Typophile

Indesign help, indented paragraphs

wdeboer

Hello! After years I have picked up the type-setting skill again. The last years I have mainly concentrated on making Flash-based creations. Only this year I wanted to practice Indesign CS3 (learned working with Quark 4) by typesetting our yearly news-flash (family stories about 2007). Now I only happen to have some questions:

  1. Now I have set the paragraph first line indent property to 1p5. Only how can I cancel out this setting for the first paragraphs on the pages?
  2. Are there any rules regarding punctation in (sub)headers? Do these punctuations have to be aligned with the body text somehow?

p.s. I am not convinced it's in the correct category, if not. Please let me know!

(The document was set in the Scala family 11/13p in a four-grid system in two columns with 1.5 inch margin)

Hello Weyert,

Only how can I cancel out this setting for the first paragraphs on the pages?
Create another paragraph style (with properties based on your regular one, except the indent).
There you can also specify which paragraph style is next.
Then, you can select all of your text, right-click on your ‘first paragraph style’ and select ‘apply this paragraph style and then the next one(s)’ [sorry, I don’t know how they named it in English or Dutch].

That’s the CS2 way; I don’t know if there’s something new in 3 …
F

Hi Florian,

No worries, about the Dutch naming. I only used Quark and Indesign in the English version... I would become clueless if we starting to use the Dutch terms. Anyway, you are totally right, though. First I tried to get it working with nested styles, only that didn't work well. Because this feature doesn't support Paragraphs and the accompanying paragraph styles.

Beside of I have a question about the usages of em dashes. In the text there are a few sentences which use them, only one causes so bad flow. Anyway how to solve this (see pictures below) ? How could this problem be avoided or solved (easily) ?

The problem is clearly visible in the first screenshot where the dash is at the end of the line, which doesn't make it look better. Only the break is mandatory because it's the end of the column.


Thanks.

If the break is mandatory, there isn't much you can do about it, is there? I have never understood why a dash falling at the end or beginning of a line is considered so bad. There are a lot of "rules" that have come about because someone thought a particular situation would confuse a reader, or just looked bad. The usual argument against dashes at the end/beginning of a line, from an aesthetic point of view, is they weaken the text block. But so do ends of paragraphs, and we put up with that. Moreover, in the ragged setting you have shown, the text block has no clear right edge.

However, in your screen shot, the emdash appears to be spaced with a word space. If you are going to use such a long dash (em), space it with a hair or thin space. If you are going to use a word space around the dash, use an en-dash. Better still, a few fonts have a dash 3/4 of an em long, and that, thin-spaced, ties the line together rather better.

FWIW

The usual argument against dashes at the end/beginning of a line, from an aesthetic point of view, is they weaken the text block.

Additionally, some people claim a dash can be mistaken for a hyphen (when at the end of a line and being too short – not in your case) or a listing dash (when at the beginning of a line; like a bullet point, especially when there are several cases in succession).

I second what Charles said: your breaks take up lots of space. Emdashs can be quite elegant, but take care that they don’t tear holes in your text. The spaces before & after should be small and, moreover, even! (Look at the 2nd line: ‘Theorine —’ vs ‘Han   —’
F

Yes, I just had the feeling it looked a bit silly to have a dash at the end of the line. Anyway, about the spacing between the em dashes. I have learned that it should be em bash followed by a hair space. Clearly, those shown in the picture ain't hair spaces!

I should try to find my old watch list once received from the Typography teacher.

I have learned that it should be em bash followed by a hair space.

Yes, or alternatively an ndash with word spaces. I’ve been told former was the traditional Anglo-American way, latter was more common in Europe … In the end, it depends on your taste and the typeface in question: some fonts have a ridiculously short ndash that makes it unusable for parentheses, others show a very long mdash that looks odd in running text.
Trust your eyes, not the old watch list! ;°)

Yes, or alternatively an ndash with word spaces. I’ve been told former was the traditional Anglo-American way . . .

Actually, it was the Anglo way, not Anglo/American. Richard Eckersley (of British origin) use to have "discussions" with the editors at Nebraska Press, where he was senior designer, about quotes & dashes. Initially, he preferred the style common in the UK, where dashes were set as word-spaced en-dashes, and a single quote was used in places where those in the States use a double quote. We finally convinced him (honestly!) that a 3/4-em long dash centered in an em space (i.e., 125 unit l&r sidebearings) looked best of all. Never got him to change his mind about the quotes, though.

As you say, trust your eye.

I'm talking book work here.

The beauty of the 'Anglo' way is that it produces a more even colour on the page. An em dash, irregardless of the spacing, leaves a bullet hole through the page, and if there are more than two or three per page, can impact the even colour that we try to achieve with small capitals, old style numerals, and titling fonts for headings.

Captured from web.archive.org on 14 Apr 2012. view this capture