I think it's a great idea and would certainly encourage me to buy fonts from Village. It may initially cause them to lose potential profit, but I think in the long run, the goodwill that it indicates will ultimately increase profits.

Seems like a great idea to me.

I like the idea and a couple of years ago actually had a scenario with a client and a Village font where this would have been perfect. We wanted 1 weight to set type and show the client in order to get them to buy the whole family for a branding project. In the end we purchased the whole family but it would have been nice to go this route.

Sounds like a great idea for customers. But this seems like the biggest threat to the font industry since Apple decided it would be a good idea to give away fonts with web page downloads. Isn't the font business built on the principle of selling the same font to the same users over and over again?

When I talked to Teresa at FontShop concerning ordering parts of Clifford and then if I would get discounted when I purchase the whole entire thing– she told me no– they don’t do that.

So FontShop is off the list for me.

On the other hand, VLLG is excellent for that purpose. I plan on get the rest of Odile and starting in on National.

Mike Diaz

FontShop have never been on my list, and until they change their business model to something more realistic and receptive to real-world needs of font buyers, I don't have enuff good reasons for putting FontShop on my list.

Didn't one of Typophile's users recently describe Erik Spiekermann as "a stingy man" ? Yes, it was that Japanese person I can't recall the screen name of who said that, and he was branded as "mean-spirited" for having the temerity to say it. Surely FontShop's inflexible sales policy regarding font family purchases is mean-spirited?

Another reason they're not on my list has to do with FF Meta being no less homogenous or tyrannical than Helvetica. Same old Roman Army, different style. Meh!

@Sii: Sounds like a great idea for customers. But this seems like the biggest threat to the font industry since Apple decided it would be a good idea to give away fonts with web page downloads. Isn’t the font business built on the principle of selling the same font to the same users over and over again?

Yes, but with all respect, surely you are overstating the downside for vendors by way of exaggeration?

j a m e s

Isn’t the font business built on the principle of selling the same font to the same users over and over again?

Of course it is. Everybody knows that Adobe created Opentype so they could kill Type 1 and sell their forged fonts a second time around.

>Yes, but with all respect, surely you are overstating the downside for vendors by way of exaggeration?

True.

>Everybody knows that Adobe created Opentype

Not true. ;-)

Didn’t Fred Goudy once describe anyone who letterspaced lower-case as a... yes, what was it? Probably was branded as “mean-spirited” for having the temerity to say it as well.

Process is also a foundry that will apply the purchase of a few fonts to the later purchase of the entire family. I believe that Psyops has the same policy, IIRC.

Sharon

Rahim, your artfully capitalized thread title is provocative, but you don't seem to understand the simple retail principle at work here, Volume Discount.

The benefit for the seller is to make a larger, immediate sale.
The benefit for the purchaser is a reduced per-unit cost.

The fact that the "full set" contains what may be licensed separately is immaterial.
Where is the incentive if there is no disincentive?

The way it work is like this (and I use my most recent release, Beaufort Pro):

Single font: $59
Package of ten: $299 (unit price 29.90)
Buy two now, package later: $417 (unit price 41.70)

Isn't that still a deal?
And you're making out like I'm ripping people off?!
Do the math, get a life, make some money, and if you're offered a deal, don't go dissing whoever made it because they're not as "upgrade friendly" as your greedy heart desires.

**

Having said that, I can't deny that the Village offer makes a lot of sense.
Canada Type also has an interesting idea, with differential licence options for the same product.
And of course there are "get this font free, pay for the other family members later" offers, such as those from exljbris.
But the good old "family discount" is still a great deal for purchasers.

Nick,

I think you might be reading my comments and the comments of some of the other posters as one and the same comments, thinking that they and I are saying the exact same thing.

The purpose of my post was not to incite a riot, but to start a conversation. And like any conversation, some grievances and frustrations will be expressed by certain members of this forum. And we all need to listen to those.

I admire Village a lot, but that doesn't mean I hate and disrespect and am ready to demonize all the the other foundries. That way of thinking has proven to be a dead-end in all walks of life and all areas of human thought.

What I am asking is for everyone to "think about" alternative ways to price their product so that we can all "help" each other in these difficult economic times.

It's really important that we try to "talk with" each other, rather than "talk at" each other, so that some degree of mutual understanding might have a chance to take place.

Having said that, I understand the retail principle well enough. The question I'm posing is: if the Village offer makes "a lot of sense" to you, then surely some part of you understands that the retail principle cannot be the one-ring-to-rule-them-all approach to selling your product.

Let's keep the conversation going, without getting personal, defensive, and, yes, mean-spirited.

Rahim

Rahim, don't go lecturing me on behavior.
You are the one who started a thread named "Paying Twice For The Same Fonts", which is a provocative distortion.
I suppose that's one way to start a conversation :-)

I am sick to death of people picking on Adobe.

There I said it.

"You are the one who started a thread named “Paying Twice For The Same Fonts”, which is a provocative distortion."

Oh, please. Enough with the histrionics. Just because it doesn't fit your business model doesn't mean he's making a "provocative distortion." Rahim's original post was thoughtful, and not in any way an insult to the standard way of doing things for most businesses (type foundries, butchers, etc.). He was posing a question, plain and simple, and speaking from the consumer's point of view (you know, the people who keep you in business).

And no matter how you want to phrase it, you are indeed paying for the same font twice from many foundries if you buy one, and then come back and pay full price for the whole family. Yes, we understand that that's how it's generally done with fonts, and all sorts of other things. Yes, we understand that there are volume discounts when buying the whole family at once (which we all appreciate). And yes, we understand that the current system works quite well for many foundries and that doesn't make them evil. But Village's system is very attractive, and certainly in my case would encourage me to buy from them.

I would not expect to go to the hardware store, buy a quart of paint for $10, and then come back the next day and have them sell me 3/4 of a gallon at a discounted price (i.e. the price of a full gallon minus the $10 I paid for the quart).

But if they offered that, it would certainly be appealing to a lot of people who want to try out paint colors. I doubt anyone thinks that Home Depot is ripping them off because they don't offer that. And if I sent an e-mail to Home Depot suggesting they do that, I really doubt they'd use the phrase "greedy heart" in their response to me.

"And you’re making out like I’m ripping people off?!
Do the math, get a life, make some money, and if you’re offered a deal, don’t go dissing whoever made it because they’re not as “upgrade friendly” as your greedy heart desires."

I think it's safe to say that _that_ was mean-spirited.

You're right.
I apologize.
Sorry, the "times are tough, sell you fonts for less" approach does tend to get me worked up.

And no matter how you want to phrase it, you are indeed paying for the same font twice from many foundries if you buy one, and then come back and pay full price for the whole family.

And that's the essence of the family discount?
It only happens if you decide to split your purchase.

From the foundry/retailer perspective, there's overhead involved in administering a split-purchase refund.
It may be justified, if it results in a sale that otherwise might not have happened.

Overhead??? A few mouse clicks is hardly overhead.

Mikey, office work is more than "a few clicks".
First, a foundry/retailer would have to verify the original single font/fonts purchase, then work out how much has to be subtracted from the family fee. Then how is a non-standard amount paid? Shopping cart software is set up to handle fixed prices associated with specific product packages.
I'm sure the amount of customer service time involved would be worth the sale, but there are so many marketing services that can be added to a business, and I generally try to keep things simple. I figure a deep discount on family packages is practical, as might be offering the basic font in a family for free (no Paying Twice there!)--but this refund business just strikes me as unnecessarily complicated.
I'd rather by designing fonts (or arguing about it on Typophile) than implementing it.

I am sick to death of people picking on Adobe.

I certainly hope you realize that my post was not at all serious.

honestly shinn mate you really need to pull your head in somethimes. You come off as being a really rude prick---i would not buy your fonts after youre little outburst!!!

-----------------------
Chopper Reid says "Harden the **** up".

Sure, I put my foot in my mouth from time to time.
Which of my fonts have you bought in the past Murray?

i've used village and their taste test, and yes, it does influence me to buy from them. plus they were very helpful and friendly when i had questions (even sending me pre-release versions of a weight i needed).

@James Arboghast - i love meta and infact am going to be buying it soon (well my work is). It seems a bit extreme to me to stike a foundary/reseller off your list partly because they sell a font you don't like. does that mean you would not use myfonts because they sell helvetica?

@Nick Shinn - i agree the standard model is still a good deal for customers, and one day i will buy some of your fonts (saving right now for alphaville), but deals like the village taste test do make the standard model look like it's lacking. as a customer it's more tempting to use that reseller as they seems to give me the best deal.

>>>>Sure, I put my foot in my mouth from time to time.

you seem to have a mouth full of foot lately though.....

>>>>>>Which of my fonts have you bought in the past Murray?

none, i dont't really like any of them to be honest sorry mate. but if I was thinking about it, which i'm not, I would be really really put off by youre angry attitude to everyone.

-----------------------
Chopper Reid says "Harden the **** up".

Well that's no loss.
I enjoy a good argument on Typophile, helps me see what's what.
Looks like the Village model is a good idea then, might even adopt it, if Chester hasn't copyrighted it.

Hi.

The Taste Test has been Village policy since Day One. In fact, it was always our policy at Thirstype in Chicago too. It shows our clients the respect they show us by licensing our types. Similarly, all of our licensing is cumulative, so that clients can add to the number of computers they have covered without any unnecessary extra outlay.

Most of our policies were created to balance our needs with the needs of our clients. We run on the Golden Rule. Which is why we have our licensing tables clearly accessible from every typeface page, offer Supersets and smaller Essential/Basic sets, and don't make people create accounts to use our site. (V2 of the site will allow for clients to create accounts if they wish which will make it much easier for them (and us) to manage Taste Tests, upgrades, etc.)

It's really painless to manage Taste Test orders; it takes around 90 seconds to get into our e-commerce system, make the necessary adjustments, and send files to clients.

Nick, we have not copyrighted the idea at all, although we wouldn't be too thrilled to see another foundry with a "Taste Test". Any other name is fair game. Another company with a similar scheme is Apple, where you can "Complete My Album" at the iTunes Store.

Thanks to Rahim for the original post. It is interesting to read the discussion it has sparked.

Chester Jenkins
Village

You are the one who started a thread named “Paying Twice For The Same Fonts”, which is a provocative distortion.

C'mon Nick - you read newspapers, right? Good copy and editorial needs to utilize "provocative distortions" to capture attention. And it's perfect because it's true! Albeit part of the story.

Hey, you looked in this thread and the title even made you comment. With that I jump off the 'get Nick bandwagon'.

What's all this hating of FontShop too. I happen to think their online store one of the best put together in the market. They also have great support and good marketing through publishing great articles, blogs and emails. With the exception of Veer, where else can you browse and purchase such a diverse array of type on one site? Please don't say My Fonts...

oh and @MissTiffany - i agree.

Times are changing

I wish I could offer single->family upgrades through MyFonts. If they implemented it, I'd be on board.

@jayyy: What’s all this hating of FontShop too.

Without taking the word "hating" literally, I will make it clear that I don't dislike Fontshop. I just find their retailing policy unrealistic, and find many of their popular fonts like Meta, Freight and Micro no less homogeneous than tyrant types like Helvetica, just different in style but equally regimented. All I am doing is exercizing my freedom of choice.

Is that so unreasonable? I don't think so. And I don't think it's asking a lot to try to get typophiles to see that. One thing I dislike about the mainstream the way it encourages an, "If you're not with us you are against us" attitude. Just because I am not pro FontShop does that make me anti-FontShop?

Why does everything have to be viewed in black & white around here? The world is color blind.

j a m e s

Didn’t one of Typophile’s users recently describe Erik Spiekermann as “a stingy man” ?

Clueless as you are, surely this must be one of your more pointless efforts?

ƒ

Rahim, just curious -- did you ever get a discount on a record after you'd bought the single and it persuaded you to buy the full album? Or are you of the generation that only steals his music off the internet? ;^)

And do you also expect to get a font for one fifth of the price because it is licensed for five CPUs but you will only use it on your single home computer? :^P

BTW The "times are tough" argument is so ridiculous. Times are tough for type designers and vendors as well. They also have the right to make a decent living. Why is it that in every discussion like this type designers and vendors are branded as thieving bastards, and why does everyone feel they have the right to determine how much they are allowed to ask for their work? Is there anybody telling you how much you are allowed to charge your clients? Don't forget the price of type has continually decreased over the past decades and the quality these days is unbelievable, with the new OpenType format and whatnot.

Although I greatly admire their offerings I don't buy Enschedé fonts because they are out of my price range. But do I bitch and whine about this on Typophile? Do I have the presumption to tell them how much their fonts should cost? I appreciate Village's TasteTest police, but I don't diss other foundries because they chose not to offer this service. It's a free world, deal with it.

Now stop whining and do something constructive.

Font vendors like to keep things simple (if not totally "just") by selling either single fonts or packages, considering each purchase a "new" purchase. There are two good reasons for doing this: money and logistics. There are also good reasons to do it differently, if you take into account that a customer's goodwill has a certain value -- and if you have the programming skills to conceive a system that provides the logistics.
Luc(as) de Groot is one who has followed Rahin's logic, reckoning that a customer who is welcomed back by a company that remembers and rewards his or her earlier purchases comes back more happily. At LucasFonts, anyone who buys a font or several fonts from a family from which he/she has already bought fonts using the same login name, is eligible to receive a "font family rebate" even if months or years have gone by. It took LucasFonts' software developer Niels Poppe many hours to figure it out, but it works. It makes people like Rahin very happy.
BTW, LucasFonts.com has a new website.

@Bald Condensed - in regard to music, since iTunes have had the 'complete my album' option, yes i do buy a single, then buy the rest of the album. but you're right, in traditional music sales i would buy a single, then buy the album with the single on it, but it has always feels like a waste to double up. Which is why i now buy nearly all my music from iTunes, and for similar reasons will use font vendors who offer 'deals' that make is seem like i'm saving more money. it's not that the traditionla models are bad, it's just that the newer ones seem to offer better value, or at least less waste, whether it's true or not i don't know, but it seems that way, and lots of time that's a big deal.

i agree the 'times are tough' thing is silly as everybody is in the same boat.

(...) for similar reasons will use font vendors who offer ’deals’ that make it seem like I’m saving more money.

I haven't got any problem with your decision; my remarks have nothing to do with what you bring up. To each his/her own, it's up to you to decide where to buy your fonts. Your reasoning exemplifies the nature of free commerce in a competitive market -- if you don't like the policy of a certain vendor you spend your buck elsewhere.

I'm just reacting against the initial message in this thread. Frankly this whole thread seems like it's been started as a malignant effort to manipulate public opinion, and the whole basic premise is ridiculous. Let everyone decide for themselves how to run their business. And if they do it the wrong way the dynamics of the market will make sure they'll either have to adapt or go bankrupt.

Overhead??? A few mouse clicks is hardly overhead.

Mikey, you know I like you, but that must be the absolute dumbest remark I've heard in a long while. I even won't go into this. Let me just ask if you ever wondered how much time and budget went into designing, developing and coding the website where you do those "few mouse clicks", and how much it costs to constantly improve upon it, update it and keep it running smoothly? And what about the people on the other side of the line who are ready to reply to your every question and find solutions to your problems?

Didn’t one of Typophile’s users recently describe Erik Spiekermann as “a stingy man” ? Yes, it was that Japanese person I can’t recall the screen name of who said that, and he was branded as “mean-spirited” for having the temerity to say it. Surely FontShop’s inflexible sales policy regarding font family purchases is mean-spirited?

So one clueless nonce calls Erik a "stingy man" and this suddenly exemplifies both the man and the company he helped start up (BTW he hasn't been officially part of the organisation since quite a while). Who is being mean-spirited here?

When I talked to Teresa at FontShop concerning ordering parts of Clifford and then if I would get discounted when I purchase the whole entire thing– she told me no– they don’t do that.

So FontShop is off the list for me.

Mikey, I really resent this remark, especially since I'm part of their Research Team and we've spent considerable time looking up fonts, compiling extensive lists of options and offering alternatives to people who may very well never buy at FontShop for all I know. The sales and support people also are always forthcoming, but it's just that this is the FontShop sales policy, period.

When I started out the only option was to purchase the complete volume at one and a half times to twice the price fonts cost now. The situation has improved in such a way that over the past decades fonts became much cheaper and now you can purchase single fonts or have numerous configurations of font volumes to choose from. Some foundries don't even go through the trouble of offering single fonts. So what's the complaining all about?

BTW Mikey, so FontShop just is good enough to subscribe to their mailings and to get free stuff sent to you, but otherwise they are off the list for you? Seems like they are spending more money on you than you are on them. ;^)

James A.: Why does everything have to be viewed in black & white around here?

Well, ask yourself. Or how would you describe your policy of not even considering buying at a certain distributor because they offer some typefaces (by different foundries, mind!) that you don't like?

I'd say that's black and white thinking.

Perhaps a subscription model would be interesting for people who don't really need the fonts, but want to "collect" them as it were (that's how I read Mike's "I plan on get the rest of Odile and starting in on National.").

Receive a new weight every month until the family's complete and pay the discounted package price in monthly instalments :)

Yves

"The situation has improved in such a way that over the past decades fonts became much cheaper and now you can purchase single fonts or have numerous configurations of font volumes to choose from."

A very valid and telling statement. When I entered the field at a type house the prices for a font were outrageous by our standards, not to mention the machinery you would have to have had. Fast forward a couple of decades and I giggle at someone whining at paying 19.95 for a font, much less a couple of hundred dollars for the full family. Discount or no discount!

Flat out... type is a bargain!

Michael

I think that Spiekermann thread was just a wind up.

I’ll say that in world of FU phone-tree disinformation that every single font vendor I’ve worked with, from the big A down the line, has been been amazingly accommodating and totally available. How they price the fonts is up to them. As an independent designer, I can attest that having a system in place that minimizes the book keeping and clerical time is a must. So what if a smaller foundry doesn't follow every pricing trend. I need what they make, and I'm glad to have so many options for testing and experimentation, often in advance of a purchase.

...type is a bargain!

Right, the glyph sets we're putting in fonts these days are ridiculous.
The cost per glyph is miniscule.
Sure, people might not need all those foreign languages, and small caps in some weights may never get used, but they're there.

We appreciate all of the feedback on our sales policies.

Village's Taste Test program is indeed enticing from a customer perspective, and I wouldn't begrudge anybody who chooses to shop there because of it. But one thing to consider is that FontShop currently carries fonts from 66 foundries and growing, while Vllg carries 10; formulating a new sales policy with collaboration and unanimity amongst so many parties is quite a task. This is most likely why the standard among font resellers is a simpler model than Village's exception. And as has been mentioned, we feel that we do give back to our customers, and the community as a whole, in the form of such offerings as Font Magazine, FontBooklet, FontStruct.com, FontFeed, newsletters, etc.

That said, we certainly take customer opinion seriously, and we'll continue to have internal discussions regarding this particular point of sales policy. We'll keep the community posted if any changes are made down the road.

Ivan

FontShop Sales & Support

Some observations:

* I started this post to highlight what one foundry is doing that is appealing to those who of us that have limited budgets. I invite you to re-read my own words from the beginning.

* In my second post, I explicitly said that even though I admire Village for their "taste test" policy, it does not mean that I diss other foundries for not having a similar policy.

* I respect how FontShop, Veer, ShinnType, OurType, Type-Together, and so many others conduct their business. If they don't have a similar policy, it's not as helpful to me as Village's policy, but so be it. I still love their work and the amazing talent of the designers. I will still purchase fonts from them. Some other posters on this thread will not. Can you identify the difference between my approach and theirs?

* I did not use the "times are tough, lower your prices" argument. What I said was, in these difficult economic times, a policy like Village's Taste Test upgrade policy was appealing and friendly.

I'm not *telling* other foundries how to price their fonts. The whole thread started as a conversation about what type of purchasing and upgarding policy might be helpful to the limited-budget consumer. At no point have I wanted Village to "lower" its prices because I think their prices are too high. It's about the upgrading policy, not the prices. It's a subtle distinction but I hope it can be discerned.

* There's this idea that if you don't like my business policy, spend your money elsewhere. But don't try to have a conversation with me about it. Any such conversation can only be "a malignant effort to manipulate public opinion."

Well, no one is lining up outside your office with pitch forks and torches. This is a forum. This is a place to have conversations. It's not just about markets and money, it's also about ideas and conversations and exchanges and partnerships and the acknowledgment that we are all living in a mutually interdependent ecosystem.

Every new idea was once considered "a malignant effort to manipulate public opinion" and those who spearheaded these kinds of efforts were quickly given a hemlock latte with extra whip.

It is simply not helpful to tell us to "stop whining, get a life, get a job, etc": essentially, drink your hemlock and shut up.

No one is threatening you and your business and your right to earn a living. Please proceed as usual, and much success to you. Live and let live.

My original intent/suggestion was actually very simple:

Village's Taste Test policy, wonderful idea, wonder if other foundries already do something similar, wonder if it helps us make more purchases and helps them make more money and support their business efforts.

Wonder if we could create more win-win situations in the typeface purchasing world through ideas *like* this, not necessarily identical to this?

I sincerely hope I have been clear about my position.

Rahim

That's not exactly how I interpreted your original post, but it's possible that the content of some of the comments tainted my experience of this thread. Fair enough, point taken -- I apologize for giving the impression laying it in on you personally. I was reacting to a multitude of comments, some of which were quite mean-spirited and inflammatory in my opinion.

Just to be clear -- it's not "my" business and "my" right of living I'm defending: I don't design nor sell type, so nobody’s going to line up at "my" office anyway. I just happen to personally know a whole lot of people who exercise that profession, and I'm so fed up with the recurring attacks on how they choose to earn their livelihood. You just have the misfortune of having started one too many such a thread.

And can somebody please explain to me why nobody is picketing the offices of the movie companies because you don't get a refund when you buy a deluxe triple-disc DVD with all the trimmings when you already bought a VHS tape of that same movie years ago? Or a refund from the restaurant when you notice you're still hungry after eating your starters and you order an additional dish?

Nick

I checked with the owner of the typehouse I worked for in the early 80's. He said he remembered paying between 100 and 200 for each font for the typositor. Glad I am doing what I am doing when I am doing it.

Michael

Something else I'd like somebody to please explain to me; I'll give an example:

Let's say I first license Sansa Light. Turns out I need additional weights, so I purchase a license for the Sansa 1 volume. And demand a partial refund. But then I need even more weights, and I purchase a license for the Sansa Family. And demand a partial refund. My client branches out in Central Europe, so I need to purchase a license for Sansa Professional. And demand a partial refund. But then I want to diversify the design a bit, and I purchase a license for Sansa Soft. And demand a partial refund. At some point I need a serif face to match all of those, and I purchase a license for Sansa Slab. And demand a partial refund.

How the flying firetruck do you expect anyone to keep track of this unholy mess? It's fairly simple if you are a boutique type shop like Village and it's great that they offer this, but for a large font vendor this is a card-carrying logistic nightmare.

"Flying firetruck" FTW! I am so using that phrase!