Pointless: 3.9 mm with 4.2 mm leading :)

Well you've got my attention. In what context did this conversation take place?

Why are you posting this to typophile? You could have spent the time looking for a better job, or redesigning the layout using search and replace.

You could have spent the time looking for a better job…

Trust me, these days that’s a pretty pointless waste of time.

But FWIW, keeping a few stock grids around and styling every single level of a document makes it easy to churn out three new options in no time.

@paragraph: It took me a minute, but lol.

Regrettably this conversation took place this afternoon, between myself and one of my the owners. I was putting together some options for a designer product lookbook, so it was basically only a headline and a tagline for each page. It could have been worse, of course. I managed to put together a couple of other options before I left, I was just so frustrated that I had to get it out before I could even see straight.

@sii: I have to go with James here. After all of the folks I have seen laid off lately, I am glad to have any job, even if it is run by idiots.

Funny, I thought moving here (NYC) from FL was a good career move.

@James: I am definitely going to put more things together in my downtime. On my own comp, of course.

Funny, I thought moving here (NYC) from FL was a good career move.

Usually, there's a lot of work to be found in NYC, but we're in the middle of a huge crisis -- that's certainly not your fault. Or the city's. (Well, maybe there are a few culprits in the city, but I digress.) :-)

Nobody knows when things will pick up again, but in the meantime, do work on your own comps and portfolio pieces. At some point you'll be able to find a better job and leave the crappy one behind.

I've been here just over 2 years now, and I'm glad that I got a job in the field. I just wonder if paying my dues here will help me out down the road. This studio has a reputation for late, mistake-ridden work, which is the result of poor management. I hope it winds up being something i even want on my resume. I've worked here over a year now, and I think I learned a great deal; even if much of it is how NOT to do things.

In any case, thank you for the encouragement, Ricardo. I needed it today!

Funny, I thought moving here (NYC) from FL was a good career move.

Oy vey, don’t make me regret moving here!

This studio has a reputation for late, mistake-ridden work, which is the result of poor management. I hope it winds up being something i even want on my resume.

The upside to working for a studio like that is that most designers won’t have any reason to have heard of it, and you’ll be learning plenty about what to not do after you go elsewhere.

Plenty of clients to steal and delight when you finally move on.

"This studio has a reputation for late, mistake-ridden work, which is the result of poor management".

Well, you're a link in the chain, uphold your end, don't be a part of the mistake-ridden work, and sleep conscience free.

Gee, and 4.45pm are the hard yards, are they?
Then pull some all nighters, and have more work then you have physical time to do it.

If all you have to worry about is 'serif' substitution you're on easy street!
Suck it up...it only gets harder. But you'll get better.

*rolls eyes*

Oh no, 4:45 is definitely not the "hard yards". I am (past 12est) still up on those "three versions", and for me this is an early evening (as in i might get 4 hours). I am the only person in the shop who takes work home, and often I do so more than 3 nights a week.

Until I started there, they were still using Quark 6.5, and CS for retouching and layout. Additionally, they were shooting images (for hi-res) in jpg. I have done my best to bring them up to date, and go on press with every print job I run. Even still, mistakes happen. I have yet to figure out how to prepare for the owner randomly realizing that the 300+ pg book he is supposed to run the next day is too large to fit economically on the paper he bought; subsequently giving me 2 hours to shrink the whole thing by .25 on one side. This is of course not to mention the times he gets angry at himself (the source of most of the dysfunction), and throws the laser printer or the postal scale.

I will continue to work hard, and push myself, because that's what I do. The part that stung me this afternoon was that after all i am expected to do (retouching, concept, layout, illustration, copy writing, etc), my retarded boss gets indignant about a "pokey thing". As if to say the sum total of my knowledge doesn't prepare me to be a designer simply because i chose a serif. Not that he can even say serif.

I know that all of this will make me better, I just don't want to be colored by the mistakes i try so hard to prevent. I don't want to get to the place where I don't care anymore.

@sii & James: I sure hope that's how it ends up!

I don’t want to get to the place where I don’t care anymore.

I know exactly what you're talking about... I've left jobs that paid well for that reason!

Funny, I thought moving here (NYC)

Welcome to the Northeast!

Admission at the toll gate: Your soul.

EDIT:

And I sympathize completely.

"It has too much white space."
"It's called negative space."
"Well there's too much of it. Fix it."

Or my personal favorite:
"It could use a border."

/sigh

I preface most of my first-round mockups with the following:
"Virtually everything you see is a conscious decision on my part.

If you don't like it, that's one thing. If you think it's an oversight, however, it isn't."

Though I usually answer to my peers, not my boss. So I wish you luck!

This is going to happen a lot when you're working for someone else (boss, client, etc). It's just going to. The best thing you can do is learn from it. When someone frequently makes requests like this (assuming it's more an uninformed/aesthetic complaint) it can help a lot to do some research/education. Pull some examples of things you think are designed well but are someone relevant to the project. Pull some examples of similar things and compare what your boss wants to it.

@james: Perhaps that is included in the toll for the NJ Turnpike? I must have missed some fine print somewhere. It is likely set in comic sans, which would explain my oversight.

Your preface is on point. What you said is definitely what I think, but I doubt that my boss would be open to hearing anything so blunt. I'm not beyond considering that my solution might have rough spots, but there is no need to belittle me.

and RE: neg space, lol. I think I have heard that one before myself!

@ Jackson, that is a nice tip. I am trying to find ways to streamline the concept phase, and perhaps that could be of assistance. It is just so frustrating, because in this studio, everyone is senior to me, and gets to put in their $.02, even the accountant. There is nothing that boils my blood more than someone who uses quickbooks for a living telling me im doing it all wrong.

Sympathy.

I honestly don't know any designers who don't deal with this kind of stuff. Either bosses or clients. Non-designers see the world different.

My favorites from personal experience:
"Here is a list of the points I want you to emphasize." 8 points to be made to stand out in a quarter-page ad.
Second, an insistence that I fit a two inch logo into a one inch box- without changing the size of either. :(

"use something more funky or splashy?"

I hear that often. It usually means, 'do it different, then we'll have you redo it the same corporate boring way tomorrow.'

lol. Exactly.

I have come to realize that "we want something completely different" actually means that they want something exactly the same, with a slightly different font. There is a sharp learning curve on that one.

The guy who taught me layout said, "Always leave one obvious 'eror' for your client or boss to find and tell you to fix". Especially if he/she answers to somebody higher up. It justifies their position if they can tell you to correct something. And if you put something for them to tell you to correct in there on purpose, they'll leave the rest of your work alone.

It works sometimes.
:o)

-=®=-

Tracking

I think the hard part early on for Designers working within Companies is learning to let go. If it's your own business that fine to strive to do the best and stop when you are happy with the work.

I've had clients and bosses stand over me as I've worked and nearly direct me with every node placement, only for them to say they love the crap they directed me in doing.
In times like this I couldn't approach it from a French Chef's point of view and take the work to heart and start jumping up and down that the work should be better. I just had to let go and keep the client and boss happy.

All Designers need to learn to let go of their preciousness at times, and pick when to stand and fight for good design.

I've always found that if explain the problems early or the ugliness of certain decisions you can talk some bosses or clients around. That comes with experience.

One thing you will never get around, are blind clients and bosses who want to see the mistake or bad decision before you make it. Some people have no vision or imagination and don't trust yours.
Numerous times I've told a client or boss that a certain look or graphic decision, or even production decision, won't work, only to have to show them on screen or through proofs. Now that's a waste of time.

But you can always be smart, and direct or coerce a client or boss without them even knowing it!! Set that as your plan early, do error free work, tell them things they want to hear, explain your designs and decisions...and you've got them by the nether regions!!
And that's where your true power lies.

Good Luck going forward
tearsforsappho

One pretentious jerk I worked for called white space 'visual silence'.

Another one would say "Hmm... I'm liking it..." which was usually the cue to completely start over.

Oh how I miss those days ;^P

Nick Cooke

Hey - how did everything become italicised?

@tearsforsappho we all have to take one op the @ss sometimes, saver your good moment and swallow the bad

"If it’s your own business that fine to strive to do the best and stop when you are happy with the work."
Well even when you're self-employed or run a business, you still get the occasional obnoxious client. ;-)

My favorite such story is from a few years back, when I was interning at a local advertising agency. We were re-launching the internal monthly journal of a largish company. They have four identity colors. The title has a "P", an "a", and two "e"s in it. Well, the first thing the client specified was that, "our boss had this very creative idea of filling in the four closed counters in the masthead with our four colors."
What can I say. We eventually got them down to 30% color coverage (that took WEEKS! and was a painful process on both sides), but that masthead (set in TNR Bold no less, that was an identity thing too) still looked like the doodlings of a bored schoolchild. :-|

Can somebody pleeeez close that em tag?

Drop shadows! We need drop shadows! Someone get me some drop shadows!

Serif fonts are bad! All of the major companies use sans-serif fonts, and they pay designers who make WAAY more money than you to do studies about things like that, so they must be right.

What's that giant gap at the top of the page? Couldn't you just make the logo bigger and fill up all of that space?

I think that looks nice, BUT it needs a border. And a drop shadow. Did I mention it needs a drop shadow?

I think that logo needs a logo, you know, like a symbol or something. Here's a clipart package. Find something.

And that text? It's a little small isn't it? (13pt) I mean, we don't want to alienate any blind users. Maybe bump it up to the next size? What do you mean you have to back away from your computer to read it? It's called accessibility.

That looks great. Just add a drop shadow now, and it will be perfect.

So I’m pretty sure I’m not going to get a music magazine job because I designed some mock-up pages for them using my usual prodigious amounts of white space. And set no type on an angle. And no drop shadows. And…this is why I want to just design fonts.

@DanGayle

No!

No matter how much you ridicule it I will continue to believe that a nice, breezy drop shadow can be OKAY for some jobs.

@James Deux
I love me some drop shadows, don't get me wrong. I just don't think that they belong on EVERYTHING.

i'm going to close the italics tag,
from up on comment 333632...

wait for it...

...ta-da!

there, now it should be ok. and if
the improper close from above is
repaired, this one still shouldn't hurt.
(other than causing this to fail validation,
in which case you'll wanna eliminate this one.)

i could tell you about some bosses i've had, but
believe me, you don't want to get me started.
so i became a slacker, and i have
lived happily ever after... :+)

-bowerbird

It's too late for Dr jack to close the offending italics... Maybe a moderator can take care of it. In any case, thanks, bowerbird.

Oh, and James P., that magazine job just was not worth the pain you would have endured... Keep on looking for something better!

@all, you guys crack me up.

It is all so true, and I know I just need to toughen up. I feel like i try so hard to grow, to be better, and at the end of the day, it's really not up to me. I guess that's the hardest part (as stated by Dr. J), and I just need to know when to deal with it.

I'm taking some time (now that the economy is slow) to build my portfolio. When people are spending money again, I plan on being ready to go it alone.

Again, thank you. Sometimes, it is easy to feel like I am the only one who deals with this bs.

@James, I agree with what Ricardo said.

Time to go fill in some more white space ;-)

"The guy who taught me layout ..."

Was that guy named Alexey Brodovich?

ChrisL

You think all of that is bad, try working in the sign trade. The pay is worse. The deadlines are shorter. The profit margins are smaller. The sales guy measures by counting bricks. Management wants a quality product, with no time invested. Every job is custom so template are out of the question. And let us not forget that your peers (graphic designers outside of the sign trade) think of you as a hack...

I'm not whining, just making a comment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...from the Fontry

The sales guy measures by counting bricks.

Does he know about FontStruct? ;-)

I suppose this is a good thread for stupid moments in design. The other day I was talking to one of the MDs and she told me she hated green. I pulled out a dollar bill and said "Really?". She laughed. I am in a position to do such things, being an AD and there for many, many years.

I have been told by various higher ups that they hate green (3 different people), red, so far they don't hate blue. Good for that or the entire spectrum would be shot.

There's an entire board dedicated to stupid moments in design, sorry but I have forgotten the name. My favorite story on there was a guy who worked on a piece all day, had his boss walk in near the end of the day, look at it for about 10 seconds and say "My wife hates yellow" and walk out of the room.

This is indeed a dirty business - I have fixed every bodily part known to man, been told that "She looks like a dude" by a woman, to which I replied that every woman has a Mons Venus, had to put ™ on the obviously trademarkable phrase "One Night Only", man I could go on and on.

One more - I am working on a project with a massive legalese disclaimer at the bottom. It HAS to be there. I inserted it in a small ad at 2.7 pts (I was generous enough to use auto leading). Not to mention it was reversed - needless to say it was a series of small white dots. Ridiculous.

What they can't ever take from me is the process. The moments I am involved, exploring, curious. That is where my toughness comes from, the knowledge that what I do is mysterious and most of the people peeing on my pieces have no idea what it is to lose oneself in a process of discovery.

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

pbc

My mind is subject to change without notice.

Paul - do you mean Clientcopia? http://clientcopia.com/

Oh yes - it's been a long time.

There are many posters waiting there to be made.

pbc

My mind is subject to change without notice. I should know, but I don't…

— Even my nephew knows how to bevel and emboss!
— This gif I found, is perfect for our [12 foot] banner.
— Maybe more green?
— There is still some empty space on the page!
— What do you mean you don't want to stretch it across? Miguel did it all the time!
— Why buy fonts when there are thousands of free ones online?
— You are not using the full rainbow!
_____________________________________________
Personal Art and Design Portal of Ivan Gulkov
www.ivangdesign.com

— Even my nephew knows how to bevel and emboss!
— This gif I found, is perfect for our [12 foot] banner.
— Maybe more green?
— There is still some empty space on the page!
— What do you mean you don’t want to stretch it across? Miguel did it all the time!
— Why buy fonts when there are thousands of free ones online?
— You are not using the full rainbow!

"Maybe more green" is too serious: it doesn't fit.