Clearly the correct English word for abuse of your family pet goes beyond Typophile rules.

Apologies.

JS.

You are not alone. Aside from Gill I avoid all italic types as their inventor, Griffo, was a convicted murderer. I also avoid the work of contemporary type designers who support pot-smoking. Outside the world of type I never use the month name “July” due to the various crimes of Julius Cesar, or the word “Thursday” due to its association with the Norsk god of war.

Jonathan - you're the first I've heard of avoiding Gill's typefaces because of his personal behavior... Frankly I think there's enough evil in the world *right now* that I wouldn't be worrying about the morality of using a dead man's typeface.

I boycott museums because Picasso was a womanizer and Caravaggio a rapist, the Opera because Wagner was an anti-semite, modernism because it sprang from the minds of committed communists, religious cultists, vegetarians, and weirdos, and anything to do with Milton Glaser because he did a poster for that filthy hippie Bob Dylan.

There's humour here obviously. I'd still use the Anti-Nazi genius Paul Renner's work despite the fact that Martin Bormann decided "Futura" was perfect for their manifesto. Hardly Paul's fault after all. Several Nazi era German graphic designers were frowned upon by the party due to their refusal to take part in Third Reich matters - Otto Aicher (Rotis design genius) fell foul of his anti Nazi beliefs within Germany, finally being arrested after refusing to join the Hitler Youth...

The question is - where do you draw the line?

Using any English language that stems from Julius Cesar will bother few while obtaining design hints and tips from a self confessed child abuser from 80 years ago kind of changes the arguement a little.

As for the current trend in world wide nightmarish behaviour - agreed. I pay attention to that too. I am not suggesting we become some kind of moral arbitration service but i did wonder what was felt amongst yourselves so many thanks for the response.

There are many reasons not to use Gill. May I suggest this as a starting point for alternatives. But there are at least a few reasons to use it. In my view, serving your clients needs is the "higher ground" to be found here. If that means using Gill, probably should gut it out. If you have latitude to look elsewhere, do it. This world is full of lovely typefaces who's first connotation is something other than dog-shagging.

Many thanks Randy - sorry for the delay in replying but i was listening to Gary Glitter for the last 15 minutes. You're absolutely correct regarding clients of course - most of whom appear clueless within the world of television graphics (my current lengthy domain) Typograhica certainly go to it where font alternatives are concerned. It's good to be reminded that the internet provides considerably more than pornography once in a while.

Yours gratefully

Jonathan S.

People boycott all manner of products and businesses for their behavior. They may give some of their proceeds to organizations you disagree with. They may harm the environment more than you're willing to swallow. You may feel their EULA is totalitarian. And you may just plain not like them. To me this is all reasonable, and so is avoiding Gill Sans.

- - -

One other thought: if you discovered that your dead uncle was a sexual predator, and also that he had left you something useful (eg. money) when he died, you have a couple of options. 1) Refuse the money on moral grounds, 2) Decide he was a jerk, but his money is fine and take a trip to Cancún, or 3) Give some or all of the money to an organization that helps victims of sexual crimes. Number three is the only solution with a redemptive element, which to me makes it a good option.

Not sure what kind of "Family Show" this is, but using Gill might be akin to #3, even if you are the only one in Scotland who appreciates your redemptive intentions. Likely very few will recognize Gill Sans, know it's name, know the back story, and be offended. This is more about you.

You're right - obviously. Your mention of the EULA is also somewhat coincidental as a recent arguement with one of London's current favourite type designers proved. How dare i fix his overpriced typeface with FontLab rather than waiting another 2 months and paying even more through the nose for a font that didn't work on an Aston caption generator. In future i'll tell the "client" to choose another more operation friendly typeface...

Otto Aicher (Rotis design genius)

Usually known as Otl Aicher...

I love the man's type if not the man's behavior, so I'll go on using them.

But kudos to you for your decision. I can't fault that.

Excuse me but that is unreasonable. Eric Gill did good type design work, and his type design work must be judged by it's own merits. Does it makes any difference on Eric Gill past behavior boicoting his work?

Héctor

I would be sensitive to the use of Gill typefaces in something like a brochure for survivors of childhood sexual abuse, simply because if someone were to draw attention to Gill's abuse of his daughters it would cloud the purpose of the brochure and may cause distress to the clients. This isn't a matter of principle, but of sensitivity.

2 things - 1: Otl Aicher was known to several acquaintances as Otto AND Otl...& 2: I never stated that Eric Gill was a poor typographer...he did however have a few bad decisions where his daughters, sister and their family dog were concerned. I didn't say NEVER use his fonts - i said that I had decided to do that. It IS however, VERY important that designers are aware what this man did to his own family during their youth the next time they rave about him...

Jonathan: It IS however, VERY important that designers are aware what this man did to his own family during their youth the next time they rave about him.

Is it? If they're raving about Eric Gill the man, then I would agree that they need to take into account the known actions of the man's life, including his known sins. But presumably most designers who rave about Gill are talking about his design work, not how he lived. Thanks to Fiona MacCarthy's book, I doubt if there are very many people interested in Eric Gill who are not aware of his abuse of his children or his ‘experiment with dog’. Indeed, if you look through the Typophile archives, you'll see that someone brings these things up almost every time Gill the man is mentioned.

And if ‘what this man did to his own family during their youth’ is always to be acknowledged whenever his name is mentioned, then perhaps the coda needs also to be acknowledged: that he was contrite at least for what he did to his daughters and that his daughters forgave him.

And I wonder, what is the purpose of calling to mind Gill's sins? What do you do with these sins once you have acknowledged them? You still have to judge the work on its own merits. You don't look at the Perpetua lowercase a and think ‘Ah yes, there is the a of a sexual predator if ever I saw one!’ You have, as I suggested above, a duty to your client to be sensitive to the appropriateness of using Gill's typefaces for particular projects, just as you would have to be sensitive to the playing of Wagner's wedding march at a Jewish wedding. There are contexts within which some things are inappropriate because of their associations. But there are also many contexts in which the same associations are irrelevant.

Jonathan, perhaps you could start a "Ban Gill" web-site. It would put you on the fast track to internet celebrity. In five or six years you may even get interviewed by the BBC.

>...shocking revelations of Gills life.. The question is - where do you draw the line?

I draw the line when someone uses hearsay and innuendo as if there were established facts that can be substituted for a public record of a crime. But, we all have our own pencils.

Cheers!

"I draw the line when someone uses hearsay and innuendo as if there were established facts that can be substituted for a public record of a crime."

Unfortunately David - the information picked up by Fiona MacCarthy was in Gill's own volumous diaries. Hardly "hearsay and innuendo".

Anyway - all i stated & asked in the first place was as follows;

"I chose to avoid using Gill thereafter. Am i alone in this decision?"

Some of the response to that clearly didn't help the discussion.

Perhaps we can move along from this now.

Jonathan S.

>the information picked up by Fiona MacCarthy was in Gill’s own volumous diaries... Hardly “hearsay and innuendo”.

You've hit the exact legal definitions of both hearsay and innuendo.

You are presenting as fact in your own decision, that what Gill wrote was true, that what Ms. MacCarthy read was accurate to what he wrote, and then, what she said she read of what he wrote is fact?

>Am i alone in this decision?

There are so many possibilities for error in this string of past events from which you're building your facts, it would be inconceivable for me to base my typographic decisions on them.

>Perhaps we can move along from this now.

Yes, now that you've asked us all what we think of your slime on someone who can't defend themselves, we can gladly move on.

Cheers!

Very good David

One would have thought that you might already have studied this story far enough to know what is now commonly accepted as truth. My "slime" by the way is based upon the extreme disappointment of documentary evidence. I had absolutely no knowledge of Gill's extreme sexual behaviour prior to the BBC documentary or the MacCarthy biography.

Are you suggesting that he simply chose to make up these appalling stories to ruin his character after his passing? Having seen several of Gill's erotic drawings prior to the 1980's & early 90's exposure, one merely compared it to several other artists work. You are clearly assuming his own written words were false because he wasn't prosecuted for his crimes of hellish abuse. He married in 1920 & died in 1940 David so his family were probably still coming to terms with his faults and flaws considering their potential ages at this point.

Your criticism of what amounts to a fairly simple question says more about you than me. Considering the varied response to my first post i suspect i'm not entirely alone. I should point out that as a junior designer in the mid 1980's i couldn't see past Gill's type design and that even 20 years down the line when i see useage on a daily basis i find his work inspiring. Just not as much as i did back then.

In future i won't bother my arse seeking alternative opinion - but to explain clearly and finally;

If there had been ANY bullshit in MacCarthy's book or the BBC doc then The Eric Gill Society would have plenty to say about it. Even under English law MacCarthy would have been struggling to get away with work of this kind relating to a dead man if she was unable to provide the source. Which she did.

Thank you.

Unfortunately David - the information picked up by Fiona MacCarthy was in Gill’s own volumous diaries.

Have you ever come across an issue of Penthouse Forum or Heavy Metal? There’s no shortage of guys who write about or draw sick sexual acts that never occur.

Being that it's over 25 years since i've poured over Penthouse, i decided to check over some of the comments written since i read the biography in question (over a decade ago).

Not sure where you are James but here in the UK it's still illegal to suggest sex with your sister, your daughters OR your dog whether it's true or not.

This article appeared in The Guardian online back in 2006.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2006/jul/22/art.art

This also corrects my statement that Gill married in 1920 - it was 1904.

Apologies for this - it is years since i studied Gill.

Jonathan S.

Not sure where you are James but here in the UK it’s still illegal to suggest sex with your sister, your daughters OR your dog whether it’s true or not.

Fortunately I live in a country with a rather liberal constitution, so I can suggest that I rape bats, cook them, and hand them out on Halloween without much fear of persecution.

Bats? Now that i could deal with.

I'm not aware on any serious challenges to MacCarthy's exposé or even any denials.

One of Gill's granddaughters -- Juliana, the daughter of Petra Gill and Denis Tegetmeier -- lives in Vancouver. I met her husband a few years ago and she very kindly sent me a copy of the catalogue of beautiful works that David Jones made as gifts for her mother. Her husband alluded to Gill's sexual escapades when we spoke, with no suggestion that the stories were untrue or that the family sought to deny them.

There was a discussion about this on Typographica in 2002, and I think these comments I made about the art-historical significance of the revelations are still valid:

Fiona McCarthy had a legitimate reason to expose Gill's sexual biography, since it is part of the history of the communities (communes, really) which he formed, and also relates directly to the tension of the religious and the erotic in his art. There is an interesting unpublished essay by the English novelist and critic Alan Wall, which analyses some of Gill's art in light of his 'priapic adventurism'. It is unpleasant stuff, but it informs the work and necessarily shades interpretation.

Thank you for that comment John. Perhaps that'll inform certain others here.

Being attacked over this was particularly unfair when you consider my original point. Something that was never intended to add new scandal to an existing tale with factual backing.

That said, it IS now time that we leave this before someone else adds to a problem of some greater proportion.

That's it. I propose that all font designers be bonded to avoid this sort of problem in the future.

Interesting thread - besides anyone's personal ideas, it raises the question of the relationship between a man's life (or ideas) and his work. Take, just to remember a few examples, Martin Heidegger, Celine, Ezra Pound and Knut Hamnsun, who were all, in different ways, supporters of nazism and fascism - proudly and in a public form. We are talking of some of the greatest cultural personalities of the XX century, four men who had a very strong influence (to say the least) on philosophy, poetry, literature. Should we ban their ideas or their books because of this?

>Should we ban their ideas or their books because of this?
And it doesn't stop there; Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs (the drummer killed his mom), Mozart, ( or 'most tarts', slept with teenage girls), The Who (their lead guitarist is a Nazi), The Beatles, (were all adulterers) and Elvis (must have dome something illegal or Nixon wouldn't have given him an FBI badge); they should all make you turn off the radio?

>Her husband alluded to Gill’s sexual escapades when we spoke, with no suggestion that the stories were untrue or that the family sought to deny them.
By "the stories", John, do you mean the stories of alleged abuse, or the usually run-of-the-mill man talk?

>so his family were probably still coming to terms with his faults and flaws
"Were probably still... "? Why are you persisting?

>Bats? Now that i could deal with.
I think that says more about you than about me. ;)

>here in the UK it’s still illegal to suggest sex with your sister, your daughters OR your dog whether it’s true...
If that is true of a private diary, (and you assume he wanted people to read it), no wonder most of the English have left.

Cheers!

Hopefully David this draws a close to a conversation that lost its way far too quickly.

As part explanation to yourself and NOT to the fool who's raping bats in his spare time -

The last job prior to the family show I was working on was in fact for a charity completely geared towards victims of child abuse. I did it for free from the word go. As did the producers and directors. These are not fun to work on at all and given the spiraling increase in child abuse cases and the a fact that when working on television news (something i did for 14 years as graphic operator/designer) you are hit with facts and information that simply cannot be broadcast. Appalling tales of cruelty and misery. I point blank refuse to accept the behaviour of paedophile trash irrespective of their abilities elsewhere. That comment applies across the board and is NOT aimed at Eric Gill.

On the relation of a person's sins and failings to their work, I think the answers are complicated, and have to be taken on a case by case, and even work by work basis. In the case of Gill, I think his type work is fine, honest work, and not much affected by his reprehensible side.

Gill's figural art is a different story. Though otherwise excellent I find it a bit repellent, and think it is influenced by his warped personality.

Others where the personal shortcoming influence the work include Heidegger, where his philosophy gives permission to fanaticism, in his case Nazism. Also for me it includes Woody Allen, who has now I think done at least three movies where people get away with murder, and it is condoned by the viewpoint of the movie.

"Bat Raper" would be an interesting name for a font.

In the case of Gill, I think his type work is fine, honest work, and not much affected by his reprehensible side.

Do you mean "not much," or "not at all"? And if the former, what might the implied "little bit" be?

“Bat Raper” would be an interesting name for a font.

Would that be "Bat Raper" Bold - Normal or Abnormal?

I'd check over at Dafont now because the name'll have
been used already along with;

"I stole this from Fontworks via ISOHUNT and altered it's name only" Ultra...

I remember John Hudson writing on typophile that Gill said he liked to shape his "droopy" D's that way because they reminded him of the shape of a girl's bottom. But I regard that as pretty normal eccentricity. His figural stuff can be creepy.

David: By “the stories”, John, do you mean the stories of alleged abuse, or the usually run-of-the-mill man talk?

I mean the revelations in the MacCarthy book, which I'm not inclined to catalogue or attempt to calssify in terms of ‘alleged abuse’ vs. ‘man talk’. The less I have to think about them, the better. So far as I am aware, no one in the family has ever denied any of the revelations.

That's my last post on this topic.

> I point blank refuse to accept the behaviour of paedophile trash irrespective of their abilities elsewhere.

You can do and say anything you want about the convicted.
I agree that baby-bat-raping type designers should be avoided.
I wonder what effect the war had on Gill.

Cheers!

BTW we've been here before.

I wonder what effect the war had on Gill.

Gill was a conscientious objector. Though I suspect pacifists as a group are no more likely to commit sex crimes than their more belligerent brethren.

>Gill was a conscientious objector.
Gill is claimed to have believed a just war to be possible and was neither pacifist or CO by all accounts I am aware of.

Cheers!

Gill . . . was neither pacifist or CO

My mistake, I was thinking of Stanley Morison. If you've seen one eccentric early 20th-Century British book-arts celebrity who converted to Catholicism, you've seen them all.

As a skilled mason, it is unlikely that Gill joined up during the 1st World War. Engineers and technically skilled workers regularly avoided the army as they were so important to the home war effort. Conscription did not take place in Great Britain until later in 1916 'til the end of the "Great War" in 1918/19. Conscientious objector or not, his abilities as an artisan would be too important to send him off to the Somme where he would have probably died within 24 hours along with 60,000 others on day one. Conscientious objectors were treated terribly in the UK and potentially ended up in jail during both wars for refusal to fight. If one became an objector AFTER joining up then court martial and death sentence were inevitable for many young men. As for the facts of Gill, I don't have either of the biographies to hand to check on this but i dare say one of you does.

"In 1913 he became a convert to Roman Catholicism and was commissioned to make the Stations of the Cross at Westminster Cathedral, fourteen relief carvings which he carried out in 1914-18"

Commissioned clergy work would keep anyone out of the war whether they wanted to fight or not. In this case, Eric Gill was a lucky man. Years later of course these were the very carvings Catholic mothers demanded removal of following the MacCarthy biography. They remain there today.

Hi Jonathan

(IMHO the desecration and removal of many of Jacob Epstein's public sculptures in England far outweighs any controversy about Eric Gill's work in this field).

I seem to remember that someone (was it Barry Deck?) in the early '90s created a typeface called Canicopolous Script in response to the information in Fiona McCarthy's book – which at least was a creative response to the issue.

Saying 'I won't use his typefaces' – when a customised Gill Sans Bold is the corporate typeface of the BBC – is akin to cutting off your nose to spite your face, assuming you plan to continue working in broadcast graphics in the UK.

The title of your post is a misnomer; Gill may have been perfectly indecent in his personal life, but his contribution to 'modern day type usage' is indisputable, particularly in his serif designs and his writing.

There are better arguments for shunning Gill Sans here in my article – which is just about the typography, not about the man.

I try to avoid anything by American designers because of the crimes by George W. Bush

Having already worked in broadcast TV here in the UK for nearly 18 years including various commissioned jobs for the BBC & BBC Alba i suspect i'm not planning departure anytime soon.

As for me cutting ANY part of myself off to spite matters; i'll be sticking to the decision to avoid any Gill typefaces unless they're completely necessary. Note the point i made about working for child abuse charity ads - you DON'T use Gill for those anymore do you?

Jacob Epstein wasn't hiding or flashing himself in some small English village throughout his condemned career. He sadly fell into disrepute due to the age and areas he worked within and because he was Jewish during a period of real anti-semitism here in the UK. Slightly at odds with the arguements relating
to Eric Gill.

All of that aside i appreciate the tone and intelligence of your response and in particular the link to your article which says alot about Johnston's contribution to a font best known as Gill's.

Many thanks.

I have to admit I completely understand Jonathan not wanting to use Gill’s typefaces after finding out that he took ‘man’s best friend’ a bit too literally. The singer of one of France’s best-known rock groups, Noir Désir, drunkenly beat his girlfriend to death a few years ago and I haven’t really wanted to listen to their music since.

"Des Visages des Figures" (musically speaking) faded slightly at this end too.

it’s over 25 years since i’ve poured over Penthouse

Speaking of deviance, could you identify the fluid that you poured over Penthouse? Or is "pore" (to examine closely) one of those words that has a u in the UK but not in the US?

A multitude of things. Initially alarm and panic - rapidly followed by hours of study...

When you're sat in front of 3 screens at once - 2 laptops and one tower, running Cinema 4D Office/Firefox and Ilustrator/Photoshop through 17 hours that were meant to be a holiday - well anything's possible. Even crude humour.

Apologies for the "poured/pore" one Victor.

I used Gill Sans today for the first time in ages because of this post.

Jonathan, your obsession with the sex life of Eric Gill could be construed as somewhat prurient.

You should be careful your clients don't find out about this personality trait of yours, or they may decide that doing business with you exceeds the bounds of decency.

I'd check what i actually wrote and responded with before making such statements like that.

I learned yesterday that the Obama 08 campaign changed Gill Sans and Perpetua for Gotham and Requiem for the same reasons mentioned by »New Order«. Well, not exactly the same reasons, but because somebody might use Gill’s story to discredit the presidential candidate.

>Hopefully David this draws a close to a conversation that lost its way far too quickly...

Apparently not.

>i’ll be sticking to the decision to avoid any Gill typefaces unless they’re completely necessary...

So you will compromise your principles to support parental abuse by their children?

>When you’re sat in front of 3 screens at once... well anything’s possible.

You think you have tough work!? LOL.
I wonder what effect the war had on Gill.
You might have to think hard, so be careful.

Cheers!

It it means anything, after taking my history class, one of my students now refers to Gill as

Puppyfuck Sans

I think if it's just labeled like that on the font menu, this may solve a lot of moral dilemmas when picking type.

Just sayin.

steve mehallo
mehallo.com tinyurl.com/mehallofonts

On the ethical issue, I do think it makes a difference whether the author of a work is dead. If alive and reprehensible, then it it makes sense to boycott his or her work. If dead, especially long dead, I don't think there is the same imperative.

I’d check what i actually wrote and responded with before making such statements like that.

I did, but I'm afraid you missed the irony.
Let me spell it out:
You started this thread, and admitted, "I rapidly recalled the somewhat shocking revelations..."
Don't you think that kinky tabloid muck-raking is a mite unprofessional?
You're reworking another's design, and casting aspersions on his/her type choice with the Old Puppyfucker gambit.
And you have the nerve to talk about decency?
So my advice is, don't raise this issue with your client as it might reflect poorly on you.
There are other reasons not to use Gill Sans, if you want to rationalize your type preference.

David Bowie once said that he believed in Fascism and that Adolf Hitler was the first Rock star.
Eric Clapton said they should send all black people away from UK before it becomes a black colony.
Rob Lowe had trouble with justice for having (videotaped) sex with a 16 year old.
Woody Allen left his wife in order to live with their adopted daughter.
Roman Polanski... Well you know the story (who doesn't).
John Wayne was one of the most black people hater ever.
Mel Gibson said all the wars in the world had to be blamed on jewish people.
Salvador Dali was a passionate admirer of Fascism.
Herge (the creator of Tintin) was a little too close to the nazis during the war.
etc etc etc.

Should we stop listening to their records, admiring their paintings, watching their movies, reading their books? Or should we judge their works for what they are, and not for who their authors were?

You tell me.

dr

Men, relax!

David R - strange that you include Mel Gibson, his crimes are not paired with artistic offerings!

1985: I do like Mel Gibson the actor and director, but you have the right not to.

In fact, I do like all the people I mentionned in my post. And I like a lot Eric Gill's typefaces and engravings (some of which I own). I recently published a book in France about typography, one chapter is dedicated to Gill Sans and contains a biography of Gill, in which I state very clearly his sexual misconduct. Though, I also say that his typefaces are very beautiful.

dr

David R, I don't think we should say the person's conduct is always irrelevant, or always relevant.

As I said, whether the person is dead or living makes a difference, and also the extent to which his or her art is tainted by their reprehensible conduct.

Also some of your 'facts' are not correct. Woody Allen--whose movies I refuse to see--was never married to Mia Farrow. John Wayne, whom I never liked as an actor, was not the "biggest black people hater ever." In a Playboy interview of 1971 he made some stupid and wrong comments expressing annoyance with black activists, but they are hardly the stuff of virulent racism.

Woody Allen—whose movies I refuse to see ... because he constantly uses Windsor Elongated for his titles, I suppose.

New Order, are you aware how many negative connotations are thrown up by your own account name?
I assume you are referring to the band?

New Order, Wikipedia:

Rob Gretton, the band's manager for over twenty years, is credited for having found the name "New Order" in an article in The Guardian entitled "The People's New Order of Kampuchea".[citation needed] The band adopted this name, despite its previous use for ex-Stooge Ron Asheton's band The New Order. As the term "New Order" was featured in Hitler's Mein Kampf as "the new order of the Third Reich" and the name Joy Division originated from the prostitution wing of a Nazi concentration camp mentioned in the 1955 novel The House of Dolls, critics attempted to cite fascist undertones.

PS William, you avoid Woody but can recall a Playboy article from 1971!

(Come on Dez, get involved!)

>can recall a Playboy article from 1971!

That's my know-it-all friend Mr. Google. All the stuff on the internet attacking John Wayne refer to it, and some quote it.

You use Google?! Are you aware of the smut they index?

New Order as in the band. Yes. Who I've followed - literally - for 25 years. Including a Stateside tour in 1989 where i saw kids of all colours enjoy themselves. The group did left wing miners strike & AIDS benefits during the 80's. Zero level of fascism i can assure you. As for Wikipedia. I'd trust that level of information as far as i could throw it. The accusation of the bands "fascist" leanings stemmed from a UK music journalist called Steven Wells a very long time ago..incorrectly. Rob Gretton spotted the newspaper headline AFTER Bernard Sumner had proposed the bands new name. Right wing assholes were thrown out of several Joy Division concerts in "79 & '80. No citation needed.

As for "kinky tabloid muck-raking". I didn't quote Gill's own words on the subject but i'm sure i could if i genuinely wanted to. They are available.

Thanks for addressing my question.

I'm a New Order and Joy Division fan too so you needn't convince me.
(Don't tell me I'm too young!)

My point was not that either band was/is fascist but that they were comfortable enough to use names that were dubious in origin.
You are comfortable with that too it seems, so why not use Gill?

Wikipedia pulls through on the basics!

So to have artistic merit one has to fall short of a saint?

Please, can the last one out turn off the light?

1985 - i'm delighted to hear that you're a New Order/Joy Division fan. I kind of assumed there was something there based on your post relating to my fad choice of monicker. Truth is that the majority of my early interest in design came from Factory Records. There were multiple blacks and jews involved in Factory so any notion that Joy division or New Order had right wing thoughts was unlikely. Having said that - Bernard Sumner's own cover illustration for Joy Division's first single "An Ideal For Living" was a poor choice by any standards. If i had ever thought they were a set of fascist idiots then i wouldn't have gone to see them 50+ times since '84.

I'm sure Wikipedia DOES pull through now and again.

Jonathan, to someone of my age and background, the ‘New Order’ nickname with its Nazi connotations is more offensive than the facts of Gill's private life. What some people here are pointing out is that while you show sensitivity about the use of Gill, your choice of a ‘in your face’ moniker does not show same. It is incongruous and invites a suspicion that you might just want to stir the pot.

New Order is the name of a band. Eric Gill was a self professed, incestuous child abuser. A wee bit of a difference that one. As for your suggestion that i'm some form of troll - forget it. If however, the name i have lifted from that band offends anyone here i shall happily change it.

The keystone of religious truths is that they are revealed, rather than observed (empirical), or tautologous (philosophical). Since they are revealed, they brook no counterargument. I'd say that's about where you seem to be; allowing no counterargument essentially ends a discussion.

@New Order

Remarkable that you have seen Joy Division (and or New Order) perform that many times. I might be jealous, but then, perhaps it is fitting enough not to have seen them and felt connected anyway. Don't change your name, balance the argument by using Gill!

No, I jest, I respect your decision. I was just trying to point out that you will always be drawn into some kind of scandal by the very things that surround you, your shoes, your car, etc.

PS You can't troll your own post I don't think, it breaks the internet.

@Paragraph

Re the name New Order:
The difference between connotation and denotation.
It's about the free-play of signs and signifiers!
(Isn't that what Steve Coogan shouts?)

I wish i'd seen Joy Division - only New Order

"...signs & signifiers..."

Coogan to Rob Brydon playing an ill advised Sounds/NME journalist (of whom there were plenty)

If the use of the name bothers anyone i'll sort it.

OK then, don't use Gill Sans, don't buy Benetton clothes, don't watch BBC, don't buy Penguin books, don't use the subway when you go to London, honestly, who cares :-)

As of John Wayne, yes, I am talking about the Playboy Interview. Here is the exact extract I was referring to:

"I believe in white supremacy until blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. I don't believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people.... The academic community has developed certain tests that determine whether the blacks are sufficiently equipped scholastically.... I don't feel guilty about the fact that five or ten generations ago these people were slaves. Now I'm not condoning slavery. It's just a fact of life, like the kid who gets infantile paralysis and can't play football like the rest of us."

You might want to call that "stupid and wrong comments". It's up to you. Let's say, I disagree. These words could very well come as well from the mouth of any educated neo-nazi or member of the KKK. Still, I like to watch movies with the Dude. And I also enjoy watching movies with Charlton Heston. And so on. And, oh yes, Woody Allen wasn't married to Mia Farrow, but he lived with her for 12 years - I guess that counts.

dr

Why not use the Tube?

Oh by the way, check this one, you'll love it:

http://www.myfonts.com/newsletters/cc/20090401.html

dr

Mehallo:

I'm curious about your statement "If [I corrected this] it means anything, after taking my history class, one of my students now refers to Gill as Puppyfuck Sans."

How much "pushing" did you do that might have lead students to discover these aspects of Gill's life? Did you assign the McCarthy bio and let it go at that? Or did you mention that there may be some seamy parts?

powers

David R.:

I'm not against using Gill's typefaces. He's long dead, and the typefaces are outstanding and historically important. For must uses, I wouldn't see any ethical problem, though for some it might be insensitive.

As I said, for me, it's a difficult issue, and sometimes I would boycott an artist's work on those grounds, and other times not.

Do you think that it is a simple issue: the creator's morals are always irrelevant to how we should treat his or her work?

It is a difficult issue. For the vast majority of the audience, no one will care who Gill was or what he did, they only really consider the typeface. At the same time, if a company spent a great deal of money on a new identity that included one of his faces, only to find out later more about him, I could potentially see an issue arising. So, for folks who don't want to have the possibility of that association or feel other typefaces are more appropriate / stronger choices, there are plenty of others available and well done alternatives (that has been discussed elsewhere on typophile) that can be used instead.

Also, @New Order: "As a skilled mason, it is unlikely that Gill joined up during the 1st World War. Engineers and technically skilled workers regularly avoided the army as they were so important to the home war effort."

I just finished the chapter on Gill in The Secret History of Type and he did indeed end up in the army (he had to have his beloved beard shaved off) but he wasn't sent to war because it ended while he was still in boot camp, so he lost his symbol of masculinity for nothing.

Well, I still consider that avoiding using a typeface because its creator was a wacko is stupid. This being said, if true, I totally understand that Obama's advisors decided not to use Gill Sans because of the potential risk of being attacked on theses issues by the republican: this is USA. Enough said.

dr

"if true, I totally understand that Obama’s advisors decided not to use Gill Sans because of the potential risk of being attacked on theses issues by the republican"
I assume that it is true; at least that's how Sol Sender, the creator of Obama's campaign logo, told the story at TYPO Berlin. I was rather surprised that he was so frank about this being the reason; one could certainly have made a quite convincing point for the replacement of Gill Sans with Gotham via the English<>American heritage/culture argument, without having to discuss sexual practices involving dogs.

one could certainly have made a quite convincing point for the replacement of Gill Sans with Gotham via the English<>American heritage/culture argument, without having to discuss sexual practices involving dogs.

Yeah, but what about the personal lives of H&J... We don’t have enough info regarding Jonathan and Tobias to compute a moral judgement. And is living in NYC a plus or a minus (it must be the latter for designers living in the Midwest, right?)?

I am SO confused about this that the only typeface I dare to use now is the one based on the handwriting of my youngest kid, whose morals are beyond questioning of course (... or DID he cheat in kindergarten as his mother told me when the alimony was outstanding...?).

. . .
Bert Vanderveen BNO

>this is USA. Enough said.

Oh those Americans! The French are so much better. No right wing there, and not an ounce of prejudice.

And the Americans were so stupid to overwhelmingly elect Obama, what a bunch of cretins.

Regarding Gill's involvement or lack thereof in WWI. "Bootcamp" for a British "Tommy" waa a very short experience before heading to war so assuming Gill's work on Stations of the Cross at Westminster ended in 1918 as documented with the war itself ending on the 11th of November 1918 (at 11a.m. that morning) he must have arrived in the army very late that year to have missed the war entirely. Was he a conscript or a volunteer? As for "I wonder what effect the war had on Gill." - Answer: he had a shave.

I'm sure the shave was very traumatic for him. And wearing pants too. Poor guy. Enduring so much.

Apologies.

I hadn't considered the "pants" issue at all. Must have been a nightmare.

Thank you Mr Bell.

I bet this really irks you too...

"Yeah, but what about the personal lives of H&J... We don’t have enough info regarding Jonathan and Tobias to compute a moral judgement" > very well put indeed.

William: I lived 10 years in NYC. It's still my favorite city in the world, and I am going there at least once a year. I am taking care of the american film festival of Deauville since 10 years. most of my best friends and memories are american. as of france, I left it a long time ago, I lived in Tokyo and now in Istanbul, since 5 years. I despise Sarkozy, and most of the french politicians altogether, as well as their pathetically poor social handling. the american overwhelmingly elected Obama, yes... after electing GWB *twice*, in case you forgot. in USA, republican (and democrat, actually) are very fond of digging some really old dirty crap in order to bury a candidate for presidency, and this is a fact you can't ignore as well.

don't come and judge me on 3 sentences in a forum, you don't know me, and I guess you will never do.

dr

Gill was, to say the least, a conflicted man, as are we all.

On the positive side are his typeface designs, and, so far unmentioned here, the reforms embodied by Vatican II; reforms that were in large part shaped by Gill's writings (though advocates of the Tridentine mass would place this on the negative side).

So, to use Gill's faces or not? It depends upon the text and the format only, not on Gill's life and acts. Should we eschew the use of all typefaces, serif and sans, used by the Nazis because of the enormity of their crimes?

>don’t come and judge me

I was judging not you, but what you wrote. You dismissed a whole people with contempt. Yes, the US reelected George W. Bush--whether they elected him the first time is debatable--and they also elected Barak Obama. To focus only on one side is to miss the complexity and reality of America for the sake of a cheap shot.

What I object to in both your and Jonathan S's comments on Gill is that they are simplistic on an issue that is complex and serious. And the issue here is not simple "whackiness", but systematically vicious and harmful actions, and bad moral character.

I think that if we are to be responsible moral actors, we should not be be indifferent to the morals of those producing and selling us products. Now the world is full of villains and heroes, and both are involved in producing many products. So most of the time we don't know enough to make any judgment, and even if we did know enough we probably couldn't resolve the issue clearly. The many industrial products produced in bad labor conditions in poor countries is one example of such a very entangled issue. But when it comes to cultural products that are mainly the creation of one person, we sometimes do know more. And I think we have a responsibility to act on that knowledge.

The difficult case is when the artist is great, and the sin is also great. This is the case with Gill, and also the most widely discussed example, that of Richard Wagner. Here there is no doubt that he was a virulent anti-Semite who influenced Hitler and Nazism. But it is also true that he was an artist of great talent. How much his evil side spoils his artistic creations continues to be hotly debated. Daniel Berenboim caused a row in Israel when he broke the 50 year informal boycott of Wagner's music.

The complexity of the issue is shown by the fact that even Barenboim, who has championed performing Wagner's works, does not think it appropriate to perform them in every venue and occasion.

I don't pretended to have any simple guidelines on this, but I think the idea that in some situations a work might be appropriate, and others not is a pretty good concept. And I do think Gotham was a lot better choice for Obama's campaign than Gill, for more than one reason, including both the all-American look of Gotham and Gill's personal failings.

Gotham was the better choice whatever is thought of Gill. It is more reflective of our time, an American designed face and a damn good one. I also feel it works better as a system with weights that fit better as a family.
The Republican ooze slingers (who swim with the feces) would surely have attacked Obama using the "Gill card". Mainstream Republicans would have not been so tasteless though.

ChrisL

Chris, you just missed a chance to use æ :)

I won't go deeper into the fuss, but I wanted to say that I also think Gotham is a perfect choice for Obama.

William, when you say "I wasn't judging you", I guess you were referring to "the french are so much better"? That was classy.

Oh and before I forget, the french magazine "Le Monde Diplomatique" is using Joanna as its main type, both for titles and text, and it's gorgeous. This typeface is really beautiful.

dr

Will:

I've actually set up my history class to be two-fold: I present the work and then present as much as I can dig up about the person, humanizing what they've done as best I can.

I typically present the Gill info - as I do Griffo, and even the legend of Gutenberg being shut out of his shop - as 'here's what I know, you draw your own conclusions.' (and frankly, I think Gutenberg should be played by Donald Sutherland in the movie - so that is bias on my part)

I also like to say the past is the past, history is the written account of it. And by that, there's no way to really know what REALLY happened. All we have is what's been written down. Good or bad, true or not.

Gill is interesting because I showcase his work, and then after, I talk about what is known about him as a person; mentioning his dedication to his religion and various other activities; it's all designed to let the students draw their own conclusions.

Some love his types, some are appalled, and some actually think it's cool there's a real freak out there. (!)

But one can't forget, behind every single typeface or design piece there is a person (or persons) - flawed or otherwise - that have done something that resonates with us today.

Which is why this page is so full of posts.

steve mehallo
tinyurl.com/mehallofonts
mehallo.com

"you just missed a chance to use æ :)"

Sorry, Jan,

I guess I was trying to be serious for a change:-)

ChrisL

No wœrries.

One more snarky comment:

Introducing: Eric Gill, the wine http://mehallo.com/blog/archives/620

steve mehallo
http://tinyurl.com/mehallofonts
http://mehallo.com/blog

Isn’t the “pathetic stretch[ing]” a more pressing issue?

—
Joe Clark
http://joeclark.org/

If you feel strongly please stop studying art history or the history of design. It's full of deviates.

For that matter you might want to stop posting on the internet. You just never know…

pbc

i have no puppy, but some people here have said
that they will refuse to use my software because
i do not use capital letters. i live with the pain...

-bowerbird

hi i know there hasnt been posts on this in quite a while, but i have to do a paper on gill as part of my contempary art discourse module in college... just wondering would anyone recommend any sites/books on gill that would contain information of his diaries?

thanks, leisha

See the first post.

Long before I heard of Eric Gill's crimes, while I liked Perpetua, I disliked Gill Sans, as I've noted. But I just realized that I didn't always like Gill Sans. I only disliked one particular way in which I often saw it used - and when used in that fashion, I found it ugly, and excessively and obtrusively "British", and so I took note of the typeface in that connection.

It was when it was used for text in ALL CAPS. And few typefaces survive that treatment well in any case.

@John Hudson:
And I wonder, what is the purpose of calling to mind Gill's sins? What do you do with these sins once you have acknowledged them? You still have to judge the work on its own merits.

To begin to answer that question, first one has to address just how seriously his crimes are to be regarded.

In my opinion, because sexual assault often causes lifelong psychological devastation to its victims, I believe it should be regarded as a form of torture, or a crime against humanity.

The merits of Gill Sans or Perpetua, such as they are, are not so absolutely stellar that I think anyone would be using them if they were Eichmann Sans or Hitler Roman.

Hitler was a failed architect, and he did produce a few paintings, after all, so why couldn't he have been a type designer?

So this isn't a question of digging around in dirty laundry, or not using a typeface because its designer ran out on some unpaid debts, or was once accused of murder under ambiguous circumstances. At least, it isn't if one agrees that sexual assault is a crime we should take very seriously indeed.

@William Berkson:
Yes, the US reelected George W. Bush--whether they elected him the first time is debatable--and they also elected Barak Obama. To focus only on one side is to miss the complexity and reality of America for the sake of a cheap shot.

I take it you are replying to someone who slammed Americans for electing G. W. Bush.

I would have my own reasons for not approving such a comment. Even so, it's hard for me to give the American people full credit for voting in Barack H. Obama.

Not because I don't like the American people. Just because of two facts.

Number 1: The stock market crashes. News reports note the possibility that this could lead to an economic catastrophe on the order of the Great Depression. And, looking at Iceland, Greece, and Portugal, it doesn't seem they were far wrong.

What did John McCain do?

He told the American people that the economy was "fundamentally sound"... basically, channeling Herbert Hoover. He also obstructed the efforts of his President, G. W. Bush, to quickly inject money into the economy to prevent a disaster until his home state got some extra gravy.

Number 2: Exit polls and other data after the election showed that a majority of America's white and non-Hispanic voters voted for McCain.

If I'm going to praise or damn the American people, it is likely to be white Americans I would be talking about - because the Americans belonging to minority groups will often see things differently than the typical ordinary American. They live in a different situation, with different challenges.

If I were so inclined, therefore, to praise Americans for their open-mindedness in electing Obama President... I'd have a problem, given that the Americans I'd be talking about actually mostly voted for the other fellow - after he just about (despite having a strong platform on the important issue of fighting terrorism) did the next best thing to conceding the election!

Because while hunting down al-Qaeda is an important issue (and Obama didn't act precipitately and pull the U.S. out of Iraq in such a way as to cause chaos and allow the terrorist forces to take control there, as might have been feared during the election campaign) a much more important and immediate issue to Americans, just like everyone else, is "Will I lose my job"?

McCain throws the election, and white Americans would still have voted him in, just by a thin margin?

I think Americans are nice people, but they're not really ready yet for a black President. Obama apparently got elected because of a "perfect storm", and no matter how great a job he does, I doubt if he will get a second term. Unless the Republicans pick a total idiot to run against him.

Unfortunately, it looks like that's exactly what they're planning to do... and she might still win.

I guess this really is the Internet.

I know that noting that the American people may not deserve "full credit" for electing Obama is off-topic. I don't want to derail the thread, but I did think that something was said that needed a reply.

The only offtopic thing worth reading in this thread:

"Bat Raper" would be an interesting name for a font.

In other news, I boycott Chick-Fil-A, and every day I drive by wishing I could have some. They've lost at least 500 bucks from me already.

Necroposting in an Erik Gill thread is best summed up by this GWAR video.

> but I did think that something was said that needed a reply.

22 months later? Really?

I just noticed the topic came up in a new thread. The posts were there. I didn't check the dates on them, I just read what was in the posts.