I’ve never interned, but... here’s my two cents’ worth:

You are there to learn, not just work for free. So I think that you will get out of it what you put into it. I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to say that if you ask people there questions, they will be willing and happy to give you answers.

If they sent you home early that day, that’s one thing. But if it was your decision to leave early, well, you also could have decided to walk around and ask if you could sit and watch the designers doing their job. Or other workers. You can learn about lots of different jobs there, and get an idea of the bigger picture. You can’t get that kind of knowledge at school, or from books.

I’ve had to do things I wasn’t too crazy about in my life, but each one of them was an experience that let me gain some knowledge... I’m sorry if I sound like a boring old fart! ;-) Design school was like that, too... What I got out of it was directly proportional to what I gave it.

Well there’s only two designers and the owner who directs, but I guess like anything, it is what you put into it.

Hmm... OK. Is this internship the only one that was available? I assume you are interested in this line of work, since you’ve expressed your admiration for their designs...

1) You could always look for another one... Mediabistro usually has some... So do Craigslist and Creative Hotlist...

2) Seeing what they do day-to-day may not be as exciting as looking at their end-products, but maybe that is a lessson, too: design has its boring, routine drudgery, just like any other job!

I had a thoroughly enjoyable work experience working with John Halas on a Leonardo da Vinci film – I would be given a brief on a scene and left to design it, sketch, draw up backgrounds and cells, write up dope sheets – the full process of animation with regular discussions and directions (not immediately apparent how useful this was for my subsequent career but the process is very similar). Not everyone in my year had great experiences but the general concensus was that the more effort they put into it the better the result for them, it seems to me you are looking for more than you are prepared to give. If there isn’t anything else to do – look for something yourself, identify an area that you think you can improve on, do some work and ask for a crit or ask to visit a supplier learn how a job progresses from design, artwork, through to print and finishing. (btw I didn’t want inspiration or influence when I was at college – I got it, but I didn’t seek it – put it down to youthful arrogance.)

Tim

I am wrapping up my second design internship, and in my previous career I had interns of my own. From what I can tell, most internships are not great, nor are they very interesting, but that’s not the point. At the most basic level, and internship is just a window into the working world, especially the white-collar office world, for kids who would otherwise have no job experience save retail and restaurants. By bringing interns in businesses are doing a favor as much to other businesses as they are to interns, because it creates a large pool of young workers who will not show up for the first day of work and be completely clueless.

I don’t think that interns are being done a favor. Most of them I’ve talked to just told me that this is the way things are done now and were resigned to it.

I feel sorry for someone who has spent $x,xxx.xx on an education that is expected to work for free to learn the “ropes”. Actually it’s probably more like $xxx,xxx.xx.

Internships, as far as I know, were started by Congress. So consider the source…

But if that is the way it is, then I suppose you have to play ball. I just find it sad.

pbc

Wow Paul, internships sound pretty dire out there in LA. Here in DC getting internships tends to be a big deal; every the city swells with kids right out of high school and college students who are starting on their careers.

Of course, in DC skilled internships are often paid, especially in organizations that don’t have a prestigious name to put on a resume. I can understand why students who get stuck designing for free would be pretty pissed about it.

Just remember this is home of the entertainment industry. The most “glamorous” and “happiest” place on earth.

People have no idea what it’s like until they are in it, so it is highly desireable. So you go to Cal Arts and study film with the dream of being a director and you end up being a tech working 80 hour weeks for 2-3 months and then being out of work, sitting in your apartment drinking and thinking about your next big movie.

Everyone east of the Mississippi goes to NYC to get abused and everyone west comes here, where we are just as “friendly”.

I don’t think there should be such a thing as an unpaid internship, I think it should be illegal. Of course since Congress started this practice I guess the idea of a law being passed is pretty slim.

I don’t use interns but I will hire inexperienced designers (school or no school) if I like their porfolio and more importantly, them. They are on “probation” for 3 months, at the end of which they are evaluated and given a performance review. That’s more how I think it should work.

I feel lucky that I came up before business adopted the insane idea that people should work for free…

pbc

thanks so much.

I’ve had two great internships, and many that were all at least not terrible. One of the great internships was in Providence, RI, the other in Germany. I’ve always been paid well when working as an intern, too, which helps, I guess.

Aside from the experience and knowledge one gains from an internship, there are also very valuable opportunities for making professional connections that can be very beneficial in the long term. When I was just a wee lassy, I interned at this crazy place called Punchcut, met a handful of type nerds via Typophile, et voila! I am now employed there and call many of those nerds my friends. :)

um, from the other end: i’m hosting an intern right now, and from a tiny agency consisting of two designers.

sometimes it’s really difficult to kick myself out of our daily grind, remember where’s-that-kid-with-my-latte (that’s what we call him) is coming in, make sure he has something to do. i told him when he started to make sure to holler when he’s not getting what he needs. he does, and it’s cool. i think he’s picking things up.

if you’re not getting what you need out of your internship, pipe the hell up. the designers you’re working with may simply not know wat you expect to be doing, and without any real job desciption, then you’re pretty much the pickup kid until you start showing some acumen in something.

I think the word ’internship’ is latin for ’one who pays their dues working for peanuts’

I had a fantastic internship and am often (justifiedly) suspicious of folks in our trade who have not. I learned far more in two years of actual practice than I did in college, and am very thankful I had that apprenticeship / internship experience.

Personally, I feel that a true apprenticeship with an experienced typesetter is often a better education than most undergraduate programs can possibly hope to offer. It’s just a sad reality, in what I have seen of undergraduate design education in the United States.

My own experience was with a blue-collar job printer and typesetter who had ink and machine oil in every pore and knew the ins and outs of every single piece of letterpress or litho equipment in use from the turn of the century to the mid 1980s when I worked with him. He did get cigar ash in the hellbox so my daily chore of distributing all that type was not a pleasant one, but he was a helluva guy and an inspiration to me. It wasn’t until I took a class or two with typographer and pressman Lee Engdahl many years later than I met someone else who inspired me the same way.

I was lucky enough to be very young - still in high school - during this time, and living with my parents, but I can understand it would be a big risk to go without pay for a period long enough to have some value. However, if young people interested in book arts have the opportunity to study with folks like Lee, Jim Sherraden at Hatch, Peter Koch, David Goines, the folks at Arion or Yolla Bolly, etc. - I say live like a monk and do it, as you’ll have skills that nobody else of your generation will have, and you will be much in demand for them throughout your life.

Joshua

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jlt : http://www.hewnandhammered.com

I’m glad to say my 2 internships were interesting, informative, and paid. They were special opportunities that came about due to where I was going to school, and the connections that were made and strengthened during the internships were as important as the technical and workplace experiences I gained. If the recessions of the 90’s hadn’t come along, I might have gone back there to work after graduation.

One thing that probably looks worthless to a recent grad is the whole aspect of office interaction; professional behavior, I’ve realized, is not necessarily a given even at the most prestigious film studios, ad agencies or publishing houses. And learning to navigate the office politics and to behave professionally are skills you simply can’t pick up in school. So while it might seem dreary to work for peanuts and do uninteresting grunt work, as with anything in life, You get out of it what you put in.

Ask questions, act interested, keep your eyes open, listen to people talk. Ask yourself questions and see what you find out. One thing everyone likes is initiative, so if there’s nothing going on, ask for more work, see if something on the back burner can get done, organize the library, improve a process, help out any little way. It’s likely to make a good impression.

I think the word ’internship’ is latin for ’one who pays their dues working for peanuts’

there’s another side to that statement as well: it takes a lot of time to get a green designer up to speed on even the most basic issues, like workflow, client communication, and phone manners. if i, as an employer, am paying full wages to someone who needs to be guided at ever step, it’s a liability.

i always pay our interns, but not much. i also cap how long they can stay with us before making a step of some sort.

I just finished an alright internship. I live in Toronto and it’s almost impossible to get hired right out of school. I think agencies are nervous to hire noobs in case they can’t handle the stress. There are almost no paid internships here. Only one of my peers from school is getting paid in hers, and she had to move to newfoundland for 3 months.

Honestly I was a little annoyed near the end at not getting paid. I was lucky to be in a shop where they let me do real work and pitch to clients. Until I started winning the accounts, and made my agency thousands of dollars which I saw none of. I don’t think I’m hot stuff or anything, but it would have been nice to have a little tiny bit of compensation. I didn’t really need the first time real world experience since I freelanced through school, I needed to put an internship on my resume which impressed real employers and got me several good offers. So all and all it was okay.

When I grow up and have my own agency I will pay the interns.

There shouldn’t be internships - there should be jobs. I don’t believe that anyone should work uncompensated ever. And if someone is compensated, in my mind that is a job. It could be a temporary job, or a job with a probationary period, but it’s still a job.

If someone wants to hang around with someone they admire and learn from them, I call that mentorship. I have no problem with that. I wouldn’t mind doing that myself in a certain circumstance.

I know this is all semantics but the very word internship leaves the possibility that someone out there is going to put out the stick with the carrot and in doing so get a bunch of work for free, typically the work that no one else wants to do.

In the entertainment industry it happens a lot.

pbc

Paul is right.

There is a difference between an apprenticeship / mentorship and an internship.

I’m pretty sure that AIGA and others have taken a pretty hard line against agencies that do not pay their interns. As they should. I’d like to see SOTA do the same thing.

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jlt : http://www.hewnandhammered.com

okay. so i guess by that definition what i’m doing with my kids is apprenticeships. not internships.

The AIGA has taken a stance on this? Is this a new thing? AFAIK, if you are a rock-star design firm, odds are your interns are working for free.

Which, in a free market, more power to ’em, I guess.

>I’m pretty sure that AIGA and others have taken a pretty hard line against agencies that do not pay their interns. As they should. I’d like to see SOTA do the same thing.

SOTA paying volunteers!? That would increase the conference fee to $300, maybe even $400 ;-) But you know, I really could use the money.

At one point during my internship I was working on a web development for a fairly large law firm and they paid their interns a starting wage of 80,000 Canadian. That made me sad.

Haley, just do what I did. Convince a lawyer to fall in love with you and support you financially :)

As for the AIGA taking a stand against unpaid interns, I’ve never seen anything about that, although I know that plenty of the important AIGA muckety-mucks have made it clear that they do not approve of any unpaid design work, save pro-bono stuff.

I had a great internship at the Guggenheim museum. It was unpaid for undergrads (I think grad students got a stipend) but they had lots of programs - seminars, field trips, lectures - for us so we could learn various aspects of the museum world. I loved it.

I generally steer my students toward paid internships. That way, if they’re stuck making scans or proofing copy, they’re at least getting something for it. But I’m also pretty selective of the internships I introduce to students (as well as of the students I recommend for internships). I look for good fits. And many have told me that the internships were incredible experiences.

It’s not working for free, it’s “schooling for free”. Not only that, but it is the best schooling you can get. Nothing better prepares students for the real world like, well, the real world. And just like school, you usually get out of it what you put into it. But, on the same token, there are good schools and bad schools. But in the end, that choice is up to you.

I interned for free, quite a while back, and frankly, it was the best thing I ever did. I was hard for me to see that at the time, but in hindsight I realize I was “taught” many valuable things (such as time estimating and management) that schools normally overlook.

My .02

Hildebrant

oh- i agree that there are some terrific opportunities in unpaid internships. but there are also a lot of people who call my office asking for interns, when what they’re really looking for is free labor. “can’t you give them college credit?” they’ll sometimes ask. while there are a few places i would go to work at for nothing even today, at this point in my career, it must be said that unpaid work for the sake of unpaid work is not always either beneficial to the student or even feasable.

but still — internships are wonderful! get the right one, with people who can teach you while respecting you, and it can be the greatest experience to start off a career.

Good responses guys. I looked around for a wide range of possibilities for this summer, and when I didn’t get responses or anything I wanted, I went with this cothing label.

I mean, I sitting one on one with these people and they’re showing me how they’re working on graphics and whatnot, but at the same time, they aren’t well paid and aren’t there for the long haul.

Either I’m in a good spot being one of three designers in the office, or I’m stupid, interning for a somewhat dead-end job.

That’s great that you all got some real world experience and enjoyed yourselves. However I will never buy the logic that it should ever be unpaid (unless you are volunteering for a cause you believe in).

Before the internship scam was created what you are talking about was called an entry level position - which was paid. Until the Congress of the United States figured out that college kids would work for free to be in the halls of power. And then business caught on.

So you spend thousands and thousands of dollars on an education and then you are expected to work for free to learn how the real world works? There is something seriously wrong with that equation. Either the real world is screwed up, the education system is broken - or more likely - both.

So I suppose it is a necessary evil now that Pandora’s box is open - I’m in the music industry and I have seen plenty of them come and go - but I just don’t believe in it. I think it’s a system that is far too easy to exploit.

pbc

I generally agree with Paul: work should be paid for. But there’s also there’s a question of when you do your internship (work experience in the UK) and how long for.

I did 2 weeks in a graphics studio when I was 18, it was in school time and therefore I didn’t expect to be paid (I think they bought me lunch and bus fare). I did a lot more shadowing than actual work, although was pretty annoyed when they never sent me a copy of the leaflet I’d contributed logos to. They were upfront that they couldn’t keep me busy all day and I was encouraged to use their materials and facilities for my own project.

After university (architecture) I was looking at the TV/film production industry and realised it was a case of working for nothing for many months, possibly a year or two - only an option for those with other ways of keeping themselves afloat. Classmates were doing the same in architecture - admittedly it was a recession - it was assumed if you were keen enough you’d do it and live somehow. I recall one guy working part time as a bricklayer building Phase 1 of a project, and part time drawing Phase 2. Still the same situation, at least in film/TV.

For me, it all boils down to whether it is really an indefinite junior job or a fixed term educational programme. Junior workers need somewhere to live and food to eat.

My work experience was paid, not a huge amount but it covered rent and travel with a bit left over. Because it was part of the course the college vetted every employer, and were able to tell placements what to expect.

Tim

Although i am a designer now, my internship was in a painting studio (i have to give a shout out to my mentor, Kent Williams). I can attest that it was one of the most rewarding experiences i ever had. I learned more about design watching him paint for a month, than i did in all of my college education combined.

I highly disagree that people MUST be monetarily compensated for their work, because education costs SO much more than $14/hour, and for the most part, i think an internship is more valuable than any other type of education. If your internship sucks, at least you know where not to work, which is in itself far more valuable than money. Dedication to a career or craft isn’t about being a wage slave - if i thought like that i never would have gotten into a creative field!

An creative person who works only for a paycheck probably isn’t worth his/her paycheck!

My biggest gripe with unpaid internships is that, due to rapidly rising costs of education, many students simply cannot afford to take on an internship. I know a lot of young designer students who are not in the financial position I am, and because even good intern pay is still horrible, those students spend their summers working in retail and waiting tables because they can make more money. If the majority of internships are unpaid, especially in the big cities where rent is astronomical, then we end up widening the divide between the upper class and everyone else as only kids with wealthy parents will be able to afford a good intership.

Jpad - i think your gripe should be against the schools for costing too much, not the employers for giving away free education!

I’m always amazed that students don’t revolt!

I’m always amazed that students don’t revolt!

Student revolts don’t have a very good track record of inciting positive change. It would, however, make a lot more sense for businesses and their often well-to-do owners to do a little more than gripe about why they keep importing workers from nations where more people actually attend school.

i don’t know of very many “well-to-do” design firm owners, at least not in relation to the pay scale of college-board members!

Lets not forget that we’re lucky to be in a field where the majority of firms are very small. I don’t think i know of many firms with the resources to pay interns, but they definetly try to teach whoever they can. Most design firm owners are working designers, not just “business owners”.
Besides, lest we forget, colleges are businesses too.

Also, Student revolts actually have done lots of good - at least when they are done responsibly. Just recently a student revolt at Gallaudet University lead to the replacement of the college president who was appointed despite a spurious track record.

I’m amazed that a couple of comments here indicate that people learned far more during an internship than in school. The next question is obvious - then why school?

It’s not just students that should revolt.

pbc

i don’t know of very many “well-to-do” design firm owners, at least not in relation to the pay scale of college-board members!

No, but plenty of big corporations have their own design staff, and designers are hardly the only people having trouble paying for school. But I was referring more to the heads of Microsoft, Intel, and other American businesses that want as little taxation and regulation as possible, but then blame the state of America’s schools on the government and demand access to more H1-B workers.

Just recently a student revolt at Gallaudet University...

The nominee actually has a very record and Gallaudet is in the toilet because the board too often caves to student pressure instead of keeping standards high. After those student protests the agencies accrediting Gallaudet realized how bad things are over there and started threatening to pull the school’s accreditation entirely.

...then why school?

Well, not everyone goes to art school to be a designer. I just went because I was sick of my career and I stumbled into design because I wanted to do CG fine art and my schools fine art department is extremely anti-computer. And if we didn’t have anal-retentive type teachers out there, who would teach students to not use fake small caps?

The Galludet thing - The students should have the right to demonstrate when they disapprove of the management. A school is a business not a government - in the end the customer is always right!

H1-B workers - i think its good we bring in new talent. Its much better than moving the jobs there. Speaking from what i’ve seen, American students don’t always make the grade - and worse, many act like a good job is their birthright.

I HATE my current internship. I worked more interesting jobs in the real world, doing design. I’m presently working an internship for no pay, and what’s worse, I have to pay my school for credit hours. I’m actually only doing it for credit hours. I haven’t learned anything from my internship, so I read books at work to stop my mind from rotting.

that’s a drag, nathan. what books are you reading?

(if you really hate a place, you can always leave a raw fish somewhere inconspicuous...)

Sam-

i have to say something. education is not business (no matter what bean-counter administrators may say). and in education, ESPECIALLY, the ’customer’ is not always right. there’s nothing that drives me to a rant more than that position. in fact, i think the biggest problem in education today is that sentiment. it’s completely misguided and detrimental to the concept of learning.

Sam, let me put Chuck’s sentiment in a bit different way: the complication is that there is more than one customer. One key group of customers in the case of state-supported schools is voters and tax payers, who pay the biggest bill. They want students to come out as responsible and productive citizens. Another set of customers are the parents who pay tuition. Another set are the students. These don’t necessarily want the same things.

Some students, for example, mainly want to get drunk. Is it then the job of the school to give them free beer?

In particular the idea that students know best what the curriculum should be is wrong. If they already knew they wouldn’t have to study.

I have been through the student power protests and arguments in the ’60s. The sound thing is that students should have a voice in college governance, especially in matters affecting student quality of life. But they should not have a dominant voice, and they should not determine the curriculum. They are only one constituency, and often they don’t know better than the others what is best for the educational mission of the University.

I’m glad you have that attitude Chuck - and of course you’re right.

My wife has that attitude also. She teaches at USC. Believe me the people who make decisions there do not have that attitude, it’s obvious in their choices.

And that is the nature of the educational beast.

pbc

anyone ever have a great internship?

Right now I’m interning at a small clothing label I like, and while I like the clothes they make, and the designs they do.....

I work on various things like linesheets and stuff. Its really loose and open ended, and too much I think. I’m going in two days a week, and the other day I went in, sat down to work for two hours, and then left when there wasn’t anything else to do.

I really like the guy who runs the brand, but I’m not too inspired or influenced by the designers I’m actually working with?

I’m not getting paid, and sometimes, I just ask myself, what am I doing?

Am I mistaken that there’s awesome internships out there?

Am I mistaken that structure is overated.

-

Any more comments for my situation?

the people who make decisions there do not have that attitude, it’s obvious in their choices.

And that is the nature of the educational beast.

Paul-
The problem is (in my view) that the nature of the beast has changed recently, because of new pressures to feed the beast.

Academia is not running most higher education (US or Europe); bottom-line accounting is dictating — to the detriment of education — faculty, curriculae, course offerings and even grading. Since ancient Greece, higher education has held a place separate and above the fray of commerce, but that has changed in recent years. We’ll have to see where we end up.

As for evilfran’s concerns that we aren’t addressing the question: I think we are precisely addressing the question. But to make it more clear: look for an internship (and it may be this one) where you feel challenged. Look for an internship where you feel you are —despite your inexperience — respected, at least on some level. Look for an internship where the contacts you make and the experience you gain is the most valuable thing you take away from your stint (regardless of pay) and you feel richer for the experience.

When I was doing my Masters (1998-2000), we were allowed to get credit for working a “preceptorship” — whether you got paid or not was up to who you were working for and what you were doing. In my case, it was being assistant curator for a major museum show, where I did a lot of work with the budget officer, wrote grants, edited the catalogue, and did a bunch of other project management and creative stuff.

Wrote, and got, one grant specifically to cover my “salary,” which paid me a rather substantive amount and also meant receiving straight As. ;-) Worked my butt off too....

I went to a part time design school, where the idea was, that one should work (paid, but not very well) at the same time. So it was lessons in the morning, late to work for 6-8 hours (in my case first window displays and shop ads in a department store and later in an advertising agency, cut and paste daily ads, a regular entry job back then), then back home to do the school homework till late. It was very educational but hard, no worries about what to do with the non-existant free time.

I find a system where you work unpaid unbelievable. I doubt whether anyone would agree on working for free in Finland (not counting in charities and voluntary work here).