A few questions/thoughts that might help get the ball rolling:

1. Everyone loves Gotham, and so do I. I'd like to keep the typeface for my name pretty neutral (probably a geometric sans). Do you think there's a better alternative? Is overuse of a typeface a reason to reconsider using it?

2. What do you think about the size of the mark in relation to the type? Currently, the weight of the type is equivalent to the weight of the M's serifs.

3. Kerning good?

First off, I like your mark very much and have since you started using it as your avatar.
Secondly, I wouldn't be too concerned about Gotham being overused - if you feel it fits, stick with it.
2 suggestions:
- maybe try a different placement for your name, it doesn't seem to glue right now.
- Have you tried using a lower case 'c' in your name?

/ Seb

1. Perhaps I shouldn't comment because I dislike Gotham greatly. Geometric sans are plain ugly to my eyes. I would stay with a sans face, but one with a bit more life and movement in it for my taste.
2. I think the mark is too large, however I don't know what you are trying to achieve and so I can only make comments based on my own prejudices & personal preference. I believe there should be a bit more of a contrast between the two elements. Both are strong and dark and the overall feel is heavy - not that this a mad thing, it could be what you want.
3. Letter spacing is fine.

I would suggest a couple of tweaks:
Line up the mid point of the cap height in the name with the centre of the circle in the 'r'.
Then move the name much closer to the 'rM' mark, leave less than half the space you have now.
Kerning-wise, maybe the space between R and T in robert needs tightening just a bit.
Lower case 'c' definitely worth a try.

DK

What about running your name underneath? And as Graham suggests, play with the size of your name until there is some contrast. As I stated in your other thread I really like the mark.

Michael

I really like the mark too, but I'm not superhot on the type (and I do like Gotham in general). as typerror just mentioned, I was going to suggest running the name underneath the mark as well.

Have you tried it with the serifs on the mark thinner? Something about them being that thick bothers me.

I really like the mark as a whole though.

penn

Thanks for all your comments.

@seb: What's the protocol for McK names? Is there a hard and fast rule?

@Graham: For me at least, the difference in styles between the mark and type is enough contrast (a rich, curvy Bodoni vs. a simple geometric sans). I also like the fact that there is something to tie the two together (the weight of the type and the weight of the mark's serifs).

@David: I will definitely try that alignment. Sounds like it will work. I'll also look at tightening up the RT.

@typerror: Ideally, I'd like to have both a vertical and horizontal version of the logo, so I will be looking into both.

@chris: What about the type turns you off? Any suggestions?

@penn: I see these really black Bodonis with super skinny serifs all over the place. I would also worry about having the logo fall apart at small sizes if I were to thin out the serifs. I'll give it a try, though.

I'll post the results of the revisions. Thanks again to everyone who has helped out so far.

I just posted the revisions up above, in the first post.

I like the top version with the name underneath, the name with a lower case 'c' works nicely for me too.
Maybe the mark needs to be nudged to the left slightly?

Still not crazy about alignment of the name in the bottom version; have you tried aligning the baselines?
Think it could work well.

Some new options posted. Thoughts?

It makes it extremely hard to follow the thread if you remove the original pictures.

"It makes it extremely hard to follow the thread if you remove the original pictures."

The old ones aren't being removed, he's simply adding the new revisions as attachments as the top. the first attachment up there is the original, 2nd one is the 2nd, etc...

My favorites are the first of the second upload and the third of the third upload.

penn

I recall the day this thread appeared, and it had three attachments. Comments followed. Now, there are still three attachments.

But my point really is this - why NOT embed the new designs in the new post?

Nothing has been removed. There was one attachment to start with; now there are three.

These are the two latest--the same ones attached above.

The top over/under may be mechanically centered but to me, as Sebastian said, the rM could go to the left a bit.

Just for grins, have you tried reducing the caps until they match the weight of the serifs... a subtle continuity/contrast may appear. I always try and create this kind of relationship when using type and lettering together.

Also, what about a sort of stair step. Dropping the name to below the serif of the M, and running to the right. That way you still have your horizontal but it is below... and maybe even extending the serif to run over the top of the name.

Just quick thoughts Michael

"Just for grins, have you tried reducing the caps until they match the weight of the serifs"

Not sure I understand. That's what I've done already.

Hate to be a party pooper here, but I'm going to do it anyway.

I don't see any reason to use Gotham with that good-looking mark. Is it an attempt to complement with little contrast? Well, you've got conflict in extra bold versus light, conflict in sans versus serif, conflict in italic versus roman, conflict in upper/lower versus all uppercase. Frankly, the name just doesn't look at all like it belongs with the mark. I'd like to see you switch out the Gotham for something a little less conflicting.

What I was saying was reduce the Robert McKenna until the stroke weight matches the weight of the serifs in the rM. It may not work but I thought it was worth a try. If you have already done it my screen is playing tricks on me.

Michael

Mr Koppa
I view contrast a good thing. They play off of each other, set each other off, relate to each other and ultimately work as a unit as a result of their disparity.

Carl Dair wrote of this and I have successfully used this design device for over two decades.

It is as natural as fire and ice, black and white, yin and yang, Mutt and Jeff!

Michael

> I view contrast a good thing

I've got no problem with contrast. However, in this case, it's too much for me. There's absolutely no relationship between the two, and that doesn't work for me. Seems like the unsolvable problem here is finding a way to get the two elements to come together as one. Could it be that they're repelling each other, for all or some of the reasons I mentioned above?

But, alas, I am not the authority, and surely there's some subjectivity in every critique.

I can't be the only person here with this opinion. Am I?

I apologize for making "double post"

I find your logo not so very exciting. You should maybe make dramatic effect in Photoshop for give more impact. After spend just a short period I have achieved this. You will maybe try even harder.

Gui

*looking at picture above . . .

. . . Oh God.

Why isn't the green "Robert McKenna" embossed too? I think you should've also used a stained glass filter.

penn

I find with emboss "Robert McKenna" will not be able to read. This is important. With plastic wrap filter glass filter will not work. I only spend 6 minutes, Robert will make more work with this I'm certain.

I'm having a hard time deciding if guiyong's post is a joke or not. I hope it is.

The mark is beautiful and actually looking through all the revisions you've made, I like the very first lockup version the best. Although, I can see that there are problems with the alignment and compatibility the two elements.

Have you considered that maybe the mark doesn't ever need to have your name next to it? It's strong on it's own. I think you could work it out so your name never has to be part of the logo. Your letterhead, for example, could have the mark in one corner and your name with contact info along the bottom or in another corner. That will make your mark into a beautiful icon that needs no explanation. (I mean icon in the "iconic" sense, not as in something you would click on your computer)

Also, Gotham is a really wonderful typeface to use in your identity, but I think it would be beneficial if you experimented with others to see what happens.

Analisa

Gui...jeez. I liked it better before you got your hands on it. Unless you're insanely funny. Then I like yours better.

Mr. Koppa

Do not get me wrong. You are not wrong. We are coming at this from different points of view with like minds. I am just trying to push, as are others, in other directions to get him to understand these very relationships. Finally Analisa made the point above that I made in the first thread, does he even need the modifier handcuffed to the mark!

Discovery will happen and then we can meet for beers at your place in Wisconsin, and sow some seeds of dis/content on the hillside!

OK Mike?
Michael

Mr. Typerror you talk many shit. "Handcuffs" and "planing seeds on hillside" what are you talking about? I find you very strange.

Whoa, Mr. Yong! Take 'er easy, 'eh? I think what we've got here is a communication breakdown...that and the aesthetic you have shared is rather shocking to us in the West. But if it works in Tokyo, let 'er rip!

Mr. Clark, I like your offer. Beer on the hillside sounds terrific. Although Virginia does intrigue me as well...somewhere down the road I know there's a Shennendoah camping trip happening for me and the fam.

But back to business...yes, push to understand relationships...

Mr. Clashmore...would you humor us with a look at a little less clash? How about looking at Gotham italic... you might have to force the angle on it a bit if it doesn't match the mark, but I'm curious to see what it looks like.

What I'm seeing in your mark is bold, fast-paced, adventurous design. Then I get to your name and I see you slammed on the brakes, turned off the car, and became very serious about being as uninteresting as possible.

I'd suggest learning a little more English before posting again guiyong. Try Rosettastone.com

penn

Guiyong... if you think I made negative posts toward you then you need to go back and read. As to my posts, Mr Koppa and I were having a nice conversation. I was trying to arrange my vacation for next spring ; )

Sorry you took umbrage to my remarks to Mr Koppa. That would be, I am full of "much crap" and my wife would agree with you!

Michael

Penn I find your last comment to be insulting and downright condescending. I responded to your previous comment with the utmost respect and this is what you write back? If you had taken the time to check you would have found my name is actually Gui instead of simply copying my username. I think you should take some etiquette lessons before making your next post, you will find them here at www.myass!

What's the old country song "Thank God and Greyhound..."

Michael

guiyong is an excellent and somewhat humorous troll...the question is if it is intentional or not. ;0)

lol

penn

Noooooo. You thought that too? Caricatures are fairly easy to spot. At least he really knows how to use Photoshop ; )

Amazing how his syntax and spelling certainly improved the "angrier" he/she got!

Michael

Penn, what is lol? I will fight you, have no no illusions. I am strong!

"Amazing how his syntax and spelling certainly improved the 'angrier' he/she got!"

indeed.

For more photoshop fun, check out yong's latest submission to the new typophile logo thread.

penn

I see you can spot easily my talent, photshop skills, type styles etc. But for aggressive post I must resort to room mate Dominique Hernandez who is PhD college student in online English course at RosettaStone.com

Hilarious, guiyong.

And I actually like Analisa's idea. I'd thought of looking into that before, and that comment makes me think it's worth taking another look. It would certainly make my life a little easier.

I'm still going to try to finish this one up, though. More comps in the offing...

I have already explain my name is Gui, guiyong is my username. Please maintain polite posts.

Haha, okay Gui.

Hey Gui,

I really liked your logo treatment, but to me it felt a bit empty (bland?). I reckon you should give it a bit more zing to make it really pop. Do you know what I mean? For example, I noticed that you've really only used two tones: purple and green, maybe you should try to get a bit more colour in there; more warm colours and maybe all of the cold ones as well.

Hello Nicholas,

Today I encounter critical malfunction with Photoshop due to extreme filters I use. I search solution for problem but now you must show me more warm colours in logo and extravagant Photoshop filters. (Photoshop Effect Plugins Package Delux Edition.

I tink tis twead hyjakd by somting gooy.

oops dubl post.

use the same baseline as the rM for your name. I think that'll work. watch the weight of your type as well... It feels like your competing between the logo and your name. if you can go lighter, explore that route.

daniel

I just used Calibri there as a filler...I'm really pointing out what you should do to the actual mark.

Peace,
JT