Typophile

SuperUltraFabulous, I how do you think adults of the time felt during the hippie movement? look where they are now...

Times change, people mature, and there is nothing new under the sun. People are people and will always be the same way.

All im saying is i got my desired font and learnt my lesson.
But i think i can learn alot from this site, because im a font freak too.
Im sometimes wonder if its Normal when i see posters around and know the exact font of it.

paul d hunt

did you really learn a lesson though? i don't think a lesson is ever really learned unless it is translated into a course of action. maybe you'll learn the lesson next time...

1985

@ James Puckett

Well done for suggesting sensible alternatives!

Damn kids. GET OFF THE LAWN!

"a place where people probably count pilcrows instead of sheep"

As long as they don't shag sheep:-).

ChrisL

I wonder if Ulrich still would have learned his lesson had google not turned up what he was looking for.

Actually yea i did, i had found a free font that looked just like Neutraface,but i cam across this page on a font site where someone said their secret to find fonts free on google, and i decided to do it and found Neutraface on google, the complete set. I had learnt mylesson when i got the font that looked just like Neutraface font named(Fusi)but when i cam across the page i just decided to give the secret a try and it worked.

You know, I really want a Car. I mean, I can continue taking the bus here around town and it takes me everywhere I go, but I want to spice things up a little. I saw a car I wanted, but I didn't have enough money for it.

I could find somebody who has one and maybe they'd give it to me. But I tried that and it didn't work.

I found a car that somebody was giving away that looked almost like it, but that's not good enough for me.

I went to google and I found instructions on how to hotwire it, so I did! I learned my lesson today that stealing cars is wrong, but I went out and did it anyway.

Now that I know how to hotwire cars and have already shown that if I want one enough I can easily justify stealing it, I promise a group of strangers that I'll never do it again.

I think the point of you really having learned a lesson is that you would have found the font, and not taken it. Character isn't what you do when the spotlight is on you and everybody is watching, character is whether or not you do what you do when nobody can see you, and you're all alone.

^ this would make a really moving puppet show for VBS.

innovati i get your point. I still haven't learn my lesson, but at the end of the day i attained my font and satisfied. Sorry i didnt pay for it, if i had the money i would. thats all im saying.
Case closed.

"I saw a car I wanted, but I didn’t have enough money for it."

He's not stealing a car.

Yea, using unlicensed software is not nice, but let's not get carried away with our analogies.

true, the product may not be the same, but the attitude, mentality and decision making process is!

Don't graphic designers go through the same design process no matter what size of project they make?

I'm trying to dig past the object he's taking, and go deeper into what he thinks about it.

Would you be satisfied if you hadn't gotten the font, in the end?

Now that you have taken it, will you, as soon as you have the money, go ahead and pay the back, or simply keep what you have stolen and make no attempt at repaying them when money does come along?

I won't deny ever having pirated something, but I find it hard being one of the few in my college who pays for Adobe's wonderful software tying to explain to people that you get what you pay for. I'm a big fan of open-source software, free or shared licencing, creative-commons and I'd love to see everything under that licence, but some things cost money to make, and if i want to see them continue, I'm very happy to trade my money for somebody else's work. Car or typeface.

Case closed.

Yea...

William Berkson

I think what Ulrich22 doesn't get is that he is robbing another person, or rather other people, in this case Christian Schwartz and the folks at House Industries who market Neutraface. The font seems very abstract, but behind it are real people, who don't get paid for their work.

"I think what Ulrich22 doesn’t get is that he is robbing another person"

He's not. He's infringing upon someone's copyright. For his own use. Not for profit.

Yes, wrong. But a very different shade of gray than grand theft auto.

We've gone astray, though. Through this long crazy thread, I think we've lost sight of the real question: Why is 90210 using Neutraface?

Sye Robertson

:-D

fonts aren't like songs or movies, they are software.

Obtaining and using software outside of the license it's sold or released under, is theft, not copyright infringement.

cslem1

I don't think it's the act that it appalling, it's the fact that he came to a place full of type designers...people that actually live off of designing type (not just by the money, but the love of doing the job) and ask us to give him something that a fellow type designer(s) spent A LONG time and effort into doing. There should just be some acknowledgment that what is has done and will defiantly do in the future (regardless of what he claims)...is very very wrong. It's just a slap in the face, saying that saving up for a great font is not worth it if you can google search and find it.

courtney

Perhaps it is just the ease of getting things on the internet that is at fault but it seems a fair number of today's young people not only see no wrong-doing in getting pirated fonts but feel that they are entitalled to get them free just because they want to. Sometimes you have to earn something or earn the money to buy something. The "I am young so it is ok" rationalization just doesn't cut it.

ChrisL

It's fine to chastise someone for not respecting copyright law. It's a good thing. It should be done.

But when we get carried away with it ala the RIAA, then we're not really helping the cause and are only aggravating the situation. We become the grumpy old man yelling at the kids to get off the lawn.

Yea, that'll keep some of the kids off his lawn. It'll also likely get his house egged at some point.

It's incorrect to equate digital copyright infringement with a) property theft and b) pirating for profit (reselling) because it isn't the same as either of those.

It's akin to the anti-gay marriage folks trying to equate gay marriage with **** and polygamy. There is no correlation and only makes the person arguing that look more insane in the eyes of the opposition.

hahaha! Typophile doesn't like the term for 'human-animal intercourse', I guess.

Uh...er...not that I blame 'em! ;o)

Si_Daniels

>The “I am young so it is ok” rationalization just doesn’t cut it.

We should revisit this in ten years. How will Ulrich22 feel then about people downloading movies and what-not from the Web? By then he will have graduated from film school top of his class, and will be a few years into his new career - assuming of course that McDonalds hasn't completely automated the burger flipping process by then. ;-)

Who knows, maybe we will be stealing cows to make our own burgers.

William Berkson

Darryl, isn't the only difference here that intellectual property, rather than tangible property, is being stolen?

You seem to be saying we shouldn't chastise the thief because he might be peeved with us. I say, let him be peeved.

Futile efforts of any kind are not recommended, but that fact that good enforcement doesn't exist for a lot of digital property doesn't mean we should get confused about what is wrong, or the harm done.

I have a lot more sympathy from someone from a poor country violating copyright than I do for students in general, by the way.

"You seem to be saying we shouldn’t chastise the thief because he might be peeved with us"

Not at all. I specifically stated "It’s fine to chastise someone for not respecting copyright law."

"isn’t the only difference here"

That's more what I'm getting at. There are many, many differences. IP laws aren't black and white, nor are the harms done by various types of infringement.

When a group vilifies a certain group above and beyond their true crime, they risk being ignored as a whole. "Reefer Madness" didn't get taken as seriously as the producers had hoped. Suing grandma for downloading Brittney spears didn't garner the Record labels much respect. I'm just trying to make it clear that there's a line there somewhere when chastising jumps into 'crazy old cat lady' territory and people like Ulrich start rolling their eyes at us.

But saying, "That's OK, little Ulrich, at least you are not stealing cars." does not make it clear enough to Ulrich that he is supporting and encouraging criminal activity. Letting him off the hook morally encourages his behavior with a subtext of "it is ok to commit small crimes".

ChrisL

Kooldez

Omg! This topic's still alive?

"But saying, “That’s OK, little Ulrich, at least you are not stealing cars.”"

I think that on Typophile, people see this as black and white. You are either an evil pirate out to destroy the type designers life, or you are a hard working type designer who must put every person who has an illegal copy of a font in jail.

Now, to be fair, that makes sense in the context of what this place is...a place for type designers (which makes the OP's original request all the more ironic).

All I'm trying to do is bring some perspective into the picture. If you truly want to get through to these folks, we need to be pragmatic about it. He's *not* stealing a car, but what he's doing isn't right, either.

If this place were Mormonphile, I'd probably have a tough time convincing anyone that gay marriage is NOT the worst crime in human history.

You are talking about descrimination there, not the same.

At any rate, we could argue this till the cows come home and not agree. I am not saying that stealing fonts is as big a crime as stealing type. I am saying that it is a crime--perhaps more on the level of shoplifting. You do still go to jail for shoplifting though. This was my last post to this thread. Kooldez is right, we have run it far past what it was worth.

ChrisL

I hate it when the cows come home and don’t agree.

Listen guys
How am i the one who stole font?
I just was simply interested in NEutraface and searched google for it only to find out that its a pay font and while searching the through link is saw somebody had the file in their website index obviously they had bought it and uploaded it. (Link removed by moderation.)
I just simply came across in my search, and just clicked it and download it.
You guys just took this way out of proportion saying that i violating laws and metapohrically refering my situation to stealing a car.

This is how i will refer it to that.
"Somebody bought a car. They decided they probably werent interested in the car so they put the car on their yard saying its free for takes. I go up to yard ask for keys and drive off with car."

now tell me how that sounds? cuz thats all i did. did i steal the car? The person who owned the site where i got neutraface from knew that when its on a separate page anybody else can download it.
Im sure some of you will agree with me.
Even though i became aware that the car was free, picture this scenario
I was looking for a Ford Camaro. I saw one that was for sale for cash and another that the owner was just giving away for free. What do i do? Hmmmm?
Answer that.

Please edit that link out of your post. Thanks.

Tiffany Wardle

Just because you found the font through Google and some site (which will be getting an email shortly) posts it in a public way DOES NOT mean it is free to download.

Patricia Fabricant

Ulrich - it does seem that you still don't understand font copyrights. Everyone who uses the font has to license it. If I license Neutraface I am not allowed to just pass the font on to whoever I please, unless I transfer the license to them and stop using it myself. Whoever had the font on their site was breaking the law, and by downloading it so were you.

This thread has gotten a bit out of hand, but I do find it disturbing that you still don't see that what you did was wrong. Just because someone is offering a pirated font for free does NOT make it ok to download it.

>Im sure some of you will agree with me.

No, I don't think so. Maybe when you grow up you will understand.

Yes i understand it was wrong, but at the time i wasnt thinking about it. what do you want me to do about it? delete the font from my computer? will that make everything better.
The fact is i understand that was wrong what i did but i cant do anything about it. It was on the site and i downloaded it, its too late. and mistiffany, no purpose sending them an email cuz the site has been checked in a while.

case closed.

http://www.typophile.com/node/51522

I understand this situatuion distrubs and concerns most of you because you are typefacers, and i aplogoize and my apologies to the creators of the font and House Industries.

I'd like to learn about creating fonts and stuff so i wont have to download them unknowing they aren't free anymore.

guiyong

I search also this free fonts? Maybe my new post could have an amalgamation here?

Robert Farrelly

I'm going to try be very careful how I approach this thread as the topic is so heated. I really don't want an onslaught of hate towards myself.

I would say the majority of typophilers have used a pirated version of a typeface at one point or another. With the exception of a hardcore few of course. As a recent design graduate I can understand Ulrich's need and want for a typeface. I find very little harm in a student using a typeface for personal college projects, once they understand and appreciate the value of the typeface.

I would then encourage the student to pass on the enthusiasm & knowlegde for typography to his clients in the future. This is the point when a typeface should never be illegally used – when there will be profit made from it's use.

If type designers would like to encourage people to buy their fonts they should market accordingly. Lets face it, we're in a world of free music, free videos and free software. Just look at Museo for a prime example of how to promote a typeface in this modern era of piracy. Remember it's just like fishing.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, I just think it's smart to pick your battles.

Robbie.

Tiffany Wardle

The fountain isn't here nor can it bound found by starting here. But there are some foundries who have some fonts with free (or non-commercial) licenses and those are included in the FAQ Free Fonts in the Typowiki.

"You are talking about descrimination there, not the same."

I was referring to the context of the crowd I'm speaking too.

I also don't think we disagree. We're on the same side of the argument. We're just wearing slightly different shades of gray.

Jasonrobb

It's come to my attention that at least one person actually thinks I posted Neutraface to this thread. When indeed I did not!

For the record, the link I posted above, which was "removed by moderator" was in fact a renamed Century Gothic.

Perhaps a lame trick to play, but it was found humorous by at least one other person on this thread, Tom Hodgins.

If I've ruffled any feathers, or offended anyone, I am sincerely sorry. It was a mistake to JOKE about sharing fonts.

Clearly, I won't consider joking about such a serious offense on Typophile ever again. Pardon my immaturity. I'll check it at the door from now on.

Regards,

Jason Robb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Jason, I think you got cleaned in a general sweep, which may have included a link to download the font in question as well as whatever you had linked to. FWIW

Jasonrobb

Thanks, but I received an email from one of the House Industry boys, reprimanding my actions.

It was originally linked to Rick Roll'd. *Sigh* should have left it as such.

I feel weird saying this, but...Neutraface actually kind of works in that context. Odd.

Tiffany Wardle

Jason I can stand by what you said. I'll make sure they know who did what and where. I thought it was funny.

paul d hunt

The fact is i understand that was wrong what i did but i cant do anything about it.

this is what is wrong with America (and most likely the rest of the world) in general. people refuse to be responsible for their own actions: 'it was the circumstances that made me do it!' i find this a very poor excuse for bad behavior. (yes, it's not murder, but still bad behavior is just that: bad)

And clearly the remedy is understood because he mentions deleting the files.

Mike Diaz

Well, perhaps when he gets decent employment after his schooling he might decide to actually purchase the fonts.

cslem1

we can only hope.

courtney

Im glad we've all come to an agreement.
Any further comments before this thread is officially put to rest?

Typedog

90210 again, hollywood is really running out of Ideas. Well at least there is a African American in the mix. Back to the issue, don't compare font theft with car theft it is just plain ridiculous (230$ font 30,00$ car). The kid made a mistake he is only 14! with the introduction of the internet it is impossible to stop font theft and more important software piracy. At one point we all have committed this crime (font's and software) wether one likes to admitted it or not. When I was a student I had to use unauthorized copies of software, however once the money rolled in all of the unauthorized copies were traded in for the real deal.

Anymore comments anyone? Im sure some of you Typefacing Alumnis want to throw sumtin in my face.

paul d hunt

no, we're just bored of you and you now. go thy way and sin no more!

cheshiredave

@Ulrich: the horse has pretty much been beaten to a pulp, and I do think you've gotten the message. I will only add two notes:

1. This is more than a lesson about stealing fonts; it's a life lesson that sometimes you can't afford the things you want, and if you really want whatever those things are (typefaces, cars, elections), you should save up.

2. You're a young designer. And though Neutraface is indeed awesome, I recommend you spend more time getting to know the classics. For example, most likely you have Adobe Garamond Pro.* Of course it's very different, but it's just as elegant as Neutra in its own way. Become an expert with what you have, and you'll become a good enough designer that you'll be able to afford any typeface you desire.

*This is potentially a whole other can of worms, as everyone here has his or her favorite Garamond variation. But I've loved Adobe Garamond since way before it came bundled, so that's what I'm recommending.

- - - -

@Jason: The last time I saw this thread the link was the RickRoll, and I thought it was hilarious, even though I suspected that was where the link was going to go. You're right; you shoulda kept it there.

- - - -

And finally:

@Jupiterboy: "What color do you need it in?" FTW!

Somebody must have contacted the site where i got Neutraface from cuz it isnt up anymore

well at least i made backups

ChrisL

Zara Evens

Dude, Camden - you don't have any idea who you are dealing with. Of course your resource isn't distributing Neutra any longer. You said too much on Typophile! p0wned!

Alright team. You take his arms and legs and tie 'em together. Somebody get a blind-fold and some spray paint. I've got an IP address and USB key. WHere is Uli? We are going to need him to staple some documents to this kid's shirt and stick his head in the toilet.

ChrisL

Patricia Fabricant

Maybe we can get Furioustype to talk him to death.

Yea Yea
well if the closed down the page to bad, i have my copies backed up. i know i shouldnt have told you where i got it from.

Mike Diaz

Ulrich> We can talk about you forever if we like. We pay for our licenses. You don’t. You are not sorry. So stop checking in on this thread. Go play on myspace or something. Your membership to Typophile should deleted anyway.

mmm hmm sure whatever, the threads dead anyway. Im done. Thank you all for you comments and such.

Last word much?

I ♥
jupiterboy

heehee

After one year ago, I've returned! How are you guys!
P.S. still lovin' Neutraface

Sye Robertson

well, not quite a year...

Martin Silvertant

Although I find Ulrich absolutely annoying, I do think some of you are taking everything a bit too seriously. Of course copyrights are serious business, but I do wonder why piracy seems to affect you emotionally. Not that it's bad to have morals though... In a moment I will shed some light upon an other, deadly serious aspect of copyrights. I would also like to say in advance that you are likely to disagree with the things I'm going to say, or prove me wrong. And feel free to do so. I don't pretend to know everything, but I'm skeptical about the things I read in this topic, and which I've read many times before as well. So I have my own theories, and you might find it interesting to see it from my perspective.

I must admit I've never bought a typeface once in my life, for the simple fact that I have no or little money to spend (I'm a student without time for a job). However I do plan on buying all the typefaces I like slowly but surely, probably starting with Futura. As a student I think it's slightly justifiable to obtain typefaces illegally for the simple fact that although I do commercial work already, it doesn't provide me with a constant income yet. So I can perfectly understand Ulrich in that sense. However I am offended by the way he approached this community about this typeface, especially considering Neutraface isn't that expensive. He is a total moron, comes off as unintelligent, and on top of that seems to enjoy the attention, whether positive or negative.

I've read this whole thread and it has been both interesting and amusing (especially the comment "What color do you need it in?"), but you've all shed light on only one aspect of the copyrights, which is unlikely to affect Ulrich morally and intellectually. Certainly it's bad to go against the law, and certainly the designers should get payed for their work, although you're not going to convince me that those designers are poor. I get particularly annoyed when someone gives that argument about something of a larger scale, like Adobe or Microsoft products. They have a constant income of millions of dollars, so relatively speaking piracy doesn't seem so bad in that context. But I'm dwelling off. The other aspect of copyrights is that it protects you as a customer as well, and that's the aspect that Ulrich doesn't seem to realize yet. It's easy to say piracy is a bad thing, but you rarely hear about the consequences. As a full-fledged designer doing commercial work, you will protect yourself by purchasing typefaces. If one of the organizations find out you make use of illegal software or illegal typefaces (in my country there is an organization called BREIN whom actually does check commercial designers), you will risk getting a mighty fine as large as the price of a house. You will be paying that debt off for the duration of your career. If Ulrich wants to take that risk, by all means let him be. It doesn't affect you.

May I remind you that the creators of these products are not losing money due to piracy. Most of them are full-fledged designers with a constant income, and the selling of typefaces serves as extra income. If it would be their only income, their products would be a lot cheaper. It's true that a designer will invest a lot of time into the creation of a typeface, but let's compare it with the music industry. A band also invests a lot of time into creating their music, but their CD's aren't for sale for $50 or more, but for $20 or less. Also, the price of their CD doesn't depend on the quality or success of their music. A band like Muse can't ask $100 for a CD just because they're considered brilliant by many. The typefaces industry differs quite dramatically in that aspect, as the goal isn't to sell as many licenses as possible. The Enschedé Font Foundry for example comes off as elite, with font families between 2000 and 3000 euro. I absolutely love their typefaces, but I highly doubt there is a change in quality compared to Neutraface for example, so why is it 5 times more expensive (especially considering the fact that Neutraface consists of 71 fonts)?

Also keep in mind that although piracy is illegal (and should be), there's a big difference between stealing and copying. I'm tired of the comparison with stealing cars. If I could obtain a car by illegally copying it from an other car, and the initial car remains unaffected and still belongs to the original owner, I would be MUCH more likely to take the risk and go against the law. It might be unethical, but don't take it too seriously. And may I also remind you that in many cases, the copyright of a typeface doesn't belong to the initial designer, so it's not even certain they will see some or any of the money regenerated from selling licenses. It's the same with a band and a label. The band makes the music and the label gets most of the profit.

Unlike music, a typeface is a tool used to help make a product which is sold to make money. A music CD is the end product. The potential volume of sales for a music CD is in the billions, for type, it is only in the thousands. A graphic designer who buys the font can pass the cost of the type on to his client. The purchaser of the music CD has no way to recoup their outlay of funds.

ChrisL

Martin Silvertant

Absolutely true of course. However I do wonder if it's still in balance. A typeface like Trinité costs $4,846. There's something about it that I adore, but there are many things wrong with it as well. In use, the typeface looks unbalanced (which does give it a certain authentic letterpress quality though). There are some kerning problems, and it has no ligatures. I think that's a big issue, especially considering the high price. For such a price you would expect the typeface to be entirely complete. So pass the cost of the typeface on to your clients all you want; I still think the price is not always in balance in regard to the quality of the typeface. The concept of "as long as there are still people buying it, there's nothing wrong with the price" is very much present in the typeface industry, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it does explain why there's so much illegal obtaining of typefaces. The "absurdly" high prices of some typefaces merely serve as a marketing tool to create a sense of elitism.

Trinité perhaps costs $4,846 but this is an absurd amount compared to the typical font which costs between $20 and $50. If a graphic designer buys a font for $30 and uses it on only one job, he/she is still going to cover his costs even if it is a small job. If that same designer uses that same font again and again, he profits from it each time. I can still use fonts I purchased in 1986 and they cost much more back then!

ChrisL

1985

A music CD is the end product.
Not strictly true, at least in the UK. Bars, coaches etc have to buy licenses to play music in the UK.

Florian Hardwig

Hi Martin,

I don’t see your point.
In addition to what Bert wrote in an earlier thread:
Why should all typefaces cost the same? Different foundries aim at different markets. TEFF offers book typefaces and thus seem to focus on publishing houses. An approach that obviously has proved to be successful, as you can tell from the offerings of Dutch bookstores.
The ordinary freelance graphic designer just doesn’t belong to their target audience. Yes, you could call that elitism. Or conscious positioning. It also offers some protection – against overuse. And, to some degree, piracy: Someone who paid a four-digit amount for a type family is less likely to hand it on to some friend.

Trinité is famous for its ‘automatic ligatures’. Learn about this clever design principle in Dutch Type (p 161).

On a different note: While discussion and disputation is very welcome on Typophile, please try to refrain from ad hominem attacks. Calling a fellow discussant ‘a moron’ etc. crosses the line, imho. Thank you.

Martin Silvertant

My point was essentially that I can better understand why piracy is involved in the typeface industry than in other industries, particularly the music industry. While listening music is a luxury, typefaces are practical, so there's actual need for it, even though the customer base is smaller than in the music industry.

As for TEFF, I must have been blind. Everything about TEFF breathes "publishing houses" as their target audience, yet I never really realized it. Thank you for the clarification on that. As for Trinité's automatic ligatures, I had no idea about that either. I've used Trinité only once before, and that was for a sort of heading, which didn't require ligatures. However I noticed the absence of ligatures. Automatic ligatures is very clever. I didn't know about that principle, though as logical as it may be.

Ulrich comes to a typography community to try to obtain a certain typeface in an illegal way, and when he later finds the typeface for free elsewhere, he tells this community the source. Now I call that stupidity, and it annoys me very much. I think "moron" is an appropriate insult in this context, or would you be more comfortable with "silly goose"? I'm not here to insult or disrespect people, but he just crossed MY line.

Florian Hardwig

Alright, thanks for your reply, Martin.
I agree that typefaces are practical and there’s an actual need for them. But there’s no absolute need for Trinité (for everybody), is there? ;-)
Yes, I don't endorse Ulrich’s attitude either. Glad we have cleared this up.
F