Paul, Jos, I'm just talking on a forum about why stuff happens, not passing judgement on anyone.

It does concern me that when "everyone else is doing it", only some offenders get called to task.
This is probably something for the concerned parties to sort out.

just little me chiming in -

first off, Delicious is beautiful, and based on your comment :

" we’re talking about virtually every character being identical, point for point."

i suspect you are correct about the foundation of their font, but as a relatively unschooled observer, i wonder how exactly "originality" works in font design, specifically in the arena of updates and revivals of relatively conservative styles ?

to my eyes, Delicious belongs to a style of which there are numerous examples, some much better than others. Delicious does appear to be one of the earliest and best, but a quick perusal of Myfonts.com yielded a host of fonts that i might consider if that was the style i required :

NONE of them have the elegant "v" of Delicious, and of course many of the"g"s are open, but some of the "m"s appear traceably similar.

there have been other threads about reissues and redesigns, adaptations and updates... i don't mean to undermine your case, curioustype, and i would contact them, but i'm just curiousmyself as to how this design process works and "where the lines are drawn".

please forgive me if all i've conveyed is my ignorance.

I think Delicious is certainly worth more than *free,* but I understand just wanting to get the work out there. Could any of this kind of stuff be avoided by maybe charging 50 cents (not sure what that converts to in Euros/Pounds) or some other small charge, and extending the rights? Would that circumvent any of these screw-over situations? I'm no expert on intellectual property law, so feel free to correct, or plain old send me to school.

"The fundamental true is, apparently, there is no way the 'infractores' will agree to any profit sharing."

well, at least one good thing has come of this. i - and probably
a few others - are now aware of jos' very nice, free fonts. i will
definitely download at least one if not more. they are "heel mooi."

jos, do you get many donations? what's a typical donation amount
that you get?

jarrod

Thank you, Nick, I will avoid Mr. Shinn from now on.

In response to a few of the more intriguing comments:

"It does concern me that when 'everyone else is doing it,' only some offenders get called to task. This is probably something for the concerned parties to sort out."

I'm not sure I like Nick anymore because it sounds disrespectful to me - especially when I feel compelled to point out the claim "everyone else is doing it," uses the word "it" in a vastly different context than its ordinary application. I find it difficult to believe "everyone," is engaging in this level of rip-offensy, a word making its debut appearance in the English language in this very sentence. Everyone else may be tweaking metrics, auto-setting kerning and/or making a sans serif out of Clarendon without disclosing the intent ... and then distributing the result for sale. This to me was much different.

My point: I think in this context, we're not talking about "offenders" all existing on a certain moral plane. We're talking about what to the best of my knowledge is a completely different level of "offenders," and as such, almost demand to be taken to task. I see your point - why attack Parachute when Foundry X has been releasing virtual mock-ups of various fonts for years. I just don't consider this to be on par with what might call "routine" piracy.

"Parachute may have crossed the dividing line into point piracy, but I suspect they don’t think that’s any worse than a legitimately-drawn Frutiger clone which didn’t even bother tacking on a few serifs."

And that's frightening because it introduces an entire different dimension of thinking and approach to the field. I can see 65 fonts that are visually identical to Frutiger but of those, perhaps 20 of them spent their entire creation process as a unique entity ... before the designer finishes and says, crap, I've just designed Frutiger. Of the remaining 45, I couldn't even speculate how many of them have similarities right down to the exact point location - all over the font. In an odd way, I admire the whole Myriad "entity" because at least in a visual sense it comes out and admits it's a Pepsi to Frutiger's Coke. This font looks like it's wearing a nose-and-glasses.

"i wonder how exactly “originality” works in font design, specifically in the arena of updates and revivals of relatively conservative styles?"

The accompanying visual was powerful and definitely echoes the infinite fine lines between fonts and styles. The difference: the examples you provide display fonts extremely similar in appearance. Parachute's "Muse" just bypassed even bothering to make a font that looked extremely close to Delicious, they just TOOK Delicious itself and curled its hair. This is not a question of how "original" the font "Muse" is. That would be an appropriate question/comment only if Muse was created in a cave and when emerging just happened to match point-for-point with another font.

"“Never attribute to maliciousness that which can adequately be explained by stupidity!” Mark Twain"

Never let stupidity prevent you from recognizing what is obviously malicious. - Curioustype.

I downloaded Delicious. Actually, a question, can I use it to print in my letterpress??
Will work great for business cards.

Nick wrote:
It does concern me that when “everyone else is doing it”, only some offenders get called to task.
This is probably something for the concerned parties to sort out.
<<<<<<<<<<

I understand what Nick's talking about, but I'd like to suggest that this should be a separate post. It seems the specifics of this case are intriguing, yet somewhat removed from the question of "if we're mad at the little guys, are we doing enough about the big bad guys."
I mean, the 2 cases are related, but it would be more beneficial to talk about these independently. That would certainly help the threads stay on track, and with luck, perhaps make some logical headway.

Jason C

This is probably something for the concerned parties to sort out.

Opinions are like... well in any case, the concerned parties should work it out. If the original font was free with no EULA it makes a tough case for "damages". On the other hand, Parachute has not chimed in with their side of the story. If the font was a direct modification as it seems to be the case, one possible way for Parachute to make it right might be to offer to license the original font alongside the adaptation and pay a royalty to the original designer for both designs... or stop selling it altogether. An impartial arbitration such as what has been offered in the past by ATypI for its members could probably get both parties to sit down and decide on a course of action rather than have this thread come up with more theories.

> nick: Their position (explained on a previous Typophile thread) is that this is a dodgy business and everybody plagiarizes.

was that their position? We are talking about a designer's alleged *point piracy*, and they certainly have not laid down a position on that. But in this thread, words have been put in their mouths, implying that they condone this.

from that thread

Influences? Yes a lot. But don’t you see this in all new faces? As Goudy once said “the old guys stole our best ideas”. If originality was questioned, in this harsh and inappropriate way, anytime each one of us spotted some sort of ‘inspiration’ from another source, then all existing new faces would have been knockoffs to different people for different reasons. I myself, and assume many of you, every time I look at typefaces I find similarities to other ones. This does not necessarily mean one is a knockoff of the other.
A knockoff is a cheap almost-identical or simply identical version of an existing original typeface and definitely not something you have created from scratch and of course not something that is based on public domain material.
Parachute fonts, as member ‘aluminum’ mentioned, are expensive. Imagine that. A knockoff that expensive!! Who are you kidding ‘raa’? Parachute fonts are original as much as others can be, very well crafted and designed to offer more than other competitive typefaces, simultaneously supporting Latin, Greek and Cyrillic. .... If we were to be blamed for designing some highly competitive typefaces like the Din Text Pro Series, Highway Sans Pro etc, which were created using original public domain sources in the most ethical way (old manuscripts, manuals for major standards, historic catalogs), then we are guilty as charged. Nothing to hide, just read the credits. I’m glad that members like ‘marcox’ have already picked their favorite.
But if we were to be judged based on one member’s misconception then that makes me really mad.

Can you define plagiarism, as you're using it in this context? Is remaking DIN plagiarism? They seem to be pretty open about the influences of their fonts for sale.

and Curioustype, expecting every foundry to be aware of every free font? That's just silly.

Damnit, I missed another awesome discussion! I'm not sure what happened, did we decide that the Parachute boys might not have done anything really that bad, or did we decide that all "revivals" are plagiarized copies of copies?

Whatever the outcome, can someone please take Bank Gothic and make a revival that FIXES all the hideous mistakes Morris made back at the turn of the 20th century? I'm tired of seeing it used EVERYWHERE. Perhaps those are the fonts the Parachute boys should focus on, instead of fixing what is obviously NOT broken.

Anyway, Nick, Chris, you guys need to make up. I hope you were both just caught up in the moment.

That is all, I'm going to sleep.

>did we decide

yes

>can someone please take Bank Gothic and make a revival that FIXES all the hideous mistakes Morris made back at the turn of the 20th century?

Here you go... http://www.typeoff.de/?p=135

"Curioustype, expecting every foundry to be aware of every free font?"

No, but even a marginal level of awareness would seemingly include knowledge of many of the best ones. And certainly Delicious. I don't believe the Parachute people were unaware of "Delicious's" existence - I would more easily believe they hoped everyone else was unaware of it.

"Anyway, Nick, Chris, you guys need to make up."

Make up? I haven't even gotten used to calling Nick anything but "Mr. Shinn" yet. Even in that last sentence. As seemingly made clear in the previous post in which I ask Nick to just die already, I have a tremendous amount of respect for his views and opinions, and certainly his work. I just think at times I write something that sounds different from what I meant. For example, when I wrote "I’m not sure I like Nick anymore because it sounds disrespectful to me - especially when I feel compelled to point out ..." I was referring to addressing Nick by his first name, especially when I was about to follow it by saying, "Nick, you might be off base here." I certainly hope he understood this as well.

"Perhaps those are the fonts the Parachute boys should focus on, instead of fixing what is obviously NOT broken."

A simple yet incredibly profound observation/suggestion.

I will avoid Mr. Shinn from now on

I think that might be best. He has been known to have destroyed unsuspecting would-be font arguers with his devestating wit and logic...

Just kidding....

And my roomate chimes in in the background in a nasally nerd voice:
Aaaaa. The font police. The font police have come. Aaaaa....

Can you define plagiarism, as you’re using it in this context? Is remaking DIN plagiarism?

Plagiarism is not acknowledging your sources. That's the dictionary definition.
Remaking DIN is only plagiarism if you say it's your own invention.

words have been put in their mouths

In lieu of anyone from Parachute participating in this thread, I said, "Parachute may have crossed the dividing line into point piracy, but I suspect they don’t think that’s any worse than a legitimately-drawn Frutiger clone which didn’t even bother tacking on a few serifs."

I didn't put words in their mouth, I used plenty of weasel-words, such as "may have", and "I suspect they don't think..." They, or anybody else, is free to question my interpretation.

As I said, and Mr Kegler concurs, they should sort this out.

Chris, I love you, man.

In my personal opinion, this is the case of an enterprise taking advantage of a giving artist. It is a way to make money, as history has proved already (think of the history of computing).
Even if shameless reproduction has been part of the creative community since the very first moment, the bitter taste we bare it's not about property. Some of us honor true creation and innovation over many other things, promote them and defend them passionately. Some other people just like money and care less for this issues. Voilà Windows, Voilà Arial, Voilà Muse!

Still, all Windows shall come to their Vista, and all Jos to run Leopard and enjoy their iPod. The lack or presence of genius is so obvious that one can't hide it for long.

By the way, I like Delicious best; even if Muse has all this "features".

__________________________________________________
www.gabssnake.4t.com

>all Jos to run Leopard

which, er comes with Arial?

>and enjoy their iPod

which, er comes with Podium Sans?

>one can’t hide it for long.

indeed! ;-)

"I will avoid Mr. Shinn from now on."

I actually meant I would avoid referring to Nick as "Mr. Shinn."

"Chris, I love you, man."

Bite me, Nick.

HA! Just kidding there, Nick. In all seriousness, I am wondering how you would react if the font in question was yours? Both from a personal and professional standpoint. And, more importantly, would those reactions be one and the same? For example, would your first reaction be a long string of expletives only spoken in your inner dialogue, followed by taking some sort of action (not legal, or anything)? I think these are questions we all should ask ourselves. I certainly asked myself more than once. Still trying to make it past wanting them all to get hit by a bus. I haven't figured out what I'd think personally yet. Probably something like, the bigger the bus, the better.

> which, er comes with Arial?
> which, er comes with Podium Sans?

It's all a great irony :)

Also I don't like the posts been taken to the lowest part of the list when editing some coma or parentheses.

__________________________________________________
www.gabssnake.4t.com

welcome to typophile ;-)

> which, er comes with Podium Sans?

Oh well, at least the newer models feature Helvetica Neue!

__________________________________________________
www.gabssnake.4t.com

Thanks!

__________________________________________________
www.gabssnake.4t.com

How threads grow when you sleep a couple of hours :-)
Still haven't had a response on my email to Parachute.

jos, do you get many donations? what’s a typical donation amount that you get?

Can't tell how many. Most donations are 5 or 10 Euro's.

I downloaded Delicious. Actually, a question, can I use it to print in my letterpress??

Do you mean to ask if you can use it commercially? If so ... that's allowed.

Best wishes to you, Jos. I hope Parachute responds favorably to your email.

Sharon

I am wondering how you would react if the font in question was yours?

Because you're curious?

[breathing before posting] ... I sincerely would like to hear, "Yes" or "No"; can I use it to print some bus cards, using "Delicious".
If the answer is "No", I will agree. Thank You Jos.

The answer is "Yes".

Thank You so much :-)

When I use it, I will make sure to include a comment about it´s creator. Or the least, tell my client about Jos Bulvenga.

Much appreciated! (Make sure to spell my name right :-)

Those of you who have been to the 1st ICTVC may remember Panos Vasileiou (founder of the Parachute design system) presentation. It was the story of who stole from whom in the typographic universe; a sort of an apology for incestuous similarities in typefaces. Interestingly, there's the rumour that a few major type houses have been trying for some years to take Parachute to the courts, but the Greek judicial system seems unable to fathom the intricacies of type design. Even more interestingly, whenever there is a discussion about Parachute fonts, Greek type designers do not fail to notice that even though the Latin seems to be well designed, the Greek leaves a lot to be desired. Couple that to the fact that differences between PF types and suspected originals appear mainly in widths and not in heights and you end up uncomfortably numb.

Circumstantial evidence, I know. It may walk like a duck, it may look like a duck, but it's still an elephant.

wrong post....my b.

...

People, alas, leave Parachute aside; that's absolutely my responsibility. Indeed the first version of Muse has been based on Meta, Syntax and on some of their 'descendants' or influenced fonts - if you'd rather call it so - Delicious. Contrary to what my impression was, the font was just freeware and not open-source. Hence I should have never used Delicious and the previously mentioned fonts as a base in order to create a different font with additional value, more weights, variety and so on.

I should be contacting very soon the designer of Delicious and resolve this matter in the best possible way. Furthermore, I have asked Parachute to withdraw the font until a satisfactory solution is reached. Myself I've dealt before with designing greek characters for international open-source font projects and - after contacting the original designers and crediting them - I have also designed greek characters for non-open source, freeware fonts that were distributed over the internet (some of which were exposed here on typophile as well). Hence I APPRECIATE the effort of people producing software to be distributed freely and BY NO MEANS would i ever intentionally cause any harm on such efforts. Now, while this discussion serves well as a lesson for us young designers and while I understand Jos Buivenga's reaction, I find completely unjustified the effort to harm Parachute's credibility. Moreover, if I had been contacted directly, this matter would have been resolved in the best possible and civilized way. This has been indeed a valuable lesson.

Jos, your fonts are beautiful. i have made a donation, i hope it helps a little.
keep up the great work.

this discussion, and typophile in general, are (is?) of great benefit
to the design community.

i'm unclear as to the exact relationship between vank, parachute, and muse but it seems some resolution may be possible.

hopefully smiling emoticon.

i’m unclear as to the exact relationship between vank, parachute, and muse but it seems some resolution may be possible.

vank seems to be Vangelis Karageorgos, the guy who is credited for Muse on the Parachute website. Parachute is the foundry, selling the Muse fonts.

Jos - you finally finished Museo! Beautiful.

Vangelis, thanks for entering the fray and your explanation. Another minor victory and a point for Typophile, yay!

>Contrary to what my impression was, the font was just freeware and not open-source.

And a point for me for guessing the open source explanation. ;-)

Jos, I just made my donation. Sorry that I mispelled you name.

[edit]

JOS BUIVENGA

Hummer these people good! :-[

... and while I understand Jos Buivenga’s reaction, I find completely unjustified the effort to harm Parachute’s credibility.

True. That's why I did send an email to Parachute, so they could explain this thing. btw I didn't harm or hurt Parachute's credibility. I only said (and maybe I shouldn't have) that I was satisfied with that. I await you email vank.

i have made a donation, i hope it helps a little. keep up the great work.

Thanks for your kind gesture Ch(ristoper)!

Jos - you finally finished Museo! Beautiful.

Sorry, Vangelis, but explanations proffered so far are unpalatable and tough as old boots. I have no stake in this squabble, save this: honesty. That being said, it may be time to don your fire-retardant underwear...

Vank: "Contrary to what my impression was, the font [Delicious] was just freeware and not open-source. Hence I should have never used Delicious and the previously mentioned fonts [Meta, Syntax, and admitted but unspecified others] as a base in order to create a different font with additional value, more weights, variety and so on."

Notice of copyright wasn't ample clue that you ought not tinker with someone's work, let alone lift it indiscriminately as the core for what you presented to the world as "original" work? Additionally, Meta and Syntax are neither freeware nor open-source, but such rude facts generated zero compunction?

Vank: "I should be contacting very soon the designer of Delicious and resolve this matter in the best possible way."

Better late than never, eh? Will you similarly make amends forthwith about fiddling with the innards of Syntax and Meta? Confession may be good for the soul and all that, but restitution might speak volumes — certainly more so than feigned contrition.

Vank: "I have asked Parachute to withdraw the font until a satisfactory solution is reached."

Permanent withdrawal would probably be better still, inasmuch as this concocted product seems far too tainted.

Vank: "I APPRECIATE the effort of people producing software to be distributed freely and BY NO MEANS would I ever intentionally cause any harm on such efforts."

Funny stuff, that, if it didn't ring so false. In the case of Delicious, can anyone seriously believe you simply overlooked a clear copyright notice? Moreover, this "software ... distributed freely" bit doesn't touch on your admitted use of Meta and Syntax (and others) — i.e., "pay-ware" is somehow "fair game" by your lights? Is the process to toss 'em in a blender and spin well until an "original" congeals?

Vank: "I find completely unjustified the effort to harm Parachute's credibility"

That's too much like the pot calling the kettle black. Marketing a sham "original" did the company no great service. Judging by the comments of Angelos Bakas (a.k.a. "acrobat"), above, Parachute's supposed "credibility" is already dubious at best. I see no concerted anti-Parachute "effort" afoot here ... though maybe there ought to be one. D'ya think?

Vank: "... if I had been contacted directly, this matter would have been resolved in the best possible and civilized way."

Whoa! Wait a minute now. It's somehow become the responsibility of the guy you decide to rip off to contact you and say, "Please cease and desist," instead of it being your obligation to not pinch his goods in the first place? That doesn't track well at all.

Vank: "... a lesson for us young designers ..."

Yeah, right. That's akin to saying, "C'mon, folks. Let's just chalk it up to a youthful indiscretion, shall we?" No excuse, sir. Not on a bet.

Vank: "This has been indeed a valuable lesson."

Yes, indeed. Phrased bluntly: "Thou shalt not steal."

I, for one, certainly hope you move with all due speed to rectify this matter. Jos seems a first-rate individual, so perhaps he can forgive. It's been quite tawdry, all in all, and I fear the mar will remain. More's the pity.

*typo edit* solfeggio, although you make some valid points wouldn't it be better to see how this plays out rather than kick the man while he's down?

" I am wondering how you would react if the font in question was yours? Because you’re curious?"

Nope. Just the curious type.

Actually Nick Mr., I was humbled by your outward response in this thread (to a certain degree, anyway, though I felt it was a bit lenient) and wondered if the right-brainer in you would have a more emotional opinion. In strictly analogical terms, to me this is almost like how one would feel watching someone else's wife getting slapped vs. watching your own. The former vision could be rationalized by saying "a lot of people beat on women - yes it's tragic. But you can't just single out one loser when handing around criticism." In a typographic sense I am wondering if you'd apply the same theory. Or would you, like me, look for the guy and limit the remainder of his life's menu to jello through a tube?

Along these same lines, I have been just as humbled by Jos' response to all this. Although I also was warmed by the fact that yesterday he was on the verge of calling the Parachute guys silly nincompoops.

As for "Vank," first let me say I admire very much the guts it took to step up like he did - even if he what he said left much to be desired. It must have been extremely difficult to read the content of this thread. Still, after a night of sleep and newfound commitment to the idea of live and let live, I can't help but question the intent. This wasn't a journeyman designer driven by influence who submitted a font that was lackadaisacalamandabody released for sale at almost $400 for the family. Obviously Vank knew of Delicious's existence, and there are - or should be - more than just a few tees to cross and eyes to dot before a studio puts a font on the shelf for purchase. Clearly, decisions had to be made, perhaps a few last-minute alterations, etc. I cannot help but believe that SOMEWHERE along the way during this process, more people than just Vank had to have some clue what's going on.

I compare it to baseball, football, or perhaps even that strange game where the men run all around the field trying to kick(!?) the ball into a net bigger than my apartment. The best leaders of organizations in these arenas not only know their players, they know everyone else's, and who is on their way to the big time. Granted, they may not know EVERY standout in their, or should I say on their field, but in comparative terms, they almost should at least be aware not only of "Delicious," but of Jos himself. I think Jos is blue-chip all the way, and I'd find it difficult to believe most on this site haven't either become aware of him, or at least his work.

I have been trying to bite my tongue until both sides had aired ther views on this including Parrachute. While it is fair to say that the derivitive work may not have had a proper EULA or perhaps freeware vs opensource issues caused some confusion and muddled the legal issues, the ethical issues are another matter. Even if there were absolutely no way for a person to sued for the "youthful indescretion", how could they live with themselves as a human being? It should not be an issue of, will I get caught--it should be an issue of ethical human behavior. If you claim to do original work, then see that it is original. If you derive a work from someone else's sweat and toil, be a man and give them credit at the very least. Type designers are a small brother/sisterhood of people who work countless hours. Most give freely of their experience to others in guidence and cheer eachothers success and releases as if they were family. Vangelis, you are Jos brother in this craft, honor him and his work like a brother--don't become a thief in the night and betray his trust.
Vangelis was my fathers name and you have dishonored your own family. I am sure your parents raised you better than this deed betrays.

ChrisL

"wouldn't it be better to see how this plays out?"

Simon, upon further reflection, in view of the shenanigans under discussion, I think my comments are fairly restrained and warranted. So, no, I frankly don't see this as kicking anyone while they're down. Similarly, I don't find "the open source explanation" plausible. If you feel otherwise, well, that's your privilege. We may merely need to agree to disagree this time around.

Best regards,
Ernie

...it should be an issue of ethical human behavior...

Sage advice, Chris. Courtesy and Respect.

>We may merely need to agree to disagree this time around.

Fair enough. Thanks, Si

Hi all!
My name is Charis Tsevis and I am a designer who collaborates with Parachute Fonts too.
I ve been informed about this thread and I am writing what I think and feel.

1. Vagelis aka vank was obviously wrong.
What I understood is that he wanted to create a sans serif font (like Meta or Syntax) and he is based on Delicious, which was freeware.
He thought it was open source because he had one of the first versions, those without a EULA.
He made his new font wich was a 600 characters typeface with 10 versions.
OK. He was wrong. He had to give credits and communicate with Jos in the first place.

BUT...
2. He directly accepted his fault and he is willing to correct it.
As anyone here is not knowing him personally, it's better not to guess what happened and what he is going to do.
You better wait and see.

2. Some of you, fellas, are going too far away.
It's really sad to read about ...beaten women, cheated wives, companies with questionable credibility.
And all these without knowing facts, persons, companies etc.
OK, this is the internet, where everyone of us is usually expressing him self very fast. But, wait a minute. Ask yourself if you really know what you re saying.

After quite an hour of reading this thread (Sorry for my bad english) I am really feeling sad.
Vangelis is being treated like a thief and you ask to boycot Parachute Fonts, which is a group of 13 designers.

I only hope this wont open another battle.
Thanks for listening.
Best

Charis

"I have been just as humbled by Jos’ response to all this. "
I think that's a good sentiment. It's pleasing that this situation has at least begun to resolve itself.

I believe it was I who used the phrase "boycott" in passing. I wasn't serious, I had posted in the wrong forum (had the wrong window open), and played it off as a poor excuse for a witty response, as well as in poor taste, and have since edited that post (before Charis mentioned it). Charis, I apologize for any personal affront, as nobody should be held accountable for someone else's transgressions.

After discussion, I withdraw my opinions, stated or unstated, as this seems to be a matter between two designers, neither of which are me. I however, offer my support of any typographer or designer who has not been given credit for their work.

(adding insult to injury, i'm correcting this post as i spelled Charis as Chris... selective dyslexia i think)

"He thought it was open source because he had one of the first versions, those without a EULA."

Open source does not mean 'do what you want and resell it'.