With some tinkering.

Identical: no. A blatant rip-off: unquestionably. He does add an italic. But since the price is marked WAY down my guess is nobody's buying.

No one would dare clone Papyrus and risk "The Mummy's Curse" would they?

Derivative, but not identical. What I can't get, is why anyone would go through the trouble of creating something like that.
_____________________________________________
Personal Art and Design Portal of Ivan Gulkov
www.ivangdesign.com

Looking at that sample i notice that the «notches» on every letter seem to be in the same place…or am i wrong? The Artichoke sample is a little blurry, but it's pretty evident in the stem of «t». The «s» seems a dead giveaway too.

Kottis is right, if it was uniquely created, you would think the notches would at least be in different places.

And when I mean they are essentially the same face, I mean that Papyrus was plopped in an outline editor and out came Artichoke.

To Patty Fab... Bergsland refers to Artichoke as a strong seller.
http://bergsland.org/fonts2006-07.htm

Mikey :-(

What I can’t get, is why anyone would go through the trouble of creating something like that.

To make money, of course. Myfonts has many customers who are no professional designers. They can be fooled easily. And if you set the price low enoiugh, those fonts will sell.

Here is an overlay (with the change in weight removed):

I really wish MyFonts would check all new releases for rip-offs. There are enough experts out there, even among the MyFonts staff, who could spot these rip-offs easily.

It looks like they just squooshed Papyrus about ten percent and overtightened the sidebearings, then chopped the ascenders a bit.. It looks like the guy figured 15 minutes of work might gain him a few bucks for a while.

ChrisL

Well at least he acknowledges he ripped someone off. This is the selling copy: The roots of this font are obvious, but it is a radical reworking into a full 650 glyph OpenType Pro font design with many changes made to make it more readable, and easier to use in a standard text setting.

"standard text setting"

Huh? Yup, now it is a text face!

ChrisL

Naturally!
"It is designed for text use in body copy."
_____________________________________________
Personal Art and Design Portal of Ivan Gulkov
www.ivangdesign.com

Egad! Now Papyrus will never die. It's begun to spawn mutants!

Happy Halloween ;)

>Huh? Yup, now it is a text face!

Have you ever read a spa flyer? The "waxing" list alone often runs to two pages. ;-)

>it is a radical reworking into a full 650 glyph OpenType Pro font design with many changes

Exactly! Brazilian support is a must.

The “waxing” list alone often runs to two pages.

Wow, I just learned more about Simon’s private life than I ever wanted too…

Let me tell you about the horrors of papyrus.

My wife liked it, so she started growing it in the small pond in front of the house. But it won't survive North Carolina winters outdoors, so we have to move it into the house during the winter months. It lives in water, so we have one of the few houses in a colder climate with year-long mosquitoes. Indoors. Also, when a stalk falls over, the cats like to chew on the leaves. Then they throw up.

Charles, does this papyrus-growing mean you're thinking of going back to older publishing technologies? :)

>My wife liked it, so she started growing...

Maybe it was drying it and smoking it and then posting to typophile that was the bad idea? ;-)

For me the important question here is: should we judge Mr. Bergsland as harsh as the Gasoligne guys, for example? And should we bring in again the discussion about the originality of type designs?

Or maybe David himself would explain the similarities?

I would not judge this person as harshly as Gasoligne. This person made no attempt to hide the copying. Also, everyone on earth already has Papyrus due to bundling so no profits were siphoned away. I would perhaps question the logic in bothering to do it and assume this person is not in possession of sufficient business sense to be able to see the futility of his actions. He may have built it but nobody is coming.

ChrisL

Chris> No one professional at least, but I still think if you make even a dime off of stealing someone else's work the original designer should get a cut or all your profits.

Mikey :-)

I agree with you, Mikey.

ChrisL

Has anyone notified MyFonts?

MyFonts is good on their word when something is brought to their attention. but beyond that I don't think there is much attention given to the checking the originality of designs. I suspect there are a lot of fonts on the site that are of questionable origins.

I was looking at a font of Lettering Delights a while back on MyFonts and so I followed the links to the LD site. Turns out there were several recognizable fonts there including P22 Dearest, T26 Lassigue D'mato, and my own Shoebop (with Veer). When I emailed the company the web person removed them and the "CEO" emailed me saying he would comply with my request to remove them and look into the matter with their font guy. I don't know who was making fonts for them, but at $3 retail they definitely aren't labored over.

Stephen

In answer to the original question, the roots are obvious. My hope is that it is an example of the sincerest form of flattery. It comes from a fresh trace and it is modified quite a bit as an exercise in making a font I couldn't use into one that I now use all the time. Yes, it has sold some (a few dozen copies), but it is certainly no threat to Papyrus.

I'm releasing one next week that is a tracing of a printed page of Erasmus, one of Solo's old display fonts. It too is heavily modified (and it is only part of a new study on making a book font family I can actually use). I really like it and I am making it mine while tearing it apart to try and see why it is so attractive to me.

Here are some comments on why I did Artichoke:

1. Seeing how Chris did it.

2. Make a font I could actually use

3. Yes, I did spend a ridiculous amount of time on it. Well over a hundred hours, as I recall.

4. Yes, I am pleased with the result. I use the font often and I can not use Papyrus much as is is because it is missing too many crucial things for me: my normal OpenType set with small caps, lining, oldstyle and small cap figures, and so on

I hope it is not too offensive to you all. It is not a nefarious plot. Myfonts only approved it after they saw my original tracings. It is certainly not an attempt to make money on Chris. It will probably end up in a new display font eventually. Remember, I'm just an old graphic designer hack who is very surprised that his font designs actually sell.

Thanks for your time,
David Bergsland

Font designer, graphic designer, writer
http://bergsland.org
http://bergsland.blogspot.com/

They are both ulgy.

Quite true, Lucia, I agree. The trouble is, we have no right to prevent production of type designs we dislike. We do have a right to prevent taking someone's intellectual property (good or bad) and using it for profit--however meager that profit. I certainly hope Mr Bergsland requested and received permission from the original designer and foundry before beginning his tracing and copying. Perhaps Mr Bergsland would be better served to create truly original designs. He might then see that a mere 100 hours is nothing when it comes to type design.

ChrisL

>Perhaps Mr Bergsland would be better served to create truly original designs. He might then see that a mere 100 hours is nothing when it comes to type design.

Or vintage fonts that have not yet been digitized.

Reworking Papyrus certainly seems to me like an exercise in futility. I can't imagine why one would rework one of the world's most overused fonts in order to USE IT MORE. Yet, that's a personal choice, however strange. Profiting from it... seems a bit sleazy to me.

Is it double double indemnity when someone copies a horrible font, makes it worse, sells it, AND has poor taste?

It is kind of like stealing someone's farts, cloning them and then charging people to smell them :-)

ChrisL

Above, Mr. Bergsland claims Artichoke "has sold some (a few dozen copies)" whereas on his website he advises us: "Be sure to check out the releases of the past two years. They include the most popular fonts I've ever released— Brinar & Artichoke," and elsewhere there, Artichoke is termed "another strong seller" (all emphases mine).

A disconnect? Misleading, perhaps? Well, maybe not: If his "strong seller" has sold "a few dozen copies" only, perhaps the others are by comparison downright dormant. Deservedly so, if that's the case, for in casting a glance over his displayed wares one is hard pressed not to notice there's more than a mere whiff of familiarity to them all. "Derivative" alone won't cut it.

So much the worse for us all — not to mention easily gulled consumers.

ChrisL has it spot on: "Mr Bergsland would be better served to create truly original designs."

I do know that in an advanced typography course, one of our assignments were to take two fonts (that we did extensive research on for the first 3 months) and make a hybrid font. This of course was only an exercise, and was in no way meant for us to call this our own design. it was rather to see how letterforms were proportioned to one another, and to come out of it with a new product. This just sounds very similar, just this guy decided to see if he could sell his. But eh, it someone buys it, then they aren't worried about quality let alone design.

courtney

"their font guy"

I'm so glad to hear that MyFonts has at least one 'font guy' on staff. ;0)

@Bergsland:

In answer to the original question, the roots are obvious. My hope is that it is an example of the sincerest form of flattery.

Your hope is vain in the extreme. You are not fooling anybody here. What you hope people will see as "imitation" is in fact plagiarism, a knock-off, a rip-off of somebody else's typeface design. Call it what it is.

It comes from a fresh trace and it is modified quite a bit as an exercise in making a font I couldn’t use into one that I now use all the time.

Whether you steal a digital font's outlines directly by importing the font file into Fontlab, or whether you auto-trace a print of the same font, makes no difference to me. I won't claim to speak for how others here see the two methods, but I see both methods as theft and theft only.

Yes, it has sold some (a few dozen copies), but it is certainly no threat to Papyrus.

A paper-thin justification. That it isn't shooting up the starlets or best sellers charts does not justify your plagiarism.

I’m releasing one next week that is a tracing of a printed page of Erasmus, one of Solo’s old display fonts. It too is heavily modified (and it is only part of a new study on making a book font family I can actually use). I really like it and I am making it mine while tearing it apart to try and see why it is so attractive to me.

Your methods of font production are, at a minimum, very questionable. Certainly it cannot be deemed "typeface design". IHacking other people's fonts and calling the resulting violation your own is plagiarism. Your methods of font production amount to the kind of ass-clownery that gives our industry a bad name. I am stopping short of making an ad hominem personal attack on you David, an argument against you as a person. Instead I ridicule your working methods and pour icy cold water on your plagiarized fonts and lack of ethics.

I hope it is not too offensive to you all.

I am disgusted by it. Please remove your Artichoke font from the market and destoy all copies and work files.

It is not a nefarious plot. Myfonts only approved it after they saw my original tracings. It is certainly not an attempt to make money on Chris. It will probably end up in a new display font eventually. Remember, I’m just an old graphic designer hack who is very surprised that his font designs actually sell.

(much laughter!) As if saying that is supposed to redeem you or somehow appease your peers. I'm not moved, not even by a fraction of an em. Remove Artichoke from your website and remove it from Myfonts before several other font makers and I start lobbying John Collins and Laurnece Penney to have it removed from Myfonts for you.

Oh yes, I'll do it too (lobby Myfonts). You can put money of that.

@Darrel: I’m so glad to hear that MyFonts has at least one ’font guy’ on staff. ;0)

I guess you're joking at least a little there. For the record, Myfonts employ several very well-informed and experienced font people. Laurence Penney and John Collins are just two of them.

j a m e s

Personally, I don't understand why MyFonts allowed this. I don't think they should have.

David Bergsland: Shame on you.
MyFonts: Shame on you too.

I agree, Bill, I never understood that tracing thing. I can understand in a revival where you go back to a Letterpress printed page of a historic typeface. I don't understand it for a current face designed as digital. What is the point? Certainly, the quality of the outlines is quite bad so it is no improvement over the original. While I don't care for the original Papyrus, at least is is a competent drawing. This Artichoke thing is just crap. This is the kind of thing that can give MyFonts a bad name.

ChrisL

MyFonts follows the letter of the law. As long as there is no "point piracy", it's OK.
If they had to make judgement calls on derivative fonts, they would continually be in contentious situations.

I guess you are right, Nick. They would then need a fleet of "Lawyer Guys" and then could not afford a "Font Guy" :-)

ChrisL

"I agree, Bill, I never understood that tracing thing. I can understand in a revival where you go back to a Letterpress printed page of a historic typeface."

I have trouble seeing a clear line between the two.

It seems that if one just uses the term 'revival' to begin with, they can save some time fighting those that claim it to be theft.

Granted, in this case, if there were no permissions granted, I'd have to side with this being a lazy remake of a known, current, protected typeface.

But many many fonts have been created from doing just the same...tracing a classic instance of type found in the wild on a sign, in lead, on wood (in fact, I've created fonts that way), etc.

Perhaps that's where the line is drawn...copying a typeface that has already been made into a digital font leans towards theft. Copying a typeface found on a box in an antique store leans towards 'revival'.

Dez: It is kind of like stealing someone’s farts, cloning them and then charging people to smell them :-)

G R O S S !

Sorry, Fredrik, It was a weak moment. Perhaps not the right image for most folks to care to visualize :-)

ChrisL

I would be surprised if every toy shop owner individually tested each toy he or she puts up on sale. This is simply not feasible.

But please be assured that we at MyFonts always review cases immediately whenever there is a complaint (no matter whether the complaint came from the party who claims that their rights have been infringed, or from someone else). Our policy is to remove the font from sales temporarily until the issue is resolved.

However, when it comes to fresh digital versions of typeface designs that some people view as derivative (such as Adobe's Myriad, FontFont's City Street Type, Linotype's Basic Commercial, Monotype's Arial or quite a few faces from the Bitstream library), we employ industry standards, which, well, are not perfect.

I should also stress that in any case, the original rights owner always has the options to follow the conflict resolution path widely accepted in civilized countries, i.e. a court of law.

Best regards,
Adam Twardoch
MyFonts typographic consultant

Ps. Thanks to William Berkson for bringing this thread to our attention.

>a court of law.

That has some problems, as does the more popular "court of public opinion". It would be nice to have third court made up of industry leaders that could give disputed new designs an originality rating.

I'm thinking something modeled after this...

Who would be on the “Brethren Court” and who would be King?

"... and who would be King?"

David Berlow, of course — and that's even if we have to draft him!

>Myfonts only approved it after they saw my original tracings

Original tracings? I may not know much about the font industry but I can clearly say that tracing someone else's work is not very original or creative.

>100 hours

This is no time at all for a type designer.

>I’m just an old graphic designer hack who is very surprised that his font designs actually sell

As we all are.

Dezcom made me spit coffee all over my screen.

I just wanted to point out for the record here that Stephen's reference to the "font guy" thing was referring to Lettering Delights and not MyFonts!

> I followed the links to the LD site....
> When I emailed the company the web person removed them...
> ...and look into the matter with their font guy.

-ChrisL #2, MyFonts Webmaster in full defense mode ;)

After listening to Adams corporate boilerplate I kind of think Mr. Costello’s opinion should matter the most...

Shouldn’t Chris Costello be notified?

Mike Diaz

Mike: "Shouldn’t Chris Costello be notified?"

For my part, an e-mail's been sent. Add your voice independently if you wish. There's contact info on his website (the URL for which was mentioned in the original posting above).

This thread delivers.

This thread delivers.

Hi Guys… Chris Costello here,

Thanks for the emails. I suppose now is a good time to chime in.

This is not new. Check out my Rouge’s Gallery of Type Design Thieves:

Rip-off: Parchment “by Rick Mueller”
http://www.fontspace.com/rick-mueller/parchment-mf
100% counterfeit free font…why?

Rip-off: Fidelma, “Designed by Patricia Lillie”: http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/lillie/fidelma/
A complete bastardization of Papyrus that retains only wisps of the original feel.

Rip-off: Ereshkigal “Designed by David Nalle” and sold by Scriptorium http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/scriptorium/ereshkigal/
See below for more of David’s original work…

Original design by Chris Costello: Blackstone: http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/chriscostello/blackstone/
During my “Jagged Edge Period 1983-88” :)

Rip-off: Gaiseric, “Designed by David Nalle” and sold by Scriptorium http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/scriptorium/gaiseric/

Mr. David Bergsland has now earned himself a place of honor as the most recent member of this fellowship.

With the love/hate thing that swirls around Papyrus set aside, the font is still, without question, a completely unique and original design… there is nothing else like it in the world, except for these poorly executed fakes. I used no references, “tracings” or other crutches to create it… Papyrus simply came forth from a flurry of hand-drawn sketches (I still have the original doodles). As a professional illustrator and graphic designer, I really consider myself an amateur font designer. I do not have many fonts available for sale and I am just learning FontLab. It just so happens that the few fonts I have designed turned out to be hot sellers and are thus widely imitated. With the exception of Letterpress Text (a respectful tribute to the classics), every font that I have created is entirely original.

“Artichoke”? Please, David… I’m just not flattered anymore. This is an argument that has angered true type designers since the advent of the computer and the accessibility of font software to just about anybody. You obviously input Papyrus, moved a few points here, a few transformations there and output “Artichoke”. Papyrus, like any original font design, does not need to be improved… it is pretty much what the designer intended it to be and does not require the touch of an “old hack” “to make it more readable, and easier to use”. If you feel the need to customize it for your own use that’s fine, but repackaging it and selling it under a different name is cheap, opportunistic and wrong.

But it’s not the money issue that bothers me. I sold the rights to market Papyrus to ITC a long time ago and my royalty payments are modest. You are siphoning more of their revenue than mine, and I have informed them of your actions. What bothers me and many others is that you find this practice of “tracing”, “deriving” or otherwise copying other peoples work then passing it of as your own to be perfectly fine. Is this what you teach to your students? Do you address this subject in your books?

“Artichoke started with adding a roughened, light edge to the character widths of my popular humanist sans font families.”

Were you implying that you added the rough edges or are you giving me credit for the rough edges I created on the original?

“I was trying to create the light, airy feel of hand-scribed letters on a rough natural surface.”

Really? I’m sorry if I did I not do a good enough job creating the light, airy feel the first time around.

"I did spend a ridiculous amount of time on it. Well over a hundred hours, as I recall."

Why in the world would anyone spend this much time being redundant? Could the answer be found in the following quote:

“David started to design fonts for sale rather than for self entertainment.”

Somebody also mentioned earlier that 100 hours is nothing for a true type designer. Very true! I spent months handcrafting the original, and have spent countless hours digitizing my other hand-drawn fonts. You have done nothing here worthy of respect. There is not much I can do legally to stop you from what you are doing, but ethically speaking, you need to stop selling “Artichoke” and simply keep it for your own use.

I confronted the “designer” of “Fidelma” and she swore up and down it was not a rip-off. You cannot argue with someone who does not hold on to reason. I respectfully asked David Nalle to stop selling “Ereshkigal” and “Gaiseric” but got no reply. Sadly, this issue of stealing intellectual property speaks volumes about the “Something-for-Nothing” culture that has been cultivated by the Baby Boomers over the past three decades. As I segue into social commentary mode, check out this quote from a charged and very revealing article below:

“This generation lacks self control, morals, a work ethic, and savings ethic. Based on the recent actions of our government and corporate leaders, we seem to lack any ethics at all.”

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=16602

I’ll leave it at that. This is a font forum. My rants on pop culture, U.S. foreign policy, the economy and politics can be found elsewhere.

If you are going to call yourself a designer, then design… don’t simply imitate, then profit from the hard work of others.

Bravo, Chris Costello!

While I readily admit that I am not fond of your typeface I also fervently state that it is truly yours and should not be open to thieves and pirates to pretend is theirs. I hope that Bergsland willingly removes his atrocious pirated version from sale or distribution.
You are right, too many people think that because something is easy to steal that they somehow are granted license to do so.

ChrisL

Well said, Mr Costello.

Chris Costello thank you! I appreciate your sentiments.

While Papyrus may be over used. It is still original. If someone wanted to make a new spin off it why not consult the original designer? But no, Bergsland strident attitude did not make room for the high road.

Yes, ethic and morals have gone down the tubes. Unfortunately its not limited to the indies either- its even prevalent at the corporate level.

Fake:
http://www.linotype.com/304434/ginkgo-family.html

Real:
http://www.underware.nl/site2/index.php?id1=dolly&id2=roman

People that work with type and appreciate the real thing will never go for these fakes. Its really so sad for the forgers because their reputations get tarnish and then they have not a whole lot left over in the end. Sad for them.

Mike :-)

CAN’T WE JUST KEEP IT REAL?

I would like to inform you that MyFonts has removed the Artichoke font from sale, further steps pending. Thank you for bringing the matter to our attention and for your valuable input.

Regards,
Adam Twardoch
MyFonts typographic consultant

That's a solid step in the right direction. Let's hope MyFonts also takes into consideration Chris Costello's remarks on the other rip-offs of his work that are presently being sold through MyFonts. I think his comments should be construed as a clear complaint.

If not, why not consider this posting of mine a complaint? After all, Adam, you said it: "we at MyFonts always review cases immediately whenever there is a complaint (no matter whether the complaint came from the party who claims that their rights have been infringed, or from someone else)."

In my view, action on such obvious cases can only work to further enhance the standing of MyFonts among the broader community of designers / vendors.

Let's all hope for a quick, equitable resolution of this particular situation.

All seriousness aside, along with an indesign tutorial where he recommends vertically and horizontally scaling type because "otherwise the words will seem to disappear" (http://bergsland.org/pneumatika/indesigntutorials/1-indesign.html), does anyone not find this list of 'party supplies' to be a little bizarre?

http://bergsland.org/pneumatika/indesigntutorials/3-indesign.html

does anyone not find this list of ’party supplies’ to be a little bizarre?

Yup, I supposed even the US had adopted the Metric System by now :)

Well, not that it takes great effort, but someone sure knows how to party harder than me.

I am delighted to see this, Adam.

I hope this will be a continuing policy, and that it will mark some new professional standards on this issue of copying. Not law, but professional standards.

I do think that the cases you mentioned are arguably either quite different from this case, or are now moot.

First of all, with the consolidation of Monotype and Linotype, many of the most egregious copying cases, such as Arial and Helvetica, are now moot, as they have common ownership.

As to Bitstream, those faces were a product of the anarchy of the initial period of change to a new technology. As I understand it, the leader of the type division of Linotype was fired, and not allowed to digitize those faces, some of which he had directed development of. He and others founded Bitstream, the first digital typefoundry, and digitized what had been hot metal faces, most of them classics by long dead designers. Then Linotype did their own versions. And Bitstream is now giving proper credit, as I understand it.

I really don't think Myriad vs Frutiger is in the same class as these. Myriad is heavily indebted to Frutiger, but it is a systematically thought out new design, with new terminals and curves, a softer aesthetic, and new italics and condensed versions.

In any case, these issues were "litigated" in the court of public opinion before MyFonts came into existence, so it is understandable that MyFonts wouldn't take up these issues. And, of course, they are part of Bitstream.

The kind of copying and clumsy manipulation that this case represents really shouldn't get over the bar at MyFonts. I hope your decision here sets a policy that even if legal such clearly unethical practices won't be allowed to run rampant at what I suppose is the leading reseller of fonts.

>he recommends vertically and horizontally scaling type

That explains the bad job he's done condensing the proportions of Papyrus without looking at the stroke widths and contrast

Mike there are others fonts much more similar to Dolly than that.

Hi Tiff:

Really cause’ very little looks modified from the original Dolly. The upswung ear on the letter g looks reduced from Dolly’s bold. He changed the a and made a few other touches but its resounding Dolly.

What other faces are close to the Dolly than this Ginkgo?

Mikey :-)

Hi Chris, nice to get some sense of the guy who did Papyrus. Contrary to a lot of others I really like P — it is an original. Eight or nine years ago (somewhere during mayor relationship number 2) I designed an identity for a local restaurant with P. Never got paid, because they went back on the deal. But — I still see P a lot where I am, so if you would like to start a Hall of Fame on your site (or a Hall of Sh…) I would gladly take some pictures and mail them to you,

.. . .
Bert Vanderveen BNO

Tiff, there are a lot of Dollies around nowadays — it’s like those skinny jeans. One brands ignites a lot of others. And presto: you get to look at a lot of slightly overweight bare mids. Or worse (I try avoid my eyes and have seen a lot of sky the last couple of years). Thank Obama, my GF has a good sense of fashion. she prefers highwaisted jeans. BTW he is a brilliant photographer.

. . .
Bert Vanderveen BNO

Dederon what else?

For those who might not have noticed, not only is "Artichoke" now removed from MyFonts and Fonts.com, but also Mr. Bergsland has removed it from his site. Positive stuff all ... if it's not mere interim measures or a tactical eyewash. Watch and pray, as it were.

Thanks Adam and thank you solfeggio for the report. Much appreciated.

I think David Bergsland has a conscience and we should extend to him the kind of respect and good will we would expect to be extended to ourselves. I call upon typophilers to show restraint in the following ways:
* stop hammering David now, this one is over
* give David a second chance, so to speak
* stop calling him "Mr. Bergsland" because it's a trite form of put-down. He has a name you know: David.

David, if you're still reading please rest assured I bear no on-going animosity towards you. You've done the right thing by us your peers, and I thank you for cooperating and listening to reason.

Bert, and typophilers in general—"Tiff" likes to be called "Tiffany", thank you.

j a m e s

Minor obiter: stop calling him “Mr. Bergsland” because it’s a trite form of put-down. It was never intended as as such on my part. Instead, it's merely a matter of being polite. To be clear, consider the evenhandedness: in private correspondence I have addressed Mr. Costello as "Mr. Costello," not as "Chris," even though I doubt he'd mind the informality.

Some folks regard the overly-casual use of first names as a status leveler, while others do not view it so. Similarly, "Mr." as an honorific oughn't be read mal fide as snide.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, after all, though other times they're loaded. ;)

Best regards,
Ernie
(by which name you may all freely call me)

I'm not trying to start a hunt for Dolly look-a-likes. I'm simply saying the design of Dolly is very good and it doesn't surprise me that there aren't more homages. (And derivatives.)

Tiffany> alrighty then

Well, I’m glad I posted this thread. We all need correction sometimes in our life. I’m pretty sure David has learned his lesson (albeit in a public forum). Copying someone else’s work can only lead to embarrassment, even dishonor.

I look forward to original productions of his. David can only get better as a designer from this point.

Like James said, this is over.

I thank everyone for their participation and keeping their comments above-board.

Mike Diaz :-)

I’m not trying to start a hunt for Dolly look-a-likes.

This funny, i'll tell you why in another thread.

>Like James said, this is over.

Don't jinx the thread! When people say that things tend to spin up to the low 200's.