>Do you like boats?<

The picture is my grandfather with me (on the right) and my older brother. It was taken while my father was away at WWII.
The sailor suits were from my grandfather (Papou) who was a fisherman in Greece before he came here and worked in the steel mills of Pittsburgh.

Chris

Chris,

Gerald, keep making the beautiful type you are making and let the young tech. jockeys of today ready it for the next "new" thing. It is like turning your drawings over to a punch cutter, you get to challenge them and speak your mind but they have to do the dirty work of cutting steel.

Actually Chris, not all is lost. I was thinking about this yesterday, meaning to ask you what your thoughts are. Remember when we were young and it was the philosophy of the day.

"Don't trust anyone over thirty".

It has taken me many years to find truth to that wisdom. We were right.

Some of these young kids are great, they actually listen and care about what you have to say. They are not as much interested in the Bells & Whistles of the Radio Tube Generation that keeps creeping up our butts. But they care about the arts.

Or lets call it beauty and the traditional values, there is that young fellow in New Zealand for instance. His logo with the "K". Good kid, and that fine "a" fellow from Italy, absolute gold. For me they are everything, a chance to pass down values. Chris you should remember that most of my life Lithography and Photocomp were well established. I did not participate in any of that. I never produced a single job in my entire life by either method. I am not a techno-junkie, I leave that to the "Buck Rogers" of the world. Especially when it is so clearly inferior, clearly misdirected. I was not involved in hot metal because it was just the technology of the day. I was involved because of its clear superiority which is well acknowledged by, for instance, fellow forum member, Gerald Lange. He does beautiful work, sent me something, an earlier customer. I kept it on my walls for years until it was lost in the tidal wave.

So I am not much interested in the nonsense of technology. I was involved in hot metal because I was interested in the book arts. The books arts are going to come to pass and some people are going to pretend that new technology is better. Yes they will be making plastic women next. They have got to be better. At least for those guys.

They are simply fooling themselves.

You have probably noticed that I have my little fights in this forum. People thinking they know more than I. Some of which, by the way, would not even be in this industry had it not been for my inspiration. John Hudson for instance.

I am proud of him. Cheeky but "who am I to complain".

But if I have any qualities I would like to pass down it is by virtue of the arts. That and my forever insightful personality quirks. I suspect you haven't noticed them.

What do boats have to do with typography? I thought your would never ask. For me everything, adventure and freedom. To stay in touch with the planets.

But ask what kind of boats do I like?

"Wooden boats."

You know why, because they are made of wood by human hands with traditions that have gone back to early man. I learned something about building wooden boats and it is a soul searching experience to learn things that were actually discovered and used by forefathers of forefathers that go back thousands of years ago that are just as valuable today as they were then. Wooden nails for instance. Trunnels they are called. I could tell you a lot about trunnel making itself, about the woods, but I want to keep this as a short little note. Wooden boats have evolved from simple floating logs to shells, the opposite of cups that keep liquids in, boats keep liquid out. Well hopefully�they do spring the odd leak, but then again, who doesn't?

Wooden boats are mankind's first attempts to make animals, early cloning, test tube animals if you will. Wooden boats are given a soul because without one, what would they be�plastic? Wooden boats have a backbone, ribs and skin, they move, bend, groan, and complain if you don't give them attention. They can be playful like children. Boats like to roam and be free, they are not happy tethered to a dock. They are not domesticated. They are the stallions of the sea.

But stallions do not wear underwear.

Wooden boats speak of the people that built them. Far more localized distinctions than most would think. They vary in the Finnish Archipelago from Island to island. But to the untrained eye you would never know the difference. But they can.

Some day I will tell you about the ingenious method they charted the islands.

There is something to navigating by the stars, the winds in the sails, and far away places to go. Something to the solitudes that inspire man to realize he is merely a small part of some incomprehensible vast act not part of our own making.

Also I like marble, you have a Greek background. One of the most amazing experiences in my life was this Greek shipmate his name was Frank, at least that is what he was called. He was a sculpture working on a naked lady, life size in his cabin. He loved what he was doing, he worked away for hours on that rock in his cabin while others went a-whoring. I found in this man's work something exhilarating and I had this wonderful vision I would like to share with you. Frank decided when Greece was taken over by that Popadopolous dictator dude, (Names, I suffer from a condition called anomia, which means I am a man without nouns, incurable I might add, Thomas picks on me about that, I don't think picking on old impaired people is a nice feature of his.) I think that was his name, that he was not going to return to his homeland. Of me he requested a boat to be arranged so he could escape this dictator, a request a good friend could not deny. The peculiarity of his predicament was this huge hunk of marble in his cabin, it was not finished. I got this old lapstrake row boat, of substantial proportions I might add, also it had a little putt putt Briggs & Stratton engine in her belly. I ran her down from horseshoe bay, a tormented journey. We didn't call it stealing when we were young, we never stole cars or nothing like that, we just borrowed them, more often than not we forgot to mention it to the owner. Besides when we did they always said no.

But it was a dark night, I came along side this old ship owned by Onasis of all things, a steam donkey on deck was a huffing and puffing away as he lowered his naked marble lady into this borrowed boat. The moon shone through the marble exposing the soul of the woman, she came to life for me that very moment. She cast upon me a message about the arts of great enlightenment. I call it the "dead spirits amongst men". Those that have yet to find the spirits in the arts are just marble without a soul.

Call me a simple man. I have just tried to make this world a prettier place for our children to read in. Hopefully I have not wasted my life.

Nice chatting with you Chris, hope you have a nice day. Oh, by the way, do you know why boats are female? http://lanstontype.com/GiampaGoesToSea.html
Lower left hand column.

Chis,

Thank you for that wonderful post. Greeks are great seamen. You should, and I can see that you are, proud of your heritage.

I got some ideas?

John,

Gutenberg lined up his pieces of metal and challenged the scribes to keep up.

Are you comparing yourself to the modern day Gutenberg? I don't watch TV John. But I find Type 1 just fine. Thank you very much.

I'm not comparing myself to anyone, I'm pointing out that what you characterised as an age of radio and television has given birth to something incredibly text oriented -- the Internet --, not to mention more book, magazine and newspaper publishing than at any previous time in history.

If you find Type 1 fine, go ahead and use it for as long as you can. When the operating systems and eventually Adobe themselves stop supporting the format, I'm sure someone will provide a third-party or open source rasteriser to keep the technology alive, although straight conversion of the 8-bit fonts to the OpenType file format would be as easy or easier. But take a look at these web pages that test encoding and layout for different scripts and languages, and understand that only a handful of the scripts and languages they show can be correctly rendered with Type 1 fonts:

http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/madore/misc/unitest/
http://www.unics.uni-hannover.de/nhtcapri/multilingual1.html
http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/#links

You may be satisfied with Type 1 fonts, but most of the world will not. Developments in font technology are not driven by North American fine printers, they are driven by millions of Chinese, Indian and Arabic computer users. This is why the Type 1 format is doomed: it simply isn't up to the job. The fact that you think it's fine is completely irrelevant to it's prospects.

John,

I am going to look at these links. Also I am thinking about this OpenType business once again.

Still, I must ask myself what I can do for the Chinese, Indian and Arabic computer users? But I am not going to think about it long because the answer is obvious. So I am just going along with you because you are an old friend and I know you are trying to be helpful.

For you, OpenType is part of your business. Type making tools, exotic language issues is, or so it seems is, part of your business.

For me it is not, maybe Finnish.

I would have to ask myself how I could be of help to these people, what designs can I offer them? What do they know or wish to know about Goudy, Bruce Rogers, Caslon. Also I must ask how I am able to make a living from them?

You want to subsidize Lanston John?

With all the free fonts out there, fonts getting spam bundled. Downloads from the net with absolutely no business model. Why would people from a foreign exotic language speaking company want to buy a font from us, or for that matter you?

One would presume firstly they were going to set something, perhaps in French, English? The usual. For the English or French Type 1 fonts are just fine. The exotic speaking language countries unless set by some roaming intellectual would not even know what a "ligature" was. But if they did, we already have them. Swash, small caps, oldstyle figures, etc. Strictly academic folk would need those and those folk are smart enough to use Type 1 fonts and have already been using them for years. But most likely if those people found a ligature automatically stuck into their text they would have to make a service call to find out what was wrong with the font. Who needs the agro?

I am speaking of our alphabet. 99.99% would be unable to distinguish between a good European type design from a bad one. For that matter they would not be able to distinguish the different sounds of a "b" from an "h". 99.99% of them can not speak a word of English. I am sure the literacy rate is at least as bad as Prince Edward Island Canada where only one in four can read a single word of English or French. I am sure the situation is probably much the same in those countries.

So you say I should design foreign "exotic" languages, I must say "no" to that suggestion. Firstly I would find it far too arrogant for me to presume to do a better job than their best and my interest is in the best. Naturally I am open minded and if William came to me and said he designed a Hebrew Alphabet that he thought was good. I would certainly jump at the opportunity to address such a matter. I have a great deal of respect for his sound observations.

Mega Corporations, Chinese, Japanese, Indian companies that are selling big ticket items hire a good American, English or Canadian Advertising companies for print promotional materials in the English speaking world. That is how I can help them. That is how I can make a meagre living. That market exist for us today. Type 1 fonts I must emphasize.

Eastern European Languages I could be helpful with, once again, there is no logical business model. First our designers are unknown. Our promotional materials would have to be translated. Our fonts would have to be worked over, new characters and accents added. Then some way of getting found on the web would have to be examined. Not to mention currency and banking concerns, fraud, piracy but let us not forget the obvious. E-mail correspondence. How many different telemarketers, or e-mail personal would I require.

Heeeeelp, I am already drowning.

Sorry John this does not look like it is going in your favour.

This is a big world. You need, and you sound, like you have resources that I don't. I predict if you removed those resources and competed on a one on one level with Lanston and followed your own advise predictably the next time I visited you we would be meeting in Oppenhiemer Park within several months.

So make sure you get yourself a pigeon gun before you do anything so foolish. After all you might not like the line ups at the food bank.

Not to mention, if by some insane fluke profits were to be found that were substantial you would be cheated out of your due rewards by some bully mega corp that bundles a "copy product" for free with their applications.

I am curious. What type face do you strongly recommend to the typophiles, or the advertising world that was designed by someone in Bombay, Iraq or some other place with an exotic language by a designer that "could not speak or read a single word of English"? Or any common European Language? Please don't tell me Baskerville was designed by Halima Abdule from Somalia. Besides she is still alive and teaches in Roxhill Elementary School in America.

The trick to this question is that the recommendation has to be for a book of English literature, such as Shakespeare, or high end advertising print promotional material. Such as Rolls Royce.

Next question: How many fonts do you commonly use that has been designed by someone that does not speak any European language or any language that uses the Latin alphabet? By someone that only speaks their own exotic language and nothing else? Remember William speaks English.

Now I hope your answers to those two questions are similar because the questions are.

But it is possible if the moon can be flat. But not likely to win "top TDC awards.

Now I am not saying it can't be done, I am just saying I am not going to risk what little I already make in this business on plain foolishness. Call me Mr. Conservative.

Anyway let me help you with the answer, Probably not many. How many do you use daily? Probably none. How many have you purchased? Well you are a strange one, and you have those quirky but interesting typographical pursuits. If anybody does I would think it would be you.

But for the rest of us I am afraid we know names like Bodoni, Caslon, Goudy. Not much chow mein shows up in my fonts menu. Although I would like to have some soon, I am rather hungry.

Can I come for dinner John? Alright, alright.

But I will tell you what. If it is that big an issue someday I might upgrade my TypeLab software if it has an auto generate OpenType format and maybe play around with positioning the ligatures etc.

Now we have come to some amicably agreement, I have made all the movement, I would now ask that you push towards a rational optical scaling for type. I do not mean optical sizes. Also to build tools so this is not a lifetime project.

But before you gloat you should know what my reason for considering OpenType. As you know I love ornaments, http://lanstontype.com/DreyfusKeyboardLoft.html and in my fine press days I worked for many Jewish, and Iranians customers that came to me because of my work. So that is where I believe Lanston has the most to offer these people. Ornaments seem to be part of their culture.

OpenType maybe a good place to put these ornaments to work. Computers are patently inferior in ornament handling to hand set type. In fact inferior to setting them on a Monotype. Maybe I can find something in that format that would make my time worth the while.

As for the rest of all the 8 bit nonsense I know nothing about and could care a less about as long as I can make beautiful and useful things.

My final complaint about both aeroplanes and computers is the are just too dam slow, and I can't stand waiting for them to "crash".

So when you speak of bits, you are really scaring me John. When I hear bits, I hear screams, I see blood lots of blood and get this sinking feeling. It makes me want to upchuck.

Now finally.

How many applications support OpenType?
What is the statistics from a minor font company that can indicate the following.

How long does it take to make an OpenType font fully featured?

How much more can one fairly charge for an OpenType font as opposed to a Type 1 font?

In otherwords when I visit should I expect to bring my swimming trunks for your swimming pool which was earned by that difference in "direct, end user font sales"?

Or will that not be necessary?

If OpenType offered nothing but ugly fonts and Type 1 offered the fonts you liked. Which would you buy for your poetry magazine?

None of these questions are unreasonable.

Mmmmm...
Just came back from my holiday, and saw all these posts, didn't exepect to get som many. Thanks all for your help. didn't realise that this was such an issue. Anyway my problem still remains and as for more details, thing is that I live in Israel and the fonts I have problem with are Hebrew fonts, which makes things even more comlicated since quark needs special hebrew fonts (problem with hebrew is that it is written from right to left). so thanks again, I hope I can find a sollotion. I'll try using older distillers.

Gerald, I think you are missing my point. I'm not trying to convince you that OpenType is a good thing for you -- although I certainly don't think it is a bad thing, see below --, I'm trying to explain to you why the change in font formats is inevitable, because of the short-comings of the Type 1 format in terms of supporting the scripts and languages and media that are important to the people who specify digital font formats. It is irrelevant whether you like OpenType or not.

But some practical information about OpenType for you:

1. OpenType is primarily a font file format -- all the bells and whistles of automatic ligature substitution etc. are optional. The font file format is a) a single binary file, b) cross-platform compatible, c) Unicode encoded, d) in the case of a PS font much smaller than a Type 1 font with the same glyph set. So even a straight conversion of existing Type 1 fonts, without adding any smart layout features, is an improvement for both font developer and customer. The developer only has to manage a single source and a single binary, instead of having to make multiple, different Type 1 font binaries for Mac and Windows. The customer gets a single, easy to install and manage binary that can be used on both Mac and Windows.

2. How many applications support OpenType?
Every application on my system supports the OpenType file format; it is, in fact, the most widely supported font format ever. In terms of supporting fancy layout features, Adobe and Microsoft are coming at the question from two different directions: Adobe apps support layout for rich typographic features and Japanese; Microsoft apps support language layout features for complex scripts such as Devanagari, Arabic, etc. The two seem set to meet each other and pass in the middle, with Adobe adding support for complex scripts (already in the Middle East version of InDesign from WinSoft) and Microsoft adding support for typographic features. Last year, Microsoft announced system-level support for OpenType typographic features for the next version of Windows: this means any application will get OpenType Layout support by making standard system text output calls. Quark have made semi-public acknowledgement that they are working on making Xpress Unicode-savvy as a first step to supporting OpenType; they have a long way to go but that's their own fault not OpenType's.

3. How long does it take to make an OpenType font fully featured?
If you have all the glyphs already -- which you do -- it can be done fairly quickly. A small family with standard ligatures, smallcaps, etc. can be done manually in a day. Obviously if you have a sizeable library of fonts, you want to automate the conversion as much as possible. If I had such a library, I would likely hire someone like Adam Twardoch to develop FontLab scripts to merge glyph sets from existing Type 1 fonts and build automatic OT Layout feature lookups based on glyph names. Fonts with non-standard glyph sets, e.g. something like Goudy Text with its alternate caps, would need to be handled manually, but this is still a pretty minor job that shouldn't take more than a few hours.

4. How much more can one fairly charge for an OpenType font as opposed to a Type 1 font?
Um, whatever the market can handle? Personally, I charge money for designs not font formats. If you significantly expand the glyph set of a font, e.g. by adding extra ligatures or other alternate forms that were not in the Type 1 fonts, then I think you are justified in charging more. My principal reasons for preferring OT fonts are those discussed in No.1 (above): they are easier to manage than Type 1. I have not made a Type 1 font for several years now, and I hope never to make one again.

['Direct, end user font sales' in any format will not be paying for my swimming pool. Making custom fonts for complex scripts might just. But I spend most of my income on books.]

5. If OpenType offered nothing but ugly fonts and Type 1 offered the fonts you liked. Which would you buy for your poetry magazine?
I would buy the Type 1 fonts and I would spend an afternoon converting them to OpenType to make them easier to use. Considering how powerful my computer is, I shouldn't have to think about ligatures: they should just happen. I certainly shouldn't have to butcher the text in order to typeset it, changing every occurence of the word 'office' to 'oWce', for example, in order to get at the ligature in some expert set. Of course, Lanston puts their ligatures in the basic character set, but still associated with characters that requires changes to the text. I don't think typesetting should be a process of breaking text.

6. As for the rest of all the 8 bit nonsense I know nothing about and could care a less about as long as I can make beautiful and useful things.
The key word in that statement, as it relates to this discussion, is 'useful'. In order to be useful, a thing has to be useable. People made beautiful things for the Bobst photosetter (Bram de Does' Trinit� typeface, for example), but that technology is no longer useable. That is going to happen to Type 1 fonts. It is the destiny of font formats to become obsolete. The beauty survives in reincarnation in new formats. This is what you signed up for when you started making fonts. Did you really think the first generation device independent PC font format was going to stand still? Personally, I'm amazed Type 1 lasted so long as it did.



Guy, I thoroughly encourage you to check out InDesign Middle East edition. This is what I use for Hebrew, and it is far advanced over anything Quark has to offer.

Gerald:
If you'd like, I could build you a "Caslon337 OT" and send it to you. Gratis. You could have it tomorrow.

Aside:

[Regarding ornaments, Gerald, as I've explained in previous discussions, I don't think there is any particular benefit to using fonts as a mechanism for ornament layout. Ornament fonts are something we've inherited from a time when 'output', i.e. printing, consisted of positioning little pieces of metal. What was on the pieces of metal didn't matter to the press, only to the mind of the composer (and in the case of your ornament fugues, the double-meaning of 'composer' is particularly apt). A piece of metal may have a letter on the end or an ornament, it made no difference to the press. But digital type is very different: the computer is not just an output device, it is a text input, storage and editing device. Digital typography is text-centric in a way that metal type was not: directly manipulating and positioning individual sorts is possible on computer, but all our page layout apps and font formats are based on setting lines of text. This is why, as I've suggested before, dedicated ornament setting software that does not rely on font and text layout technologies is a better solution.]

John,

Regarding your last post. We wrote about that earlier. A forum member who is extremely technically adept wrote me privately and told me your idea would never work as well as a font format. My instincts told me the same.

I put my instincts aside. At that time I had little to no experience with graphic files. In fact my experiments with your suggestion is the most graphics experience I have.

All of my work is almost one hundred percent type. Always has been. One notable exception was the Mante book.
http://lanstontype.com/GirlNaturalSetting.html
Which had to have pictures, it was about early photography.

Other than that I can't remember any book that included pictures.

Non book occasions such as my work for the University of Denver. The Drulow? Drewlo? can't remember the spelling. An important Denver artist. This was called her "One Hand Period" She had been in Japan in the very early 20's broken her arm and had to cut her wood blocks by standing on the block with her foot and cutting the artwork with her good hand. Her work, by the way, was outstanding. These blocks had never seen ink. The wood looked like it was cut yesterday and they wanted perfectly printed proofs of these on hand made paper without any damage other than ink. They chose Northland Letterpress http://lanstontype.com/BuickIvy.html for this project. So that single job had no type and was strictly woodcuts. They sent the famous Errol Ettiene up from Denver who insisted on sleeping in the plant to protect the artwork and any copies that may go astray by the local dumpster divers. Of which, by the way, your old employer, William Hoffer, Bookseller was amongst them.

Another would be wood cuts by the Famous Canadian Artist Bill Reid when he was well into his Parkinson�s Disease Period. http://lanstontype.com/BillReid.html

And another exception. A large well designed book form proposal which included line drawings of various species of third world cows. A semi-commercial text about the science proposal of having third world cows give birth to Heffers.

I called it the "rent a womb" project.

Then the dreaded $89,000.00 Vanderbuilt project.

What I am hinting at is that my true talents are typographical. Graphics for me is merely like instant printing. The art work is supplied and I was putting ink on paper very carefully.

After you made your suggestion I did experiment. Back and forth between programs, too little control over positioning. Endless layering problems and certainly stubborn to even the slightest change, which hampers greatly, the creative process. Every change went back to a different program. I would prefer a plug in to an existing page layout program such as PageMaker. Colour was a real bother, I found myself painting little pictures. And one thing I recall is "naming the files". Cleaning up after myself was like doing diapers.

One of my web pages was built in your suggested fashion. I was thinking about how easy it would work, if it would work, if this was in fact a good way to go. Well it does work. Not very well. My skills aside.

I was thinking of solutions to the very problems I was having. Some of the problems I was having, the most irritating problems I was having, do not exist in "font format".

Size is a biggy, scaling a graphics can cause visible damage in quality. File storage is not altogether compact. For every point size you would have to generate a gazillion different sizes when in a font format only one. It just looks to me like a no go solution.

Furthermore the other problems remained the same, but the solutions led to font format solutions and not graphics. In other words I saw no obvious solution working in graphics format where I could see multiple solutions in "font format".

In other words I was busy making clip-art fonts without any of the benefits of genuine fonts.

You may say to yourself, but you could make a program?

To come up with a solution you have to know what the problems are. In other words no problem no solution. So I worked within existing programs, and experimented. Thinking about the problems, thinking about how to improve them. I can tell you quickly there was no good answers available unless you could cut everything back put them into grids make them into fonts and work them in that fashion. In other words all roads went home to typography. From that point, "as fonts" I see many opportunities to make improvements and always have. The advantage is that you don't have to make fonts into graphics and then make them back into fonts so you can work with them. Doesn't sound good.

Not to mention scaling is a major factor and I just detest how PDF's rasterize graphics, particularly if you use the magnifying glass. Type on the other hand, I am sure everyone has noticed, is wonderful. The bigger it gets the better job it raterizes. With graphics the reverse in true.

However I have an answer that would put ornaments back into big time visibility. If Adobe made a slight change allowing you to hold down the "Shift Key", "Wake Up" a character, then "Wake Up" another character, and another if need be. Then a colour change or font change would be all it would take.

When PageMaker was still Aldus PageMaker, rather than the more stubborn Adobe PageMaker, they were doing this very thing at my suggestion. They had programmers back and forth several times. In fact there were working prototypes. This feature would be useful not only with ornaments. To be honest they indicated the code was very simple.

By the way this same feature would make other things much easier as well.

Take a look at this, http://lanstontype.com/Pabst-Goudy.pdf
I am not finished with this page yet. Second line, look at the "leaves" bookending the word "Pabst". Think about changing the colour of those leaves and the process required. First you must pick one leaf, change its colour. Pick the next leaf, then change the colour.

Well think about this you pick one leaf holding down the shift key, then pick the other leaf and then change the colour. Which is quicker?

If you are not yet convinced take a look at the colour paragraph marks on the right hand column imagine having to change those colours, or even make, for some reason a font change. Well it is easier to work by copying on and pasting into each position sometimes disturbing such things a word spacing. However it would be easier and more flexible in the fashion I have indicated. Next, and to make a killer ornament program all you need is one additional feature. A more robust "seek and change" routine. So why should I write a program when it would be best for everyone if Adobe wrote a few simple lines of code making their application far more powerful. Allowing a very traditional aspect of typography some breathing room in the modern stage.

I hope I have described this fairly well. The Aldus gang could see the advantages very quickly but the Adobe people for reasons unknown to me can not see it at all.

Maybe I am talking to the wrong people at Adobe. Unfortunately for me Sumner Stone is gone.

But it would work for me entirely, no further programming would be required. I am not in the application business. I am in the font business. What do they have to worry about. Nothing.

I would simply include this manual with my ornament fonts. If they wished they could include the same manual in their fonts or their application programs.

And John, you of all people know very well I have nothing but good intentions in this industry. I love this industry and I am just trying to make things better, not worse.

I am sorry I can not run this through a spell checker and I am in my dyslexia part of my day. So I hope you find this partially understandable

John Nolan,

Before I take you up on that you should think about the fact that Caslon 337 has about 17 fonts.

Maybe something smaller.

But I have to say I am overwhelmed by your offer of support. Are you serious?

Gerald, on your website you show some images of pattern development using cut out pieces of paper. You might consider that a paradigm for any dedicated ornament software. What made that approach useful? How can it be modelled on a computer? I'm guessing that the freedom to very quickly manipulate shapes -- to flip them, rotate them, move them -- is what makes this approach useful. But text layout is all about putting glyphs in lines, and what if you decide that you pattern should have one unit rotated 45 degrees in the middle of the line? With paper you get out your scissors. With metal you get out your file or your furniture. With digital type you have to make a separate story element, and then you have to rotate that and try to accurately position it relative to another story element. This seems to me very awkward. I'm not surprised that you had a hard time using current graphics tools, because they are not ornament-dedicated; they have not been designed with pattern-making in mind.

You say the trick is to understand the problems. This is partly true, but one should be aware of which problems are particular to technology -- i.e. problems of accurate alignment in existing apps, inability to take a virtual file to an ornament -- and which problems are fundamental to design with ornaments. I wouldn't start from the problems; I would start from the possibilities. The best, most innovative software begins from determining what you would like to be able to do if you had total freedom, not from trying to solve problems inherited from other technologies.

What comes to my mind when I think about ornaments -- and I must admit to not thinking about them very often -- includes something like a font file, i.e. a kind of holder for a collection of ornaments. This could, in fact, be a font. But the input and editing mechanisms would be totally divorced from the text model of digital typesetting. Actually, it would be much more like setting metal ornaments by hand: you would have the digital equivalent of a tray of ornaments -- containing one or more collections, which could be purchased as sets and also user-defined, making it easy to mix and match from different collections -- and you would be able to select elements, drag them into position, rotate them, slant or shear them, edit directly to remove or change portions of individual elements, and so on. You could set up a grid in the work area, and there would also be snap to alignment commands. Parametric pattern making would be easy also: you could specify the number of elements, the kinds of rotation permitted, etc. and let the software build the pattern. You could assign colour to individual elements or discreet sub-elements, or globally assign colour to every instance of a particular element in the design. Actually, this suggests to me a further refinement, the ability to define classes of elements, so that you can control attributes (rotation, colour, etc.) for groups of elements. The same element could belong to more than one class, and could be globally adjusted in the design in different ways depending on from which class it was selected.

All this is just of the top of my head while sitting here typing. If we were in a restaurant, I could draw it on the tablecloth for you.

John,

Did I hear tablecloth. How busy are you?
Saganaki? Characters�Gastown?

This could be arranged.

I'm in and out of town a lot during the summer, but if I'm going to be around for a few day stretch at some point I'll let you know.

Greek food in North America is so disappointing after Thessaloniki.

Gerald:
Check your email tomorrow.

John,

I appreciate your offer to take me to Greece for lunch but I must decline. Soon I should get back to Finland. I just thought since I was in the neighbourhood we could get together.

What I was showing earlier is that some of the features lacking in PageMaker would share strong use in more typical typesetting. Not just ornaments. I would like to sell (for free) Adobe on the idea of some incremental improvements.

The edit feature, for instance "change". That feature would be best improved. For instance it would be nice to be able to change fonts in a text such as the italics within without selecting each individual word or group. If you want to change "just" the italics. It would change "just" but all the "italics", or "just the italics in just one size" and if need be, change the colour at the same time, or if a word is repeated and needs kerning, your could kern once, change all. In otherwords it should have more text editing abilities. Granted it does have some word processing stuff going on, but it is not supposed to be just for legal secretaries. Also the colour component would have many uses.

Then a few macros inside the macros and we are about home free. So some independent scripts would be nice. In fact rather than have Adobe write the scripts I would be just as happy to include recordings with my fonts. If Adobe included a script managing tool that allowed independent scripts to be written that would work for me, and many others. I know there is some kind of built in scripts but I don't know what they are for, or if you can add to them. It so it certainly is not obvious to us old folk. That, and an inspiring little book/manual designed by yours truly http://lanstontype.com/GiampaJugendsali.html and the typographical world will sparkle like the Taz Mahal. http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/tejo.html

What's wrong with that? Nothing.

What I am suggesting is that PageMaker would well serve its (my) customers by having a robust macro recorder built into its text editing capabilities. Not to mention my "ulterior motive" with ornaments.

Anyway, were you speaking of this series?

http://lanstontype.com/BoquetOfFlowers.html
http://lanstontype.com/DreyfusProofs.html
http://lanstontype.com/DreyfusTwo.htmlhttp://lanstontype.com/DreyfusBinding.html

Or this series.

http://lanstontype.com/EndPapers.html

http://lanstontype.com/ArabesqueGalley.html
http://lanstontype.com/ArabesqueProof.html
http://lanstontype.com/ArabesquePencil.html
http://lanstontype.com/ATFCover.html

I have written a manual. Sumner Stone and I had discussed the best way of doing handling this. We concluded that was the best way to proceed.

An ornament handling program is an interface question first, technical second. But I have defined what I would like to see. I emphasize the word "see".

PageMaker is a bit of a dead end. Adobe are only marketing it to business/secretarial users. It is no longer being developed as a serious page layout app for professional use. In terms of existing apps that are current and in active development, InDesign and Illustrator are your best choices for further investigation.

Gerald G.,

InDesign's Find/Change function offers most, if not all, of the text editing functions you're after. It isn't limited to finding word A and replacing it with word B; it can find all instances of Typeface Bold and replace them with Typeface Bold Italic, for example. Or find any combination of characteristics, including color, size, tracking, alignment, and a host of others, and replace them with any other set of characteristics.

Very powerful, and especially useful when one hasn't had the foresight to set up paragraph and character styles for frequently used settings.

As a Pagemaker user, you'll find much that is familiar in InDesign. If you're comfortable in Illustrator, even better. And Quark users (like me) usually make the switch without too much pain, and often (like me) with great enthusiasm.

On the scripting/macro side, InDesign is more scriptable than any competing application; scripts can be added by anybody who wants to (in Java on either platform, AppleScript on the Mac and Visual Basic on Windows), though you have to actually write or modify them --you can't record scripts. Additionally, the plug-in architecture exposes more than any competitor, and IIRC the plug-in developers' kit (SDK) is free.

Hi, Gerald:
Check your email... I've sent you a package.

John Nolan

Wow, this is a great 6:33 in the morning surprise. Sorry, I am not in my usual position. I am on Lopez Island looking at a sailing schooner. But will return.

It works on a PC, Nice trick. Don't tell anybody I said that.

Don't forget to wave at the passing cars.

John, Marc, Thomas,

Thank you all for your input. I have some problems switching to InDesign, old problems revisited.

"PageMaker is a little dead." Maybe you are right John. I found little reason to move upwards. Besides it works just fine. I am not sure PageMaker is "professional or not" but I have worked with some large book publishing companies that seem happy with my "amateurish work".

In any event I have some questions which are "Real Problems Switching to InDesign."

I am running PageMaker 6.5. I did "not" want PageMaker 6.5 because "I had purchased InDesign 1.5". The reason I have PageMaker 6.5 is because my yet even older version of PageMaker files were unable to be ported over to InDesign.

So I am not stuck with PageMaker because I don't want to switch. I am stuck with PageMaker because "I have no other choice".

A bad business decision in someone else�s "Marketing Plan".

Adobe told me that if I imported my older files into PageMaker 6.5, I could import those files into InDesign 1.5. Sounded simple, but expensive to me. But what the heck�"go for it" I said.

My files were transferred into PageMaker 6.5. No small task believe me.

So I did the right thing, or so I thought.

After doing what I was advised by Adobe� "the files did not port over to InDesign 1.5 correctly", they are "frozen" with no apparent method of editing them. And a mess.

I agree, some of the files are complex. Perhaps black and white, Times New Roman, no graphics may port over and work. I would not know? I don't make those kinds of files.

So I went back to PageMaker and there I stay.

Perhaps a "new InDesign for purposes of testing OpenType fonts. Lot of money for that.

I have spoken to someone that seems to know a lot more about this than I.

Here is the problem.

Maybe there is a way to move the files into InDesign 1.5 "correctly" although I have yet to find one.

But I have heard that InDesign 2.0 will not import files correctly, or even at all from InDesign 1.5.

So where does that leave me? In a land of the somewhat peeved.

Is this all hopeless? I have accumulated a lot of files over the years. What should I do with them? By the way�other people�are still running PageMaker for the same reason.

This is the kind "forced upgrade path" that I would advise against. What I see here is this� if a corporation develops "new software" that leaves "LOYAL CUSTOMER'S FILES DEAD". It is time to rethink the business model. You don't see this customer moving forward�too quickly.

To put it simply, that is a failed business model.

������������������������������
The customer should� "not be forced�not to upgrade".
������������������������������
Is that too hard to understand?

I will get around to the "long term solution" to this particular customer complaint real soon.

Corporation thinks sales should be "good" when the old dies because they have the "new to replace it" they should remember the purpose for software. Software is a tool, the same as a hammer. Just because there is a new hammer invented does not mean you have to "tear down the half finished house". TOOL MAKES HOUSE. What is the purpose for the tool? I hate to go Ronald Reagan on your folk.

"But there is all these files", all this work "orphaned by YOUR NEW HAMMER". Guess what, I like the old hammer! The word "new" begins to lose its magic when years of a man's work is about to be lost. "New to that man is "BAD".

So instead of following the "incremental path which is profitable". It seems we have returned to the planned obsolescence model which is truly outdated.

In other words why would anyone buy "new software" that can not run the "old files"? When you design a new car, do you dig up the roads?

Think of it this way. If you buy a "new fridge" don't you want to move your food over? This "business model" is doomed to failure. I can't believe anyone would be so foolish.

To me this is corporate madness.

We are going through a period, at least for a segment of the population of �wait-&-see-ware� rather than "buy-new-software".

I do appreciate the problems of software development, however, planned obsolescence is bad practice. Too much junk in land fill sites.
(Make note to self, I remember something about patents & tacit abandonments.)

The results of "orphaning loyal customers" the software market is now baby based, "no baby-boom, no market-boom".
������������������������������
Lanston makes fonts so Mr. Giampa keeps his ear to the ground. This is how Giampa envisions the future.
������������������������������

I would "freeze" with the PageMaker 6. I would bottom feed on machinery that would keep it all alive. At that point there would be no future for any software or hardware company to make another nickel from me.

Jim Rimmer I suspect feels the same way. But you think we are just "old guys".

But I can tell you that there are people in this forum that feel the same way and are resisting the methods of the present day business model.

There is nothing wrong with a G4, and neither PageMaker or InDesign will make me a better or worse "designer" because of it. Designing is the "human factor".

But, I am in the font business. I have no choice than to pay attention to the drums of the future, as faint as they are.

I guess I was wrong, "I am ranting and raving".

New computers, new software, well no, that's not what I think will happen. PC's are going to be replaced by dumb boxes. Some here will not know what dumb boxes are. Best put, a TV screen with a keyboard. In the old days computers were big, really big boxes. You didn't need a desk, you needed a concrete floor. However you could log through the phone lines and get all the power as if a full main frame was sitting on your desktop. All applications ran on sever based software and could be at "your disposal".

Think about it, think about the "web".

You young uns just aren't keeping up.

This is how I see the future. "My crystal ball has finger prints on it. OK, there it is "crystal clear". Omar says, "End User desktop applications, fonts and computer hardware will free fall with out a parachute.

Sounds like a terrorist attack folks.

Oh, I see now what Omar is saying. "The writing is on the wall�web based applications will replace all future software, PC hardware and font formats".

"Web-direct-to-press."

Omar, what's happening in the font business?

"Buy IBM Stock".

Omar used to be a stock broker, time to put a lid on Omar. But on the serious side, web based applications are a thing of the very "near future". Think of the advantages, seamless upgrades in both software and hardware. Hardware will sell in the low hundreds of dollars. There will be a keyboard and a screen. Small chip, something, not much. Think cheap, no software to speak of. Access to anything, always up to date.

So what my thoughts are is this, �new age� has had its day, �it was a good run�, but now the mine is running out of ore. "Utilities industries, such a phones services, electricity etc. is clearly where this industry is headed. This is the only way to expand the market, to allow the third world to catch up, certainly you have to admit. If I am unable to keep up with the expenses, how do you expect them too. Web is the answer.

Think of it this way. If you had money you would pay for the "applications time". If you did not have the money, such as the third world, you could have "station break advertising pay for the time" such as on TV. Free, great way to bring those people up to speed. Even the odd cheap skate.

A very different business model.

In fact my guess is that the push to OpenType is because it may be, just may be, Unix based. http://www.computerhope.com/history/unix.htm

And back to Finland. http://www.computerhope.com/unix/linux.htm

Unix, Linux, server, server, server I hear the whistles blowing.

Do I get my "pointy hat & wand" now?

Sorry to cut this short but I have a ferry to catch.

Gerald

There is an email list devoted to Pagemaker and Pagemaker loyalists. The subject of conversion to InDesign comes up often. Might be worth your while to join the list. The archive has not been updated for sometime but the list is quite active. There are the occasional life saving gems.

http://www.makingpages.org/pagemaker/

the other Gerald

Rytmi on abstrakti loputon,
mutta jos siihen liittyy melodia,
konkreettinen objekti pulpahtaa mieleesi.
Hassua, miten musiiki vaikuttaa...
Rummutus on eritt�in fyysist�,
hyvin eroottista niin ik��n, se her�tt�� kehosi...
vapauttaa aistisi...
ja voimakkaimmillaankin se voi rauhoittaa sinut,
her�tt�� sielusi...
se saa sinut yhteyteen sis�isimm�n olemuksesi kanssa...
ja se yhdist�� ihmisi� ehk� enemm�n kuin mik��n muu musiikin laji,
se on niin kuin perusvaisto, koska se on kehon ja sielun rytmi."

Gerald L, I notice that on the site you link, it says

"With the release of the PageMaker plugin pack, we can finally recommend InDesign for general purpose DTP work!"

The CS version seems to include the superior PageMaker features, and this pack helps the user switch.

I didn't find it a big deal to switch to earlier versions, though importing a design-heavy book from PageMaker to InDesign was not automatic, and did require a lot of new formatting labor. Then again, maybe the CS version is better. Has anyone tried the switch from PageMaker to InDesign CS?

Gerald,

Sorry to hear that you had import problems with your old PageMaker files on InDesign 1.5. This has not been a common problem as far as I've ever heard. I'd be curious to hear more about what Adobe source told you that your files were simply uneditable.

But in any case, that was years ago. InDesign is now several versions later, and the PM import stuff has been improved more than once. InDesign CS PageMaker edition has further improved PM import capabilities (including PM 6.0 files), and offers the familiar PM control bar, among other features.

Nobody's forcing you to change, of course. But InDesign is the successor to PageMaker, and offers massive improvements in typography. OpenType goodies aside, the paragraph composer, optical margin alignment (including hanging punctuation) and other refinements make it far and away the best option for fine typography on the computer.

I'll tell you what. If you send me one of your problem files, perhaps along with a PDF so I know what it's supposed to look like, I'll try converting it to ID CS and see if there are any troubles. One time offer, not available in stores.

Oh, and whoever told you that newer versions of InDesign don't open files from older versions was full of hooey. It is, however, the case that older versions can't open the newer files.

Of course, nobody is forcing you to upgrade. You can keep on using PageMaker on whatever OS you're running, and Type 1 fonts. Or use OpenType fonts, you just won't be able to use the extra bells and whistles.

Cheers,

T

I missed you guys too. :-/
But not enough to read everything in this thread - in fact I read very little of it, sorry. Between the people only interesting in celebrating the past and those auto-brainwashed not to see the decrepit faults of capitalism, there's entirely too much recycling and trench-digging going on. Screw Adobe's shareholders, and screw the poetic boats - let's see some better type.

--

I'm still waiting for people to spill the technical beans. Claims of past optical scaling in digital fonts on a briny floppy burried somewhere in the nothern winterland do not turn me on - the goods turn me on. Let's see people work on the future, for the good of society (not just their yaght-seeking shareholders) instead of always drinking toasts to their crusty past or their fat wallets. Please.

hhp

Hrant,

"Claims of past optical scaling in digital fonts on a briny floppy burried somewhere in the nothern winterland do not turn me on - the goods turn me on."

What a pervert.

���������������

". . . there's entirely too much recycling and trench-digging going on."

Excuse me. Recycling Type 3 Optical Scaling Technology sounds like dumpster diving to me. One gets a little sick of your nostagia after awhile.

Welcome home. I actually missed you.

Thomas,

I may take you up on that offer, thanks.

Alessandro

Rytmi on abstrakti loputon,
mutta jos siihen liittyy melodia,
konkreettinen objekti pulpahtaa mieleesi.
Hassua, miten musiiki vaikuttaa...
Rummutus on erittS<caron>in fyysistS<caron>,
hyvin eroottista niin ikS<caron>S<caron>n, se herS<caron>ttS<caron>S<caron> kehosi...
vapauttaa aistisi...
ja voimakkaimmillaankin se voi rauhoittaa sinut,
herS<caron>ttS<caron>S<caron> sielusi...
se saa sinut yhteyteen sisS<caron>isimmS<caron>n olemuksesi kanssa...
ja se yhdistS<caron>S<caron> ihmisiS<caron> ehkS<caron> enemmS<caron>n kuin mikS<caron>S<caron>n muu musiikin laji,
se on niin kuin perusvaisto, koska se on kehon ja sielun rytmi."

Yes, thank you.

And thank you,

So I'm nostalgic, and you're forward-looking? Right.
And Thomas is Nefertiti.

hhp

Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong;
And I am Marie of Roumania.

Hrant,

So I'm nostalgic, and you're forward-looking? Right.
And Thomas is Nefertiti.

Took you long enough.

Tom,

"Oh, life is a glorious cycle of song,
A medley of extemporanea;
And love is a thing that can never go wrong;
And I am Marie of Roumania."

Poetry is honey for Hrant's soul. In otherwords�duck. He will sting like a bee.

It is estimated that between one and two million people in the United States are severely allergic to stinging insect venom. Each year 90 to 100 deaths from sting reactions are reported, but many more deaths may be occurring, mistakenly diagnosed as heart attacks, sunstrokes or attributed to other causes. More people die each year from the effects of insect venom than from spider or snake bites.

Since perfume, hair spray, hair tonic, suntan lotion, aftershave lotions, heavy-scented shampoos, soaps and many other cosmetics attract insects, they should be avoided. Avoid shiny buckles and jewelry. Wear a hat and closed shoes (not sandals). Don't wear bright, colored, loose-fitting clothing, which may attract and trap insects. Flowery prints and black especially attract insects. To avoid stings, a beekeeper wears light-colored (white) clothing, preferably cotton (never wool).

Tom,

Can I borrow your hat net?

Gerald

Alessandro

Rytmi on abstrakti loputon,
mutta jos siihen liittyy melodia,
konkreettinen objekti pulpahtaa mieleesi.
Hassua, miten musiiki vaikuttaa...
Rummutus on erittS<caron>in fyysistS<caron>,
hyvin eroottista niin ikS<caron>S<caron>n, se herS<caron>ttS<caron>S<caron> kehosi...
vapauttaa aistisi...
ja voimakkaimmillaankin se voi rauhoittaa sinut,
herS<caron>ttS<caron>S<caron> sielusi...
se saa sinut yhteyteen sisS<caron>isimmS<caron>n olemuksesi kanssa...
ja se yhdistS<caron>S<caron> ihmisiS<caron> ehkS<caron> enemmS<caron>n kuin mikS<caron>S<caron>n muu musiikin laji,
se on niin kuin perusvaisto, koska se on kehon ja sielun rytmi."

My wife seems to think <caron> is a woman, I think it is an accent. However I can't speak Finnish and she can. So who is right?

By the way, duck�Hrant hates poets. In otherwords�duck. He will sting like a bee.

Don't wear wool. Read Tom's advice.

> Hrant hates poets.

And Gerald was at TypeCon.

hhp

Hrant,

I am a Finnish resident. We all wear wool socks. But I wished I was there. I have some things I would like to talk about. At the moment I am playing around with some OpenType issues.

But I am concerned that you may need Adobe, translate (be nice to Thomas). I will explain later. By the way, I have changed my mind about that tea you drink. It is very good. Presently it is all I am drinking. Any special brand?

Glad you like it.
This is a good source: http://www.marktwendell.com/

hhp

Hrant,

Thank you.

What do you think of OpenType? I am getting convinced.

Hello Mr. Gerald Giampa!
Well yep, I know a Karin from Trento,
a class mate on 1997, very nice piece of girl,
you know those girls with ct ligature, hum,
but that S<caron> is a dieresis 'a.'
Mina puhuan vahan Soumea. Moi moi,
AS