hmm...

you are right, its very busy

i think you have serious problems with "P"and "S", those characters are very unstructured, and the up corner of both "As" is toheavy you should simplify it.

i like the idea in the "R" but needs a lot of work and explore some alternatives, for me is to keavy on top.

"SPA" against "TAN" is to narrow, and thats a problem you will have to solve with the structure a tild you you "S" and "P"

post here the future changes

CG (

you are right, its very busy

i think you have serious problems with "P"and "S", those characters are very unstructured, and the up corner of both "As" is toheavy you should simplify it.

i like the idea in the "R" but needs a lot of work and explore some alternatives, for me is to keavy on top.

"SPA" against "TAN" is to narrow, and thats a problem you will have to solve with the structure a tild you you "S" and "P"

post here the future changes

CG (

I suggest you ditch the helmet-crest... as Cristian said, it's a bit heavy on top. I think the alternate characters would be sufficient to create a uniquene look, and the very Roman typeface creates all the historical reference you would ever need.

Hey!
http://www.themicrofoundry.com/ss_trajic.html
:-)

hhp

"S" feels like it's leaning on the "P".

Hi guys,

Thanks for the feedback!
I have made some modifications and agree that the crest is throwing the balance out, but the client wants it in

Christian, thanks for your comments, I have tried to implement your suggestions on the A's and the SPA-TAN spacing. Its hard without getting into monospace.

Hrant, you showed me Trajic when I was looking for reference (Ancient style Greek/Roman thread) and it was exactly the concept I was going for! ;)

So here is the latest:


As I said, I had to keep the helmet/crest but hopefully its not as heavy.
Let me know what you think!

Thanks for all your help

Brennan

I like the last one. If you're going to go with a helmet crest, I think one that is "less solid" works best because it's less heavy, visually.

Oh. Sorry I forgot.

Yeah, the last one is cool. But do you have to make the "R" thicker? If you do, maybe you should consider starting from Friz Quadrata, Albertus, or Penumbra instead.

hhp

I agree about the last one too John, I might also see what some curved horizontals look like.

Your right Hrant, the "R" looke much nicer in the thin weight. I will check those faces you recommended. Thanks.

Now im off to fix these characters, especially the "S" (uggh!!). Will post the update.

Brennan

brennan

i like the way you solved the "A", i think that the R descender shouldn

Christian, you read my mind. have a look at the latest.


Thanks for the help everyone. I think im almost done (just a few points to shift around). Colour solutions are basic at the moment, trying for the rusty theme.

brennan

nice colours brennan

thanks Christian, do you think the spacing between the S-P is solved? I dont know if it can be any looser. Now all I have to do is tweak it for small sizes.

Bren

Yes brennan is practically solved, you should loose a little bit more just to see how it looks. The only think i realize now is that the eye of the

I think I got confused =)

I have modified the "P" & "R" (also the "S").



1. the "P" has been modified with a vertical stem.
2. the "P" is exactly the same as the "R"
3. the "R" is exactly the same as the "P", and the top of the "S" is modified.

I included the diagonal stem in the "R" in reference to a helmet noseplate (thats what made Spartan armour different, or so I was told. True? i dont know).
I dont think the diagonal on the "P" works that well because im getting that old problem with the S-P spacing.

bren

Brennan, i thing that option 2 is a valid alternative, the "P" has more personality to me. The problem you wrote about the spacing in can be easily solved.

you have a nice piece of logo now

CG (-j-)

I have been looking at that diagonal "P" and its growing on me... tweak time.

Thanks for all your help Cristian. (I just realised I was spelling your name incorrectly). Sorry ;)

Bren

The only comment I could add would be to suggest not using a modified 'P'. I think the P detracts from the main focal point--the 'R'. Using a complete P may also help with the spacing.

I second Darrel's suggestion to use a normal P. Think about it: the justification for the R is that the left side of the counter forms the nose-piece of the helmet. There is no such justification for repeating this shape in the P. It looks odd, and it draws attention away from the R.

Personally, I would try this with only the R having an abnormal shape (and the T, of course, where it is cut off by the crest of the helmet). I think it is a mistake to remove the crossbars of the A's: sure it looks Greek, but it looks like two uppercase lambdas, which confuses me into reading it as SPLRTLN. Actually, in the context of the two pseudo-lambdas, the cut-off T begins to look a lot like a gamma. And then do I read the P as Latin P or Greek rho? SRLRGLN, anyone?

Making Latin letters look like non-corresponding Greek letters is a bit naff: like reversing the letter R to make things look 'Russian'.

Thanks for the greek alphabet lesson John ;) point taken about the naff-ness. The client wanted this concept and I had to oblige to get paid.

The job hasn't gone to print yet so I will show them this version and see what they say. No doubt that they love the "authenticity" of the last logo, but lets see what happens.



Darrel, you were right about the detraction. I have based the new "P" on Trajan.

Not much I can do with the "T"(without cutting into the "R"), I guess it will have to look like a gamma symbol.

Thanks for the input guys.

Bren

I think that looks great...love the new 'rays'. The 'S' still seems a bit narrow (against the 'N'), but that's minor.

I think the T looks fine in this context with the full A's. I don't think anyone would mistake it for greek letterforms now.

(BTW...really liked the grey and gold colors up above.)

Naff is half the game. :-/
The new version is more serious, but less memorable.

hhp

I agree with Darrel about the S. It is a little narrow, and the curve is weak and the counters areas poorly balanced. Take the top terminal a little to the right, and then increase the curvature of the stroke so you can increase the size of the top counter area.

Top of the P looks a little heavy, but that might just be the screen rendering.

I disagree with Hrant. I think the new version is much more focused. The most recognizable part of the logo (and the part people will remember) is the helmet R.

I have similar problems with the S. To me, it looks like it

Brennan - This has come along very nicely. A few minor suggestions...

* spacing between AP and AN a few nudges tighter.
* look at the tail on the R. For some reason it looks fat where it connects to the bowl. (just a tad)


bj

This isn't essential, but you could drop the crossbar on the A a little lower. If the logo is likely to be reproduced quite small, or in poor printing conditions (newspaper ads?) this would probably be adviseable, to stop the top counter filling in.

Or make the bars chevrons, which would both open up the counters* and make it look more Ancient Greek!

* If you wanted to avoid clotting at smaller sizes, you'd need to worry about those helmet parts too... so maybe a separate version for small usage, with a more open "A" and fewer, larger, helmet segments?

hhp

Hi guys, thanks for all the input. Lots of suggetions there ;)



I have fixed the "S" (almost) and closed the "N". I think it looks much better.
Dropped the crossbar on the "A" and tightened the spacing between P-A, A-N.
Have also made small size comparisons.
1. same as large
2. reworked the helmet segments and added circles to compensate for the crossbar (not sure about that)
3. original with new "S" & "N"

Hrant, I didnt understand the "chevron" so I interpreted that with circles ;)
BJ, tried to make the tail of the "R" smaller, but it looked odd. Will try again.
Darrel/John, is the S-N width resolved?
Colin, how is the top counter of the "S" looking now?
Stephen, thanks ;)


Thanks again everyone ;)

Bren

A chevron here would be like a very shallow "V", instead of a straight horizontal bar.

Looking nice. The #2 works well small, although I don't like those dots.

hhp

This is looking good. The progress is great to see.

I am with Hrant. Ditch the dots.

The "S" and the "P" seem cramped to me compared to the rest. More space here might be good.

-smc

I think I

ahhh, the dots are ditched!



Colin, I have corrected the "S" as you suggested. thanks for pointing that out.
Hrant, I looked up chevrons on the web and got the military style. Here is a tryout but it needs a little working. thanks for the suggestion.


The client is in tow minds about the latest version and the last with no crossbar on the "A". I'm slowly talking them around ;)

There's something distracting about the chevrons. Either they're too thin and/or too curved.

Otherwise great!

hhp

brennan, i agree about the chevrons, persobally i think there are too many attractive pints in this logo, you should focus only in one, the Rhelmet.

for me the As whithout the horizontals works fine.

you shoud be carefull with little things now, the serif union betwen P and A should fuse like TAN, the upper part of the S should be more horizontal, the terminal of the S should be thicker in the bottom, for me it looks thicker on the upper terminal.

you should also define wich numbers of division in the helmet works better, if this logo will be used mainly in small applications it should be these one, the number 2 on your february 6 post

Cya
CG

brennan, i agree about the chevrons, persobally i think there are too many attractive pints in this logo, you should focus only in one, the Rhelmet.

for me the As whithout the horizontals works fine.

you shoud be carefull with little things now, the serif union betwen P and A should fuse like TAN, the upper part of the S should be more horizontal, the terminal of the S should be thicker in the bottom, for me it looks thicker on the upper terminal.

you should also define wich numbers of division in the helmet works better, if this logo will be used mainly in small applications it should be these one, the number 2 on your february 6 post



CG
Cya

There seems to be a relatively excessive amount of space between the A and N. This type of N could be the solution.

You could always have two versions (small sizes vs. normal sizes). I personally think this is the best idea. Of course, it

No dots and no bars looks best. It simplifies the logo. It has a lot to it already.

The helmet I would agree needs something like #2 treatment. If there are two many "divisions" it is going to be hard to keep it from plugging when printed smaller. And I am sure it is likely to print smaller than we see here.

I think that with what you have at this point less is going to be more. It looks good. The "S" does look better.

-smc

This is really lovely, Brennan. Don't screw with it too much.

Re: the dots. I agree, they're distracting / detracting.

Re: the crossbars. This works fine without them.
(Not that historical accuracy is paramount for your
project, but didn't crossbars come much later than the
Greeks?)

By the way, this has come a long way since your
original post. Very nice.