By my side, its just a cost factor and I assume its similar for everyone around here.

What type design competition do Typophiles feel is the most prestigious, the results of which best represent that year's finest type designs.

I think the TDC is the most prestigious annual competition, and having been a judge I can say that it tends to attract a generally high level of work, much of it from experienced and professional designers. Overall, the Morisawa prize was more presitigious for the winner -- and licrative --, but it wasn't annual and has now been cancelled. The most prestigious competition of recent years was probably ATypI's bukva:raz!, but that was a one-off.

{Hey, you knew it was coming...}

Prestige? The number of entries to the TDC2 keeps falling year after year. So I'm sorry to say that I'm being proven right: it has major flaws. In fact three of them:
1) The cost to enter is simply too high for too much of the world. As a result, proven hotbeds of type design talent (like South America - just check out the Morisawa results) get shut out, making the results of the competition less valid. The TDC needs to implement a variable fee based on country of origin, exactly like ATypI membership has now become. The way the TDC uses the word "international" is the way baseball uses "world series"...
2) The judging is too rushed (one weekend!), and this results in the ever-present bad choices among the winners, discouraging entries. Every year there's at least one winner that the bulk of people agree was totally misguided. It's tempting to think that every competition has this problem, but really, in the case of the TDC it consistently seems to go too far.
3) The judging is too "clubby". The TDC insists on flying the judges to and lodging the judges in friggin' NYC. Total waste of money.

The solution to #2 and #3 is exactly what Critique magazine did for their wonderful (and free!) competitions in the late 90s: screen the entries, weeding out the really bad stuff (optional, actually); send the remaining entries to the judges, instead of the other way around; give the judges plenty of time, like a month. Since fonts are adequately shown in one color, on a flexible and flat surface, you would save a lot of money (hence reduce fees) by simply rolling up the 11x17 sheets and cascading them from one judge to the other. Or you could ask people to send five copies to speed things up. Or you could send groups of entries to each judge and get them rotating. And hey, do conference calls if you think interaction among judges is important. ANYTHING is better than donating money to the airlines and hotels.

There are in fact other problems with the TDC competition, but they're not as bad as the three above.

--

Morisawa was super prestigious, and deservedly so - and it even allowed submission by emailed PDF! But yeah, it's over. Bukvaraz was wonderful, and another one would be even better (it could allow itself to start looking forward rather than back). Then there's the Linotype contest, which is now giving out cash prizes (although there are some strings attached). Note that all of them except the TDC are/were free.

--

The ideal competition would have modest (and country-sensitive) entry fees, be held every 2-3 years, and give a choice to each winner of prize+strings or just glory.

> what's up in France?

Maybe there's a surcharge for entries from those damn anti-war frogs... ;-/

hhp

Well, Hrant, I agree with you on everything accept for this:

3) The judging is too "clubby". The TDC insists on flying the judges to and lodging the judges in friggin' NYC. Total waste of money.

Hildebrant

I don't think the numbers for the 2003 competition add up. If you add up everything in the results, you come up with 143 entries. So:

2001: 135 entries
2002: 119 entries
2003: 143 entries
2004: 112 entries

Which isn't exactly 'year after year', but maybe a little spotty.

And 2000: 185 entries
Come on, Stephen, there's a problem.

> I don't count the ITDC as a contest

1) Then Morisawa wasn't a contest either?
2) Only the winners -and not all entries- are (potentially) bound to a license.
3) If it's like Morisawa, the exclusion is only for a year.
4) It's unclear if it would be illegal to end up selling the font yourself. Selling it to a Linotype competitor however would be illegal (and unethical, as far as I'm concerned, because of the prize money).

So in practice the bit about having to give your winning font to Linotype is more a tactic to convince, rather than coerce.

hhp

Yeah, it's much more strict than I thought. It's changed over time - but in both good ways and bad, like when I entered back in '97 (or was it '98?) there were no prizes!

Does this make it not a contest though? Anyway, that's just a terminological issue. What we should try to figure out is what most type designers want in a contest: fame, no strings, money, licensing, etc. Let's do a survey, eh? BTW, I've been trying to get the TypeCon people to do a panel discussion on contests for years - it's strange that they don't want to - it seems right up the conference's alley. I can picture Carter, Kegler, Montalbano and so many others being superb elements in such a discussion.

hhp

The Linotype competition attracts -- and is designed to attract -- new designers. Having just judged the most recent one, I can say that there were very few entries from designers whose work I recognised, and there was a lot of work from students. In the TDC show, a lot of the work is already familiar, because major foundries enter the most recent additions to their libraries.

I agree with Hrant that the TDC competition is expensive and that this discourages people from entering. It is even more expensive if you win, because you then have to pay a hanging fee and provide six copies of your work for the travelling exhibitions. One of the great things about the bukva:raz! competition is that it was free to enter and there were no hanging fees. But this was only possible with sponsorship from ATypI, underwritten to some extent by the advance from the Language Culture Type book from Graphis.

"you then have to pay a hanging fee and provide six copies of your work for the travelling exhibitions"

Which is ENTIRELY ludacris.

This is why I no longer observe, or buy the annual. (which I did 5 or 6 years ago)

> The Linotype competition attracts -- and is designed to attract -- new designers.

Well, I guess with that licensing clause that's natural. But it wasn't always so, and past competitions have in fact included "established" designers, such as Gary Munch and Akira Kobayashi.

> you then have to pay a hanging fee

What they try to avoid telling you though is that the hanging fees are actually optional! If you don't pay, you don't get to be in the traveling show (big deal?), but I doubt they'd exclude you from the annual. I wonder though if any winner has actually refused to pay, all these years.

hhp

> Posted by John Hudson on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 6:28 pm: > > ...One of the great things > about the bukva:raz! competition is that it was free to enter and > there were no hanging fees. But this was only possible with > sponsorship from ATypI, underwritten to some extent by the advance > from the Language Culture Type book from Graphis.

Don't forget the $15,000 that Conde Nast put up so the bukva:raz exhibition could take place.

Someone always pays.

>

> > Posted by Hrant H Papazian on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 7:18 pm:

> What they try to avoid telling you though is that the hanging fees are > actually optional!

More uninformed opinion concealed as fact from Hrant.

> If you don't pay, you don't get to be in the > traveling show (big deal?),

Five shows traveling the world. No big deal?

> but I doubt they'd exclude you from the > annual. I wonder though if any winner has actually refused to pay, all > these years.

I guess you will have to keep wondering.

> $15,000

You mean for the New York show? What about the other shows (like the one in Rome)? And I have to wonder, how much marketing value do the shows really have? An annual (or something like LCT) seems much more effective to me - but maybe "movers and shakers" actually do take enough time away from the shmoozing at the shows to pay attention to the exhibits? Dunno.

And sure, someone always pays (by cash, or by giving up licensing decisions, or whatever), but the point should be:
1) How to make the entry fees so they don't reduce the validity of the results (think South America).
2) How to allocate the funds efficiently (ie: not donate to Delta Airlines).

> More uninformed opinion concealed as fact from Hrant.

Wasn't it you who once pointed out on Typo-L that the hanging fees are optional? Or was it Gary? Or did that used to be the case but no longer? I definitely heard it from one of you guys.

> I guess you will have to keep wondering.

That's just great. It's certainly to your advantage for people not to know, I guess... It's like if they win they have to pay up because the consequences of not paying are undefined - sort of like a protection racket... That's New York for you, I guess.

--

It's such a shame: with its stellar membership the TDC has such great potential to hold the best type design competitions in the world, but it's consistently proving too stubborn, too unwilling to give up its mimosas, even if the results would be better type.

hhp

James:

Exactly what would happen if somebody who has a winning entry subsequently refuses to pay the hanging fee?

>

> too unwilling to give up its > mimosas, even if the results would be better type. > > hhp

Mimosa's? Huh?

Stubborn? Why because I don't agree with you. I have been listening to your suggestions on how to run a competition for 6 or 7 years now, and for the TDC, with our publishing deadline, the idea of sending work around the world to a set of judges so they can have as much time as they need, does not work.

I've run your idea past judges of the competition, and all have had the same reaction... "no way would I want all this stuff coming to my studio."

You seem to think that a weekend is too short a time to judge. After every competition that I have been around, I have asked the judges if they felt they were rushed or needed more time. Every one that I have spoke to has answered the same way. They all felt they had plenty of time.

Of the total number of entries, about half are dismissed by the judges in the first hour. So if you have 120 entries, 60 are gone. Of that next 60 half of those go in the next two hours. It doesn't take four people a month to decide on the remainder.

All the judges have very clear ideas of what is good and what is not. The discussions are very lively, and I wish everyone could eavesdrop because it is a valuable experience. I remember Matthew Carter saying that if he was in town the year following his judging would it be alright if he came by to watch, because he felt it was such an enjoyable experience.

Right there is another reason why it is important to have judges in the same place. They get something out of it as well. I think that bringing someone to NYC and putting up in a hotel for a couple of days is a small honorarium to pay in exchange for their expertise, and commitment.

As to Kyle's question about Hanging Fees. No one has ever refused to pay them. Since the hanging fee requirement is spelled out in the competition rules, they come as no surprise. People whose work wins seem generally happy to abide by the rules they have accepted. Considering the cost of other avenues of advertising and marketing, I consider the hanging fee that covers the cost of being in the annual and the shows to be a bargain, considering the reach they give the work.

If someone did refuse to pay I think it would be up to the circumstances. IF there were special circumstances involved then I think the club and the winner could come to some understanding. But if the person just refused to pay and offered no reason then I would take it in the same way as someone who tries to welch on a debt and they, most likely, would not be included at all.

Every year when someone brings up the TDC Type Design Competition Hrant begins his litany of complaints. I have tried to explain the reason the competition is run the way it is. I have grown weary of doing this every year for the last 6 or 7 years. This is the last I will speak of it. If Hrant thinks he has the answers, I encourage him to start his own competition. It would lovely to see him actually act on his complaints.

James,

Its well say! and I can confirm to have similar experience as type competition judge in others places as you explain it here. TDC do a great job on that. I kept my minor critics for next time we meet in real life.

Its mostly those* who never do anything by themselves who complain the most.

* only very very few in fact, but they take so much space on forums, that we see them too often.

Thanks for the full reply.

> I've run your idea past judges of the competition

That's good to hear. To me, trying is the most important thing.

That said, I still think the TDC competition clearly has a good deal of room for improvement, and the declining participation -among a BOOM in the actual practice of designing type- seems to support that opinion. Another reason to think there's room for improvement is that other competitions have found better ways to do some aspects of the job.

The idea about shipping the entries does have its drawbacks, I admit. But as for the fees, I think the least you can do is make it cheaper for people from non-affluent countries. Otherwise, "For type designers around the world, the TDC2 is the premier annual event to honor the achievement of type designers everywhere" is simply untrue.

> I consider the hanging fee that covers the cost of
> being in the annual and the shows to be a bargain

That's fine, and I probably agree with you! But we shouldn't try to decide on behalf of other people. For one thing, somebody -possibly a talented designer- from South America for example (it's clear they have many down there) might already be overstretched with the entry fee. As I've pointed out before, I'm not complaining on my behalf: I can afford the entry pretty easily. What makes me complain is a desire to see the results of the competition become more relevant, and become more of a reward-system for everybody with talent and dedication, not just rich people.

So if somebody only wants to have won, and doesn't want to pay extra for shows or being in the annual, I think you should try to accomodate that, instead of putting designers on the spot with an agreement they might find too commital.

--

BTW, these days I only complain about the TDC competition when somebody else brings it up. And I complain because it makes me sad to see wasted potential, that's all.

hhp

>For one thing, somebody -possibly a talented designer- from South America for example (it's clear they have many down there) might already be overstretched with the entry fee. As I've pointed out before, I'm not complaining on my behalf: I can afford the entry pretty easily.

Here's a suggestion for the suggestor: Then why don't you consider sponsoring a South American designer to enter and offer to pay the hanging fees for a winning design.

Heck, you could have your own little mini-competition to decide which South American type design you think has the best chance and warrants your sponsorship.

(And instead of flying yourself to Glendale, you could just mail all the entries to yourself. ;-)

-- K.

> why don't you consider sponsoring a South American designer

Because I'm Armenian.

hhp

Because I'm Armenian.

To clarify: does this mean you might be willing to sponsor a fellow Armenian? or that because you're Armenian you wouldn't sponsor anyone?


In addition to the points James made above, I would add that bringing all the judges together in one place is important because of the interaction of the judges in the judging process. In both type design competitions I have judged (TDC and Linotype) there was the sense that the judges as a body were coming to a decision, not that individual judges were making decisions and the majority ruling. This process is worthwhile, and is only possible when people are together to discuss the work before them.

Because I'm part of a repressed and threatened minority, I need to apply any "philanthropy" towards my own people first. I even feel guilty about the $40 that I gave to Typophile last year. And yes, I would be willing -and delighted- to sponsor a promising* non-affluent Armenian type designer.

* And "promising" from my own perspective. I'm not about to help somebody make more Latinized Armenian fonts for example.

> the judges as a body were coming to a decision

Yes, this is admittedly valid - I for one am a big fan of communication. But:
1) It's just another factor that has to be balanced. If the cost of getting the judges together is preventing meaningful competition results, then maybe it should be tossed? Or here's an idea: don't use one of the world's most expensive cities to host the thing! And here's another: do the judging where type people are going to congregate anyway, like at TypeCon.
2) It doesn't preclude doing part of the judging remotely/individually. There might even be an advantage to having a hybrid method, so judges can think both individually and with the benefit of the others - different people think better in different circumstances. So you could send copies of the entries to the judges, give them a week or two to build some preferences and pro/con arguments, then get everybody together to nail down the winners. In this way you have the communication, the shmoozing, and the better results too, without spending more (like you could make the final stage one day instead of two).

There's so much room for some nimble, intelligent improvement, instead of this seemingly monolithic and exclusionary thing we have now, I'm just surprised that the TDC competition doesn't seem to be adapting, even though the drop in participation is the strongest possible warning signal.

hhp

Actually the entry fees are affordable and the hanging fees are not so expensive considering that the price of a family and superfamly only represent a small proportional rise. Anyway some designer could find himself in trouble to cover the fees so it would be fine to have a special clause; maybe the hanging fee could be covered by the first typeface sales.