If you don’t want any person on Earth to see what you do, don’t post it on the internet. Not under a fake name, not on private forums, not at all.

Perhaps you should use gibberish words in place of the real thing, I think that's been done before.

Your profile identifies you as a freelance designer. When you refer to your boss, do you mean a client?
If you're a full-time employee of a company, you may have signed an intellectual property agreement when you were hired, making anything you create in the course of your 9-to-5 job effectively a work for hire. This may not be fair, but if you signed one of those, your best course of action is to tell your boss, Oops, my bad. It won't happen again.
If this is a logo you're designing for a freelance client, your contract with them may have some non-disclosure clause in it, in which case the my-bad approach is advisable.
In either case, point out that you acted in good faith with the goal of getting the best outcome for your client/employer, and with no intent whatsoever to harm or deceive them.
It's an unfortunate fact of life that businesses base their rules on worst-case scenarios, and therefore eliminate many valuable opportunities because they have a minuscule but real risk attached to them. You are in the awkward position of someone who might have to choose between being right and being employed.

> if I show the words next to the mark in a logo as a JPG, and ask that people refer to them as words, in general, not in specific

You could ask, but there would still be a chance of someone missing that, or it being posted several days after your request. Your best bet would be to do as mili says, and use fake text, which could even be something badly misspelled. (Although there are some type As around here would see that as a challenge to correct they spelling and defeating your purpose.) :)

> What can I say to my employer? To our legal dept

"Sorry" is the the best response I can think of. Tell the legal dept to hustle on registering the mark, now that it is out on the web.

Tracking.

What Messrs. Mojo and McCahill said.

Mojo, I've forgotten all about my account settings on here--i'll have to change that. i am employed as of a few weeks ago(non-freelance).

luckily, my boss applauded the effort, and i think is happy that we got a better product. but, it's his responsibility to tell me i did wrong.

so with that type of person, maybe i can convince him to allow me to use this site when i need criticism.

using alternate words sounds like a good idea, i'll do that. sounds like an challenge--explaining concepts and how they pertain to a logo that doesn't use the real wording--which should make the whole post, firstly, non-searchable, and secondly, obviously, the terminology will not be at risk.

the logos aren't in jeopardy, though, correct? if someone uses something of mine that i posted on here, i can prove that i had first use by virtue of the time-stamp.

> the logos aren’t in jeopardy, though, correct

Well, they can be stolen. Even though you have proof that you produced them first, it would be a major, expensive hassle to get the exclusive rights to them.

But I can't think of a way to ensure that they can be protected, and allow others in the group to comment on them.

I'm glad your boss is being sensible about this. The fact is, there is little chance that either the logo or the wording could have been stolen. What probably happened is that the lawyers were searching the net to see if the wording was unique. They typed it into Google, and surprise, they found your message.

But in reality, a person looking to steal a good slogan would not be able to do this, because they wouldn't have known what to search for. The image, which is even harder to search for, would be even harder to steal, based solely on its appearance here.

I've never heard of anyone "stealing" work from others on Typophile, though I can imagine plenty of people are inspired and perhaps borrow ideas seen here (This does not include any instances of ripped-off intellectual property in the greater type design community).

The majority of our users are honest and respectful people, but this is the world wide web. Anyone and everyone has access, so really, there is no guarantee that your work is safe from copy-cats. (I should also mention that legally, Typophile cannot be held responsible in this case).

Posting client work should always be done with great discretion and yes, Google loves Typophile, so chances are your posts here will get on the first page of any search result. There have been dozens of situations where a designer's client has contacted us to remove content - usually from the logo/identity critique section. We have also been contacted by legal departments on a few occasions. I've seen it get ugly and I've also seen people lose their jobs.

It has already been said here, but I recommend removing any proper names associated with the business. Remove it from the threads text and remove it from the file name.

In my book there is no way anyone can steal something that has been published and get away with it. If you described a wordmark or logo on a public forum that counts as publishing and is therefore protected by copyright. In case someone would steal the idea and trademark it (or any other way of registration), you can prove previous use and win litigation.
Especially with a lot of Typophiles as witnesses : )

What your legal dept. is afraid of is the cost of litigation and the possibility of getting some dumbass judge who doesn’t get it, resulting in years of drawn out and expensive court cases. But that’s the American Way, I guess (highest ratio of lawyers to general pop., right?)…

A historic event comes to mind, where a Brazilian trademark was established for the wordmark ‘Coke’ by an outsider (because the C-C people kinda forgot to get there first) and that guy had to be bought of for a couple of mil.

. . .
Bert Vanderveen BNO

I'd always assumed that Bert's argument stands...if I publish something publicly here it'd be hard for someone else to claim copyright, no?

I think it's unlikely that people will steal as long as you only post jpegs. I once posted a PDF of a logo in progress on another design forum, and someone directly stole a "k" from my totally-drawn-from-scratch logo. I know this only because he asked for a critique on his own studio logo a month or two later, and I recognized the very unique "k" I had drawn. Thankfully he was cool about it when I confronted him, and he changed his logo sufficiently. So: lesson learned, don't post PDFs.

I can't add anything to what others have suggested about how to approach your boss and the legal dep't, except to stress the fact that you never know who might be watching.

I once posted in another design forum about my unhappiness with the pay at a former job. I didn't mention the name of the firm I worked for; I didn't even say anything bad about them. I only mentioned that with a new baby, my wife and I needed more income than I was getting, and that the salary freeze we'd all been subject to was putting a financial strain on me. All I wanted was input from the people who knew me on the aforementioned forum, regarding whether they thought I was ready to make the move to self-employment or if I should stay put.

My former boss somehow found me on there, not sure how because she doesn't exactly hang out on design forums. She didn't fire me per se, but she did give me 2 hours notice with a couple months worth of severance. She said she was "going to tell people the decision is mutual, and is giving me the wings I needed to start my own studio" (read: I've realized you're not loyal to me anymore, and I can't stand the idea of having someone on staff who's looking to make a move). Moral of the story: just don't broadcast what goes on at work... that is unless it's been months since you've left and are now happily, gainfully self-employed and couldn't care less about whether said former employer is still stalking you or not.

;)

For logo concepts and branding in general, it's good to remember that copyright does not protect ideas, copyright only protects the artwork itself. Registering designs and trademarks can protect any aspect of the brand but that has to be done officially, and it takes time and money too. Best to keep confidential projects close to your chest, even if you did not sign any non-disclosure agreements.

With logos, it might help a little if one puts a TM on everything from the start. It's a good habit, even though the client should investigate registering it.

A point to note: While this site is a great resource, and we all like helping, and extra eyes are always a good thing... you shouldn't think of it as something you need in order to do the job you're being paid for. If confidentiality restraints mean that you unfortunately have to design something all by yourself without showing it to the internet, then do it, if you're a designer.

I've only posted one logo on Typophile (here, with the permission of the client), though I've commented on many. I have no experience with stolen work from Typophile, but if you're working with pre-copyright/pre-trademarked stuff you shouldn't put it on the web. Period. Sounds to me like you want the quality critique you get here (most of the time), but are running up against very real client constraints. I don't know if you're on sound legal ground or not, but I have to imagine it is more trouble than it's worth.

In the end, you have to bow to their needs or you risk creating a huge problem for both you and them. Again, I suggest you ask them to file the appropriate legal docs before you post here. Also you should notify them that you plan to expose the development of their logo/ tagline/ identity freely online. I bet many of them would not want the process work up online and would be angry that you did, legal issues aside. Additionally, you have the risk of someone seeing your work get critiqued on the web. If a potential client don't understand the design process, they may perceive the thread as showing that your work isn't good, or the client whose logo it is may believe that you didn't show them all the options.

I think Typophile is a great resource for logo input, but I don't think it's always the right choice, given its completely open nature.

> With logos, it might help a little if one puts a TM on everything from the start.

Can you do that? I thought that symbol was only for registered copyrights. I know you can put the (c) mark on anything, but as some else said, that is because copyright is automatic as soon as something is published (in many countries).

I'm glad to see this discussion is growing. It's very helpful to me (and many others I imagine) as to how to approach the business and all it's nuances.

As a designer I dont require outside critique, but when it comes to identity work, sometimes I get stuck--and other minds and opinions usually help. In all other areas, I dont post examples online. Yet, the nature of identity work does indeed make it a very touchy, very risky subject in this case.

If I have to do any other logos for this company I will be sure have a discussion as to the potential risks and benefits involved (thank you for enumerating them), and whether any of the prescribed treatments (such as using nonsense words) would make this a viable option.

TM--my company has used it before actually registering a phrase/motto, as an instance of intent to register.

As far as "can you," I'm not sure if that is the correct thing to do or not--it doesn't seem like that practice would be illegal....and hopefully would be a deterrent from stealing.

Don: The circled R is for registered trademarks. TM, in turn, is for unregistered trademarks, and is pretty much just an expression of intent to defend something as a trademark. Companies often stick it on common words and phrases as a deterrent, even when they know that there are low odds of such an ownership being upheld in court if it came to that.

I'll go with Cerulean and others here: I'd rather send a 'work in progress' logo I'm feeling stuck on with friends of mine on private emails, and for sure not be foolish enough to post it on the Internet - that actually seems insane, and I think you are lucky not to have been fired. Also, as it has been written elsewhere, it definitely makes you look like an incompetent designer who needs input from others in order to have a good logo. Well at least, that's what I would think of you if I was your boss and I came across a thread like this - and by the way, I hope you realize that your legal dept. and boss are very much probably still reading this thread.

In my opinion there is only ONE rule: do not post anything as long as the product is not out on the market. Even if it has been protected in terms of copyrights (name, visual, etc), it may destroy strategic efforts deployed to launch a brand or a concept, by showing it too early. What you did is a HUGE mistake, and you better try not to do it again, ever. I know it, because I did almost the same mistake some years ago, at a time I was not completely aware of the power of Internet; I posted a finished job on my portfolio, not even a forum, and it was not even accessible without knowing the proper address. Unfortunately, Google found it, and this product was not yet out on the market. The customer was spending $$ to prepare its launch. It is my only mistake of this kind so far, but it is one I learned a great deal from.

dr

I dont believe my employer would be upset to find me trying to learn more about the legalities of my business. I'm not trying to prove that what I did was right--that's defined by the employer, obviously. So I was wrong. I'm just trying to see all the angles--for MY future as a designer, regardless of where or for whom I'm working for--these are things I ought to know.

You guys are absolutely right that seeing the process in a forum, to a non designer, may make very well make us look incompetent.

Very interesting example about google finding a needle in a haystack! That's pretty scary.

> The circled R is for registered trademarks. TM, in turn, is for unregistered trademarks

And, for clarity, let me add to Cerulean's concise explanation that Trademark is a different category of intellectual property protection than Copyright. (And Trademark is indeed the more generally applicable one in the case of logos and wordmarks.)