, directly derivated from Latin futurus.

Yes, I must clarify I was talking about the pronunciation in English. Different languages have different conventions for pronouncing Latinate names. In English, there's a broad agreement on pronouncing these. It's more complicated for French names (e.g. Garamond, Sabon) because there is tradition of both anglicizing the pronunciation (think Napoleon) and trying to imitate the French pronunciation to varying degrees, often with several pronunciations co-existing.

William, as you can tell I'm a bit of a phonetics enthusiast. After re-reading what I wrote, I'm not sure I'm entirely making sense to those not familiar with the jargon!

Writing the pronunciation as 'few-TURE-uh' works because TURE will be interpreted as starting with a historical /tj/. Many (including most Americans) will pronounce it as TOUR, others as TYOOR or CHOOR, so this one spelling covers all the possibilities. My own English mostly follows the features of Northeast American pronunciation, but I have no yod-dropping after 't', i.e., I distinguish 'tune' and 'toon'. So I personally say few-TYOOR-uh.

Being from Illinois, I drop my 'yods' all over the place. I find it amusing that linguistics uses the Hebrew name for the 'y' sound—as it also uses "shwa" for that sound. I wonder how that came about...

as simple minded as this sounds in the face of so much eddicated erudition, If you say it like you'd read it -- in what ever accent, language or dialect is spoken where you happer to live, you can't go wrong.

I suspect that "McDonalds" is pronounced the same everywhere.)

Bienvenue à McDo , monsieur .

When I go on holiday to Paris, I don't go on holiday to /pɑˈri/. I go to /pæ.ɹɪs/. But I go to the same place as a Frenchman who's going to /pɑˈri/. No-one's seriously trying to tell me that one of us has got that wrong?

I don’t agree with Jongseong. It’s “future” with different stress and an uh at the end. We are not discussing palatalization and assibilation in general, or, to say it another way, we are not discussing how New York Jews, Quebec French–accented English-speakers, or dudes with a really gay accent would pronounce the word.

“Footoora” is as incorrectly hypercorrect as white people pronouncing Nicaragua.

Do you say “Paree” for the largest city in France, too?

People take their cue for how to pronounce a word from how they've heard their peers say it, up to a point.
When I was a young ad agency art director in the 1980s and Jerry Schoolenberg of Techni-Process used to call on me every week with specimens of the latest ITC faces or whatever, it was his implicit responsibility to fill me in on how to say new type names like Benguiat, or, for that matter, old ones like Univers, because he'd heard them already. The trades had been bull pens for centuries, so there was nothing remotely "gay" in the way they pronounced words; they said them like they were written in their own language,-- rather like an English football commentator at the World Cup.

So, for all you hardcore butch type geeks out there, say it like its wrote, damn it!
However, if you are more the aficionado, some kind of foreign accent will glamorize your persona, along with an expressive hand gesture.

"I suspect that "McDonalds" is pronounced the same everywhere"

I can't remember how many years it has been since I have seen ANY native English speakers working in McDonalds. They are from every non-english speaking country in the world except the USA. You are more likely to hear "McDonalds" pronounced with a middle eastern or Spanish accent than any other.

“Footoora” is as incorrectly hypercorrect as white people pronouncing Nicaragua.

I had Latin for six years in school (a long time ago). I am in the same opinion as Riccardo and Uli. Footoorah! I think it is the nominalization of the adjective futura (femininum). I just don’t know, how I should translate “typeface” into Latin – probably as construction of the plural of nota (notae). I assume, Paul Renner had the German word “Schrift” (which is femininum) in mind, when he used the feminine form of the adjective futurus. So Futura probably has to translate to the “future (typeface)” or, in German, to “die Zukünftige” (“die zukünftige Schrift”).

Do you say “Paree” for the largest city in France, too?

That isn’t comparable. “Paree” is already the wrong pronunciation of Paris (the character from Greek mythology). As far as I remember the a in Paris (Πάρις) is long, when the character is meant. In German the name of the character from Greek mythology is differently pronounced than the name of the French main town.

You go to McDonalds?! :)

Paris is a wrong example, because, historically, cities of note had different proper names in different languages. So, for example, Milano is Mailand in German, it’s Milan in French and Milan in English. But, even if written the same, those are different words: one is French, thus pronounced according to french pronunciation, while the other is an English word, pronounced accordingly.

Arno, neither German nor Latin (does anyone know how it was really pronounced?) sets the standard for English pronunciation of words introduced by Germans. And English doesn't set the standard for German, or Spanish, or Chinese pronunciation of words introduced by English or Americans. Neither can dictate to the other.

Diversity, tolerance.

Diversity, tolerance.

Respect, knowledge.

“Footoora” is as incorrectly hypercorrect as white people pronouncing Nicaragua.

In the countries I referred, footoorah is the pronounce because futura already exist as a regular word. In Portuguese, Italian and Spanish, futura is the feminine for the adjective future. "Future situation" become "situação futura" (pt) or "situacción futura" (es). As I said, it's a direct derivation from Latin futurus.

Latin (does anyone know how it was really pronounced?)

Latin heritage in many living languages gives a reliable idea of this. AFAIK, ancient pronounce is not an issue for neolatin languages.

Choose whichever finger you want to use to point to the moon. It's still just a finger.

@ William

In my opinion Futura is a Latin word and therefore it should be prounounced in the Latin way. In the Latin word “non” the o is long for example. In English it is short, but it has become to an English word, while Futura is still Latin – like Minerva. I think, there is only one correct pronunciation of Minerva except from different Latin dialects, which probably have existed. But I am not a linguist.

In my opinion Futura is a Latin word and therefore it should be prounounced in the Latin way. [Arno Enslin]

The pronunciation of latin varies from country to country, as you can see on the corresponding wiki link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_regional_pronunciation

Good point, Arno. Agreed.

Michel, regional variations does exist in any language. Even a quasi extinct language talked by <200 people, as some from Northwest America, has regional variations. Anyway, classical and vulgar Latin were well consolidated in most of Italic peninsule and there are not so much discussion about their main pronounce.

The article you referred focuses on Latin-derivated languages and Latin influence in other tongues.

let's call the whole thing off

I like Uhdohbeh Uhpplecuhteuhns.

Do you say “Paree” for the largest city in France, too?

Joe, you've misunderstood my whole point. I treated Futura like a normal English word from Latin. I wasn't suggesting that we apply a Classical Latin pronunciation, though others in this thread have.

English has lots of words from Latin, and there's a pattern to how they are pronounced. There are complex alternations to the vowels according to which syllables receive stress, but native speakers have mostly internalized these rules. So we can read a word like 'sesquicentennial' which we have never heard pronounced, but can reasonably guess that it would be pronounced sesk-wee-sen-TEN-ee-uhl, while 'sesquicentenary' would be sesk-wee-SENT-uh-nare-ee. I'm just applying these rules to derive that Futura would be pronounced few-TURE-uh in English, and at least based on this thread this is what many other native speakers have come up with.

English pronunciation being the complicated beast it is, your reasoning for your pronunciation (appealing to the pronunciation of a similar word) doesn't hold in general. 'Misery' isn't pronounced like 'miser' with an 'ee' at the end. Just out of curiosity, how do you pronounce 'century' and 'centurion'? Many North American speakers will have SEN-cher-ee for the former but sen-TOUR-ee-uhn for the latter. It is by a similar process that one would expect 'future' and 'Futura' to be pronounced FEW-cher and few-TOUR-uh for these speakers.

>Respect, knowledge.

I am all in favor of both.

Knowledge tells me that most native Germans and Italians and Japanese, etc, etc, who learn English after childhood will never pronounce most English words as a native Englishman—or American—does.

Respect tells me I shouldn't be lecturing you when you use an English word when speaking your own language and pronounce it more closely to the way the word would be read using the rules and phonemes of your own language. These pronunciations become standard in the language, and those who affect a foreign accent for them sound odd or pretentious, and may not even be understood by other native speakers.

It shows a lack of knowledge and respect to chastise or ridicule those who, when speaking their native language, pronounce foreign words more closely to their own native language.

I know a fellow who is truly bilingual in Cantonese and "Proper" English English. When he uses Chinese words in English he completely butchers them in exactly the same way that the English do--a way that a Chinese speaker probably wouldn't even understand. When he speaks Chinese, his pronunciation is completely native. Why? Because he wants to be understood, and knows what he's doing. Knowledge and respect.

By the way, when speaking German or French I would always say "footoora", and I'm told my accent is not too bad. --Unfortunately my knowledge of both of those languages is a lot worse than my accent! When speaking English I use my "few-ture-a". Why? Knowledge and respect.

William, great post. I agree 100%.

Joe implicitly suggested his own pronunciation was the only correct one for English native speakers, and it is this statement that I'm disagreeing with as someone quite interested in the topic of English pronunciation. Since the original poster wanted to know, I've explained how I think most native speakers would pronounce the name.

But I recognize that Futura is not an everyday English word and that many pronunciations are possible. Joe's pronunciation of Futura, atypical as it may be for a speaker of his background (although I'm assuming a lot here just based on his being from Toronto), is not 'wrong'. In fact, there is a certain sense and logic to each of the pronunciations suggested here.

I've used wrong pronunciations for 'awry', 'sword', even 'shepherd' at various points in my life, and am currently butchering French words every day while living in Paris. I make the effort to get my pronunciations right, and at the same time am understanding when others make mistakes. And as an English speaker still not quite used to the French pronunciations of English names, I can see why the traditional English pronunciation of Latin names sounds wrong to many non-English speakers here. We just have to recognize that we all have different traditions of pronouncing such names.

By the way, McDonald's is often just pronounced 'mahg-doh' (McDo) here in France.

Agreed.

When the correct pronounciation is obscure and/or little-known, the wrong pronounciation communicates more effectively. People not familiar with the correct one, upon hearing it, may not know what you're talking about.

And of course most native speakers of English will assume that Futura is pronounced like "future", but with an -a sound added at the end. They would not normally know that the face was designed by someone living in Europe whose native language was not English. Had the name "Futura" been coined by Madison Avenue, the wrong pronounciation would have been the real one.

John (quadibloc), the point is, pronouncing 'futura' as few-TURE-a in English is not a "wrong" pronunciation of a Latin word pronounced the German way.

The way a loan word is pronounced in the original language is NOT automatically the "correct" way in another language. Thus the The German way is not the standard for "rightness" in English.

That the point Jongseong and I have been arguing, Jongseong with a lot of knowledge of linguistics and English and American pronunciation. For example, the "r" in "Futura" spoken by Renner would be the guttural "r" of German, which is not a sound in English. So the word has to be adapted, in any case. What about in say, Cantonese, which I believe has no "r",(see the Wikipedia article) do they have to say it the German way as well?

My basic premis is to say it to communicate to your audience. Years ago, I regularly went to a typesetter called Harvey. Harvey was from the old printing background--trade school, apprentice, journeyman. He was a printer by trade. He spoke the down to earth way. If i were asking him to set a job for me, I would say "Fuewturra" because that was the way he knew it and everyone else in the shop knew it. I once asked him to use "Unayvare" and he said, "What?", looking at me like I was from Neptune. I had slipped and used the pronunciation I had learned in a fine upstanding University from European born professor named Gui. It can be tough switching back and forth between talking to Harvey and Gui. Being oh so precise and insisting on correcting Harvey would have been rude and pretentious. Besides, he would have just spit a chaw of tobacco in a can and ignored me. Harvey was a good typesetter. He was accurate, fast, and knew his H&J. Gui was a very nice, very educated man who would have just smiled and said, "Zat iss vut you might call "Universe" here in America, no? No need to be impolite to either one of them.

I am always in great admiration of the many European, South American, and Asian visitors I have met here in the United States. Even though I might have to strain just a bit to understand their pronunciation of English, I am thrilled that they can do it. I would never dream of scolding them for their way of pronouncing words. I never correct them unless they ask me to. If I don't understand, I ask for further explanation. I have met many wonderful people who struggle with English. If I were such an arrogant jerk as to only talk to people who speak perfect English, I would have missed out on meeting so many friends. I just wish I could speak their languages half as well as they speak English.

ChrisL

I believe each country/region will pronounce according to their culture, especially considering how other words were loaned from different languages. So, "correct" is always relative. Maybe just in international events like TypeCon this would be an issue, although a minor one.

Chris, you described a recorrent situation for me. In Brazil, there is no problem to pronounce well know words in their original way. Everybody knows how to say celebrities names or widely spread films and songs. But if I try to pronounce Ludwig van Beethoven properly, as in German, I may sound pretentious, affected and arrogant to many audiences.

The argument, that your counterpart understands you better, if you pronounce words in a way, that he is accustomed, is only partly valid. If your counterpart is not an ignorant, correct him. Not in the manner of an elitist arrogant teacher.

“Few-ture-uh” is not the English pronunciation of a Latin word. If you say “Few-ture-uh”, you have fully integrated “Few-ture-uh” into the English language. I miss a bit the respect for other languages there, because the name of the typeface is relatively young and it is a every day word for printers and typographers only. You cannot pronounce Latin words in an English way. If you say “Few-ture-uh” it is okay. But then it is also okay, if a German says “Uhdohbeh”, “Nav York”, “Houdsohn” or “Wohrld Trahdeh Center”. Most Germans, that know it better, would probably correct their German counterpart, if he says “Nav York”.

@ Freiberger

Since Clockwork Orange the correct pronunciation is “Loodwick Fun”.

> “Few-ture-uh” is not the English pronunciation of a Latin word.

Caesar would not have understood the English pronunciation of Latin :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin#...

Compare e.g. the pronunciation of "fortuna" with "futura".

Arno, English has used Latin words for a long time and has developed its own traditions of pronouncing them. You can't say pronouncing Futura in such a fashion is wrong because it is different from how we reconstruct Latin pronunciation (which itself went through numerous changes over the centuries that it was spoken). By the same token, we don't say a German pronouncing Venus as 'FEH-nuss' is wrong because that was not how Julius Caesar would have pronounced it.

It is not comparable to English or German speakers mangling names in other languages that are spoken today.

Caesar would not have understood the English pronunciation of Latin :-)

Shakespeare would not have understood today's pronunciation of English. :) (Seriously, that's how much the pronunciation changed since his time.)

But Futura isn't a loanword. It's a product proper name. Usually marketing departments decide how to pronounce these ;-)

(by the way, Venus isn't a good example, because proper German has several exceptions where V is not pronounced F)

by the way, Venus isn't a good example, because proper German has several exceptions where V is not pronounced F

You're right, the pronunciation with 'f' is not preferred for Venus in proper German. Perhaps a better example is the habit of introducing 'ts' sounds everywhere, as in Cicero.

There is only a handful of Germans, who correctly pronounce Venus. Not German is my measuring stick, but Latin. The e in the Latin word Venus is short.

I just found out while reading a description of North American English pronunciation that there were those who systematically pronounce 'TURE' as 'CHOOR' in a stressed syllable even if they pronounce a long 'TU' as 'TOO' when followed by consonants other than 'r'. So these people will say 'TOOB' and 'TOON-uh' for 'tube' and 'tuna', but 'muh-CHOOR' and 'CHOOR-ing' for 'mature' and 'Turing'. This explains why Joe and presumably John (quadibloc) pronounce it 'few-CHOOR-uh'. I wasn't familiar with this variation, which was why I was stumped at hearing it coming from North Americans.

Joe, you do realize that 'few-TURE-uh' is a perfectly valid description of your own pronunciation if you regularly pronounce 'TURE' as 'CHOOR'? The point is that we're all talking about the same underlying pronunciation, even if there is some variation in how it comes out from the mouths of different people.

Arno, long ago when I was taught Latin, if I remember rightly "ad hoc" in the system I was taught should be pronounced ahd hoak. But the pesky Oxford Concise English Dictionary tells me what is correct is "ad (as ADvertising) hahk." The (American) on-line Miriam Webster dictionary gives "ad" as in "advertising" (the nasalized a, not existing in Latin, or German), and then "hahk" as the first pronunciation for "hoc" and the alternative as "hoak". You can listen to it on the site.

Et cetera should, in the system I was taught, be pronounced "et ketera." But for all English speakers it is "Et Setera." And Julius Caesar is always with a J as in juice, not as I was taught is correct Latin, "yul-ee-us", and we always say "sieze-er", not the more Latin "kai-sar".

The way foreign words, whether loan words like "et cetera" or proper names like "Julius Caesar" are pronounced is somewhat arbitrary in English—and any language—as they range from close to native to to totally Anglicised. But what happens is that one version gradually becomes established, and is certified in a dictionary.

About 60% of English vocabulary comes from Latin words, either via French or directly from Latin. Probably none of them are pronounced in a strictly French or Latin way--under anybody's system of Latin.

Tell me, why should I ignore hundreds of millions of native English speakers and all English dictionaries?

@ William

About 60% of English vocabulary comes from Latin words, either via French or directly from Latin.

And because of that you have the pretensions, to anglicize every Latin word or every foreign word with a Latin origin at once?

With regard to hoc (hic, haec, hoc) my Latin dictionary is regarding to the third century AC. The o in hoc is indeed long in Latin (in contradiction to the i in hic – the pronunciation pronunciation seems to have changed in the end of the second century AC), but not in the Germanized hoc. But in contradiction to Futura, which is a proper noun, the Germanization of hoc has taken much longer than the Anglicizing of Futura.

Please tell me, what you would think about a German, who says Uhdohbeh instead of Adobe. Well, probably you would smile only, but a German, who knows only a bit English would correct the speaker, because his hackles would get up. Adobe is likewise a proper noun.

Uli’s example is nice: If you would pronounce it in the way, that I assume you do, Fortuna would summon Nemesis.

I think, the fact, that Futura is a proper name (Riccardo’s argument), is the most valid argument.

Jongseong:

I should like to express my admiration for your high-class linguistic contributions to this thread.

Arno Enslin:

> The e in the Latin word Venus is short.

This is also a high-class linguistic observation.

("venus" is derived from the Sanskrit root "van", with the short vowel "a", although this does not prove the short vowel "e" of "venus". For details to "van" and "venus", see Mayrhofer, Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Altindoarischen, Heidelberg 1996, Band 2, Seite 501).

If we want to define the "proper" pronunciation of a given word, we cannot do this without defining the period of time, when the word was used. As Jongseong stated correctly, Shakespeare would not have understood today's pronunciation of English.

If we want to define the "original" pronunciation of "Futura" as a font name, the proper period of time would be the lifetime of Paul Renner. The way, Paul Renner pronounced "Futura", is the proper original pronunciation of this font name.

If we want to define the "proper" pronunciation of "futura" as a Latin adjective, we must define the period of time, to which our definition refers (e.g. the pronunciation of the adjective "futurus/a/um" during the lifetime of Caesar, as apposed to, e.g., the pronunciation of this adjective by medieval scribes in monasteries).

For ancient languages such as Latin, Sanskrit etc., the "original" pronunciation cannot be defined with certainty. See for example www.sanskritweb.net/deutsch/ipa_sans.pdf

Was Futura the first example of a type brand name to follow the "three syllables ending in 'a' " model?

We could go on about Futura for ever: its provenance and pedigree suggest that there is some kind of authoritative pronunciation. But is it really any more of an issue, pronunciation-wise, than, say, Verdana?

Vuh-dun-uh
Vair-daah-nuh
Vurr-daah-naahh
&c., &c.

...we must define the period of time, to which our definition refers...

So what are you saying, Uli, the future isn't what it used to be? :-)

Arno, the fact is that there is no official standard pronunciation for Futura in English. Otherwise there wouldn't be a question. Given that, and looking to adopt a standard, we can be helped by how other foreign words are treated in English.

As I said, and as shown by voluminous evidence, and as eruditely explained by Jongseong, there no imperative in English to pronounce Latin words as Latin.

As to commenting on how a German says "Adobe," that would depend on 1. whether he is speaking German or English. and 2. whether he is interesting in pronouncing it as in English. If he is speaking German, I will be struggling to understand. I think it is up to Germans how they want to pronounce Adobe in German, not me. Unlike you, I don't think I have authority to dictate to speakers of other languages.

If he is speaking English, I won't be so rude as to correct his English pronunciation, I hope, unless asked. Of course if I don't understand what he is saying, I will ask.

If he is speaking English, I won't be so rude as to correct his English pronunciation.

Well, you cannot correct my pronunciation, but feel free to correct my grammar or orthography. (You probably had much to do and it would make threads unclear. But with regard to me I would not conceive that as rude.)

"I miss a bit the respect for other languages there, because the name of the typeface is relatively young and it is a every day word for printers and typographers only."

I doubt very much that my old typesetter Harvey ever heard Futura pronounced any other way than his way in his lifetime. I am sure he meant no disrespect to other languages, he was just using a word in the only way he knew and he was clearly being understood by everyone he worked with. Clear communication is the main reason for language.
My last name is never pronounced properly by anyone who does not speak Greek. This is not because people are disrespecting Greek, it is just that the differences between Greek and whatever their native language is is so foreign to them that it is not in their memory of sounds and speech patterns. I do not fault them for this. As long as I know what they mean, I am fine hearing "Lazose" "Lawzis" "Lowzis" "Lewzis" or what ever else. The only time I will ever address someone about my name is if it seems they completely misunderstood it the the point of confusion. That is if they pronounce it like another name, "Lewis". I even had it pronounced "Lozotto" by my Junior High gym teacher. He wrongly assumed that I was of Italian ancestry and tried to say it as his vision of how it might be in Italian. :-)
The worst case of pronunciation of my name was when I was 45 years ago while I was in boot camp. My drill instructor called me "Lozoa" as in Low-Zoe-Ah. When I told him the correct way, he insisted that I was wrong! He even had my name written LOZOA on my paychecks :-) It took me months to get it corrected in my service records. This was truly a case of "military intelligence" at its best.

ChrisL

William Berkson:

> Arno, the fact is that there is no official standard pronunciation for Futura in English.

However, there is an official standard pronunciation for Futura in German, contained in the authoritative German pronunciation dictionary "DUDEN Aussprachewörterbuch", third edition 1990, on page 314, first column, second line:

www.sanskritweb.net/temporary/futura.gif

This is the definitive German pronunciation (in IPA phonetic notation) of the "Schrift" (= font) "Futura" in German, and this is most certainly the original pronunciation used by Paul Renner.

@ Chris

And how is Lozos correctly pronounced?

This was truly a case of "military intelligence" at its best.

Sounds like you have learned from this experience. When you have gone to the army, you probably had no choice, because, as far as I remember, you are in an age, when there was a general conscription in the USA, had you? And in Greece there is still a general conscription (without the alternative of civil services), as far as I know.

I think, it was better for me and the army, that I didn’t do military service, because there had been two alternatives only: Either they had directly interned me or I first had shot the drill instructor.

How to pronounce the typeface "FUTURA"

Spartan

"When you have gone to the army, you probably had no choice, because, as far as I remember, you are in an age, when there was a general conscription in the USA, had you? "

Yes, we were drafted then. It was the Vietnam War era, so they drafted millions of us--otherwise I would never have voluntarily gone to Vietnam.

My name is pronounced as it is spelled "Lozos". I cannot phonetically capture it using latin glyphs. Anything reasonably close is fine with me. The test would be if you call my name and I answer :-)

The test would be if you call my name and I answer :-)

Now there's the pragmatist answer to correct pronunciation! :-)

@ Chris

Spontaneously I would pronounce it Lotsoss, where the first o is a mix of an a (army) and an o (ortography).

William,

it's interesting to know how Latin pronounce is taught in English. Some of the words you pointed are said exactly equal in Portuguese, some are very different. Of course, this is due the way each language incorporated the words.

But Latin also variated a lot while it was used. For example, letters J and U does not exist in early Latin. So we find JUSTITIA, IUSTITIA and IVSTITIA in Latin inscriptions according to its time. BTW, Julius is pronounced yul-lee-us in Latin (at least, the Latin we know nowadays), but the J pronounce itself varies a lot in neolatin languages.

I don't know how to describe the "o" vowel sound other than to say it is more like the Italian or even Spanish pronunciation. The "z" is said more like the z in Zoo Which is based on the Greek word for animals, Zoa. It does not have the Germanic "ts" sound like the Americans pronounce "Pizza", it is more the straight buzz sound of Zebra in English or "Zed" in Polish.

"But Latin also variated a lot while it was used."

So does the American form of English. If you travel from Maine to Atlanta to Minneapolis to Texas to Detroit to New Orleans, you will get a very different version of "American" pronunciation.

Holy Renner, is this thing still on? Now after 65 replies, I guess it is about time to move on to the next level:
How do you pronounce Steile Futura?

>Steile Futura

I just give up and try to say it in German :)

Juust think "Streetcar Named Desire" Florian :-)

Shtile?

> Shtile?

Stiehl!

Proper pronunciation is affected by the "who" is speaking as well as the "who" is spoken to, not just the point of origin of the word.
If Eric Spiekermann were speaking German to Willi Kunz, who would be correct? Would this be different if they were both in Germany? both in Switzerland? both in Austria? Does even someone from Berlin speak the same as someone from Bavaria? What about Mr Spiekermann saying a French word to JFP? I have heard many people from different countries speaking a second language to a third person who is native to yet another country. People have accents or dialects or colloquialisms and they cannot extract them easily. This is not because they intend it to be so, it is just a reality. What if we had a Swiss from Lausanne, a Canadian from Quebec, an American from Louisiana, an Italian from Torino, and a Frenchman from Marseillie all speaking French? Would they ever be able to have a conversation without correct each other's pronunciation? What if the same people were speaking English together? If we were to allow that language was a means of communications for people who care to converse, we would see that expecting and accepting exact pronunciation would make conversation impossible. We are better off just accepting that foreigners to us are just doing the best they can with their individual backgrounds.
We are all likely to have heard the speaking voice of former U.S. Presidents Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Carter, W Bush, and Clinton. There is a broad spectrum of ways of pronunciation of just American English.

Good thing the theme for this years TypeCon is "Babel". ;-)

"Stiehl!"

Danka!

Chris, that's Uli's last name, not how you say it in German, which would be Sht-EYE-le foo-TOO-ra, with the gutteral r, if I've got it right.

"> Shtile?

Stiehl!"

Sorry Uli, I had no idea that was your name, I was just trying to phonetically pronounce the "Steile" from Steile Futura and the question mark was just to say "is this correct"

Chris

When I got a new job, my Dutch co-workers were surprised to here me call a font "Mean-Jon", as they preferred "Minni-Jon".

Dutch vowels are pronounced quite differently from English and French ones; I've heard "Tea-mess", "Gar-Ah-Mont", "Comeak Sans", and "Unee-Verse", where I prefer (I think) English, and for some, French pronunciations (Garamond, Sabon).

I never had problems finding the intended font, so the discussion appears academical. Is there a font where bad articulation could cause confusion?

Is there a font where bad articulation could cause confusion?

Jenson (from Frenchman Nicolas Jenson) and Janson (from Dutchman Anton Janson) could cause confusion.

Is there a font where bad articulation could cause confusion?

"Garamond" and "Garamont"

Neutraface:
http://typophile.com/node/64939

...all this keeps making me think of Chank's Asswipe ("ah-swee-pay")...

future-ah? perhaps? :-] hehe

I Think there is not one way of saing Futura,
this depends on the lenguaje your speaking.

"Banana" is a common word in several languajes,
but it's pronounced differently according to
the diferences of each lenguaje.

This is just my opinion.

There is also the correct option of trying
to pronounce Futura in german (becouse Paul
Renner was frin Germany).

In spanish we pronouce something like: "foo.too.ra"

How do germans pronounce it?

Ф У Т У Р А is easy. Now try П Е Н Ь О (Peignot)…

I agree with Maxim :-), I suppose all Slavonic languages users have no problem with F U T U R A / Ф У Т У Р А. And (last but not least) Lingua Latina was the language of educated people for last 1000 years.

Neutra is a pronoun in Latin, but not an adjective. The term Neutraface is more synthetic than Futura. Does Neutra in Neutraface mean neutral? Or is the word even more synthetical?: Neu (new) / tra(ditionell) (traditional) / face.

Does Neutra in Neutraface mean neutral? Or is the word even more synthetical?: Neu (new) / tra(ditionell) traditional) / face.

No, Neutra in Neutraface means Neutra. :-)

Then it is clear, how Neutraface has to be the pronounced – in my opinion.

About Neutra, it’s all explained in the thread I linked to.
I was joking, just to lighten up the thread! ;-)

ФЮТУРА

ФУЧУРА

ПЕЙНЁ

Actually there's an invisible "r" in there - it's pronounced "fartura"...
Geometry in type design is just hot gas.

hhp

And "fartura" in Portuguese is "abundance".

Ah!
And "fart" in Polish means luck.

hhp

Not to mention 'fart' also means 'speed' in Scandinavian languages.

And by the way, have you met many people in the région parisienne that do not pronounce fytyˈʁa ?

To be truthful, I don't remember anyone around here saying the name Futura out loud; off line, I do not hang out much with a typography-oriented crowd. But I fully expect to hear fytyˈʁa for Futura, and that's how I pronounce it in my head in French.

I have a place in Emsturrthem — eh, sorry, Amsterdam.

Fuh-thue-rah

Guess how the French pronounce my name! :-/

hhp

From now on, after studying this thread very closely, I'm pronouncing it AvantGarde

OK... How do the French pronounce your name Hrant. :o)

Ghan. The "n" is silent.

hhp

"...in your general dirrection"

:-)