Have you considered Reading?
http://www.typefacedesign.org/2009/

BTW, Typophile rules, but have you also been reading type books and analyzing the work of others? I’m self-taught, and I’ve been online for over a decade, but I don’t feel saturated. Maybe I’m just less absorbent though. :-)

hhp

>>>Maybe I’m just less absorbent though. :-)

More the other way around, Hrant, you just ooze ‘sharing’!
Happy X-mas to you and your loved ones!
(Just had a great pre-Xmas dinner with my parents, kids etc.…)

. . .
Bert Vanderveen BNO

hrant, as awesome as it sounds, I don’t have the means to pursue Reading. I’ve read Letters of Credit and Doyald Young’s Fonts & Logos.

There are other books you should try, notably Anatomy of a Typeface. It might be helpful if you put some sample of your work somewhere that folks could get an idea of what level you’re at now... preferably an actual font, if not that say a lower-case “a” shown in a font editor such that the outline construction is clear, as well as a PDF sample of the font.

Cheers,

T

Those books are a great start. But the iceberg is much much larger! :-)

(Bert, you’re too kind. And not just on Xmas.)

hhp

Thomas,
Thanks for the suggestions. Here’s a pdf of what I’m currently on in case anyone’s interested.

I took a look at your pdf, (and first: nice work). You should fatten your dot for i. Using that with ’i macron’, you get in trouble.

Your overshoot of (I guess two or three units) does not work. With such wide design, you should keep all glyphs in x-height.

With ink trapping, have you considered putting two control points instead of one when it gets really tight?

Your ’A’ looks too narrow, and ’S’ too wide.

Tomi is right about the overshoot, I think. At least when you have flat sections the way you currently do.

On the “a” I’m thinking the curves in the bowl of the “a” don’t work well with the very short straight sections. I’d either eliminate the straight elements or increase their length.

Anyhow, this certainly gives a fair idea of what level of work you’re doing, so if anybody feels like volunteering to give you feedback offline, they can. You might also consider using the critique forum here, of course.

Cheers,

T

Your tittles look like macrons to me - how would it look to make them match the stem width (rather than the serif width) of i and j?

I second the idea of posting this to the critique forum here. I’ve found it can be a very helpful place at this level.

I recommend that you befriend at least one of the NYC type designers and take a train in now and then to get feedback in person. One-on-one discussions of my fonts with the people here have dramatically improved my work. It’s allowed me to make huge leaps in the quality and complexity of my type, and the family I’m finishing now is an incredible improvement over my work so far.

Exactly James, that’s really what I’m aiming to find with this :)

If that’s your goal you’ll need to be persistent and contact people directly. Or if you can get off work early once a week for a semester take James Montalbano’s type design class at SVA. He’s a great teacher.

Thanks for that JamesP. I think everyone made a lot of progress in the SVA Type Design class.

Koleslaw, asking someone to be your personal type critic is an awful lot to ask. There is a lot of work involved in critiquing a typeface design. If it is possible to take my SVA class on Tuesday nights I would recommend it. Not only would you have me picking apart everything you did, but the other students in the class add a lot to the critique as well.

James M

I’m sure taking your class would be well worth it—too bad I don’t live near NY. As some of you mentioned, a good book could be the intermediate step I need aside from the crit board. It’s just that the ones I’ve seen are about the history and typographic terms that I’m familiar with already. I guess i”ll search through previous posts to find a more advanced book than the ones I’ve seen.

Whether you have a formal teacher or not, good books certainly help a lot, and you can’t really be satisfied just with those two. One good recent book is Cheng’s “Designing Type”.

BTW, there is one other way: apprenticeship. Some accomplished type designers would be open to exchanging their insight/critique for you to do some of the more menial tasks in type design.

hhp

Some accomplished type designers would be open to exchanging their insight/critique for you to do some of the more menial tasks in type design.

That kind of thing doesn’t happen much anymore. I looked into this and it’s really hard to get any kind of type apprenticeship/internship unless you’ve got a Reading/KaBK degree, already released a few type families, or took a type design class at one of the American schools where its taught by a type designer.

I’ve often thought I’d love to take on an apprentice at a more middling level (pre-Reading/KABK). I just have to figure out how to convince folks at my current job that we need to develop some of our own typefaces. :)

(Note: Don’t hold your breath on this one.)

cheers,

T

One good recent book is Cheng’s “Designing Type”.

I cannot agree here. Not a very good book IMO.

I also think that apprenticeships are few and far between. I teach at SVA and I’ll be teaching undergraduate type design at Parsons this Spring, but I personally would never take on an intern or apprentice. Other type designers may do this, but I cannot afford to take the time. I have to work very fast, and I work alone.

Read “Counterpunch”. That will teach you oodles. Worked with me.

And just went through your sample again, and would revise ’v’, ’s’, ’x’ ’two’ and four’.

One more thing to keep in mind Koleslaw. Getting a critique is a delicate business. The person giving the critique is placing their aesthetic judgement on your work, and can, conscientiously or not, try to force your work into their narrow view of what is correct. Be careful.

My 2 cents: Don’t let not having a dedicated mentor/teacher —no doubt, a pretty awesome concept— discourage you.
FWIW, I’ve had a bit of formal education in type design (a part-time postgrad class) but during that same time I actually learned more here + through books + at a couple of type conferences maybe. There’s so much material out there, so much to learn; so much type to study. Libraries to dig through. Even just reading through the archives here reveals a ton of concepts to explore, and things to learn about. Sink the teeth of your curiosity into every bit you can get! It’s hard, and requires more initiative, but it sure can work.

Kosal — Another suggestion to help your development: Consider attending one of the annual type conferences. Many provide workshops, which can give a shot in the arm. More importantly, these are good places to meet and establish professional relationships with other type folks, which could lead to the kind of one-on-one critiques you seek.

In the U.S., TypeCon may be the easiest to get to (in Los Angeles next August). But there’s also TypoBerlin (in Berlin next May) and ATypI (in Dublin next September).

> The person giving the critique is placing their aesthetic judgement on
> your work, and can, conscientiously or not, try to force your work into
> their narrow view of what is correct.

This is a very good point. And usually it’s done quite consciously! I remember when I showed an early version of Harrier to a Famous Type Designer, he wanted to wipe out everything that I had tried to make special in it. So it’s important to judiciously filter out certain things and keep what you really need (a tricky business for sure). Also, the best critic tries to get inside the subject’s head and help him get to where he wants to go.

The conference idea is solid. For one thing
you can get quick crits from experts there.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48413419@N00/4070517923
And TypeCon LA is going to rule.

hhp

I heartly agree with James and Nina. Do keep in mind that it is you –and only you– that will have to finish this design. You’ve made decisions that resulted in what you’ve come up with in your latest PDF. It shows that you yourself are capable of determining design directions that will eventually lead to a finished font the way you meant it to be. If you would like me to give you a *personal* type critique, do contact me[at]exljbris[dot]com.

On the one hand, I agree with James, Nina, and Jos. In my own Hypatia Sans there are a number of elements that reflect the distinctive influence of Robert Slimbach, most notably the lowercase “y.”

That being said, it was hard for me in the early days of being a journeyman type designer to figure out when an input from Rob reflected that there was something truly “wrong” with a letterform, or if it just meant that he would do it differently. Most often there would definitely be something wrong, but of course Rob’s suggestion would reflect how *he* would tackle it.

Mind you, in my case, the main thing I was learning was more harmonious curves and other optical subtleties, which really do have something of the absolute about them. IMO, anyway.

Cheers,

T

I think someone could make a killing offering an _affordable_ , but fairly intensive type design course. All the options I know of involve a lengthy time commitment and/or are very expensive. Going to Reading would require most people to leave their job and take out a loan. Typecamp seems to range from $2000 to $2400, plus travel costs. Typecon offers affordable instructional sessions, but the longest ones are just day long. I’m not doubting the value of these things, but for a lot of people, they’re just not an option.

I’m sure there are a lot of people (like me) who wold love to go to Reading, but don’t want to quit their jobs, and would love to spend a week learning some of the finer points of designing type without having to take out a loan.

Another route is to be on your own until you do something good enough to sell to a foundry. Then seek a foundry that will provide some guidance and input, or even hire you.

By “on your own” I mean reading books and really studying typefaces in FontLab and getting critiques and going to conferences and drawing, drawing, drawing—always in context of course.

Jonathan, the type design course I’ve taught (quite sporadically*) at ArtCenter is 14 evenings, 3 hours per session. It costs just over $700. But you have to be able to get yourself to Pasadena... I think the cost might be on the high side, but the duration is quite good; just a bit longer would be ideal. However, possibly tellingly, all my students so far have at most only dabbled in type design when they start the course.

* I need some minimum enrollment to make
it click each time. This economy doesn’t help...

James has done a better job with a similar situation - he can shed his own light on the issues of cost and duration.

hhp

Jonathan, watch the SVA summer workshop offerings. They’ve done one-week intensive workshops in the past, and I know that one is in the works for summer 2010.

Jonathan,

I doubt anyone is going to make a killing offering any kind of type design course.

The one I teach at SVA Continuing Ed is 12 weeks at 3 hours per session for $470. I don’t think anyone could teach a course for much less than that. Last semester I had 6 students, the bare minimum for keeping the course open. So far there is one person signed up for next semester.

The Typophile bubble may be at play here. Learning how to design type may be of great interest to the small group of folks who regularly read Typophile, but I don’t think it’s much of a draw to the general design population. They’re more interested in acquiring type then they are learning to create it.

If there is enough interest, I could teach a type design course under the auspices of the TDC. It could be a long weekend in NYC, Friday Saturday Sunday. Or perhaps a week long during the summer. I would have to run this by Carol Wahler and Charles Nix and the board, but I think they would go for it. What it would cost I cannot say, but it would probably be under $600. As a TDC member I paid around $470 for the Arabic Type Seminar which was 2 days, I’m sure it could be priced in this range.

Let me know who is interested and I’ll set the ball in motion.

James

If anyone is interested in the SVA type design course here is the registration info.

James, did you ever get anywhere with that guy
who was encouraging you to set up a remote course?

hhp

Interesting thread.

Pretty much all I’ve learned about type design has come from the forums here, plus a very few books and some online research. Still, I would like to learn more and have thought about the Reading course from time to time, both for its technical and social aspects. However, as Jonathan rightly points out above, I wouldn’t be in a position to stop working for a year. I guess it boils down to how serious you are about studying — I’m only a hobbyist and learning at my own pace suits me for now. I’m very grateful for the crit board here.

I hope to come along to some of 2010’s type conferences too :D

The technology for on-line instruction is very interesting, and I think I will be using it in the next few years. I just need some time to fully explore it.

The software I looked at allows for all the things that would go on in a live classroom. It’s free for two units, but needs to be licensed for more than that number.

I don’t know if it something I convince an institution to invest in, or if I go ahead and do it by myself and offer the courses independently of an institution. Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages.

The software I looked at allows for all the things that would go on in a live classroom. It’s free for two units, but needs to be licensed for more than that number.

I wonder if the free Moodle is the kind of thing you’re talking about.

I see that go to meeting, which they advertise a lot, is free for 30 days, for use with up to 15 people. You can share screens and talk on the phone in a conference call at the same time. So that would work.

You could also use skype at the same time, on another screen, and get visuals of each other.

There must be integrated software that can put you in one window and the shared screen in another, but I haven’t looked further.

Christian Schwartz often designs type with collaborators abroad, so I suspect he can tell you good solutions for doing this.

Actually, this would be great for more advanced technical stuff as well. Maybe FontLab would be interested in sponsoring something?

I’ve got a bit of experience in this area ... I create online courses for a living as an instructional designer at an Ontario community college.

There are three software tools we use (all have competitors). One is Elluminate, which allows real-time conferencing. The beauty of this is that it allows up to 24 students and a teacher (more with a higher licence) to meet and discuss things. As mentioned, the instructor can share software on his computer, or allow a student to share his software. This means the student can _do_ the thing that s/he is having trouble with, and the instructor can see what the problem is, usually instantly if it is a rookie mistake.

Theoretically all classes could be done with this software, but in fact I only recommend it for an initial meeting, and for remedial help. The reason is that the biggest benefit of online instruction is the ability to work to your own schedule, and having a fixed meeting time elliminates this. (The software does allow a session to be recorded, which means those who can’t make the session can watch the replay, and also this means that if a student is having trouble with a point that last year’s class also had trouble with, the teacher has them watch the tape of last years remedial, and only has another one if they still have trouble.)

The second key piece of software we use is something called Captivate. This allows you to build tutorials where your computer screen is recorded, along with your voice (and any annotations you want to add to the screen later). This software, or something similar, is what they use to do the Lynda.com tutorials, if you are familiar with those.

Finally, you need a learning management system. We use Angel, although WebCT, Blackboard, and Desire2Learn are commercial competitors, and Moodle and Sakai are the open source alternatives. These are course management tools and handle internal email, testing and marks, and holding the files. If you are working with a college or university, they should have one of these and will give you a course shell. If not, and you have strong software skills (can set up a server, for instance) then Moodle will work for you.

(Thanks to hrant for pointing this thread out to me ... I’ve been off this week ... it is rough working in education ... and not following the threads).

Thanks for sharing your expertise, Don. That is very informative.

Are any of these suitable for recording conference presentations also—with simultaneous windows for the presenter and slides?

Well, Elluminate does have a function so that a video of the presenter can be seen, generally a face shot. But the software does not seem to be designed for recording conference type presentations.

Camtasia could easily record a presentation screen, though, and another camera could record a presenter. Then it would be fairly trivial to marry the two together in Premiere or something.