Pays to shop around I guess.

Now I understand how Veer can afford all the promo pieces and freebies.

If it was a difference of 5 bucks, I could understand, but 15 and 49 !?

Someone needs to come up with something like PriceGrabber for fonts, with user reviews, typesetting samples, font version description, and so on. (You heard it first here on Typophile!)

$15 and 49 is a difference. Just how would you call $75 vs. $280 for one font...

What exactly are you referring to, lorem?

What I always wonder about is if kerning or functionality is updated and how or if versions vary between vendors.

Nice call, I too wonder if different vendors supply differently produced fonts.... like from Myfonts, Veer, Fontshop or the foundry or the designer...

QUESTION: is there a difference from supplying font vendors of the same font?

It looks like the same type and it has the same name - but it appears to be two different versions.

The one that myfonts.com is © Thaddeus Typographic Center while the one from veer.com is © Veer --

Since I don't own them, I cannot compare them to see if they were drawn the same or differently -- but both sites are respectable and therefore both fonts should be fine with kerning, drawing, etc.

Huge difference though. And now I can't wait for Lorem to get back to us about the 75 vs 280 font.

while the one from veer.com is © Veer
No, on Veer it’s ‘Copyright © Thaddeus Typographic Center’, too. This is the same font, I bet you.

Corporate A OpenType Plus

$75 MyFonts
http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/urw/corporate-a/regular/opentype-ps/302728/

$150 FontShop
http://www.fontshop.com/fonts/singles/urw/corporate_a_regular_ot_plus/

$240 Monotype (fonts.com)
http://www.fonts.com/findfonts/detail.htm?pid=44614&grab_id=0&page_id=28...

€180 ($280)
Directly from its maker, URW.
http://www.urwpp.de/cgi-bin1/dalcgi/source/schnellsuche.htd?searchchar=c...

I'd say these two products (Sans Original and URW Corporate fonts) are extreme examples. The vast majority of font products on the market don't vary in price more than 15%.

This is very, very interesting. I'm wondering if the original designer/foundry make the same amount of money whether it is sold for $75 or $240 (i.e., is it just the gap in the profit margin for the distributor?).

I have no problem with different font prices. Be a good shopper and remember if you want something like Avant Garde Alts by Eisner + Flake the charters are drawn differently from the Adobe verison of the same font. So what. buy the Eisner + Flake verision.

I have no problem with different font prices. Be a good shopper and remember if you want something like Avant Garde Alts by Eisner + Flake the charters are drawn differently from the Adobe verison of the same font. So what. buy the Eisner + Flake verision.

It’s not about differing versions of one typeface, but about identical fonts, offered by different distributors.

nana - it depends on the foundry/vendor. I am pretty sure Veer gives Thaddeus a similar cut as other retailers (MyFonts is an exception at 65%). It's a direct relationship: designer to retailer.

But some foundries give back less as the font makes its way through the reseller chain. A font can be sub-licensed twice before its sold on the retail market, giving the designer a smaller share of the retail price.

The FontFont contract is more fair in that regard. FSI pays a designer's royalty of 20% of the recommended retail price of each package sold worldwide. This is equivalent to 45% - 50% of the wholesale price of the font, regardless of where it is sold.

I recommend ITC Avant Garde Gothic Std (OT) from Linotype (via Font Explorer X) my reason:

I purchased the FontShop Elsner+Flake Avant Garde Gothic and the matching alternates (ALT) after speaking to Fontshop as the EF alternates do differ from the Adobe and Linotype... only to find later Linotype (via FontExplorer X) Avant Garde Gothic (opentype) included the alternates for a lot less than the FontShop Elsner+Flake Avant Garde Gothic postscript... if comparing... only if comparing. Should have researched this one more I guess

Now... I research all typefaces to see if I can get options or the family, formats like OT, and bells and whistles (or a t-shirt at least)

Buying fonts is an addiction NOW! replacing the vinyl (music) addiction...

Thanks so much, Stephen, for your response. Interesting. I suppose it's a little bit like licensing photography for usage.

PS: I love typographica.org!

wow here is another... from Thaddeus
http://www.veer.com/products/typedetail.aspx?image=UMT0000324&WT.ac=type...

vs

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/thaddeus/on-the-line/

$15 vs $49 ... now is this because the designer is now with Umbrella (margin 1) who is on Veer (margin 2)?
This is a little rough really, what is the incentive to buy from Veer... if you were buying 10 licences or all of Thaddeus' fonts then the savings would be huge by going to MyFonts, infact the saving are huge just with the one font, I could buy a glass of pinot noir to celebrate myfonts cheaper purchase and even buy lunch. Is there a recommended retail that should be applicable here?

Though it is quite cheap on MyFonts... $15 is a lean price?

> Umbrella (margin 1) who is on Veer (margin 2)

No, Umbrella is Veer. It's simply a brand name. A label.

thanks. If comparing other designers/foundry fonts on Veer who too are not exclusive and are on others like MyFonts, Fontshop or their own site the prices 'mostly' are the same price unless Euro or Pounds etc then for me it is better to get from Veer or Myfonts, or Fontshop (AUD)...in this case I would purchase from MyFonts.. also as I cannot get the merchandise from Veer (as per other post)

I have usually found prices to be similar wherever a typeface is available. The difference is the percentage of the retial price the designer gets. I am all for the designer getting the lion's share.

ChrisL

Same... if possible I try to buy from their site, though sometimes it is good to do a bundle of assorted designers fonts in one hit...?

In my life, I've met so many talented designers without money that it slowly drove me to globally consider typefaces'price way too high, especially on Veer. There should be a "student" price on each and every type in the world, such as 5 or 10 bucks, the same thing which is happening with softwares. A student can never afford most of the good, modern, independent types, and that's a pity, he needs a lot of them to practice, so he has to steal them, everybody knows that. Once he gets pro, once he has a deal with a customer, he then buys the license, and everybody is happy. Instead of finding a correct and honest solution, I constantly hear type designers whining about type thieves, this is really pathetic.

uh sorry I guess I was slightly off-topic here.

dr

> In my life, I’ve met so many talented designers without money

What about type designers? I don't think many of them make tons of money with it. So lowering the price wouldn't make sense from that point of view...

Quincux, I didnt say to lower the price, I suggested to make a system with 2 prices, one low for the student and the non-pro, and another one, higher, for the pro. Read me again.

dr

> I suggested to make a system with 2 prices, one low for the student and the non-pro, and another one, higher, for the pro.

Sounds like making a lower price to me!

Actually, though, I'm completely in favor of two separate prices. This is not a problem for many in the font business at all. The problems are the nebulous questions around the lower, student price:

1. Do you really think that lowering font prices to $5 or even $1 would stop, or significantly reduce, student font piracy? I mean, if students have no money, then they have no money. You can't afford $5 licenses without money. If students feel "entitled" to free software apps and fonts—which many do—pricing will not change their habits.

2. Does the license expire once the student is no longer a student? I have purchased some academic software licenses were this was the case, and some were it wasn't. If a font's license expires along with student status, there is no way to control the actions afterwards… people probably won't delete the files and buy new, non-student licenses for all the fonts they got as students. Maybe for the few they like best. Ideally, they'd stop using all of the fonts they don't upgrade, but this requires a lot of trust.

Dan, today you agree with me: that's crazy! Makes me happy, I've been waiting for this moment for a long time.

1: yes, I think it would reduce the piracy. I don't know about the other countries, but a student with no money in France (I can talk only about what I know best, and I've been a teacher in French art schools) would probably get more fonts in a legal way. Here, I'm talking about students who have been awakened to the beautiful art of typography, students who met typographers, students who know that there is a man behind each type, so I guess it relies a lot on education as well. I know it's impossible to stop piracy, but maybe we could find at least a more fair way to educate students and give them the possibility to test and use beautiful designs without being ashamed of stealing something.

2: about this license thing, actually maybe the solution is not to make a "student" license, but a "non commercial" license. Don't you think it would be great if some guy at home uses, for 5 dollars, a type such as Fedra or FF Meta Serif on an invitation for his sister's wedding, send it to a lot of people including a graphic designer who's gonna enjoy the type, buy it and use it on a professional job? Types will spread, beauty will rule, money will flow and happiness will conquer all.

dr

Dan, today you agree with me: that's crazy! Makes me happy, I've been waiting for this moment for a long time.

1: yes, I think it would reduce the piracy. I don't know about the other countries, but a student with no money in France (I can talk only about what I know best, and I've been a teacher in French art schools) would probably get more fonts in a legal way. Here, I'm talking about students who have been awakened to the beautiful art of typography, students who met typographers, students who know that there is a man behind each type, so I guess it relies a lot on education as well. I know it's impossible to stop piracy, but maybe we could find at least a more fair way to educate students and give them the possibility to test and use beautiful designs without being ashamed of stealing something.

2: about this license thing, actually maybe the solution is not to make a "student" license, but a "non commercial" license. Don't you think it would be great if some guy at home uses, for 5 dollars, a type such as Fedra or FF Meta Serif on an invitation for his sister's wedding, send it to a lot of people including a graphic designer who's gonna enjoy the type, buy it and use it on a professional job? Types will spread, beauty will rule, money will flow and happiness will conquer all.

dr

David, I've discussed these problems quite often with my colleagues. Here are our stumbling blocks:

> I’m talking about students who have been awakened to the beautiful art of typography, students who met typographers, students who know that there is a man behind each type

These students are not the problem. If a student gets this interested in type, he or she is already almost, if not already, part of the choir we are preaching to. Also, when these students e-mail the foundry in question, or the designer, they may be able to work out an agreement. I know many big foundries and small designers who give fonts to students for specific projects. But the contact has to be initiated here by the student, and there has to be a discussion. This creates a small rapport and trust, too. I love getting e-mails from dedicated students, and always do my best to help. I can't always give them what they are asking for, but a solution is often available once I understand what they or their professors really need.

A student font license would not be made for this group, but for the much bigger block of "all-the-other-students-in-the-world-who-use-fonts." This is a very different group of people. They don't meet the criteria you discuss above. Nevertheless, they are students, and I do think that they should be met halfway, as long as it remains doable. It unfortunately isn't something that is doable for everyone.

> not to make a “student” license, but a “non commercial” license. Don’t you think it would be great if some guy at home uses, for 5 dollars, a type such as Fedra or FF Meta Serif on an invitation for his sister’s wedding

Actually, many of my colleagues and I really do not like this idea at all. The problem is that "non commercial users" are really difficult to define. One can assume that quite many of the design students will become real professional designers in the future. Maybe more will than won't. OK. But many people who "fall in love with type" in the "adult" world might decide to become DTP professionals, or something similar. Who knows? Then they'd need font upgrades. Would they buys them? I don't know. This requires some more thought… Also, some designers might buy fonts for non commercial purposes, too… like their sister's wedding invite or such. Moreover, many of my customers who I'd call "non-professional" might actually think of themselves as professionals. This isn't for me to decide, but for them! It is their identity… I can't determine it for them.

One thing about a low price for a student is that it will teach the foolish student that type is not valuable. You might find a policy like this increases the proliferation of pirate copies. I could see five dollar fonts multiplying like roaches in a university system that didn't have a strong policy.

"Types will spread, beauty will rule, money will flow and happiness will conquer all."

Types will spread but not in a good way. There are plenty of students who would honor the student liscence but enough would just assume after graduation that they can use the type in a commercial way and just "forget" to pay the also underpaid type designer. Money will flow to pirates, not to type designers. David, it is easy to think of type designers as big foundries like Adobe and Linotype thereby assuming they are all huge corporations with piles of money but this is not the case. Most type designers live a quite modest life and work out of a small corner of their home or apartment. They don't have financial support from their parents as students do and they have children of their own to support and send through college. How would you feel if type designers asked design students to send them half the money they spend on beer so that they may make beautiful type so that beauty could rule and happiness could conquer all? The type designers would then promise to send back half the beer money just as soon as the new types they designed had made large sums of money for them but of course there would be no way to verify this and the students would just have to assume that the flow of happiness caused honesty to flow as well.

ChrisL

Do you really think that lowering font prices to $5 or even $1 would stop, or significantly reduce, student font piracy? I mean, if students have no money, then they have no money. You can’t afford $5 licenses without money

There’s a pretty big difference between $5 and $20 or $50. Broke design students can cough up $20 to get four weights they only want to use once. They often can’t cough up $80, much less $200.

If a font’s license expires along with student status, there is no way to control the actions afterwards… people probably won’t delete the files…

What happens afterward is irrelevant. The system I proposed has nothing to do with students getting access to files, because they already have access to the files. They can download everything Monotype, Adobe, Fontshop or almost anyone else sells in less time than you could ship them a legit collection on CD. What I am suggesting is to try monetizing a market that right now isn’t producing much income at all by selling one-time licenses. Sure the system would be a pain in the ass. Sure it will be abused. But unlike the current system—offering a few discount bundles and a lot of indignation—at least my proposal might generate some revenue and build a direct connection between the type industry and its next generation of customers.

One thing about a low price for a student is that it will teach the foolish student that type is not valuable.

That’s absurd. Students don’t think less of the software and hardware from companies like Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, Epson and Autodesk because they offer huge student discounts. The concept of a student discount really isn’t that complicated; anyone stupid enough to misunderstand student pricing as representative of open-market value is uncommonly stupid and not worth working into a business strategy.

James actually said what I was about to type, more or less: right now, people all around the world are using fonts which they didnt pay for, often for professional purpose. If some of them pay 5 dollars and forget to upgrade in the future, at least its 5 dollars, which is better than nothing. I actually think that this solution would bring more money to the typographers who live a modest life, whom i respect on a very high basis.

dr

> Do you really think that lowering font prices to $5 or even $1 would stop, or significantly reduce, student font piracy? I mean, if students have no money, then they have no money. You can’t afford $5 licenses without money

I doubt if they will buy it even then, at least the majority. You often need a credit card, or go through other 'annoying' payment methods. Downloading is much quicker and doesn't cost anything.

To illustrate: I am probably the only one from my whole year at art academy that has ever legally bought typefaces. Yet most of them know how much work goes into designing a typeface. But they just shrug it off, when I say they need a license.

It's a matter of mentality.

That’s absurd.

Possibly so, although it is commonly held that price does have a relationship to perceived value. But I defer, as computers were a much different sort of tool when I was in school, and I am less familiar with how students feel today.

Just a note about a lower price for the "non-professionals". I don't buy it. I understand a two-tier scheme for students and professionals, but I do not support the idea that a non-graphic designer deserves a lower price. Either you are a card-carrying, proof of enrollment student or you're not. And, if you're not, then too bad. Ooh. I'm a mood today. Sorry.

Tiffany, you have a really good point. Fonts are not exclusive products just for designers. They are for everyone who uses computers. In fact, I'll bet that the big foundries sell more fonts to normal people than to graphic designers. If these normal people would suddenly have to pay less… gosh, there goes the business :(

Moreover, as a designer, the secretary printing out reports at the big international bank is just as important to me as the cool corporate designer in the neat office around the corner. Both might be paying customers of my fonts. In fact, the big bank probably bought more licenses than the small design studio, so…

Just a hypothetical scenario though. Doesn't necessary apply to me, or a lot of other designers. But it does apply to some typeface designers!

Exactly! If a foundry were to try a 3-tier system they'd find themselves with sooooo much paperwork they'd close their shop just to stay sane. ;^) And I guess I was thinking more from a foundry POV too.

Fonts are not exclusive products just for designers. They are for everyone who uses computers.

You’re right, Dan, fonts are used by everyone out there. But I believe that there are a lot of people who aren’t professional designers and have very different needs in regards to fonts than designers do. To some extent Linotype has addressed this by selling individual fonts as tiered Opentype offerings at price points that scale upwards with features—a model I very much appreciate. I believe that there are a lot of different design and financial situations that keep users from purchasing fonts under the one-price-fits-all models, and that foundries might just bring in a whole lot of new customers by offering more licensing models.

Unfortunately all my scenarios are just as hypothetical as yours—after all, I don’t have thousands of fonts on offer to play around with.

there are a lot of people who aren’t professional designers and have very different needs in regards to fonts than designers do

And the vast majority of them will do just fine with the fonts that come bundled with their computer. I doubt that is a profitable market for foundries to chase. If there were to be a multi-tiered structure for font pricing, I'd rather see it have to do more with use. I.e. an individual designer or small studio who needs a font to design a logo for a neighborhood bakery vs. an agency that is licensing a font to use for a corporate identity. Perhaps this is something that should be reflected in the EULA rather than the pricing. I don't know.

sorry, double post
ChrisL

The difficulty with all of these schemes is that there is a fair amount of time involved in making it work, There is more support issues as well. A corporate designer is going to know how to load fonts where the average joe or Jane will be on the phone wanting to know how come that OTF thingy won't load on their Windows 95 system or on their daughter's Apple IIe.

ChrisL

hi y'all -

My name's Chank and I'm a long time listener and a first-time poster.

I make fonts and sell them through my own website, Chank.com, and through a number of other distributors.

I sell the same font under different names at different prices all the time. I have hundreds of fonts that I offer for sale.

You can get my fonts for as little as $4.95 or as much as $124 for a single weight of a font.

The main difference in the price is usually the license that comes with it. I encourage and empower casual designers and give them a chance to test-drive my fonts by making them available at a very reasonable price. This low-cost option is called a "Personal Use License" and restricts what you can and can't do with a font. Sometimes these budget fonts are only available in TrueType format.

I also sell my fonts to big corporations. When they buy a font, they like to be able to do whatever they want with it, so they're comfortable paying a bit more for a less-restrictive license. They also like Post-Script and OpenType. For them I offer a more expensive "Commercial Use License".

Other distributors of mine have their own licenses that they bundle with my fonts, and then sell them at a different price, usually somewhere in between $4.95 and $124.

(All these prices are based on a basic 5-user license; I'll try not to get into the murkier waters of multi-user licensing or freefonts in this post.)

All these licenses have different wordings, and it may be confusing. But the reality of it is that they all sell. That's how my small business survives. I offer my fonts through many distributors at many different prices, because this is how I can reach the largest and most diverse group of designers. Because I want lots of people to use my fonts. It's only when people see other designers using fonts that they can really appreciate a good type design. So I try to get lots of copies of my fonts out there and in use, under whatever name at whatever price it takes to make the sale.

The best deals are usually at my personal website, where sometimes I have crazy sales and sell fonts for as little as $2.95. But that only happens once in a while.

One of my favorite sales tools is the split-license option I use for my fonts for sale at MyFonts.com:
http://www.myfonts.com/PurchaseOptions?familyid=75616&id[]=154232

There you'll see the exact same font, in different formats, with different licenses, at different prices. I've never really promoted this option, because I don't want to confuse people with licensing talk. But when people see different licenses for sale at different prices, they can pretty easily determine which one is right for them and purchase accordingly.

I sell many more Personal Use licenses than I sell Commercial Licenses. But I make more money from the Commercial Licenses because the big companies can pay more.

And that helps offset my costs. So I can make my fonts available to individual users and casual font enthusiasts at a lower cost.

Ain't life grand?

-chank

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Chank Co http://www.chank.com
PO Box 580736
Minneapolis, MN 55458 • USA

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Welcome to the forums, Chank.

Do you wonder if people are licensing for personal use and then turning around and using it for commercial work? I'd guess you have. Putting it that way, having multiple licenses, makes sense. But I wonder if the reason more foundries don't/won't adopt this is because of trust.

Thanks for the excellent and very relevant post, Chank.

But I wonder if the reason more foundries don’t/won’t adopt this is because of trust.

I’m pretty sure that it is. But my theory is that there’s a lot of money to be made by brushing off the people who break the trust than there is in rigid licensing.

Ha! ha!

You know what the really funny thing is?

People sometimes buy both licenses! Woo hoo!

Freelance graphic designers can buy the Personal Use License for their internal design work and sketches they make for their clients. Then, once the client approves the design, the designer can send them to MyFonts to buy the Commercial Use License for themselves. Or sometimes a designer will buy the Commercial Use license on the client's behalf.

And it's pretty clear which use is which. If it's a freelancer who doesn't even know if the font is gonna be used or not, then he or she should be using the cheaper Personal Use version. If it's a company who decides to use it for marketing, packaging or the web, then they know they need to get the Commercial Use version.

If it's student work, it's Personal Use. If it's a logo for a new small business, it's a Commercial Use.

People are smarter than most people give them credit for. They will buy the appropriate license for their intended use if given an affordable opportunity to do so.

I believe offering low-cost fonts for casual designer discourages piracy. I personally think my fonts are pirated less because I so readily make them available in a variety of venues. If I were elitist and were to charge more to sell my fonts to a more elite group, I would be more a target of font pirates. But since I'm "keepin' it real", people rarely deliberately pirate my fonts.

I think the reason more foundries don't employ a multi-tiered licensing system is that it's just too complicated and confusing. And it takes a lot of time, energy and money to lawyers to write multiple End-User-Licenses. It's kind of a pain. Most font designers would rather make fonts than spend time re-writing EULAs. I'm an anomalie.

But the way MyFonts does it is clean and easy for the end user (the font shopper). Theoretically a foundry can write any number of licenses and attach them to a variety of prices for an infinite number of SKUs. It's the clumsiness of shopping interface that makes it impractical.

Remember the first rule of marketing: Keep it simple, stupid.

-chank

If it’s a freelancer who doesn’t even know if the font is gonna be used or not, then he or she should be using the cheaper Personal Use version.

This is surprising. But if it is a studio or agency that doesn't know if the font is going to be used is it still a Personal Use License?

People are smarter than most people give them credit for.

That maxim should be on the intro page of every design textbook.