Some of their faces look dated, but they don't even have all the ones they originally started with (i think one was Berkley). They're constantly reinventing their typefaces (Matrix II) because I think they realize this. Licko, Keedy, etc. were some of the first good type designers on the digital platform, and thusly did a lot of experimentation. So I think their type shows a sort of progression through the late 80s to now. I guess my answer is yes, some do look dated, but I would count on them constantly updating and adding new, more contemporary faces. I wouldn't be surprised to look back at any foundry's work ten years from now and think the same thing. I still personally enjoy the italics for triplex as well as the caps. Those curves on the stems of the lowercase really bug me though.

I remember seeing Citizen on the cover for the movie Black Hawk Down.

I recently purchased Matrix II Book to use in a contest entry that never got submitted because I got busy with other stuff. I’ll probably end up using it at some point, but very carefully, because any time I see it lately it’s on some low-budget ad or sign and looks dreadfully awful.

As for the 1990s fonts, I wouldn’t go anywhere near them. Sometimes I use the Brody stuff from that era, but the wacky Emigre types are just horrid. Like the magazine they did a great job of inspiring importan discourse about typography, but like the magazine, no sane person wants to try reading them today.

oh man, are you saying that that emigre fonts are horrid and at the same time using fonts like brody? :)

Everything that is old will be new again. The 80s are totally hot right now. Just wait a little bit.

I still have use for a few of the less eccentric Emigre fonts. I licensed the entire library back in the 90s and then licensed some of the newer stuff after that. Many of there fonts are still usable. Those listed are the more eccentric though.

You're right Miss Tiffany!
"What goes around, comes around kid"
A 90's revival is waiting in line. Be sure that after this neon nu rave trend is gone, it will take it's place. Techy—decon here we go again. :P

@Andrius: It’s a style thing. The Brody fonts have a really warm futurist feeling. The Emigre fonts have more of a dirty anarchic feeling that reminds me of all those awful bands from the 1990s who couldn’t stop whining about how much it sucked to be white, male, and middle-class. I wasn’t a design then, and don’t really want to revisit the era.

Being stuck in the 80s / 90s is at least two decades ahead of where graphic design currently is, based on best selling fonts... http://www.linotype.com/37/fontcharts.html

@James: Emigre fonts don't strike me as dirty. In fact, I don't really associate many of their fonts with the grunge movement at all. Really?

@James: I think its more an attitude than a style thing, maybe that dirty anarchistic feeling which You see in emigre fonts is an attitude formed by all those awful bands from 90s? Brody typefaces is maybe good, but emigre fonts i think is much better - distinctive style, content, meaning, phylosophy those are things because of which these faces is so good, and using these fonts is another thing. And feeling is just a feeling its a thing superficial, warm futuristic feeling today, will be weak outdated feeling tomorow its all influence of context. dont agree?

Well according to me, here are emigre's fonts I wouldn't want to use for looking really outdated:

Apollo
Arbitrary
Backspacer
Base 9 and 12
Base Monospace
Citizen
Council
Dalliance
Dead History
Democratica
Dogma
Eidetic
Elliott's
Exocet
Journal
Keedy
Lo-Res
Los Feliz
Lunatix
Matrix II
Matrix II Display
Missionary
Modula
Modula Round
Motion
Narly
NotCaslon
Oblong
Ottomat
OutWest
Platelet
Poppi
Priori
Remedy
Senator
Soda Script
Suburban
Tall Pack
Template Gothic
Thingbat
Totally Gothic
Variex

though I licensed and used many of these in the past.

that leaves about 10 fonts... not much.

dr

Phew! You didn't mention Tarzana there David, so that lets Feminist Review off the hook then...
:-D
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Ever since I chose to block pop-ups, my toaster's stopped working.

well, tarzana is still usable i guess... no?

dr

By the way, I could also have named all the oversized x-heights fonts from ITC... pretty hard to use today as well, thanks to george lois and his total control of the american ads in the 1970's.

dr

@DavidR: Yes, but not the prettiest of faces for running text (example).

I'm keeping my ears to the ground for the first hint that my publishing colleagues might consider a redesign, ready to pounce with some better suggestions...
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Ever since I chose to block pop-ups, my toaster's stopped working.

I still use some of the Emigre fonts - Filosofia, Mrs. Eaves, Tribute, Dalliance, Base, Eidetic

Matrix still feels way too 90s (and I never liked it much to begin with) and some of the Emigre fonts are just too out there to imagine actually using ever such as Variex and Citizen.

I have not licensed any of their fonts in awhile tho. Considered Vista and Malaga but don't like the squared off lc 'a'.

@David:

Au Bon Pain uses Dalliance effectively, I've seen missionary used quite well in fashion magazines, and I think I'd have to outright disagree on Matrix II, Los Feliz, Eidetic, Council, and especially Priori (although Barnbrook's work can be equally hit or miss). I also don't mind the caps for Ottomat, but that's pushing it. I don't think Poppi even qualifies, I think it looks rather modern myself.

There is a case to be made for a lot of the others; remedy looks like the paying man's Party LET. Most of the ones that you and I agree on were made more than ten years ago.

Once again though, Filosofia, Mrs Eaves, Tarzana, Vista, &c seem to be their recent breadwinners, so I'd count on Emigre producing those more-so than something like lunatix. I feel as if Emigre has done well recently distancing themselves from trendy/fad-y themes.

Cholla was turn-of-the-century Emigre, but I think it (still) looks fantastic. Especially the slab ultra bold.

I also just used Solex quite effectively for a project.

And there is a book on my table right here (not designed by me) that manages to use Not Caslon - and well. I never thought I'd see that.

Dalliance has unfortunately become the go to font for middle eastern/asian themed books. I used it for a logo for some Indian sauces when it was still new, but now it looks like I'm a copycat.

I think the Vista series and Malaga are plenty fine.

In certain circs Vendetta shows well, and I still have a warm feeling towards Journal.

Moreover, I think Brothers is going to last and last. Which isn't surprising given its designer and his inspiration which was a solid historical style.

Like every other foundry with a strong profile, you just have to pick and choose, and let them worry about their own shelf life. Cholla, Filosofia, Malaga, and Vendetta (tho it looks so small) all work well, stylish and just timeless enough. And, I should add, they're still gently priced. Storm Foundry's historical revivals also have eccentricities that require discrimination and care. And the point above about all those high-x-height ITC faces from the 70s, originally intended for advertising instead of regular editorial use--that's true too. You just have to pick and choose.

@Tiffany: Sorry, I need to stop posting before the coffee kicks in. It’s not that I associate some Emigres type directly with grunge so much as I just see them as important elements of 1990s culture that I don’t really miss. Like Nirvana, they’re important and shouldn’t be forgotten, but they served their purpose and I think it’s time to move on.

Ehague,

I just wanted to praise Cholla as a very usable font. Of course, only in moderation, but here and there _very_ usable. Just listened to a talk by the designer of it a week ago or so.

Szabolcs

Sometimes something seemingly inappropriate can really work if used appropriately. Yes, quite a few of their fonts scream 90s to those of us who lived it. But, on the other hand, if you take away what we know about the typeface and try to see it with fresh eyes many of them are still useful.

I have to agree with Tiff. In some cases how you use a type can matter almost as much as the design of the type. Depending on what you are making. That isn't true for every application. Also, this kind of use is a high level skill I think. Not every designer can do it.

"There are only two kinds of typefaces: those you know how to use and those you do not"

—K

Kris, you don't buy the idea that somebody can find fresh new ways of using a classic ( or not classic) face? I am not saying this is what you comment implies but it's hard to be sure...

you don’t buy the idea that somebody can find fresh new ways of using a classic ( or not classic) face?

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I didn't get "you cant teach an old dog new tricks," but rather that any typeface can be used well, it's just a matter of knowing how to do so. I would agree 100% if Sand didn't exist, but I get the idea :)

Hmm - yes! It could be "know how to use" is meant in a plural manner.

Let's see...
I use Eidetic Neo for church-related graphics.
Emigre Lo-Res fonts are good for Flash
Dalliance Script
Solex is still pretty hot.
Tarzana also.
And so are
Matrix Script (in moderation)
Filosophia
Mrs. Eaves
Vendetta
Brothers
Cholla
Long live Exocet!

Occasionally, I'll get a client who digs the 90's/Emigre style.
No hesitation on my part.

Anybody ever successfully use the Apollo "Elliot's" fonts?

This kind of article should be beneath Typophile. It's no less than black PR. If you have interesting critical things to say about a typeface, then fine. But to call or even suggest an entire catalogue "dead history" is not going to make you any friends at Emigre, or among those who like the fonts. And makes me wonder why you would do it.

@Zato: Nobody here is dumping on the entire Emigre catalog, we’re discussing whether or not we use some of the Emigre designs in our own work and our reasons for making these font choices.

There are quite a few foundries who are scrambling to reinvent their catalogues monthly to keep it current. I think Emigre has done a great job of that. They don't seem to discount their past work and proudly list it next to the new stuff. People thought Helvetica was dead and it came back with a feature film. Sure, Helvetica is probably more ubiquitous, but that isn't to say that Emigre's faces don't still hold a spot in our current libraries.

Hey Zato,

I am actually writing a book about typography, and in this book I wrote a full article about Zuzana Licko's Mrs Eaves, and another one about Xavier Dupre's Vista, in which I say a lot of nice things. I am actually in regular contact with Ms Licko herself, and everything is fine. I have been one of the biggest fans of Emigre since years, I have countless printed specimens, Emigre magazines, I receive their catalog and I actually have some of the typefaces licensed. I also wrote, and think, that it's becoming increasingly hard to use most of these types today mostly because of their success in the nineties, which is not rude or bad or whatever, but simply true. Read again, mate, because that is really what I said, asking the fellow typophiles around their point of view, which is sometimes the same, sometimes very different. I, for example, agree totally with Tiffany when she says that Emigre proudly stands by their old designs, and I didn't think of it that way before; I came to this different point of view through discussing with the clever people around.

Now, this being said, you subscribed here 8 weeks ago, and you posted only one messsage - this one. Do *you* actually have any interesting critic to formulate?

Cheers,
dr

"Being stuck in the 80s / 90s is at least two decades ahead of where graphic design currently is, based on best selling fonts... "

Weird, ever consider looking forward? taking a peak at what just might be 21st century design/typography? No revolutionaries here? just reactionaries?

I guess this backward-looking thing is what they call turn-of-the-century "future shock."

Gerald

bieler:

I guess history bites its own tail... New stuff will come along, but 80's and 90's big comeback is definitely on the way. that's human nature.

I think Neville Brody agrees with me on this one :-)

dr

This is what you wrote: Emigre... Are you still using some of them?

I was wondering about Emigre’s types. A few years ago they were top of the hype, so much overused that they are now paying the price of success; I can’t go through Emigre’s catalog without seeing “1990” written everywhere. I mean, apart from a few types (Malaga, Vista, Mrs Eaves, Tribute), who can actually still use today types such as Triplex, Matrix Script, Keedy, Dogma, Democratica, Dead History or Citizen?

"top of the hype" ....what exactly do you mean here? Hype has a negative connotation.
"so much overused that they are now paying the price of success". Really? So if you do excellent creative work, and it becomes popular, you'll "pay a price" later?

"I mean, apart from a few types (Malaga, Vista, Mrs Eaves, Tribute), who can actually still use today types such as..." Right, I see. No one should use these fonts-they're just not the hype anymore.

@Zato

I think someone hit a nerve, but I don't think David intended to be disdainful to Rudy, Zuzana &c. I'm a huge Emigre fanboy (proud owner of an Emigre tshirt-in Dogma no less), but that doesn't mean we can't offer some criticism. I prefer to think of Emigre's types as fashionable. Imagine what the clothes from high-fashion designers from Paris, Milan and New York were making in the late 80s and early 90s. Emigre was kind of the place where typefaces were rethought, and the result was a lot of experimental type designs. Some were successful in the short run, some not at all, and some that I don't think that I could work without. I'm actually starting to lean towards Mrs Eaves being sort of fad-y.

Hype has a negative connotation.
Sometimes, yes. Emigre was hyped and criticized. What David is saying is nothing new. I believe Massimo Vignelli and Paul Rand would truly have gotten a reaction out of you.

@ David
I am actually in regular contact with Ms Licko herself, and everything is fine.
Can you get me a signed specimen book? ;)

Hey Zato, welcome back and congrats on your second post.

- For me, "top of the hype" means "trendy, successful". sorry if it's not the actual meaning, english is not my mothertongue. doin' my best. looking back at the sentence, it was quite obvious, though.

- When something is overused, it pays the price of success: well, yes, it's sad but true. when a talented artist makes something which totally fits its era and is overused, it gets so much associated with it that on the day the fashion changes, the work (in this case, a typeface) follows the path to oblivion and shame. You think i'm wrong? well, cooper black was "top of the hype" in 1968, and it was the synonym of cheap in 2000. brody was "top of the hype" in 1987, and you can hardly find one of his types in use today. 90% of aldo novarese's types are unavailable on a digital format today, because nobody wants them; even though he was a great artist, his types were so much used in the sixties and seventies that they are now "paying the price". it's very sad, yes; it is as sad as admitting that it's hard for me today to use typefaces i really, really loved, such as dogma or triplex, but it's a fact.

- who can actually use these types today: that was a question, you know. I know i can not use these types anymore myself, not because they are not top of the hype, but because they have been once. so i was wondering if anyone else can, with success. and then I had interesting answers. and then, I had yours.

hope you understood me this time, if no i'll explain again, no problem.

dr

Chipman:

"Can you get me a signed specimen book?"

my book? with pleasure.

a specimen from emigre signed by Ms Licko? well, at least i can try :-)

dr

I meant the latter (and was kidding, don't worry), but I'd be very interested in reading your book, and hearing what it covers (or who else you've talked to) in the mean time. I won't do any post hijacking though.

Helvetica is probably more ubiquitous

Well... given it comes bundled into every operating system, then yes.

It does seem like type has a cycle of excitement over novelty and distinctive voice and then a return to core values and around again as the core values start to feel too staid. But the cycle may be disrupted now. Or the cycles may be getting closer & closer so that you just have near simultaneous activity in several directions. This whole "decorative" cycle has lasted a remarkably long time! Simultanaity may have the effect of extending the life of all trends by ensuring that the point of over-exposure takes longer to get to. And yes, this is all just theoretical waffle just barely related to the topic.

Maybe I'm wrong, but IMHO Emigre fonts look a bit undecided, they don't know if they want to be revolutionary or conservative, particulary, Mrs. Eaves. What was the aim of this project? a traditional font? a revolutionary font? it's certainly not a font we needed, and it doesn't have any special background like Baskerville did, an special and strong motivation that lead to the font that couldn't have been done in any other way. Emigre is certainly special in the experimental field, although it's weak for a functional type, as we see in the Black Hawk Down cover.
For a eighties based project it's cool, but Emigre fonts are more like art, and I wouldn't be using them for something functional.

I made a book in Triplex last year. I just felt the face served the purpose of an indigenous cookbook with it's brusque yet elegant italic. Before this I have only seen Triplex used twice on flyers but I must say I live in Mexico and was 8 years old in 1990.

Héctor

I’m going to flip my take on this thread and list the Emigre types I would still love to use on a project:

Tribute: What a great book this can make.
Fairplex: This would be great for faux old-fashioned posters.
Matrix II: My next business card will be Matrix as a flip of the just-text-in-Univers design I use now. And I really want to use the ornaments somewhere.
Vista: This would be nice for my Earth-mother clients
Modula: On the cover of a fashion magazine
Priori: As a titling face

Ha! Journal is hands down the best thing Emigre ever delivered. Emigre started out in the PostScript Type 3 years (the only free font format licensing around) and learned the lessons of optimizing for low-resolution output devices quite well. There are very few typefaces that actually look better at smaller size. Journal is one of them. If it looks slightly Czech, well, it is, can't do any better than that. As Goudy said, those old guys stole all our best ideas (I paraphrase).

Gerald

I've just found this… :=)

Emigre typefaces have just been overused.
Gerald Lange is the one who made the most appropriate comments.

There are typefaces by Emigre which are milestones, what you consider "dated" largely depends on how much and how you have seen it.

Hmm..this IS an interesting thread. Yes I do agree that some of their faces are EXTREMELY dated..but there are others that I use regularly.

A rundown:

Mrs Eaves - still good for some things, just not setting lots of type in!
Tribute - Used it recently for an Order of service, turned out quite nice.
Missionary - technically useless but appeared here and there as fillers in the now(sadly) defunct Blueprint (Martha Stewart magazines)
Brothers - still see it on and off...definitely one I keep
Base Nine - seriously, it's not that bad..but must be used sparingly
Solex - somehow reminds of Heinze Ketchup. Decent condensed sans.
Malaga - don't have it but lust after it anyways!
Vista - Not bad either... but many sans look like this too:(
Dalliance - IDEA mag used it for the first few pages of their issue on Book Design in China. Very well used/put together.
Cholla - I bet it still has uses out there..don't have it so I can't say.
Filosofia - seen books set in this, might be a bit too much in novels but I used it for setting a coffee table book.
Priori - dare I say this? I'm using it now for headers in a cookbook(on CHINESE food mind you) but it works. Gill would have been too boring, the quirky-ness helps that little bit!

The rest.. sorry. I doubt it..but you never know?

I wouldn't write them off completely. They've definitely produced a bunch of gems, and some duds of course, but which foundry hasn't? When I was in design school I thought the world of Emigre and it's catalogues!

I was going to make a list of Emigre fonts that I still consider when choosing typefaces, but I have to admit there aren't that many that I wouldn't. I mean, yes, some of their earliest stuff is waiting for a mid-nineties revival, but for the most part many of them might work given the appropriate context.

Being stuck in the 80s / 90s is at least two decades ahead of where graphic design currently is, based on best selling fonts...

Simon, you are absolutely right. What a weird situation (if the rankings are actually correct and not some marketing ploy)
prgr