I think Alfon would do you well.

http://www.terminaldesign.com/retail_specimen.php?ID=1191&viewFam=1

Check out the pdf samples, lots of text in different sizes.

The new typeface, Plume from Dalton Maag is looking very sexy indeed. I think its release is just around the corner and would be well worth checking out. I'm sure it'll be priced in line with the rest of their faces.

http://www.leftofsix.com/typophile/plume.gif

What is the nature of the book?

Jonathan, we really need to know as much about the book as possible, like:
1) How long is it?
2) What is it about?
3) Illustrations: what proportion versus text, and what style?
4) What's the target demographic?
5) How readable (versus stylistic) do you want it to be?
6) What "structures" do you have? Like smallcaps, italic, etc.

Plume: That survey is certainly a brilliant idea. I just wish they asked our design opinions too. :->

hhp

The book is about botany.

It

It

I don't know about "not a compromise" (since all design is, especially text font design), but I might recommend FB Whitman, except maybe it's not very 21st century. It does seem great for botany though, and it's highly readable in long stretches (your case), plus it is "effortless". Another good possibility is FB Proforma, which is a bit effeminate and less functional, but more contemporary.

hhp

Jonathan

Type is the fountain pen of the gods.

My inclinations are opposite to most. What works for me may not for you. I never tackle any project with a fixed idea in mind.

Other than a glass of wine.
http://lanstontype.com/WineGlass.html

My designs are one of discovery, as you can see, I am a simple man without any ideas, or opinions. I suppose working with the narrow parameters you have chosen for yourself is for others more brave than myself.

Also if I were to, and I do, design books, the last thing I would ever do is ask anyone for help choosing a typeface. Taste is what will decide the success of book building. So if it fails, it is because of you. No book has ever won any award simply because it was set in the latest model type face. Type design, thankfully, does not follow any planned obsolescence marketing model. Recycling is good practice. We do not want perfectly good fonts leaching toxins in a land fill site. Do we?

Type design is steeped in tradition. Built to last for hundreds of years. Some, hard to imagine, but in this very forum, bitterly complain, that types designs hundreds of years old outperform the digital carnival that is coming to town. Type is an investment, not a Bic Pen throw away consumable.

Type is a language, dialects tend to stick around.

That said, maybe you should listen to Hrant. He is a rational man, hates artist and poets. But I think he likes wine.

So he can't be all that bad, can he?

Can I add my 2d worth as a constant user, not a designer, of books.

I find the typeface to be about the least important thing in whether a book is nice to read. How the type is set, and how it is printed, and on what paper, and how the book is bound -- these are far more important. Crispness and modernity are as likely to come from the design of the book, as from the design of the type. I have often seen two books set in the same type, and one is lovely to read, the other ghastly. This is down to the detailed typography, not the typeface.

I suspect that using a new typeface for a book is a leap in the dark. Very long text settings really stretch text types. Little tiny idiosyncracies which would be perfectly tolerable in, say, a magazine article, become infuriating.

I don't know how many books you have designed. But if the answer is "not many", it might be better to choose a typeface that is in common use so that you can look at lots of books that use it and learn its idiosyncracies. There is still surely plenty of scope for creativity in the many other (actually, more important) design choices to be made.

I agree with Paul that there are many other factors as (or even more) important to the design of a book as the text typeface. If those other things have been dealt with competently, however, the choice of a typeface can play a key role in determining the "voice".

And, as Gerald implied, the choice of a text typeface is often a very personal one for a book designer.

It is tricky to work with a new typeface. I often play for a long time with a new face, before I feel comfortable spec'ing it. When time is tight, I fall back on old favorites because they are reliable in the clutch.

But someone has to be bold and put these new faces through their paces, so good for you for wanting to explore.

Hrant did not provide a link above, so allow me to do so. Whitman may be seen and purchased at the Font Bureau site: www.fontbureau.com/fonts/font_frames.tpl?fontname=Whitman.

However, online showings are not so helpful for book types. A more extensive PDF specimen is available from my site: www.kentlew.com/Type/. The Whitman PDF has several samples in text sizes (9-14 point) with two different leadings.

Even this is not as good as seeing some real-world uses. Unfortunately, the books that I'm aware of using Whitman are all from relatively small publishers here in the States. I don't know that any of them would be on a UK bookshelf. The most likely would be Extreme Simplicity by Christopher and Dolores Lynn Nyerges (Chelsea Green Publishing Co., 2002).

I'll go one better than that, though. If Whitman fits your criteria and you would like to seriously consider it, then send me 1000 words of your sample text in plain text format and give me some specs -- trim and margins, or line-length, leading, and number of lines -- and I'll set you some sample pages in a couple sizes and send back a PDF file.

Best of luck with your project.

-- Kent.

Kent -- I hope you didn't take my comments as in any way hinting that Whitman would not be suitable. Whitman from what I've seen of it (never, unfortunately, a book) is probably a great text face. What is more, it is in a tradition of other great text faces. I'd love to see it used in some books.

It really can make all the difference in the world, even with a good typeface, whether it is used or abused. Some perfectly horrible things are done with wonderful fonts; some fairly respectable books can be made with nasty typefaces (though it's harder).

I wish Jonathan the very best of luck in choosing a font; may he both choose and use well.

Whitman

Type design is steeped in tradition. Built to last for hundreds of years.

Jonathan, never stop asking. Communication is what makes us human.

BTW, I think artists and poets are cute.

hhp

>Kent -- I hope you didn't take my comments as in any way hinting that Whitman would not be suitable.

Not in any way, Paul.

-- K.

Hrant,

I'm never going to get to "forum heaven" by changing the topic. Oh, well.

Do you know where Vallejo, CA is?

Boris?

hhp

Boris ! ?

Hrant...hahahaha!

I've never seen a book set in Tyfa, as far as I know. I would have expected it to be too intrusive (especially the f) for more than a few pages, but one never knows. It would certainly give a book a very "designed" look. But at least its fussiness is not "calligraphic" fussiness, or arts-and-craftsy. How are you finding it over the long haul?

More vocabulary question than a proposal?
" looking with a crisp cut."

Does Le Monde Journal is a "Crisp cut" type?
(http://www.typofonderie.com/alphabets/view/LeMondeJournal)

I think LM-Journal is definitely "crisp". By contrast, LM-Courier is maybe crisp in its structures, but not in its finish (but that makes it warmer).

BTW, your site was working fine for me (WinXP/IE6) until very recently, but now it looks like it looks on NS: a tall column of disjointed elements on a white background.

hhp

Hrant, thanks to confirm my early feelings.


MS6: I just checked, yes i confirm stop to work. Work well on Mozilla wind, Safari, Explorer 5.2 mac; Thanks for that we will lokk at it. Seems CSS stop to work only under IE 6 only.

Specially for Hrant:
http://www.typofonderie.com/gazette/hot_news/?id=43
thanks again.

Css corrected now!

(Last off topic post, sorry)

Fully serifed faces don't look 21st century, unless they are made a little too distinctive for extended book work.

So how about a semi-serif?

I'm not sure that "crisp cut" and biology go together, surely something organic would be more sympatico?

You can have clarity of form without razor sharp details, so I would recommend Sauna.

Two types that have what i'm looking for are Le Monde and Lexicon.

http://www.typofonderie.com/alphabets/view/LeMondeJournal
http://www.teff.nl/fonts/lexicon/lexicon.html

Does anyone have a sample of Lexicon, the PDF on the site does not print well.

E-mail TEFF and they will send you printed samples. Note the prices, which are the highest in the world, I believe. Great fonts, though.

I recommend neither of those for a book (sorry). You've picked two lovely fonts built for economy and small size (newspapers: Le Monde, and Bibles: Lexicon). Notice how short the acenders and decenders are. Great for narrow columns with tight leading, bad for books. The silver lining is, both offer a version that would work better for books. From JFP there is Le Monde Livre (see also the lovely Apolline). From Ensched

I haven't seen TEFF's Trinite used, but I think it is amazingly beautiful.

> E-mail TEFF and they will send you printed samples.

There's also the original Lexicon specimen book, available from Nijhof & Lee (16 euros, 32 pages, paperback).

Nick, I'm a big fan of the semi-serif*, but I don't think full-serif fonts are necessarily non-21st century. The wedge serif (like in Foundry's Form) I feel is very contemporary.

* Although there are very few of them, and most of those are too calligraphic (like Meier's stuff). FF Avance is a nice one, although a bit on the portly side.

Hey Jonathan, what do you think of this book face?
http://www.themicrofoundry.com/other/nour&patria/dev/nour-latin.gif
No, that's not the italic. :-)

hhp

As a book publisher I am sorry but I cannot help but take offense at the question "Can anyone recommend a serif type for use in a book?"

As if one book were the same as another.

The correct way to discover the right typeface is to read the text closely.

BTW, Gerald, Vallejo is in the San Francisco Bay Area at the Carquinez Strait where the Sacramento River enters the bay.

t christensen,

I have a purchase offer on this 63' vessel subject to personal inspection, survey, and sea trials. I believe a man needs a foot of waterline for every year of his life. So this vessel should be sufficient until I am 63.

http://204.212.231.3/landfall/

Edwin Schock designed her. The interior has been painted and requires stripping, refinishing and new cable for her standing rigging. I have restored several vessels. In Finland I am working under a master Scandinavian wood boat builder.

Anyway, Vallejo is where the vessel lies. I worried I was heading towards Mexico. I have been to Sacramento and Nevada city so I have seen the river.

Do you sail? I will be looking for someone foolish to join me and sail her to Greece.

Gerald

What an appealing prospect, sailing to Greece!

I'm afraid, however, that it may fall into the category of fantasy. But I am near enough to Vallejo to look at the vessel and take some pictures for you if you like.

t christensen,

I'm afraid, however, that it may fall into the category of fantasy.

I have never been know to use reality as a crutch. However, my fantasy of Greece is not working, I am freezing, I must get some wood.

I will return.

t christensen,

Henry Bullen and North Point Press were held in high regard, both for content and beauty. I don't remember the entire story, I think North Point was owned by a real estate mogul with sophisticasted ideas about books.

Look, I may take you up on your offer. I think however I won't need to, I am heading to British Columbia March 21rst, then to the vessel. But look, if you are in that area, should I look you up?

Finally, I am warm, and have had my first coffee. Can't write without coffee. Now I have nothing to say.

Except I need an editor.

Gerald

Absolutely. Not to sidetrack the discussion further, I will post you an e-mail.

Tom

t christensen

Post to sales[at]lanstontype[dot]com. I have not updated the typophiles data.

I don't mean to divert the topic too much, but does anyone know why Ensched

Jonathan,

I'd recommend Mark van Bronkhorst's Verdigris, which is not only an excellent face for text, but recently released.

Tyfa

I'm using Tyfa for a series of radical liberal books right now, and I thought it worked with the content. But, I guess I made that choice as a designer and not as a typographer. :^\

Do all of you find Tyfa to be to idiosyncratic for book work?