Whatever it is, it is considered you. There is no one and only way to work. If it doesn’t bother you, keep doing it.

ChrisL

Should you happen to get curious, or stumped, don’t be afraid to look around at what others are doing, and conject why they are choosing those solutions, if it helps you get back to your thing. It’s like supermodern historical research. Otherwise, goodness, don’t worry about it!

PS: Don’t forget to fully document your thought process on your latest work here. :)

As a design student, I do my best to reject what’s being produced by most working designers, and I do an inordinate amount of historical research. So my stuff is devoid of centered type, ornament, swooshes, swirls, concentric circles, random unrelated photos and/or illustrations, texture, damage, and wear. As a result, nobody ever gets to accuse me of following trends. At least contemporary trends, anyway.

I do, however, appropriate ideas from movies. And I absorb a great deal about layout methodology from books and magazines, but that’s much more picking up the why than borrowing the what.

The exception is those designers at Experimental Jetset. They’re just so cool that I get their stuff stuck in my head for weeks, but they’re on the same modernist vibe that I want to be.

I agree with Dezcom. That being said, I like to know what’s going on out there in the design/type world, while trying not to be blinded by it.

Fwiw, Miles was very serious about what others were doing.

I read that he punched out a guy at a bar who was talking while Maynard Ferguson was playing. No warning, just cold-cocked him. A just sentence, carried out in real time. (Trumpet players always revered Maynard back in the day)

Miles was pretty much on his own planet.

I am not a type designer so hanging out here doesn’t really qualify as checking my peer group - I like the thought process that goes into type and I learn from that and just the glyph (the microcosm of what I do).

At a certain point you have enough influences and it’s time to stop practicing and start playing - time to get into the philosophy instead of the technique of any given art form. That’s my take anyway - I know there are millions of ways to work.

I know in music that the technique should be a non-issue by the time you’re in your mid twenties (there are exceptions), if you’ve put in the time, at that point you can play whatever you want, then it’s time to decide just what that might be. That’s when the philosophy of music becomes the thing - which in turn becomes the philosophy of life itself, which in the end is the great work.

The sad part about what we do as designers is that the damn techniques change all the time, not like playing an instrument at all.

pbc

The sad part about what we do as designers is that the damn techniques change all the time, not like playing an instrument at all.

Fundamental techniques do not change, it is the tools of implementation, and the techniques related to them, that do.

Agreed - but I think it’s a shame that we have to run the technological rat race to accomplish what we do.

pbc

Paul,

Stay with classical music and don’t sweat the technology :-)
Opera singers don’t even use a microphone.

ChrisL

Oh man in my next life definitely a singer - no equipment to carry and the chicks dig it… :)

pbc

> no equipment to carry and the chicks dig it… :)

Even if you look like Mick Jagger.
; )

Even if you look like Roy Orbison!

ChrisL

I never heard of Roy Orbison having a reputation as a ’ladies man’, like Mick Jagger.

I recently heard an interview with somebody who worked with him on a recording. Apparently during rehearsal he would sing sotto voce, and the musicians sort of forgot about this puffy guy who stood still like a rock and sang in a mumble. Then they turned on the tape, and out of that same nondescript, immobile guy came this soaring voice of such exquisite beauty that they were just stunned. They forgot to play, and had to start the recording again, if I remember the story rightly.

Indeed Roy was the man - in country for me it’s Marty Robbins. His voice soars in a similar way.

pbc

Most people only know him for “El Paso”. A friend told me his neighbor would play that song over and over all day, so he has a hard time enjoying it.

My tactic for situations like that is to open the windows and play along. I guess they don’t like my playing, because this usually results in it being turned off just when I am starting to have fun.
; )

“it’s a shame that we have to run the technological rat race to accomplish what we do.”

Ahhhhh. But here it is a huge part of the “art.”

Perhaps I should have spoken for myself. I’m not a type designer.

On the other hand computers are at such an early stage of industrial design that I think everyone who depends on one should be at least mildly upset. They malfunction far more than they should. If my new car was this reliable I would be looking for a lawyer.

So I think I will stick with my statement, especially after struggling with the latest ProTools upgrade and having Clarendon freak out on me in Illustrator today after I exceeded 600pts.

pbc

On the “technological rat race” I think we should consider ourselves fortunate to have it at our disposal. While it has convinced countless desktop publishers to think they’re a designer because they have some Adobe products (or Microsoft Word, for that matter) it is more of a good thing because lots of people can experiment on their own without ungodly production costs.

Creativity wise, I agree that as long as you’re OK with what you’re doing then it shouldn’t matter. I don’t pay too much attention to what’s going on with other designers but I should... visual stimulation is good whether it comes from the 1800s or 2007.

I also agree that there has to come a point in an artists life where you say “to hell with it” and focus less on technique and more on expression. Musically, I think your technique can constantly be developed, if you want to. It’s a process of reaching a plateau and then resting there then climbing to the next one. The more skilled you are the longer it takes to reach the next one. I think that transfers to the design world as well... you can still improve your technique even if all you’re doing is experimenting and expressing.

And then there is retro-technique — I’ve spent most of the last week demonstrating something that dates back nearly 30,000 years, and now need to learn something that’s barely 1,000 years old to complete a project. ;-)

But you’ve got a good point, Paul: I can’t tell you how many times I’ve entered a competition of some ilk that has some very strange requirement. Whether it’s photo file size/res/dimension, goofy application form question, or something else, it makes life, um, interesting....

Unfortunately.

(And at the risk of being labelled yet again as “resident anal-retentive editor,” the proper spelling of this subject should be “Creativity and its implications”.....)

> (And at the risk of being labelled yet again as “resident anal-retentive editor,” the proper spelling of this subject should be “Creativity and its implications”.....)

Good catch...I am glad to have it pointed out, since it slipped right by me.

That’s what I mean about the implications… :)

They are fraught with - implications.

Since I’m in a program (Photoshop mainly) 8 hours a day - 5 days a week - for 16 years or so it has become very natural and I can accomplish most anything I can think of. So I suppose there isn’t a tremendous disconnect between my imagination and what I’m capable of - which is another way of describing technique.

But I spent 13 years practicing guitar and now 27 years playing it - and that hasn’t changed. The fundamental techniques are the same. Has my technique changed? Absolutely, but only as a function of what I was trying to do artistically.

I find the familiarity of the guitar very comforting as opposed to Adobe’s 18 month release cycle. I don’t have to look at the fretboard to play.

In the end I will always put music above my career, thankfully I have something like that. There are absolutely no marketers involved in my music and that’s a good enough reason for me.

And Linda - you’re a freak - in a good way - but you knew that… :)

pbc

And while I’m at it I have complete and utter disdain for “careers”. I don’t have a career, I have a job. A good example of this happened to me just yesterday:
I told my MD that I was very happy about a layout I had done - she said yes, you should be, the boss liked it, and I explained that what made me happy about it was that I had figured out a way to present text in a new (for me) and interesting fashion. She looked at me quizically.

And so it goes.

pbc

> She looked at me quizically.

I imagine anyone interested in fonts has seen that exact look.

Imagine an MD telling you how proud she was of her rectal examination technique. You would give her at least a quizical look. We do what we do. Only those who do the same kind of thing can really understand though.

ChrisL

Fonts...Female Dr. giving great rectal exams...

Ok, that explains it all.

And Linda - you’re a freak - in a good way - but you knew that… :)

And darned proud of it. ;-)

My only competition is myself. Is this considered healthy? :)

Nope, not by a long shot.

First of all Creativity ain’t a battle ground. And second of all Creativity is just a journey - a personal journey of discovery - which is ’part of the main’ (as John Donne would say). And third of all, Creativity ain’t your personal Jesus.

I respectfully disagree. In theory what you have said is completely true - but applied in the corporate workplace it does become a battleground. When you are surrounded by careerists whose entire motive is to please the boss it is hard to keep it “real”. It is the easiest thing in the world to let that journey become one of pleasing others, instead of discovering what you are capable of.

So there is an eternal battle that creatives fight in the face of a capitalistic society - when they love you don’t believe the hype and when they hate you believe in yourself.

My attitude keeps me pushing myself instead of copying others - but I suppose this is a very American approach to this problem.

pbc

My attitude keeps me pushing myself instead of copying others - but I suppose this is a very American approach to this problem.

Only if Americans have a monopoly on independence. ;-) (And they didn’t, the last time I looked....)

There are, I think, a number of different facets of “creativity”: most, although not all, people can master the a, b, c steps, but it takes real vision to transcend technique, and that, at least to me, is “creativity.” Sometimes a person can have the vision, but struggle with finding the right medium in which to express it.

I personally look only at cave drawings for inspiration.

Perhaps I understand the question better with more context, Paul. I was originally seeing it in a Type/Graphic design perspective, and more specifically, in a client/creative worker relationship.

It is no more dangerous to look at contemporaries for inspiration, than to look at a specific moment in the past. In the now, there are rough diamonds that others bring to the surface, in the past are buried polished gems. Inspiration always comes from somewhere. A broad historical study is smart. Researching a specific moment has a novelty quality that is marketable, but otherwise is roughly equivalent to emulating contemporaries (which is not the same thing as being aware of them).

If you only compete with yourself, you are guaranteed to succeed. And, to come in second every time. Not that that matters; I recommend exploring and challenging yourself, and just assume you are continually getting better if the new challenges are still interesting.

If you work is to affect anyone, they they are your client. In entertainment, people claim are looking for risks and surprises, so you have a leeway that other jobs don’t afford you. Even if there is no one else you want to reach or impact, then you are still your own audience. So, aside from habit or competence, what makes you listen to yourself?

Every now and then, do something you totally shouldn’t, aren’t prepared for, people wouldn’t know was you if they heard it, something that is possibly even just plain silly (or totally serious if you are generally lighthearted). Take it all the way, as if you were serious (or reverse). Projects like that sometimes teach things that you don’t even realize for a while, and develop “muscles” that you can flex inside your usual repertoire.

> It is no more dangerous to look at contemporaries for inspiration, than to look at a specific moment in the past.

Sorry Choz I will always disagree with this. My experience in the music scene made it pretty clear that most will look to their “peers” for inspiration, leading to a lot of bands that sound the same. Nirvana makes it big and suddenly there are 1,000 grunge bands. Motley Crue breaks through and suddenly everyone is playing arena rock.

At least the history of design (or music) has a certain filter on it - that which is memorable as opposed to the ephemera of any given time. Music is exactly the same. Does anybody really still listen to Alice in Chains or Flock of Seagulls?

I don’t know about you guys but I am a sponge - I have to protect what I see and hear to protect what I design and play. And more than that I have to protect my intentions - they are the well of it all - whatever that is… :)

pbc

How do you shield yourself from modern design when we are surrounded by it? And isn’t most design visually recyled through out history anyway? I don’t see the difference in looking at a specific time period in the past vs. looking at work right now.

“A broad historical study is smart. Researching a specific moment has a novelty quality that is marketable, but otherwise is roughly equivalent to emulating contemporaries (which is not the same thing as being aware of them).”

Bingo

I live in Echo Park (the belly of the beast) but I do my best… :)

Actually pop music is incredibly easy to ignore - just don’t listen to pop radio or watch MTV - both things which I have avoided with gusto for years.

Design is a little tougher - but it can be done if you don’t look at your contemporaries work, especially for inspiration.

I am not a consumer of pop culture - I just design for it - and I find that an interesting contrast.

pbc

Design is a little tougher - but it can be done if you don’t look at your contemporaries work, especially for inspiration.

Unfortunately for true artists, commercial success often is with odds with trying to spiritually probe the fringes, or breaking through to something new. I am sure you can think of as many examples as I can.

I hope I don’t seem too scrappy, just trying to understand your method. Just for the record I don’t listen to the radio and I do own a tv, but it’s not plugged into any cable. I do however spend the majority of my time on the internet doing.. stuff.

If you design for pop culture, yet you don’t look at it, how do you know you’re relevant? How do you keep up with technology? I just really don’t see the point in choosing to discount an entire generation in sole favour of other historical time periods. Especially in design history where everyone borrowed from eachother anyway, same as today.

I bet you only do it to feel superior to my generation :)

I do a lot of historical research.

You’re in tune with the times, if Myfonts’ top 50 is anything to go by.

Paul:

Actually pop music is incredibly easy to ignore - just don’t listen to pop radio or watch MTV - both things which I have avoided with gusto for years.

ROFL! Me too, even though I volunteer at my old campus station, where they think Arcade Fire is far too mainstream. :-)

Design is a little tougher - but it can be done if you don’t look at your contemporaries work, especially for inspiration.

No, no, please stop making me laugh. An overwhelming amount of design that will endure from this time period (if any does!) wouldn’t be anything I look at, and certainly not for “inspiration.”

That’s not to say that some (not much) isn’t any good — in fact, there is brilliant work out there — but most of it reminds me of when PageMaker first came out and everyone thought they were a “designer.” Not. (“Hey, like, I can use like Photoshop and like FontLab and I like have a band: like I’m like awesome.”)

I am not a consumer of pop culture - I just design for it - and I find that an interesting contrast.

Ah, and here is where we differ. I neither consume or design for “pop culture.”

It’s so, um, passé. And if one feels the need to design for the “current” culture, then they are too far behind the wave already....

Haley:

I bet you only do it to feel superior to my generation :)

Nah. A lot of us old farts can’t even be bothered anymore. ;-) It’s just far too easy to laugh at it....

Nick - the current trends are driven by marketers - whose current “theory” is that the “tweeners” or Generation Z or whatever they call them are afraid of the future. They feel “safer” with old imagery - hence the explosion of “Coca-Cola” fonts.

It’s a wacky world and we are merely demographics to the suits. And they need people like me whether they like it or not.

NOT is the key word, along with NEED…

pbc

By the way Hailey - I am not discounting your generation in any way - I’m just not interested - there’s a difference. I do however design for your generation (I think).

If you look at my original post I said I was insular - I have been for years - so if that is “discreditation” I have done it to many more generations than yours.

I keep up with technology by pounding design boards - I’ve done it for years - almost all the talk is about the technology - not the essence of what we do. That suits me fine but I also like discussing the large approach.

How do I know I’m relevant? I have no idea what that means really. I do stuff and it’s put out. I don’t really consider that some sort of validation. My life is not centered around that particular part of my life. Yes, I like it when my designs get out there and I like getting paid to do it - but if I had to look there for relevance there I would be severely depressed. As it is I’m only borderline… :)

btw - Linda - is discreditation a word? It is now…

pbc

Creativity is of us. It’s an integral part of who and what we are. It is not something you ’become’... same said for ’Talent’, but I’ll leave that one alone for now.

Competition is an entirely different thing and is completely irrelevant to Creativity. You can’t modify influence reduce etc., etc., Creativity. Either you’re creative or you’re not. Working conditions has nothing to do with who you are - or what you are for that matter. Creativity is completely by it’s self. Creativity is an innate substance. Ok?

But you can bury it. I’ve seen that done. And you can also release it - I’ve seen that done too!

When you are surrounded by careerists whose entire motive is to please the boss it is hard to keep it “real”.

If you really wanted to “keep it real” you would drop that job and do something... else. And believe me Paul, I know what I’m talking about. I’ve seen guys pay that price with their very lives - that’s “keeping it real”.

My attitude keeps me pushing myself instead of copying others - but I suppose this is a very American approach to this problem.

Nope, sorry. it’s not an American approach at all. It’s the approach taken by an Individual ...a very Canadian thang ;) Welcome to the human race.

I thought Nirvana was a predictable response to the whole 80’s scene. Dylan on the other hand is the ’real’ deal.

When you insert yourself into a capitalist system you are automatically competing Hiroshige. That is the nature of the design brief. Should I get another job? Of course I should and so should everyone else.

Creativity? You cannot hold it in your hand, it’s name is almost not worth speaking.

If you desire to see what’s real then look into the the waters reflection because the world is upside down.

Talent? A blemish on cliffs of black granite.

Nirvana to me was regional hard rock - immemorial material that every kid in some god forsaken town played. Very normal actually. Dylan was indeed the man - for better or worse…

Frank Sinatra in 1966 on rock music:
“It’s the martial music of every sideburned juvenile delinquent on the face of the earth”.

Jethro Tull on pop music:
“It’s a good way to steal children’s pocket change”.

Van Morrisson on pop music:
“Music is spiritual. The music industry is not”.

I happen to be caught in the latter situation.

pbc

When you insert yourself into a capitalist system you are automatically competing Hiroshige.

Yeah ok Paul, but that has nothing to do with Creativity. You were Creative at birth, long time before you had to get ’a job’. Find a way to make it work, to subjugate your Creativity comes at a heavy cost.

Morrisson is indeed a groove.

I am not complaining Hiroshige - I was discussing the way the I have to make it work in a tricky situation. But like I stated previously, design is not my primary passion - so while I take it very seriously I don’t have an existential crisis over it.

I do have a very defined philosophy…

pbc

I do have a very defined philosophy.

Good luck with that.

the current trends are driven by marketers

In fonts, it’s type designers, art directors and graphic designers who drive type trends.
We have no suits (at least, I can’t imagine Grant Hutchinson in one.)

I have a suit, but no one makes me wear it.

“Music is spiritual. The music industry is not”.

Reminds me of a quote:

“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There’s also a negative side.” - Hunter S. Thompson

I was just joking about the whole superiority thing. I’m younger than most here but everyone has been very nice and supportive.

I’m going to go watch youtube, listen to the radio and flip through cmyk all at the same time now :)

btw - Linda - is discreditation a word? It is now…

It’s not listed as a noun anywhere I’ve looked — granted, I didn’t look all that hard! — but it’s not a poor construction, and certainly would parallel anything one could do with “accredit” as a verb. Since “accreditation” exists, I can’t see any reason why “discreditation” couldn’t. :-)