How about putting devil's horns or a devil's tail on your black sheep. In addition to what you described, I think of an enfant terrible as being a bit of a provocateur, a thorn in the side of respectable society. Horns might not really read properly though since some sheep do have horns.

Or a baby/devil?

An "enfant terrible" is ideal for mixing cute with hardcore...
Take anything cute (this can be a teddybear, a lettercube,... or something more symbolic like a heart) & set it to fire! Lock it in chains, tattoo it, pierce it! Basically, go nuts & have fun!

And besides, is a black sheep applicable to other people when they think about an enfant terrible?

Hmm. Well, not to me. ;-)

"Black sheep" do what they do because they are intelligent, confident and competent to a high degree, aware that they are different than others, and aren't ashamed of it. Oscar Wilde is a pretty good example of one.

An "enfant terrible" is just a whiny brat, desperate for attention, and oblivious to the world around them (and vice versa). Find your own example. ;-)

Thank you for great ideas and thoughts about this! I have considered doing something with a devil - maybe an angel with horns, or is that too blasphemous? ;-)
The AD I worked with earlier suggested a little girl with pig tails holding a gun, but I'm not that crazy about weapons. ;-)
Linda - I totally agree with you about finding my own example, or interpretation of what it means to me, but I don't agree with your explanation of an enfant terrible. They're usually known as provocateurs, for example, "he's the enfant terrible of the art world". But then again, maybe a provocative artist is just a whiny brat looking for attention deep inside. ;-)

I think the difference is substance -- black sheep have it, and "enfants terribles" don't.

You can be almost as crazy as you want if you're a genius. ;-)

The Wikipedia says:
An enfant terrible, from the French meaning "terrible child", is one whose startlingly unconventional behavior, work, or thought embarrasses or disturbs others.

Tricky, that one.

The problem with the enfant terrible is that the behavior can actually distract you from whether or not there's any substance. It can be hard to get past the antics. But life without them would be a big bore.

All artists are looking for attention.

I don't agree with Linda's assessment of the black sheep either, the black sheep can just be the family f**k-up. It's not always a choice and they're not always looking for attention.

From wikipedia (just so we're comparing apples to apples - and not to pc's)
Black sheep is a derogatory colloquialism in the English language meaning an outsider or one who is different in a way which others disapprove of or find odd. This can be someone who has been shunned by others, or one who has chosen to be an outsider, due to actions and aims that separate them from the rest of the people or "flock". A typical example might be a family member who has chosen to follow a religion other than that of the rest of his family.

So as I see it, the black sheep symbol doesn't really apply.

Maybe a sassy baby sticking it's tongue out?

I come from a family full of black sheep and we resent that remark. ;-)

I am influenced by the Jean Cocteau Novel of the same name

Cocteau, Jean, The Holy Terrors (Les enfants terribles)

So my idea about the phrase is that the 'enfants terribles' is presnet to some degree in all children. To me that's the more interesting idea. It isn't a suggestion I know but perhaps a different spin will help. Also, the book is short & quite good I think.

What's the context for your project anyway? Why 'enfants terribles'?

immediately thought of him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struwwelpeter

Even Mark Twain had a go at translating this, included in his rather wonderful book "The Awful German Language".

http://www.shockheadedpeter.com/

The Tiger Lillies are amazing.

Interesting project.

I think a key element would be a tongue sticking out.

hhp

This is very interesting and certainly thought provoking. I have always felt (and called myself) the black sheep in my family, in spite of being deeply loved by my parents. I wasn't acting out and being a difficult teenager but I was the sensitive and creative one,
nothing like my pragmatic, down-to-earth, older sister. And then growing up I never knew what to do with my life - there never was a "straight path to follow" career-wise. I was always the bohemian, the creative, the impulsive, the one always sticking out and never feeling I belonged. I think this often applies to children who are more creatively talented. For me it was music at first, then design. My sister followed my mother's path and became a nurse. Life was always so much easier for her.
When I came across the words "enfant terrible" the first time I immediately could relate but now I don't know. I might be provocative,
flamboyant and go my own way, but never because I desperately need to assert myself or crave attention.

The project is jewelry (my own). One collection is called "Social Butterfly" the other "Enfant Terrible". The first is more subtle, pretty, feminine, classic with understated colors, and the "Enfant Terrible" is bold, flamboyant, edgy, and colorful - for people who like to stand out and wanting to be noticed. I chose these two "epithets" because they're so far apart and beause I can identify with both. I am so grateful for all your comments but it bothers me a bit that most of you have negative feelings about an enfant terrible.
That's not good consider I'm launching a collection. ;-) Maybe I should just go with Black sheep instead? ;-)

:-) There's a nice contrast there too, though -- a mammal/vertebrate with four feet on the ground vs. insect/invertebrate that flies.

I agree with you that there are a lot of negatives associated with "enfant terrible": must be that "more prone to toss a tantrum" aspect. :-(

But of course a true enfant terrible relishes those negative associations!

Charlotta, those are two great names for your jewelry lines.
Once in a while, I wish I were a woman. For a second.

hhp

Actually, I think "black sheep" has a more negative ring to it than "enfant terrible" although in a different, kind of depressing way. Even though Wikipedia clearly states it can come from a personal choice, I associate black sheep with empathy for a stranger, the quiet, shy kid in the back of the class that no one speaks to whereas I associate "enfant terrible" with the rebel (in which I can see the flamboyant colours working). To me an "enfant terrible" is a bit like a joker, provocative in a playfull manner much like the joker Jack Nicholson portrayed in Batman.

Don't drop the name. It has much more swagger than *black sheep*. How much mileage has Blue Q gotten out of negative connotations? Enfant seems tame compared to their tongue in cheek bad girl/rodeo/sacrilege theme.

Thanks for sharing about both lines. The contrasting labels seems like they give you more leeway with the design. I think you can play more loosely with Enfant Terrible, because the key is the contrast.

Spiders (brown recluse vs social butterfly), bettles, or bats might contrast well too. I liked pattyfab's suggestion of the sheep with devil tail. Got me thinking about mythological beasts and somehow Enfant Terrible says Dragon in Diapers to me.

Linda - I agree. There is definitely a contrast but at the same time something links them together - both being animals which kind of binds them nicely together.

hrant - I agree with you too! :-) Obviously I want a reaction to draw attention to my jewelry. And thank you for saying that you like the names, that made me really happy! :-) Do you wish you were a woman so you could make jewelry or wear them? ;-)

ill sans - I do think a black sheep has a slightly sad feeling about it whereas an enfant terrible is someone you at least don't feel sorry for. But at the end of the day I do think these two epithets belong together. Thinking of the context of jewelry, however, a black sheep might not be associated with color and edgy, bold pieces. This is really hard - I've been working on it for weeks and I can't come to a solution I'm happy with. Having said that, all of your intelligent and creative opinions and ideas really help. :-)

Wear. You don't have to be a woman to make jewelry.
Well, I guess you don't really have to be a woman to wear
jewelry either, but... it's different. And I like differences.

hhp

I believe François Truffaut had a movie by that name. - Les Enfant Terrible.
My favorite scene - a baby tumbling several feet down to the ground, from a 3rd or 4th floor window - and when he landed on his bottom (sitting upright) laughing, he said, "Je fai BOOM." It was out about 1973-74.

That was a enfant terrible image I have kept in my head -- forever.

I like this description from Merriam-Webster: "2. a usually young and successful person who is strikingly unorthodox, innovative, or avant-garde."

And here's something else I found from a swedish site. Love the picture - I think it's an album cover.

Apparently this topic brings up a lot of opinions/feelings.

How about a baby's dummy or rattle with horns or punk studs/spikes? It could make a nice design for a piece of jewellery too.

{Edit: FreakBabies03Temp600px.jpg removed}

I don't think of sheep as particularly sexy (unless you're a lonely shepherd I guess) whereas enfant terrible sounds more enticing - to me. I do NOT have negative connotations with enfants terribles - as I said earlier, they make life interesting. I guess I don't focus on the hissy fits as much as them thumbing their nose at convention.

So I'd stick with your first instinct, I like it.

And I'd love to see the jewelry.

Jon - I read that as "Steak Babies" and got confused!

Randy - Another insect is a great idea but I absolutely loathe spiders. But finding an insect that is the opposite of the stunningly beautiful and innocent butterfly is an interesting idea.

hrant - It goes without saying that you can make jewelry even if you're a man, but you could've meant that it's easier to make it if you're a woman - or a woman's jewelry would be more beautiful, creative, sensual, delicate, alluring. That is a way to interpret what you said.

An important aspect of enfants terribles is
that they piss people off for the hell of it.

> a woman’s jewelry would be more beautiful,
> creative, sensual, delicate, alluring.

I might like to mean that too.

BTW, I find spiders much more beautiful than butterflies.
Which is why I'm a text font guy, not a display font guy.

hhp

Patty - Enfant terribles do make life more interesting. I just read that they called Katherine Hepburn an enfant terrible. Who could be more representative? I have always stood my ground and I have never asked anyone about what to wear or what I should buy - I've always trusted my own taste and what I like. But now I apparently, at least according to all these marketing people and AD:s that I have worked with since I started my business, have to start to think about how other people perceive things and what kind of message I want to send out and how people want to FEEL when they buy something. I think it's so fake at times but I guess I have to play along. So, this is why I began to waver when I got all these opinions about how people perceive an enfant terrible. But maybe I have to take that into consideration?

An enfant terrible is not introverted at all.
She tends to care a lot about what people think.
How else could she intentionally piss them off?

hhp

I just read that they called Katherine Hepburn an enfant terrible.

She was certainly acknowledged (both by her and her family) as being a black sheep. ;-)

But now I apparently, at least according to all these marketing people and AD:s that I have worked with since I started my business, have to start to think about how other people perceive things and what kind of message I want to send out and how people want to FEEL when they buy something. I think it’s so fake at times but I guess I have to play along. So, this is why I began to waver when I got all these opinions about how people perceive an enfant terrible.

Totally understandable in wanting to "do your own thing" but good marketing means taking into account what will result in the most sales.

Who can forget when Chevrolet wanted to market one of their cars in Mexico but never considered that just because English-speaking clients would buy a Nova that in Spanish-speaking countries, "no va" means "it doesn't go"?

Big oops there.... ;-)

Phillipe Starck has been called the "enfant terrible" of the interiors/furniture world. I think it has wicked and fun connotations. I like it more than black sheep. Although I have a t-shirt that says, "pink sheep of the family" on it.

If you're gonna go with a spider it has to be a black widow.

It seems tho that Linda is the only one voicing negative connotations with enfant terrible. Seems like it appeals to most everyone else who's responded.

Linda - I hear you... :-) It's just that the whole marketing thing is totally new to me. I just want to be creative - the thought of being pushy and "selling" myself and my jewelry freaks me out! :-)
And I am too honest, apparently. I wrote an "About" text for my website and mentioned living in NYC and not being able to work beause I didn't have a working permit, (which actually made me begin with the jewelry business in the first place so it was very relevant), but I had to take that out because it gave the wrong impression and was too negative. I really have to question if people are that gullable? I have also been told that my jewelry can't be priced too low?! It's apparently all about the "feeling" an expensive item gives a person. :-)

It seems tho that Linda is the only one voicing negative connotations with enfant terrible. Seems like it appeals to most everyone else who’s responded.

It's the editor in me, and I doubt that the audience reading this thread are representative of the sort of clients Charlotta is hoping to attract . :-) That I'm also working to market more of my art, and thus it's a topic I have more than a passing interest in, also figures into the mix.

Yes, maybe there is a difference between my potential customers and the people in this forum. I have sometimes thought that "enfant terrible" might be too pretentious for "the average customer".

Depends on the sort of client mix you want to appeal to, I guess. Pretentious people pay more, even though there's fewer of them (well, not here....hahaha). ;-)

That's so true...probably me included. ;-)
I actually do think pretentious (perhaps a tad noveau riche) people pay more because they want to - and then go and flaunt it.

Just have to say that I looked at your profile and that I am deeply envious of you for having attended Parson's. I was going to study interior design there years ago but something got in the way (read boy trouble). Ironically enough, I ended up moving to NYC and lived on Fifth ave. at 14th street so I pretty much walked by the school on a daily basis. Boo-hoo. ;-) But good for you!

If you remove the wings from most butterflies, you're left with a rather disturbing looking bug.

Of course I wouldn't recommend doing that.

Setting aside the whole enfant terrible thing for a min, I want to bring up chocolate. Actually, in response to:
>> Who can forget when Chevrolet wanted to market one of their cars in Mexico...

I wanted to point out that that is a long-perpetuated myth. http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp

When it comes to Enfant Terrible, I guess I see it as a bit of an antiquated term, and this image comes to mind:
http://www.library.pitt.edu/libraries/is/enroom/juvenile/enfant1.jpg
If you are thinking insects still, perhaps the scarab is a good one to juxtapose against the butterfly, it's somewhat recognizable, and it's pretty much the opposite of the flighty butterfly.

{Edit: BabyDummy01a2Temp600px_6486.jpg removed}

Show off.

_________
Hiro

Terrifying children
http://www.raycaesar.com/friendlyFire/galleriaFF.html

Tim

Lherrou - I like the idea of the scarab, I've always liked the look of them. I even made a pendant of a carved scarab once, but will it make sense? Can one find a correlation between an enfant terrible and a scarab?

Wormwood - That is just brilliant! Maybe there's a future for you
as a jewelry designer? :-) A bit too hard core punk/goth for me but put it on a long, thick silver chain and I'm sure someone who's into that style would love to wear that around the neck. Very wicked. :-)

Tim - Very scary images but yet stunningly beautiful. I especially liked the one of the two children wearing those little "hats" with
horns. It makes me believe that they're not evil children, only dressed up for a masquerade.

Hiro - That's an hilarious picture, but again, it seems most people associate this epithet with something that's mostly negative - being loud, obnoxious, bratty and provocative in a way that isn't necessarily positive.

Tim's link reminded me of the work of Mark Ryden, some creepy stuff on his site too... http://www.markryden.com/
Don't know if it's on his site, but he made a painting of a little boy on a tricycle in a pink Nazi-uniform. Now thàt's a horrible child!

Der Struwwelpeter is one of my favourite (and a great source of my childhood's anxieties...)
"Oh, che schifo quel bambino!
È Pierino il Porcospino.
Egli ha l'unghie smisurate
Che non furon mai tagliate;
I capelli sulla testa
Gli han formata una foresta
Densa, sporca, puzzolente.
Dice a lui tutta la gente:
Oh, che schifo quel bambino!
È Pierino il Porcospino."

etc. etc. thanks, Franz!

What about Calvin (from Calvin & Hobbes)? Maybe you can try to find one of his great faces and reduce it to its essence. You have to be careful that it doesn't actually remind Calvin toooo much.

Lore - I need the symbol for my jewelry collection so I don't think that Calvin will work. Thanks for the suggestion though. :-)
I looked at your work and was very impressed - so beautiful and moving. I especially liked "Tree".

How about something similar to the rolling stones logo?

Yeah, pity about Calvin, I understand, it should be something more poetic.
Enfant terrible could be associated with "wild" I guess, so personally I'm not sure about the sheep thing. Even if it's a black one ; )

Maybe more like a crazy horse or any other animal that could have these wild/not tame connotations...or what about a whip? Sorry I'm not being very selective today!

And wow, thanks for your comments on my stuff, it means a lot to me. : )

>only dressed up for a masquerade
Oh, they probably have tentacles hidden somewhere, but evil-lovely, lovely-evil images.

Enfant Terrible is a term that has been thrown about so much that it has lost much of its meaning so all the above could be correct, almost defying definition, so here is mine – a student/follower who turns on the precepts of his/her mentor, but the title is ephemeral and can only be held until the student has students/followers of their own, after which it becomes insulting (Damien Hirst, David Carson).
Symbol – a pram with a tentacle coming out? Ronald Searle’s drawings come to mind
http://lambiek.net/artists/s/searle_ronald.htm

Tim

Lore - Yes, to me an enfant terrible is partly wild. There have been so many different interpretations on it which have been really stimulating and interesting but I guess I have to stick to my own feeling about what it is.
Your work is amazing so, you're welcome! :-) If I had decided to ask an artist to do my logotype - to draw something - I would've wanted something like "tree". Not too dark and sad, but with the similar poetic feel to it.

The obvious thing here for Jewelry would be a cartoon of a girl who is defiant, sexually provocative, and laughing at the world--with jewelry. It could work with her having horns and a tail, but if the drawing were good enough, it could be best without. If you want it to be more chaste, it could be in a frame with just the head, neck and hands in the frame...

The ideal I think you want to project is a girl who is not obnoxious, but who is defiantly independent, and having great fun being so. That's the 'good' enfant terrible.

Here's an example, from Leslie Cabarga's book, 'Logo, Font and Lettering Bible'. He was illustrating good drawing. The drawing is by Shane Glines. Cabarga says "You can't be stupid and be able to draw this well."

Enfant Terrible is a term that has been thrown about so much that it has lost much of its meaning
...a bit like avant-garde

a pram with a tentacle coming out
simply brilliant.

oops. getting used to this place...

I just glanced over 'The Three Incestuous Sisters', I guess the 'enfant terrible' would have an aspect of self loathing, an introverted hatrid that fuels the desire to malign, shock and disturb. I agree that the icon needs an aspect of beauty and grace, and I also like the 'insect' idea. A moth however is too ephemeral, the terrible child is far more robust and glistens in its own torrid glory. The beauty has to be ambiguous. I prefer a scorpion to a spider, and a whole octopus to a tentacle...

An octopus pulling the strings of a child puppet?

An octopus with malevolent rattles in each tentacle?

Then again, I prefer a squid to an octopus...

Searle's stuff is absolutely amazing -- Ralph Steadman is also similarly warped. ;-)

(edit: And Terry Gilliam....)

Tim - So one can't be an enfant terrible as a mentor/leader? If you are defiant and rebel against your mentor, couldn't you then continue to be an enfant terrible although you had followers? But now against someone or something else, society, for example? Or am I reading you completely wrong? I can see why it might be ephemeral since it's often an epithet applied to younger people and it feels a little sad and pathetic to be an old enfant terrible, but why not? (I know that's not what you meant with it being ephemeral). A pram with tentacles? That's certainly interesting.

Thanks Charlotta. I'm glad you liked my 'pacifier terrible'. It might be less hardcore if it were made as small earings. I would like to have a go at jewellery design someday.

Sorry to be negative but to me 'enfant terrible' is a rather tired phrase that I associate with the media hype that surrounded conceptual art in the 1990's. The phrase seemed to lose some of it's original meaning and power after that. I quite like what it means but just not very keen on the actual words.

Also, like any phrase borrowed from the French, it can sound pretentious, especially when attempting to say it with a French accent or otherwise it can just sound clumsy in your own accent.

Maybe something like 'Voodoo Child' would be more timeless and cool?

Hmmm. 'Baby Chrome' just popped in to my mind. Strange :)

Yes, I've thought about the risk of it sounding too pretentious. But then again, pretentious can be provocative and isn't that what I want? At least I want the attention. "Voodoo Child"? "Baby Chrome"?
I definitely think there's a future for you as a punk/goth jewelry designer! :-) But my collection isn't supposed to be scary. Colorful, flamboyant, edgy, bold, but not gothic and dark. ;-)

I just realised - speaking about languages and the phrases and words we borrow from each other - the English language has no noun for gloating. We have it in Swedish, and in German it's "schadenfreude" and in French it's "joie méchant". But why not in English? (But that's a whole different discussion...)

But my collection isn’t supposed to be scary. Colorful, flamboyant, edgy, bold, but not gothic and dark.

I thought 'Voodoo Child' was quite mainstream in a rock n roll way. Everybody loves Hendrix.

A true enfant terrible cannot lead, because she cannot be followed.

Jon, jewelry is pretentious.

Just had an idea leading off from the S&M pacifier:
What about a pacifier with a forked sucking part?
And I would get Underware to draw it.
http://www.underware.nl/site2/index.php3?id1=sauna&id2=detailsdingbats&i...

hhp

William - I like your interpretation. It's very similar to my personal feeling about what an enfant terrible is. "...defiant, sexually provocative, laughing at the world — someone who is defiantly independent, and having great fun being so. That’s the ‘good’ enfant terrible". And also according to Merriam Webster's explanation - "...a successful person who is strikingly unorthodox, innovative, or avant-garde." But to find a figure/symbol/image of this to represent a jewelry collection is very, very difficult.
What about a crooked halo? Is that too meek and cliché? I just don't want the figure to look too dark or evil.

Wormwood - I think that "rock n roll" isn't mainstream in the context of my jewelry collection. (Which is obviously hard for you to figure out since you haven't seen it). If the style of my jewelry was more "rock chick meets punk" it would be an absolutely brilliant idea. But my jewelry are not that "out there". This collection is for women who aren't afraid to "stand out" and be a bit colorful, but it's not like I'm using thick chains and leather. The pacifier earrings would be the perfect piece for a collection named "Baby Chrome" or "Voodoo Child".

Jewelry is pretentious? Elaborate, please. :-)

Noooo, I love enfant terrible. Just because it's French it doesn't mean it sounds pretentious to the rest of the world. Maybe this is an American point of view and I'm not sure Charlotta wants to conquer the average American. I find that using an English word could have a similar effect for some non-English speakers. And I don't think jewels are pretentious either. Not sure where this idea comes from. Anyway...I'm very opinionated today ; )

Crooked halo? Sounds intriguing, any sketches? I'm kind of in love with the pram thing. And the whip, except that the whip might be too erotic but it goes well with the wild/rebellious concept.

I don't think we have an Italian translation for gloating either, we borrow shadenfreude. I guess in Europe it's no big deal to use a word in French or German every now and then, it doesn't make anyone sound pretentious, just educated. I think.

I guess in Europe it’s no big deal to use a word in French or German every now and then, it doesn’t make anyone sound pretentious, just educated. I think.

I'm english, live south of the London metropolis and reasonably well educated, but I couldn't say it and keep straight face. Or risk getting beaten up for being 'gay'.

In English we also use 'schadenfreude', though in some contexts it would be pretentious.

To me the tentacle thing sounds like a terrible idea--what girl wants to look like an octopus?

The crooked halo could also work. I think the challenge is to hit the right note of being fun and cute--without being too cute or childish. A good illustrator hopefully could pull it off.

The basic concepts of 'social butterfly' and 'enfant terrible' line of jewelery is just fabulous. You'd better register the trademark get your jewelery out there before a big company steals the ideas.

cuttlefish mentioned earlier the idea of taking the wings off the butterly. I wonder if something along those lines would be a good solution to your problem of not wanting to get too dark with the bolder line of jewelry.

Perhaps alter your buttlerfly to the point that it is clearly a little "terrible"? Horns, bold colors, edgy angles on the wings? Then you'd get some consistency with your lines, but also say "this line is different. It's enfant terrible."

To develop Lindsay's idea a bit, what about a moth?

I once drew a heart with horns and a wavy tail,
a dingbat for my Domination Available font:
http://www.themicrofoundry.com/f_dominava.html

hhp

Rolling Stone is the status quo ...

Take a look at the BSD devil:

http://www.freebsd.org/

That would be something I consider to fit the term :-)

Sorry Charlotta, i wasn't trying to push you in an unsuitable direction.

I just tried to swap the words enfant and terrible with ones that I thought had a similar vibe but were less spoilt brat and were more bold and edgy. Yeah, Voodoo Child maybe too much. What about 'Wild Child'?

Bad pun warning: Misschievous?

Any logo could possibly limit the appeal of your brand so maybe consider just using a (custom?) type design and let the jewellery do the talking.

I'm sure we would all like to see some of your jewellery collections. Could you post some designs here?

BTW thanks for the inspiration. I may try designing some more 'Baby Chrome'. Fancy doing a collaborative collection sometime?

Well, as long as we're still open to other suggestions...
How about birds? A swan is the perfect symbol for feminniity (or is it maybe too Swarovski-like? in that case I suggest a flamingo as an alternative) & a parrot has that flamboyant (maybe even misschievous, the pirate link) thing to it. Just a thought...

It's interesting to see that most suggestions have something to do with the devil or being evil and bad. Tails, horns, tentacles, spiders, bats, and that might scare people off. I have to be - although I don't like this - a bit commercial. :-)

I just read in a magazine someone who said "Can't a bad girl be a good person?" and I like that. I have been "bad" - wild, flirty, partying like crazy, unfaithful, a bit promiscuous, always craving freedom to the point of insanity, but I have always been a good person. Not as good as I am today - older and wiser - but this is the
dichotomy I am looking for. Maybe an Eve luring you with an apple?
BTW - I am European too and I don't get away with using French phrases either. ;-)

what girl wnats to look like an octopus?

No need to apologise! I just tried to explain. I feel a bit fastidious and hard to please with all these brilliant ideas coming in and nothing "suits" me. That's all.

I think a collection between us would be very successful! :-) If I need to think about designing jewelry in that style, I immediately begin to think about several models/designs. It's what I did when I was an interior decorator, just get the feel of the clients style and decorate accordingly. :-) I'll see if I can find some good enough pictures of a couple of jewelry pieces to post.

Nice one, Cuttlefish!

> that might scare people off.

Only somebody who's not an enfant terrible.
Or really, somebody who doesn't want to pretend she's an enfant terrible.
Because that's what this is all about anyway.

BTW, Charlotta, please don't feel too bad reading this, but I think you have to stop believing you're an enfant terrible yourself. That might actually been good news, in terms of seeing your ET line more objectively.

hhp

In English we also use ‘schadenfreude’, though in some contexts it would be pretentious.

and then we have to explain what it means. I always use Martha Stewart as an example.

Charlotta - in terms of edgy vs goth, enfant terrible vs bad girl, maybe it would help if you could point to a celebrity or public figure who you could envision wearing your jewelry, or being its spokesperson. While I hate to bow to celeb culture, that might put us all on the same page. Are you talking Lindsay Lohan or Courtney Love? Edie Sedgwick or Paris Hilton? Blondie? Samantha from Sex & the City? Or none of the above, not even close?

Madonna's life's work.

Btw, in my annual report from Aber Diamond Corp came images from this guy...

Think about showing your work on different hand gestures which are eithered coloured bold and dynamic or left monotone and the background of the hand gestures has those 'stepping out' qualities. My middle finger graphic could do as a ring finger and cuff links. A peace sgin to show off bracelets or watches, etc., etc.

I think you're after a rock n' roll attitude.

________
Hiro

Well the debate is going on strategies of your brand and thorough its conception in a multiuser base. :-) Good luck on your designs Charlotte!

Your "Black Sheep" reminded me of something: black jeans campaign - an iconic piece of BBH's for Levi's with the "when the world zigs zag" strapline...

http://www.bbh.co.uk/clientAd.aspx?adId=242

A.

.

Hiro - Those pictures are stunning! It makes one feel incredibly small looking at jewelry from Harry Winston... :-)

I like the butterfly the best. It's funny because we initially had a picture of a piece and then the AD took an image of exactly that kind of butterfly and cut it in half, putting it along one side of the picture. That was really beautiful. Maybe I should do that again...

Well, I'm French and "Enfant Terrible" is, even in its language of origin, (over)used in the hype musical press to classify edgy artist. I LOVE the pretention/punkness of this word, I like "mouton noir" too... After all my name is "Dr. Duckling" after the "Ugly Duckling"...

So how would someone speaking the language describe an enfant terrible? There have mostly been kind of "dark" interpretations and suggestions about horns, tails, tentacles and sort of "devilish" traits to that image. What do you think?

Patty - I would be happy if anyone would buy and wear my jewelry! :-) But if I have to pick celebrities I like (their style, I mean), I would say Jennifer Aniston, Halle Berry, Katie Holmes, Michelle Williams, Naomi Watts, Amanda Peet. My collections are not outrageous. I picked the names for the collections first because I couldn't decide on one style and they were very different. I liked the names of the collections. It wasn't like a made such wild, crazy, over the top jewelry that I decided to call it Enfant Terrible.

>“dark” interpretations

My suggestion of tentacles coming from a pram was based on a literal terrible child, because the multiple understandings of the meaning don’t allow for one based on one meaning of the term.

btw your interpretation of my definition was correct, my feeling is that once an enfant has created an approach/form of working which breaks from the established norm, they then have to create a body of work to be promoted to the level of a mentor*, in effect one becomes a member of the establishment to a degree.

*(since we already have some french terms I’ll add another) alternatively one could become an éminence grise if one still worked out of the mainstream and influenced students/disciples. I don’t get beaten up for using french and german terms, but then my appearance discourages that.

Tim

ok, then. You win. But I don't think that simply translating enfant terrible to English would be a good solution but there you go. Hey, nice pieces Charlotta.

There’s no competition, my opinion is as invalid as anyone else’s.

Tim

Tim - Does that mean that your appearance is as dark (and threatening?) as your thoughts? ;-)

I most frequently use the French expression/phrase "fait accomplit" because that's not pretentious and it's a good solid phrase and most people understand it. Maybe at times "joie de vivre", which actually seems to be pretty intergrated in the English language. At least when I lived in the US.

Put it like that: It's ok to use French words (merde for example) if you say "excuse my French" afterwards.

Interesting. Here in Canada, though depending on where you are, you may well be talking to someone who understands French. ;-)

Maybe not as much here in the "speak English" redneck section (although that's changing!), but certainly in eastern Ontario, most of New Brunswick, and virtually all of Quebec.

It makes one feel incredibly small looking at jewelry from Harry Winston… :-)

I don't know why they should, if you're referring to the 'rich' quality of the images most of that is done in Photoshop using some basic techniques like HDR (High Dynamic Range) or DLP (Digital Light Painting), which are just two of the numerous techniques to increase the dynamic range of an image.
What I do appreciate about those images are the arrangement of the stones and the cut of the rocks (rhythmic patterns) of each piece and how they work with the 'model'.

__________
Hiro

Hiro - I meant feeling small in comparison with my jewelry and theirs. (I even feels pretentious to call my pieces jewelry at this point).

I understand completely what you mean - how well the pieces and the cut of the stones go together with each model. It's brilliantly done.
I can understand why they would think of a peacock and a butterfly in combination with jewelry, but a crow? That's unexpected and yet it turned out so well.

What happened to William's post?

hhp

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to second Hrant on his comment on you not really being an enfant terrible, Charlotta. It just seems a little out of context that an enfant terrible would consider horns, spikes or tentacles as being "dark"...
Honoustly, if you think a softcore characterisation of the devil is "dark", you should count yourself lucky you haven't seen any of my work yet ;-)
And in that aspect, a blàck sheep would not really work well to accompany a line of flamboyant jewelry.
I perfectly understand that there's more aspects to your character than we can tell from this (or any other) thread, but an enfant terrible would not really be too concearned about scaring people off, now would she? I mean, isn't that really the essence of being an enfant terrible? Provoking & shocking people, giving them the finger, sticking your tongue out...
Isn't worrying about the name and people's conception of it & the accompanying logo so much a bit of a contradiction in all this?

I do think that when Charlotta says something like "I would be happy if anyone would buy and wear my jewelry" she's missing the point of having a sober focus concerning the image of her work. On the other hand, you certainly don't have to be something to sell stuff to people who are that thing, and what something is called isn't all it's about, so it's not like there's a fatal flaw resulting from Charlotta's somewhat too chipper perspectives and desires. The key thing I think is for Charlotta to be clear about what she is, what her products need to be, and how her products should be perceived; to not pretend, even though she's the one making the products, that she herself embodies what the products should ideally be perceived as being. She is not the customer.

hhp

Hrant, both of my comments are above, at least in my browser.

I sure don't know much about marketing, but from what I see, selling women's clothes, make-up, and jewelery seems to be a lot about fantasy images.

I think Charlotta's names are great because they appeal to fantasy, not because they are sociologically accurate, either about her or anybody else. The 'social butterfly' is a beauty who flits about without a care. The 'enfant terrible' is also on top of it all, in a different way.

Real women--and men--are actually way more insecure. But you aren't going to sell them something to wear by saying "This is going to show everyone how insecure you really feel" :)

William, I guess I got confused.
Did you splice in the illustration of Cabarga's delicious little vixen recently?

As I said a while back, I do think the naming is brilliant. It's just a shame to see the Enfant Terrible concept spayed and neutered - and I suspect this let-down is what prompts people like me and Tom to exhibit a negative reaction.

hhp

Let me just state for the record that I am nòt -in any way- trying to be negative. I'm just being analytical at this point (after all the different interpretations we've read here about what an enfant terrible is, what do you expect?) & it strikes me as odd that the things the majority of people here associate with a certain term are not shared with the original poster. I encourage sharing thoughts & debating, but in this case it just seemed too much of a contradiction. Even Charlotta linked being an enfant terrible with rebellion & being independant although in naming & chosing a symbol for her jewelry, she seems a little overworried to me, but then again, this is indeed maybe more a question about marketing, supply & demand & chosing your main target group. However, all the above still applies to this since she's trying to attract enfants terribles & will probably have more succes in attracting them with a bold statement & dito symbol.

I begin to apologize for how long this reply is going to be but there have been so many comments made about this and about me that I feel a need to answer. Sorry. :-)

hrant - You tell me that I should stop believing that I'm an enfant terrible. Maybe you need a bit more humility in your attitude about this? You can't honestly believe that you have the correct answer to what an enfant terrible is? So how can you tell me to stop believing that I'm one?
My personal meaning of this phrase is similar to Merriam-Webster's.
A person who is avant-garde, innovative, unorthodox and also someone who can have an outrageous behaviour and make shocking remarks. I can relate to all of that. I also like to think it's a person who is strong, self-confident, courageous, creative, opinionated and not afraid to stand up for herself and go her own way. Maybe I am a soft version of an enfant terrible, but it's my personal interpration and that's what I feel that my enfant terrible collection stands for.

The reason why I reject all the tentacles, tails, horns and similar kind of images is because they simply do not "match" my jewelry collection or the design of my logotype and website. I simply don't think it's aesthetically appealing with a tongue sticking out, with a bat, a spider, or a kid giving you the finger. Has anyone ever considered that I just don't think it would look good? I am not
"overworried" in choosing a symbol, I just don't like the suggestions. An image of a woman - maybe a vixen, or Eve with her apple, or a princess with a crooked crown or some kind of animal/insect/bird that people can associate with an enfant terrible
would fit my design and my jewelry.

Ill sans - "...essence of being an enfant terrible? Provoking & shocking people, giving them the finger, sticking your tongue out…"
What's up with the frickin tongue and giving the finger? That is your opinion of what it is and it's so puerile. It has been said of various artists - "she/he is the enfant terrible of the so and so"- for decades and they're talking about people who are not just doing things to shock and disturb and disgust and create a reaction. They're talking about Katherine Hepburn, for instance, who was a brilliant actress but probably called an enfant terrible because she never married and had children, was a mistress to a married man, and voiced her radical opinions. She did not live her life according to the norm of that day and age. That is being avant-garde and shocking.
You do not have to put a living gold fish in a mixer and challenging people to press the button to be an enfant terrible.

According to you, an enfant terrible shouldn't consider the tails, horns etc to be "dark" and shouldn't be concerned to scare people off. Apparently you also think you have the correct interpretation of what this epithet means. First of all, it's about taste and what is suitable for my design. And shouldn't I care if I scare people off? I am not having an "happening" at a gallery where my first goal probably would be to shock and stir things up and get a strong reaction (and put that fish in the mixer) so that I could get as much attention as possible to feed my artistic ego. I am selling jewelry to make money. I can not afford to scare people off, so it's a tad relevant to me in this context. I am not on a mission, I am selling jewelry. But if I wanted to shock and stir things up it would not be an issue for me. I have for years been involved in Greenpeace, Amnesty International and PETA. If the context of this was to help animals, for instance, I would go to great lengths to shock, provoke, disgust or whatever I would have to do in order to get a reaction and bring awareness to the problem. Take a look at PETA's campaign against Kentucky Fried Chicken - especially their t-shirt of a dead chicken and the text "Want fries with that?". I would have absolutely no problem what so ever wearing that t-shirt to a black tie dinner if it could help in any way.

When I said "I would be happy if anyone would buy and wear my jewelry” I apparently was "missing the point of having a sober focus concerning the image of her work". (?!) It was taken out of context. Patty asked me what celebrity I could envision wearing my jewelry so that she could get a hint about the style of it. I mentioned several actresses and then I made that comment which is true. I have never done this before. I LOVE my jewelry but I don't know if other people will and I would be very, very happy if anyone would buy and wear it.
Please, don't turn everything I say into some psycho babble that just is so off base that it isn't even funny.

"It's a shame to see enfant terrible being spayed and neutered?" (??) And it's a let down for you two? Enfant terrible is a phrase that has been used for a long time by a number of people all over the world. You do not have the correct answer, nor do you have some kind of "rights" to the phrase. It has been incredibly interesting and stimulating to have this discussion about it in this forum, but you two are "let down" because everybody don't share your personal interpretation of what it means? I respect your opinion about this, why can't you respect what other people think?

I think I speak for the both of us when I say we dò respect what other people think, but you can't deny the fact that enfant terrible translates to terrible child & that in that aspect the majority of responses somehow links this to some kind of punk/rock&roll attitude. It's just a matter of doing the math & I'm very sorry that you don't seem to be able to do it for yourself. Maybe enfant terrible is just not the right kind of name you'd want to associate with your jewelry? There are probably not even 2 people in this thread that seem to agree to a definitive definition of what an enfant terrible is, but as you stated yourself, most of us associate it with things you don't want your jewelry to be associated with. But do you really think that the majority of your potential customers won't make the same assumptions when they hear the name? If the Typophile board is at all a little representive of our society, you can pretty much guess what people will expect from a jewelry line named enfant terrible.
And don't worry, your jewelry is beautiful enough to sell without a clever name or nice logotype.

This is what "enfant terrible" brings to my mind:

Emily the Strange

To reply to some previous comments -- I'm not sure the population here at typophile necessarily gives an accurate cross-section of the general population, much less of Charlotta's target market. We are a pretty peculiar bunch.

K.

BTW, I like the pieces. I am curious about how you are planning to sell them (online? consignment?). In my experience, the more outrageously priced and "unique" the piece is, the more you're likely to find some very, um, eccentric clients willing to pay your price.

It does seem that there's a lot of baggage and ambiguity attached to the term "enfant terrible". Maybe the answer is, rather than searching for a symbolic representation for "enfant terrible", finding a replacement term for that line that is closer to / more consistent with the image you wish to represent. Maybe (based on your mention of the term) "vixen" is one such possibility. Anyone else picture a svelte curvaceous fox with a 20's cigarette holder in her hand?

Sorry if I insist but you can't just translate enfant terrible literally. In English the meaning would be closer to "maverick", as Charlotta accurately wrote: someone that doesn't fit it. Forget about the litteral translation, serious, you're ruining it. : )

It's not really about a disfunctional child or a bolshy little tart or a psychobitch from hell, it's maybe more associated to a lifestyle.

Following Kristina’s Emily the Strange post, maybe something along these lines is more appropriate?
http://www.devicefonts.co.uk/cgi-bin/device2.cgi?action=bigpic&pic=logos...

Maverick doesn’t quite translate it for me – there is a relationship between the enfant and the mainstream to be considered.

Tim

Exactly, l'enfant is not the mainstream.
I found the fierce angel image a bit too pop, the essence of enfant terrible should be more intriguing, more..ouch-I-haven't-seen-that-coming kind of thing, more controversial, which is why I liked the pram+tentacle solution, because it creates a contrast, nobody expect something horrible coming out of a cute little pram. It's the contrast I like, that's why the crooked halo could work and the chrome object that Jon Greenslade posted (genius).

Let's face it: the fierce angel logo is just another pretty girl (a bit on the goth side if you like) with wings and halo, what's controversial about that?

Ill sans - "It’s just a matter of doing the math & I’m very sorry that you don’t seem to be able to do it for yourself."
Well, I have to give you credit for being incredibly condescending.
You seem like a very smart man but for some reason you do not get what I have been trying to convey several times now - you don't have the correct answer to what this means - nor do I or anyone else - therefore it is a personal interpretation and mine is being a strong, irreverent, unorthodox, avant-garde, provocative and courageous person who isn't afraid of going her own way.

This phrase originates from the 18th century and stems from a child who spoke openly and naively about things he had seen and heard, embarrassing the grown ups around him in doing so. This is what children do before they are taught the rules of society and how to behave. Obviously this epithet has evolved since then and rarely has something to do with age or being a child. If you want to be literal and go back to its orginial meaning I can certainly understand why you would pick an image of a brat sticking his tongue out, but that is not the way I see it. Why can't it just be a grown up who refuses to abide by the rules of society and who isn't afraid of being irreverant and strong and say her piece? And why does it have anything to do with punk/rock&roll? And why does it have to be represented by darkness, evil, tails, and something demonic? I never thought I would use this horrendous phrase, but maybe you should start to "think outside the box"? ;-)

As far as my potential customers go I think the majority probably won't know what an enfant terrible is. Or they'll translate it as the black sheep. They might think the name is hip or cool but I don't think they're going to mind that much. And the risk of "real enfant terribles" (like someone said) not wanting to buy jewelry from that collection because they can't identify with it, is very slim.

Thank you for the compliment about my jewelry - I hope it was sincere!
:-)

Kristina Drake - Thank you! This is the first time ever people outside the circle of my friends and family have seen my jewelry so it makes me very happy. :-) I'm selling it on a website that we're working on now. Hopefully it will be ready by the weekend.

Lherrou - Can you find an image of that fox for me? :-) And thank you for the help with the Perla thing.

Lore - I mentioned an angel with a crooked halo! :-) Just haven't found an image yet. I can't draw, that's a huge problem.

I am very sorry to defend my opinion again here, but I promise this will be my last post on the matter.
Charlotte, this is an open forum where people are asked to give their views and opinions. You raised the question of how we interprete an enfant terrible & well, by doing so you run the risk of coming across a few comments you might not have liked. But if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
As for my interpretation, I just think the name enfant terrible is not in place with your jewelry and the ideas you're trying to convey which BTW has nothing to do with its literal translation (I just mentioned that to illustrate how people who are not familiar with the term, but who do speak a little French might interprete it). The reason of this entire site is to try and help people who ask to be helped and I strongly believe you've chosen an unlucky name & by saying so I am only trying to help you. This is merely my advice to you and what you do with it is still up to you. It may not be what you wanted to hear, but (good) "advice" (and I use the term very loosely here) hardly ever is. The fact that I react to your response does not necessarely make me stubborn or not openminded. It only tells you I am very convinced of my view (as are you) and am only trying to defend myself and my opinions which I am entitled to and which you asked for. I've said this before, but I'll say it again; it is NOT -in any way- a personal offense to you, just a conflict of ideas.
And yes, my compliment was sincere. Sure, I'm a man, so what the hell do I know about jewelry? But I honestly thinks it looks very good & I can definitely see women wearing them. I'm positive these babies will sell themselves even without an accomying name or logo.

This is bad for you as it is not 'hip' at all, but it might give you ideas...

[from decaljunky.com]

You already know this, but you will have to pay a good illustrator to get quality work...

Charlotta, don't get angry. Grow.
For one thing, I think many of the things you think you are are most probably accurate. Just not all of them. Same with me BTW, but I try not to lash out at people who point out my "flaws" (which in this case might not even be one with you).

> how can you tell me to stop believing that I’m one?

It's quite simple: you don't seem to fit my own definition of the term (and I'm not alone). Which is not to say my own definition is "correct", but I'm the sort of person who's not a slave to dictionaries. And of course you can have your own definition. But the main thing I was getting at is that it's not your definition or mine that matters - it's your prospective customers' definition, and neither you nor I qualify.

> they simply do not “match” my jewelry collection or the design

That's totally fine, and I might even agree. But the point is, that might mean "Enfant Terrible" is not a suitable name after all. I liked the name because of what I thought your work would be like - but maybe I was being too optimistic.

> They’re talking about Katherine Hepburn

Which is totally ludicrous.
A lot of people (especially entertainment writers) use
terms -especially French ones- just so they sound cool.
The question is, what do your prospective customers think?
Hey, maybe you should do a survey?

> I can not afford to scare people off

I'm not so sure. Maybe you can't afford to leave them luke-warm?
Here's some French for you: Dieu vomit les tiedes.

> And it’s a let down for you two?

Yes, I prefer things keep their genitalia.
Surely a PeTA person can appreciate that.

> Why can’t it just be a grown up who
> refuses to abide by the rules of society

Surely you must realize that your "I can not afford
to scare people off" isn't exactly jibing with that.

> the majority probably won’t know what an enfant terrible is.

Then you should not use it. But I actually think
they do. And it doesn't match what you think it is.

hhp

I have skimmed through a lot of this but why not just use a wordmark and let people imagine what it means themselves? Since the name is so evocative, I think this is the way I would go.

Sharon

I think Sharon is on to something.
BTW, Kristina:
"We are a pretty peculiar bunch", thanks! ;-)

Ill sans - Yes, I asked for advice in this forum and I have had a great time reading all comments and ideas from a group of incredibly talented and creative people - you included. Why would I be afraid of opinions I don't like? I believe that it's a good name for one of my collections, so I honestly wouldn't care if every single person in this forum tells me it isn't. When I feel inside that it's right I don't budge and I have never fallen for peer pressure either. You are entitled to feel that I have picked the wrong name but I never asked your opinion about that.

If I have sounded too insecure or "concerned" it's mainly because I've tried to be diplomatic. (Which of course is a big no-no if you want to be an enfant terrible). If I were a client and I paid for your time I would be as clear and categorical as I am to people who know me. I immediately know when something is right as easily as I know that it's wrong. But I am in a forum with all these really nice people who are trying to help me - why should I be rude and brutally honest to them?

You emphasized that this is not personal but when you and hrant started to talk about how I should stop believing that I was an enfant terrible and talked about my "chipper" attitude, and how I couldn't "do the math" and figure things out on my own and other pleasantries, I think most people would agree that it got a bit personal. The good thing is that I don't care.

And as far as getting out of the kitchen? I have never backed out on a discussion and I have never taken it to a personal and unpleasant level. "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen"? Give me a break! I have done nothing but stood my ground and defended my opinions to you and hrant and I haven't been scared off or backed down or converted to your opinions, so what heat is it that I can't stand? This is YOUR last comment so I guess you're the one who can't stand it?

It's a forum where people can be helped - but do they have to agree with you as well?

Charlotta, you have trouble handling criticism. Know that Typophile
is not the typical idiotic nicey-nicey internet space. Try Flickr.

> I’ve tried to be diplomatic. (Which of course is
> a big no-no if you want to be an enfant terrible).

Bingo.
Except more than what you want, it's what you are that matters.

> I think most people would agree that it got a bit personal.

We are, after all, people.

hhp

> "I think many of the things you think you are are most probably accurate. Just not all of them."

That comment is so pompous and condescending that it's almost laughable. So you're giving back, I think everyone understands that.
(Especially the women). Very mature of you.

This is the last thing I say to you about enfant terrible - people are going to buy my jewelry or not based on whether they like it or not, not because of the name! You take it so seriously with your long rants about the meaning of it and bla bla bla that it just sounds pretentious and embarrassing.

And here's what I think it comes down to: I don't agree with you and your partner in crime (ill sans?), and I have the audacity to still stand up and defend myself AND on top of everything criticize and question you.
I am a woman so what do you do? (And this is classic). You talk to me in a patronizing and unfriendly way. You tell me that you know who I am but I probably don't know that myself. You accuse me of being "angry" and "lashing out" when I have done nothing more - in fact less - than what you and the other guy have done, except for the fact that I didn't begin to be nasty. (And I think most people who read our communication perceive your remarks as lashing out at me). The only problem is that it isn't working on me. No one has ever managed to bully me or make me back down. You have just proven to be a very pretentious man with zero humility and probably big cracks in your self-confidence. My opinions and the fact that you couldn't make me think like you were apparently a big bruise to your male ego. Get over yourself - this was supposed to be a fun thing. You're not on a mission trying to convert people to your beliefs.

And here's something I want to share with you that I have learned in life; (and remember, don't be angry now. Grow.) A happy, self-secure, harmonious, self-confident person with a lot of insight in him- or herself do not talk to people like you do. It's just unpleasant and you have participated in ruining a really fun, interesting and stimulating discussion with a nasty attitude.

hrant - That was one of the biggest projections I have ever experienced in my life. I have problems with criticism? Fine, if you call standing my ground and not waver and having to defend my opinions for having problems with criticism than I have huge problems.
And what about you - in all your humility - do you think you handle criticism well? It's going to be very exciting to see when you've read my last reply.

Apparently, I'm not the only one having problems with you, I was adviced how to handle you long ago by someone at this forum. I did exactly the opposite and that's what I'll continue to do so bring it on if it makes you feel better. Got to dash! :-)

Back to the name and the symbol... I think Sharon (amI remembering right?) Has the right idea, too. My problem with using a black sheep (not that it sounded like you were really into it) is that it is somewhat like a mixed metaphor, "black sheep" having its own meaning and interpretations. Similarly with any other symbol, precisely because (as we see in this thread) specific definitions of "enfant terrible" vary; it might be best to go with the name and let it conjure whatever image the prospective client associates with the term. It is catchy and funky and has a certain attitude that people will probably find appealing without an added image. The word mark could be embellished.

Just my two cents, coming from the side of the fence that doesn't really care what the term literally or otherwise means exactly. I think it sounds cool and catchy. Am I pretentious? I'd buy something from a line called "enfant terrible" if I saw something in it that also fit with my style.

K.

Charlotta, you're reading into what I write whatever makes you feel better about yourself. You've been here just over a month-and-a-half; if you think anything can be "long ago" for you here, we have less in common that I might have thought. Your convenient assumptions about me might be safe to make in the types of places you frequent, but they are incorrect in my case. I am unlikley to be comparable to anybody you know. For one thing you have no idea how thick my skin is; if you're excited to see my reaction to what you've written, I'm sorry to disappoint. And if you think I'm praying on you (because of your opinions, or really any reason) you have me mistaken for somebody who cares a lot about you and what you think (even though you're a woman). If you doubt any of this please ask like a half dozen women who are long-timers here. And I don't mean the feminazi one.

In short: Your gender is not a problem; your bull-headedness is.
BTW, bull-headed does not equate to enfant terrible.

> people are going to buy my jewelry or not based on
> whether they like it or not, not because of the name!

You are fooling yourself. You're smart enough to know
that everything matters, not least what something is called.

> That was one of the biggest projections I have ever experienced in my life.

I'm happy for you, but I'm not impressed.

> Got to dash!

You'll be back.

--

If your emotional fallout from this argument further impedes
your ability to assimilate criticism, that would be a sad loss for you.

hhp

Notice the ring on her right hand, bold stone and silver wire ring, replete with an enfant terrible attitude? This image comes from Tens.

In the world of fashion my man McQueen is it, Galliano somewhat and Versace only on his best day (RIP). On canvas Jean-Michel Basquiat.

hrant post of Romany http://typophile.com/node/32111 is a great example of a type 'stepping out'. Look at that cap 'E', and the lc 'h' still knocks me over.

__________
Hiro

As they exclaim with enviable impunity at the
Westminster Dog Show: that's one fine bitch.

BTW, I found my hornéd, caudate heart, and to my great surprise it has a cross
in it as well! Clearly, for an extra dimension of duplicity, that opium of the soul.

If anybody ever launches a jewelry line called Sister Succubus, let's talk.

hhp

I am emailing from abroad so I can't post pix but I just saw a great ad campaign for a jewelry store in Paris where they took classic art masterpieces - Botticelli's Birth of Venus, Gauguin Tahitian women, Degas dancers, the like and very artfully photoshopped in models and jewelry. I'll post images if you like when I get home.

Charlotta - having skimmed the above, I say let it roll off ya, stick with your instincts. I like the name enfant terrible altho I can't say Katie Holmes strikes me as such (she's more like the pathetic puppet) and your jewelry is beautiful. It may be that a wordmark is the safest way to go, as someone above suggested.

Pearlstreet - Yes, I've been thinking about not using an image because nothing feels right.

Kristina Drake - I agree. It's absolutely a mixed metaphor with the enfant terrible and the black sheep, but that was the only thing I initially could come up with and why I turned to this forum for help.
Any suggestions for embellishing a word mark?

Hiro - I love that font - I might've considered it if I hadn't found Perla. I'm using Perla alternate as part of my logo.

Patty - Thanks for that! :-) I would love to see that ad campaign!
Do you know the name of the jewelry store? Could it be Mauboussin?
The reason I mentioned Katie Holmes is because I love what she's wearing (clothes). But "pathetic puppet" feels like an approriate comment when you look at her charisma these days. Which is sad because she seems to be a sweet girl.

I didn't back down as you conceive it... Lore reminded me that this is an open forum to everyone on Typophile & it should not end in a (non*) personal duel which I can imagine would get quite tiresome to the rest of the forum here. Out of respect for my fellow Typophilers (you included), I've decided to give it a rest, not because I feel at all threatened by anything you've said so far. That having said, I honestly have to admit that I enjoy seeing other people haven't. With Lore's blessings I would be glad to join in again ;-)

* interprete either which way you want

>Charlotta, you’re reading into what I write whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

I feel so good about myself without any help from you. And trust me, nothing you've said in your last few replies makes me feel good.

>You’ve been here just over a month-and-a-half; if you think anything can be “long ago” for you here...

First off, you most be one of the most belligerent people I have ever met if you bring up a tiny little thing like that. I knew when I wrote it that it might be misunderstood but I wrote "long ago" - meaning, that I was adviced about you before things began to get personal and unpleasant.

>Your convenient assumptions about me might be safe to make in the types of places you frequent, but they are incorrect in my case.

Convenient assumptions is an interesting choice of words for someone who's told me categorically that he knows me better than I know myself. And pray tell, what "places" to I frequent? Oh, yes, "Typophile isn't the idiotic nicey-nicey internet space". Well, first of all, I don't frequent any other internet space and I only became a member here because I am working with my website and a lot of things are completely new to me. And I am sorry to disappoint you, but I don't feel threatened by Typophile or the members here. I am humble enough to admit that I need help and smart enough to hold my own in a discussion. Unless you haven't noticed.

>I am unlikley to be comparable to anybody you know.

And are you assuming things about me again? What kind of people do I know?

>...you have me mistaken for somebody who cares a lot about you and what you think.

You obviously don't care about me but I think you care about what I think - why else have you been turning yourself inside out to try to make me think like you?

>If you doubt any of this please ask like a half dozen women who are long-timers here. And I don’t mean the feminazi one.

Feminazi? I guess that word could confirm what I said about you and your attitude about women last night, but I am not going to assume that since I don't know what it means.

>Your gender is not a problem; your bull-headedness is.

In what way am I bull-headed? Could it be because I stand up for my opinions which you don't agree with?

>You are fooling yourself. You’re smart enough to know
that everything matters, not least what something is called.

You might be absolutely right. I am not good at marketing and I might underestimate the importance of the whole "selling the product" thing. Time will tell. It's going to be trial and error like everything else in my life. That the way one learns.

I had to dash, but of course, I'll be back - if only to have yet another encounter with you in this forum. ;-) But it was after 1 AM and I had to go to bed.

>If your emotional fallout from this argument further impedes
your ability to assimilate criticism, that would be a sad loss for you.

Well, I might've had a big problem dealing with criticism when I was 20, 21, but I am older and wiser now and I have no problem with that.
I know that's the easiest way for people like you to take a cheap shot at someone they feel threatened/provoked (?) by. But again, it's not working.

And listen, if you even have the energy to reply to this message, you'll going to defend my last remark about feeling threatened - and I don't mean intellectually threatened, obviously. But what else is going on here? I think you are a very intelligent, articulate man and I also believe that you are very creative, but you started this. You took this to another level and made it personal against me. Why? Let me have my opinion on what an enfant terrible is, I will certainly let you have yours. And I have never said that I am one - I simply mentioned in my first comments that I could IDENTIFY with the traits that is my own PERSONAL interpretation of this. Why can't you just let me think and feel that way? You questioning that is what started this whole thing to begin with. Can we end it now, please?

Ill sans - That makes me glad. :-) I never wanted this to turn into an ugly debate - which it is now between hrant and me.

But please understand, if people - and I don't care whoever it is - begin (what I perceived) to attack me and making it personal and talking to me in an condescending way, I'm going to stand up for myself and defend how I feel and think. And even if hrant didn't want to admit (and I might be wrong about that as well) that the attitude from men often gets more patronizing toward women in a heated debate, that's how I honestly feel.

I respect every single person in this forum that I have come across and I have been amazed at the level of creativity and intelligence. I never wanted anything like this. I just wanted to be inspired and learn things that is completely new to me. But having said that, I am a designer and I do have a very clear vision of what I like and dislike. Like everybody in this forum, I assume. :-)

Just a question - you said you enjoy seeing that other people haven't felt threatened by me? Why should they? I have had nothing but very pleasant interactions with everyone in this forum except for you and hrant. And I'm sorry about that - even if I have to stand up for myself I deeply dislike not being friendly and kind.

Perla alternate lowercase cries out for tentacles, but the client is right, you could look in the direction of damaging its elegant appearance – iconoclasm.

Tim

To answer your question, I didn't assume anyone to be threatened by you. I merely meant that I respect that someone might have a different opinion on this thread and does not cave under peer pressure (like I have if you will) to let this thread end in a duel. It is an open forum & everybody on Typophile that starts a thread opens the gates to responses & like I said before, those may not be the ones one had hoped for. I simply respect Lore's opinion that it has indeed -probably not only for her- taken a unpleasant route. And since I am not out to hurt or annoy anyone here (I like Typophile & want to remain a member for years to come), I have stepped down. For that reason and that reason alone, I have no further comments on the debate that has been going on for a while now. I don't think either Hrant or me were ever out to take a cheap shot at anyone. We simply disagree with you & have only tried to help you by saying so. Sure, we may have used the wrong words here and there, but then again, that's what happens in heated debates. My gender nor my opinion about women (if I even have one) had nothing to do with that. I respect people regardless their gender, colour, beliefs,... I don't think that -at any point- this was a clash between the sexes, simply a disagreement.

Charlotta, you’re not reading what I write.

> someone who’s told me categorically that
> he knows me better than I know myself.

Untrue.
I have simply made an observation based on what I’ve seen, and you don’t like it and/or the fact that I made a personal observation about you at all. Well, like I said before (although you failed to take it in) I believe that because we are people this type of thing is inescapable and even useful. If this violates your personal social rules, then I would say: welcome to this reality!

> I don’t frequent any other internet space

That explains your difficulty with criticism. It’s quite a different world compared to your physical reality. The virtual nature of the internet enables new levels of candor. Leverage it.

> Feminazi? I guess that word could confirm what
> I said about you and your attitude about women

Pardom me if I think there are all kinds of women.
You on the other hand seem to think there are only
two kinds of men.

By twisting my use of "feminazi" into a convenient weapon
you're being opportunistic, manipulative and/or dense.
Unless it's distinctly the latter, you're increasingly
seeming to me like not at all a nice person after all.
Note: this does not qualify you as an enfant terrible!

> And I am sorry to disappoint you, but I don’t
> feel threatened by Typophile or the members here.

What makes you think I thought/wanted that?
That's actually a rhetorical question...

> I think you care about what I think - why else have you been
> turning yourself inside out to try to make me think like you?

I care about what you think too little for that to be the
reason for the nature of my behavior here. This is how
I am - ask around. It has very little to do with you.

> In what way am I bull-headed?

Seemingly every way possible.
Heck, you didn't even take the feminazi's advice!

Please tell me exactly what bit of advice of any kind
you've actually taken away from this thread so far?

> It’s going to be trial and error like everything
> else in my life. That the way one learns.

One learns in a number of ways. Like listening to others.

> But what else is going on here?

All kinds of things you’ve never encountered
before, that you might never even dream of.

> I have never said that I am one

Untrue. You've conveniently completely forgotten
the previous arguments, including the potentially
fruitful discussion concerning definitions versus
the reality of your prospective customers. And all
your anger is coming from my calling your bluff.
But I do so only to: help; and express my opinions.

> an ugly debate - which it is now between hrant and me.

As we’ve already established, we find different things ugly.
And concerning your polarization:

> I have had nothing but very pleasant interactions
> with everyone in this forum except for you and hrant.

You’re drawing lines between people’s behavior
in a highly aritificial and self-serving way.

Judging from the opinions and graphics concerning "enfant terrible" that I've seen in this thread you can be pretty sure that a number of people have simply given up on you, or at least helping you in this thread. Their silence does not imply agreement, and certainly not respect.

Such polarization will only serve to confuse you in the long term.

—

Charlotta, you’re making things up as needed. Furthermore,
your total lack of self-doubt concerning what kind of person
you think I am is unintelligent and reckless. All this is highly
annoying and wasteful - but possibly necessary in terms of
your development as a member of the internet, in particular
as a member of Typophile.

Condascending? Whatever.

hhp

I like the idea of a word mark only.

It occurred to me that you could jazz up a word mark a bit because of the middle letters in Social Butterfly and Enfant Terrible. The 'B' looks a bit like a butterfly, and could be modified to suggest one explicitly. And the top of a swash T could have a hint of a devil's tail--the swashed arrow terminal. In both the middle letters could be a different color and voilà!

By the way Marian Bantjes could do a version that would just be mind-blowingly good. I don't know if you can afford her, but she might like the project, if she likes your jewelry :)

> Hiro - I love that font

That wasn't the point of his post, and you know it.
This extreme degree of "diplomacy" is counter-productive, and perhaps
an indication of wanting to draw partisans in a time of perceived need.
But this is not a war, it's an opportunity. And by deflecting the subtext
(and sometimes the main text!) of people like Hiro you're wasting it.

The least you can do is ignore, like you
nicely did with my first bluff-calling post.

--

William, I suspect Marian is too nicely dark to enjoy this.
Have you seen her Halloween poster?

hhp

Marian Bantjes knows there are other days of the year than Halloween.

Sometimes I wonder whether you do.

Have you talked to her about holidays? I have. The fact that you admire
her work (as I do) does not mean you have much in common personally.
And the fact that she relishes Valentine's Day (as I do) does not mean she
doesn't harbor a shaded complexity way beyond this pair of jewelry lines.

And as you know I wonder about you too.
Although each passing day "wondering" describes it increasingly poorly.

hhp

Without wading into the miasma of the last page allow me to suggest these things:

- The name is important. The Poerty/dream/associations evoked by the name is what is important about it & will vary a great deal. No item of personal expression ( jewelry fit neatly into this category as do clothes and unfortunately cars...) can be really successful unless it isn't for somebody. Not only can you afford to leave out some people. You Must.

- You could go with a letter mark alone. That would be classier & be higher end. Or you could have a 'mark'. Or contrive to have both. One for the low & one for the high.

- If you do have a mark it should be somewhat enigmatic and available to interpretation. I like these ideas:

• a wrecked sand castle
• a broken window
• a spiled cup of tea
• a statue with the head laying to one side
• a cupcake with one side smashed - cande still lit but tipped over?

In other words - be less litteral. Let the viewer work it out for themselves. These more litteral and direct ideas make me yawn. They seem shrill & highshool-y to me. The reason is they leave less room for the imagination. Branding is about creating a space for the buyer to project their desires and fantasy. I say: Make room!

OK people, enough suggestions already.
Charlotta, let's see some designs, if you're willing.
I admit, it'd be an act of bravery at this point!

R

>let’s see some designs

See the photos of her jewelry on p 2 of this thread.

I think Randy meant designs as in a logo, William.

a wrecked sand castle and cupcake with one side smashed
Brilliant!

Tom: I'm not taking the bait today, too much work ; ) and I have nothing to say to hrant that Charlotta hasn't already covered.

Ill sans - If one caves under peer pressure one lets it end in a duel? I thought it was the other way around? It became a "duel" between me and hrant (and you) simply because I didn't cave under peer pressure and started to agree with your opinions. If there's one thing we can agree on can it at least be that? Because if there's any remark that I have made that was nasty, sarcastic, rude or negative - that started this thing - please point that out to me and I will apologize.

My words were: "I merely meant that I respect that someone might have a different opinion on this thread and does not cave under peer pressure (like I have if you will) to let this thread end in a duel". And by not caving under peer pressure, I simply meant remarks other people said about our duel & that with that in mind I stepped down from the arguement. And by that someone who might have a different opinion I meant Hrant. I respect him for broadcasting his opinions no matter what. I haven't changed my mind about anything I said, but I backed down in (idle?) hope not to annoy others any longer.

blush Thanks Lorenza.

Randy, I will take my cue from you today.

Ill sans - One last question about this - do you respect me for broadcasting my opinions no matter what?

Sure I do, but I guess I just got under the impression we weren't. Honestly though, I probably respect you less for your opinion than Hrant, but let's just call that birds of a feather ;-)

Fine by me. I can understand that since you're friends and share similar opinions. :-)

What Randy said.

> See the photos of her jewelry on p 2 of this thread.

Concerning which, it would be interesting to learn (I mean the
real reason) why the third one (the coral/green necklace with
the jade buddha thing) was swapped out for something that
looks like the other two "soft" ones, after things heated up...

> It became a “duel” between me and hrant (and you)
> simply because I didn’t cave under peer pressure

It became a duel in your head. And that happened only because you can't handle criticism. Don't mistake that for being strong-willed, and certainly not for being an enfant terrible.

> since you’re friends

In the most tentative way, and entirely thanks to you!
Don't imagine that we had some sort of unwritten mutual desire to
gang up on you, no matter how well that suits your predispositions.

hhp

www.satelliteparis.com is the jewelry store in Paris. You can see what I mean on the site - on closer inspection they seem to be recreations of the famous paintings rather than photoshop jobs. Well done and great jewelry in any event.

First of all, I sincerely apologize for this perpetual "duel" which most be incredibly tiresome for all of you participating in this thread. This is my last comment to hrant though.

hrant - >It’s quite a different world compared to your physical reality. The virtual nature of the internet enables new levels of candor.

Yes, of course internet enables "new levels of candor". You can be completely anonymous and say whatever comes to mind. And if you're nasty and insulting you never have to take the consequences for people's reactions like you have IRL. It takes a lot more strength and courage to stand face to face to someone and criticize them in the physical world.

> Pardon me if I think there are all kinds of women. By twisting my use of “feminazi” into a convenient weapon you’re being opportunistic, manipulative and/or dense. Unless it’s distinctly the latter, you’re increasingly seeming to me like not at all a nice person after all.

Are there any women in this forum who isn't laughing out loud right now if they read that? What a feeble attempt to get away from the fact that you're using a derogatory word for women. You try to make me look bad, hiding behind your nasty accusations. If you are going to use a word as feminazi, at least have the balls to stand up for the true meaning of it. And BTW, there were men as well who gave me advice about you - can they be feminazis too?

What advice have I taken in this forum? I have accumulated a ton of information and knowledge about everyhting from marketing, pricing, potential customers, fonts, images and branding. I have also found a brilliant designer that I want to do some work for me because I love what she is doing. I feel truly humbled among all these talented people who are skilled at things that I have zero knowledge about.

> And all your anger is coming from my calling your bluff.

What bluff is that? No, I take that back, I shouldn't ask you any more questions or make any more comments on you because there is no end to this. I understand that now. You're apparently the type of person who thrives on bickering and someone who'll never admit to having any flaws. It does not matter what I say you're going to continue to blab on about how I don't know myself, how I can't handle criticism, and that I am a bluff. (?) Or whatever else you can come up with that you think is going to break me down. Give up now because that is never going to happen. (And BTW I have read through everything you and I have said to each other and I can't see that I have changed my mind when it has been convenient to me and I have
certainly not made things up. And trying to make me feel that people don't like me around here and have giving up on helping me and don't respect me, is just another way for a bully to try to make me feel unwanted and beaten down. It is so sad.

I really enjoyed being here - before hrant - and I just posted my last comment to him and was looking forward to continue the interesting and stimulating interaction I've had here with the rest of you. But it seems that this man is attacking me when I'm not even communicating to him. He has made comment about my replies to both Hiro and Ill sans.
This is his last comment to me about my interactions with the rest of you: >Charlotta: I have had nothing but very pleasant interactions
with everyone in this forum except for you and hrant.

hrant> You’re drawing lines between people’s behavior in a highly aritificial and self-serving way.

Judging from the opinions and graphics concerning “enfant terrible” that I’ve seen in this thread you can be pretty sure that a number of people have simply given up on you, or at least helping you in this thread. Their silence does not imply agreement, and certainly not respect.

If the rest of you feel this way about me and wants me not partcipating in this forum (or thread) I'll stop doing it, but I will not be scared off by hrant. Please, tell me how you feel, and thanks for all kind and supportive messages. :-)

And BTW, hrant - considering your last comment about the pictures of my jewelry - I had to take the picture away because of reasons that has nothing to do with the untrue, nasty gossip you tried to come up with. Get a life.
Charlotta

> You can be completely anonymous and say whatever comes to mind.

No, no, that's not it at all - I'm not anonymous, not in the least.
It's the physical non-presence that causes people to be more frank,
to spill their guts more easily. I believe you recently noticed that
about your own behavior here.

I go to type conferences, and sometimes I have to meet the people
I've had conflicts with. This it not about escapism, but coming to
terms with certain aspects of human nature.

> Are there any women in this forum who isn’t
> laughing out loud right now if they read that?

Why don't you ask them?

> What a feeble attempt to get away from the
> fact that you’re using a derogatory word for women.

Not women, a woman. All the difference.

> there were men as well who gave me advice
> about you - can they be feminazis too?

No, regular nazis.

BTW, people have been privately talking dirt to me about you too.
Now what?

Charlotta, you have a lack of experience in situations
like this. Have the humility to be in a learning mode.

> What advice have I taken in this forum? I have accumulated ...

Sounds like hot air to me. You have trouble taking advice, of any
kind, and I bet people who know you personally would confirm this.

> You’re apparently the type of person who thrives on bickering

No, I thrive on exposing fraud.

> someone who’ll never admit to having any flaws.

More convenient ranting and raving.
I have a lot of flaws, and I regularly admit to them.
Ask people.

> you think is going to break me down.

Repeat: I don't care enough. I'm doing this
for myself and the integrity of discourse.

> And trying to make me feel that people don’t like me around here

Yeah, nothing like what you've been talking
about the private advice you've been getting.

Charlotta, you're out of control.

hhp

> If the rest of you feel this way about me and wants me not
> partcipating in this forum (or thread) I’ll stop doing it

From my 7+ years here I can assure you that nobody (well, except for a nazi or two) wants you to leave or stay because of what they might think about you or your work. They would hope that you take advice, and give advice, and not mind me too much, or anybody else. Care about type, not what people think about you.

Go back and reflect on your (over)reaction to my opinion that you're not an enfant terrible, which is how this mess started. Try to decide if your behavior, including your demonization of me, makes sense. Unless a medical condition is preventing it, I think you might just wake up.

hhp

Hrant, please give up. She's more interesting than you.

ƒ

I didn't realize this is an elimination contest.
Are you're still in?!

hhp

Fredrik, what a silly cat you are.

Hrant,

your enthusiasm for typography is matched only by your enthusiasm for fruitless argument.

A flaw, admitted. Although Uli always beats me.

hhp

"who’s not afraid to be different, and someone rebellious and flamboyant"

Charlotta from that intro and from the pieces you've shown, forgive me for being presumptuous, but I think you're talking about a sensual experience - you know what I mean?

Reserved they ain't.

Furthermore how you chose to have the ring hold the stones/glass borders on bondage. And yet the piece's vitality isn't restricted by such bondage. These works are bold, lively - perhaps even naturally flamboyant.

Your work speaks more to the senses than to the intellect. You know what I mean?

Take Winston's work for instance, it's very controlled stuff, almost to the point of being 'unnatural'. Cleveage cut just right, stones set in traditional claw posture. His stuff is almost banal due to it being too clever - too linear - that, and wanting to appeal to a 'class' structured society. (Which I don't want to go into right now, but I'm not talking about money and 'affordability', I am talking about dominance.)

Your work, has a bold natural sensual quality that Winston's does not. And as you intro'd your work with words like "not affraid... ,different..., rebellious..., flamboyant..." - this speaks to a client who is yes 'structured', but one doesn't conform to societies norms, ...ok?

It's a bold thing to be part of society with a vitality that can 'impact' others. And do it with a uncultivated natural love.

Just like a John Lennon peace sign?

The frailty of a butterfly doesn't translate a bold sensual vitality that steps out of societies norms. And it sure ain't rebellious - more cliche if anything. And as for the drawing techniques of Bantjes, those pen strokes/scratches don't convey a bold sensual natural sweep of flamboyant emotion. And to saddle others work as Patty suggests, puts your work in a subserviant position - at best gimmicky and more unnatural if anything.

Think more along the line of being uniquely uninhibited yet with a stylish love, perhaps with a nod to tradition - whatever the hell that is... 'craft'?

_________
Hiro

That's stunningly beautiful! Very creative and some of my favourite artists - Degas, Vermeer and Gauguin, the latter especially so well created with the women and the colors that one immediately can see which artist it is. I wish I would've come up with that idea... :-)
(Thanks for your IM message).

Fredrik - Tack! Jag har aldrig träffat på en mer bitter, aggressiv, komplexfylld och osäker människa i mitt liv. Han gör allt för att försöka bryta ner mig, det är pinsamt och sorgligt. Men du har väl mer erfarenhet av den här personen än jag. :-)

Ehm... Has English changed immensely in the past few minutes or has my mind finally gotten the better of me? ;-)
Translation, please...

I was just reading the April/May issue of Dynamic Graphics, ang came across an article about designing a logo for a jewelery company.

http://www.dynamicgraphics.com/dgm/Article/28760

Hiro - I appreciate what you are saying and I like the fact that you're talking about love. "Think more along the line of being uniquely uninhibited yet with a stylish love..." I really don't know what to do about that but I love it! :-) I think people here - at least the graphic designers - have to understand that I am a novice at this. I've studied art and poetry and interior design, but this whole graphic world and everything that has to do with marketing a product and branding and thinking about the potential customer, is like entering a new world to me. And it's incredibly fascinating and I love learning about this but at the same time it's hard.
My imagination, inspiration and creativity run wild when it comes to making jewelry - I am only limited by money right now. And I guess you feel the same way when you're introduced to a new idea from a client. But bare with me sometimes if I don't get it. Some of you are very clear about an idea and some are talking more in metaphores.

Yes, it's more a sensual experience and yes my work speaks more to the senses. You're absolutely right, so now what do I do? ;-)

William - I've been thinking about the B and a butterfly but the problem is, I am not a graphic designer. And nope, can't afford to hire anyone right now - all money goes to semi-precious stones and other materials for the jewelry. I could have someone pick out some jewelry but then they obviously had to like it. :-)
Seriously, if I begin to make money on this I would love to go to a graphic designer and just have someone do the whole thing.
I don't know of Marian Bantjes but I'll look at her work.

Mili - Thank you! I just looked at it and I'm sure it can be very helpful. I've been looking for something like that. I wish I could make illustration like that.

Hmmm. If you just want to do this yourself for now, for Social Butterfly, see if you like Affair or another of the Alejandro Paul scripts. (The type tester at Veer is called 'Flont'. Use that to test your names.) You could also try Enfant Terrible in one of those, but maybe Dalliance Script would be better.

These strongly flavored scripts might give you something that is satisfactory until you've got more cash on hand...

William - You and I think a like. Dalliance was one of my last top three fonts before I decided to go for Perla.

> can’t afford to hire anyone right now

This is a problem. I can think of three possibilities:
1) Use text-only logos. But you'll have to buy a font,
because the "canned" ones on your computer won't be
ideal. If you go this way we can suggest fonts, as William
has already started doing. Here's one I might suggest:
http://www.linotype.com/915/kursivschrift-family.html _
2) Partner up with a graphic designer, agreeing to give
him/her a small percentage of future profits. This might
be a good idea because you only pay if you succeed, and
over the course of your business you'll need a lot of
graphic work done.
3) Possibly the most promising: barter some of your jewelry
for the graphic design service. Luckily, talented women make
up the majority of graphic designers! If you can make a piece
or two "on demand" that are more suitable for men that would
of course almost double your pool.

hhp

Trying to think about this more deeply:
It seems that the graphic-vs-textual logo decision is now the central one here. I personally prefer the former in general, but as others have mentioned a text-only logo might actually be preferable; as it often does, it leaves things to the customer's imagination, which can be great. In this case especially it also has the distinct advantage of being less costly in terms of cash, materials and/or potential eventual profits. On the other hand: hopefully the savings aspect does not over-ride everything else; and a graphic approach might in fact be better if the aggregate customer perspective is focused enough for a graphic logo to nicely focus things to the benefit of sales. Each of us can and does have opinions about what "social butterfly" and "enfant terrible" connote, and some of us even feel comfortable gauging a general connotation among the prospective customer population, but the degree of divergence in the connotation is qualitatively much harder to gauge, and this I think is what would determine whether a graphic or textual approach would be better. Ergo: if you believe that the cost of having a graphic logo is too great in relation to the possibility of a graphic approach being ineffective or even confusing due to a large divergence of what those label names connote, then you should go with a textual approach.

What happens then however is that you ideally should have two different fonts for the different lines. The highly convenient thing about Perla here is that it does have two cuts - one dark and one light! A question however is whether the light cut is strong enough to hold its own. So you might do better to choose a different font for one of the lines.

hhp

I didn’t realize this is an elimination contest.
Are you’re still in?!

I wouldn't dream competing against You in an elimination contest. You'd survive a nuclear explosion.

However, had Typophile been run as a monarchy your days as a court jester would have been numbered.

ƒ

I love Dalliance but it is very popular - altho the script less so. I might suggest customizing it (if Emigre's EULA permits... if you care whether their EULA permits, I personally think Emigre's fonts beg for customization). It seems appropriate, with its dagger-like qualities and the flourishes.

Charlotta,
Those illustrations and scrolls used in the article I mentioned were all customized royalty free vector illustrations. In other words, you don't necessarily have to know how to draw, or even hire anyone to do the illustration for you, if you want to use rf illustrations. The snag is, you might come across them in another context since they're not exclusively yours. Also, to customize them, you need to have the appropiate application (eg. Illustrator) and skill to change the artwork.
Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, and you already know all this!

Mili - Trust me, you're not stating the obvious when it comes to graphic design and typography. Like I've said a number of times now, I am new to this. I have an image in my head and/or I just fall in love with something when I see it, but I'm not as innovative as graphic designers when it comes to "doing something" with a phrase or an image. I have just begun to leard Photoshop but I don't even know what Illustrator is. (Embarrassing I know...) ;-) I need to work with a designer and combine my feeling about this with his/her ideas and graphic talent.

I apologize again for perpetuating this tiresome duel, but I can't just take insults like this lying down.

Hrant -
This is the last time I'll discuss criticism, humility, me being or wanting to be an enfant terrible and why I think we're having this disagreement.

1.)There’s a difference between not being able to handle criticism and merely standing up for one’s opinion. 2.)You mistake standing up for myself as lacking humility. I still respect your take on an enfant terrible to 100% and I would never force my opinions on you. You don’t respect my opinion but you have to at least accept it.
And as far as humility goes - I’ve been deeply humbled by some very difficult things in my life and having you telling me that I am not humble is absolutely revolting. And trust me, it’s impossible to come out at the other end of something painful and lack humility and self-insight. Furthermore, your remarks about humility is just another display of your double standard since your behaviour isn't exactly humble.

Please, start to THINK about what it is you're saying to
people! "Nazi" is bad enough but to make a comment about me possibly having a “medical condition” is abhorrent. What if I really had a medical condition? Have you thought about that? Or do you go to any lengths just to try to have the last word?

Comment me openly or privately, if you will, but do not interfere with my interactions with other people. You commented on what I said to Ill sans and I let that pass because I did mention you briefly. Then you commented on my message to Hiro which had absolutely nothing to do with you and yet you accused me of essentially lying just to be diplomatic. You had the nerve to question my sincerity and said that I basically lied just to get some "followers" in a time of need(?) Don’t even insinuate that I’m a liar or tell me that I’m not genuine about what I say to people. I have never ingratiated myself to anyone in my life and I am not about to start now. I can convey that I don't like someone's idea without being harsh. I think it's a good thing to be diplomatic and kind - and that's the way I want to be treated if I showed someone my jewelry and they didn't like it.
And the comment (which obviously wasn't directed straight to me) about me removing a necklace, was nothing more than insinuating negative things about me. "...concerning which, it would be interesting to learn (I mean the real reason) why the third one (the coral/green necklace with the jade buddha thing) was swapped out for something that looks like the other two “soft” ones, after things heated up.”

Your comment on this disagreement, (Ill sans called it duel not I.) “It became a duel in your head. And that happened only because you can’t handle criticism. Don’t mistake that for being strong-willed, and certainly not for being an enfant terrible”, is as usual unfair and untrue. Luckily, all our interactions are here for everybody to read and not just in "my head". Seriously, I know what you mean by that comment but I think that most people would agree that this is not just about you trying to help me, and I, being so insecure and unable to take criticism, only look at it as an attack on me. I AM strong-willed and self-secure and I'm sorry, but you don't seem to be able to handle that.

It seems like the meaning of what an enfant terrible is is very sensitive to you. It's almost obsessive. You've told me that I'm
NOT an enfant terrible in almost every single message lately. You put so much meaning and value to this phrase that it's crazy. In this sense I am absolutely a lot more superficial than you might've thought because I don't care that much. It's not a wish nor an ambition of mine to become one, so let it go. It's just an innocent little phrase that I happened to like and MY take on it have traits that I can relate to. Interestingly enough though, the only TWO people who have ever told me I wanted to be one and that I am not, are you and Ill sans. No one else - at least not openly. Everyone else have focused on how to turn it into an image or word mark.
And you keep on being categorical and quite possessive of this phrase, as well, repeating things like - "being bull-headed doesn't make you an enfant terrible", and being "diplomatic" and "strong-willed" dont make me one either. Haven't we all agreed that the phrase has a personal interpretation? So why do you talk like you know "the real meaning" of it? And if that's not true, how is it possible for you to tell me that I am not behaving like one?

You accused me of trying to make you look like a demon? I have merely defended myself against your insults and if you can't see that that I don't know what to say. Maybe it's easy for you to turn 180 and all of a sudden send me messages purely about graphic/text and maybe you did that because I hadn't - at that point - "retaliated" for your last comments. I thank you for your advice, but I hope you can appreciate that it's hard to receive help from someone who hasn't exactly acted like a friend. I sincerely hope that it's possible for us to "make up". Let's agree on disagreeing or just accept that we might not like each other if nothing else is possible. And then we can just ignore each other. After your last comment, that is, which I'm sure is coming soon. And in all fairness - you can't restrain yourself for replying to my comments so why should I? But I'm going to try from now on because this takes too much energy and I really don't want to be kicked out of this forum. ;-)
Charlotta

> if Emigre’s EULA permits…

You're dreaming lady! :-/

> This is the last time

Fingers crossed!

> You don’t respect my opinion but you have to at least accept it.

I don't understand what this means. Respect, shmespect - I'd really rather that you didn't care. Accept what? That your prospective customers think what you seem to be thinking concerning "enfant terrible"? Conduct a decent survey, and I might change my mind.

> your behaviour isn’t exactly humble.

"Do as I say, not as I do."

> What if I really had a medical condition?

You might consider revealing it so people take it into consideration.

> do not interfere with my interactions with other people.

You don't get to decide that - your personal social rules are close to worthless here (as are mine). This is not a cocktail party. But you do get to decide your own behavior. And you should realize that when I seem to be "meddling", it's to resolve discourse, not as an attack on you.

Please realize that claims like "had absolutely
nothing to do with you" make no sense at all.

> lying just to be diplomatic.

No, I wouldn't call it lying.* But if you look back through
your own posts you'll see that I got the idea from you.

* See below concerning terminology.

> that’s the way I want to be treated

Factor that out.

> this is not just about you trying to help me

In fact it's very little about trying to help you. As I said
before, to me it's about: the integrity of discourse; and the
desire to express my thoughts.

You are a part of this society, not a dainty
fluttering individual who needs to be pampered.

> It seems like the meaning of what an enfant terrible is is very sensitive to you.

I'm a sensitive person.
Well, at least when it comes to terminology: I don't like it when people twist words just so they come out better. And I do something about it. Actually though not always: like you previously misused "belligerent" but I let it slide.

More to the point:
I guess in this clinical, sheepish society I value people like that - they're so rare too. Couple that to my deep aversion to posers and you get a strong reaction to some goody-two-shoes proclaiming she's one. Also, maybe I'm envious, since I'm not really one myself either.

> I don’t care that much.

Please let your keyboard know.

> the only TWO people who have ever told me I wanted
> to be one and that I am not, are you and Ill sans.

Untrue. Where else would we have gotten the idea but you?
Re-read some of your early posts and you'll see exactly where it started.

If you now state that you're not one after all, great,
but I hope it's not some convenient tactic. Or diplomacy.

> Everyone else have focused on how to turn it into an image or word mark.

And quite unnervingly you've chosen to ignore the beliefs engrained in their suggestions. Like Tom said, it's quite clear that most people here associate much more darkness with the term than you like. You're looking the other way.

> Haven’t we all agreed that the phrase has a personal interpretation?

I guess if you have trouble remembering what you've written yourself you'll never really grasp what other people have written...How many times do I have to repeat the stuff about the interpretation of your prospective customers being what's important here? BTW, I "know" nothing. I think.

Apparently you completely throw away not just people's advice, but even just what they say. This is very annoying, and you can bet not just to me.

> I have merely defended myself against your insults

Untrue.
You have made more personal attacks
than anyone in recent memory. Even me!

> Maybe it’s easy for you to turn 180 and all of a sudden send me
> messages purely about graphic/text and maybe you did that because
> I hadn’t - at that point - “retaliated” for your last comments.

No, no, no. You're thinking of somebody else. I did not turn any degrees (at least not more than 2) and, to repeat, your participation (in any form) does not much affect mine. This is how I am. Ask around.

> it’s hard to receive help from someone who hasn’t exactly acted like a friend.

Frankly Charlotta I think that's moot, because it seems for you it's hard to receive help even from good friends! :-/ This is quite sad (and I'm not saying that to make you feel bad).

> Let’s agree on disagreeing or just accept that we
> might not like each other if nothing else is possible.

I don't see why we need to agree on anything, and I don't want liking
or not liking to be a factor here - it's bad for fruitful discourse.

> I’m going to try from now on

Good luck. I mean it.

> I really don’t want to be kicked out of this forum.

What makes you think that would happen?
Notice that I'm still here!

--

Please, try to address my previous two posts [as well].

hhp

Why couldn't we customize Dalliance? You can't reverse engineer the font software, but to take a work and customize it in Illustrator is permitted. (Unless I'm missing something. How do you read their EULA?)

Charlotta -- you can always invoke The Silence Brigade on (H)rant.... ;-)

Miss Tiffany - Keep in my mind that all this is new to me, didn't even know what EULA was until now. ;-) How/where do you customize a font? In Illustrator?

Linda - That's hilarious - "invoke the Silence Brigade", sounded like something from Harry Potter. :-) But no, I don't need to do that, I can handle him. Thanks for the advice though! :-)

Regarding Emigre's EULA and Dalliance - I'm on someone else's PC (can't figure out how to do anything, miss my Mac like crazy) so haven't checked their rules. I just didn't want to advise Charlotta to do anything that might be against the rules. I have certainly customized fonts for logos but was pretty ignorant myself regarding EULAs until very recently.

I wish there was a way to cut out the flaming in this thread and leave what's interesting which is Charlotta's jewelry, her logo, and peoples' various interpretations of "enfant terrible".

Illustrator (or Freehand or Coreldraw in order of my preference), is ideal for customising a typeface, but it isn’t always a simple process. Hrant has made helpful suggestions; bartering your jewellery skills for someone’s typographic/design skills might be a workable solution. The points, that several have made, of whether your business would be better served by a wordmark than a symbol combined with text when the definitions are so broad are worth considering, although the choice of typeface does bring with it connotations, the imagination is given looser rein.

Tim

I can handle him
Charlotta, it's not you we are worried about, it's HIM! Please have mercy! : )

Agree with Pat but it seems hrant considers this duet some sort of "rite of passage", something newcomers have to go through because he belongs to the develop-a-thick-skin-is-good-for-you school of thought. Anyway Charlotta, make sure you don't kill him, hrant can be fun sometimes. Sort of.

Patty - I don't want this to be about anything else than what you mentioned and I feel embarrassed every time I reply with another LONG message, but it's hard for me to ignore him.

Timd - hrant might've given me good advice in his messages on this page but unfortunately his belligerent attitude drowns out everything that might be worth reading.

Lore - I just emailed you. I have no idea what you think but get back to me when you have the time. :-)

> his belligerent attitude drowns out everything

This depends on the listener. William dislikes me probably
even more than you do, but he's not completely incapable
of recognizing the occasional worth of things I contribute.

BTW, thanks for using "belligerent" correctly this time, if not accurately.

Anyway, if you end up hooking up with Lorenza (possibly
leveraging the bartering scheme that I suggested) I think
it might be a great symbiotic relationship, and to your
large mutual benefit.

hhp

If an enfant terrible was an animal...? Could it be a frog? I like frogs. Myths and fairytales - they're slimy and not so beautiful but if you kiss them...? Not that that has anything to do with an enfant terrible, but I'm getting desperate. ;-)
I found a moth. Someone suggested that a while ago. Could there be a butterfly for one collection and a moth for the other??

Animal? Clearly:
http://people.bu.edu/wwildman/ben/tassie/taz.jpg _
:-)

hhp

I think it might be a great symbiotic relationship, and to your
large mutual benefit.

Thanks for your blessing, dear. I know you get insanely jealous when I hook up with someone at Typophile (Hi Nick) but rest assured, Charlotta and I, it's only business (I have an eye on that gorgeous ring), nothing else.

I like the moth but for some reason I tend to like the suggestions that involve some sort of dark humour, like the tentacle thing, or the sandcastle idea but maybe you're right, keep it serious, the moth is a good idea. Not sure about Taz...

It seems like it's time for me to step up again.
Sorry, Lore, but basically: EAT ME!
I'm very disappointed to see the same person who made the first remark that this whole thing was getting unpleasant for everyone, has now decided to pick sides & actually makes a sarcastic remark at Hrant's address. So I'll take your comment as an invitation to me to rejoin the debate. Even Linda joined in on this & since the balance is more uneven & unfair than it ever was, consider me back (& this time it's personal)!
Sure, Linda's comment & maybe even Lore's may be playful, but who's to say mine & Hrants original posts weren't? Further more, Charlotta never had to do deal with the 2 of us at the same time. She conveniently ignored Hrants first comment that started all this (as did everyone else) which was what prompted me to second him. Things got a little ugly between me & Charlotta then, but Hrant only picked up where I left off. It was always one on one & still we were accused of ganging up on her. Well, what do you call this, then? Even when I took a step down, Charlotta kept on including me in the debate. A few days back, I've sent her an email with my apologies for how things escalated, but she didn't even have the decency to reply to this. It just goes to show. But in the meantime, she's not at all embarassed to openly tell Lore she just sent her an email & everyone here can pretty much guess what that's about. The more I read here, the more annoyed I get & I think it's time for Charlotta (& Lore for that matter) to find a mirror! It doesn't seem like you're independent & secure enough to post the content of your email, but nevertheless you dò mention it here (why not send her an instant message instead?). This is standard passive agressive behaviour & you know what? Maybe Hrant doesn't take the bait anymore, but I sure do! It seems to me you just crave attention whether it's positive or negative (I told you this time it's personal) & this is probably why you kept on including me. Should we start counting how often you've said "this is my LAST reply". You'll probably dismiss this as psycho babble, but then again, up until now you've done nothing but bend everyone's words to your own convenience. The only thing I can tell from your posts is that 1. you crave attention, 2. even though you admit to being new to all this, you can't seem to take advice from people who know what they talk about (or at least better than you), 3. you dò have a problem with criticism (you proudly proclaim you don't care about what Hrant or I think, but nevertheless you do not seem to be able to let our comments pass you by (even after I stepped down)) 4. you don't seem to be able to think outside your box (see the math problem).
By the way, I haven't been able to follow this discussion the past days, so I'm just warming up.

Ouch!

Tom: we are all trying to have a laugh at this. Even Hrant. Relax and join us. Since you find so offensive that Charlotta and I exchange emails, I explain to you what's all about: Charlotta likes one of my illustrations and she would like to use it. And I said, of course, it's all yours. No big feminazi conspiracy going on, cool your little boots.

Still, you can't deny the fact of insinuation.And like I said in the long reply, who's to say Hrant & I were not being half serious in our first posts on this matter?

Ill sans and to anyone who may have sent me an email.
I have not received any email from anyone in this forum - and that's not a bad excuse for not wanting to respond or having nothing to say. In fact, Lore had sent me an email a couple of days ago that I didn't receive and I only found out a couple of hours ago and went in to my account and changed the address. I would NEVER ignore an email or a message, online or IRL. And as far as the message from hrant that Ill sans brought up again, that I'm accused of also having ignored, please send it again and I'll respond.
Charlotta

Even Linda joined in on this & since the balance is more uneven & unfair than it ever was, consider me back (& this time it’s personal)! Sure, Linda’s comment & maybe even Lore’s may be playful, but who’s to say mine & Hrants original posts weren’t?

Say what? Are you referring to my suggestion to invoke TSB as some sort of indication of my position -- either pro or con -- in what has rapidly degenerated into a flaming, name-calling sham of a discussion?

Because if you are, you are sadly mistaken, and an apology would be in order.

All I said is that -regardless whether you're pro or con anyone or whether or not it was just a playful response- other people are discussing the situation as well now, so I don't see any reason why I should shut up out of respect for anyone. And meddling will surely not end this debate. Read whatever you like into that.

Charlotta, below is a copy of the mail I sent you...

Hi Charlotta,

I'm probably the second to last person you were expecting a mail from, but there has been too much going on lately to just leave things as they are now.
First off, I'd like to apoligize for my behaviour (as in chosing the wrong/harsh words here & there), but I have to get it off my chest that you invited us to comment your interpretation of an enfant terrible in the first place. I'm very sorry you seem to be under the impression Hrant & I had some sort of pact, but I can assure you that I don't know Hrant any better than you. His face (eye-icon) is a little more familiar to me, but that's all. We did not gang up on you in an attempt to humiliate or annoy you, we were simply broadcasting our views hoping to be of some kind of help to you. I have to admit that in the midst of the heated discussion some unpleasantries may have been written, but like Hrant said: the internet & a forum like Typophile is not an open invitation to bullies (at least not in my case) & it simply ables people to be a bit bolder than they would be in real life. Unlike you still like to believe, this is not a gender-issue. You said men tend to get condescendent in a heated discussion, but maybe that's just our hormones, not at all any kind of misogynistic attitude of any of the posters. If anything, it's just a clash of cultures (Mars vs. Venus) rather than a battle of the sexes. Even the "birds of a feather" comment did not imply this at all, I was merely referring to similar ideas & even though it might be a little prejudiced, you can't ignore the fact that you find yourself rooting for the person you tend to identify yourself with. Not that I identify myself with Hrant or anyone else, but at least, we had one thing in common which -untill then- could not be said about you and me. Unitll then since it now seems I'm not the only one who "caved under peer pressure" in an attempt to try and put an end to this mess ;-) I respect you as a person with all your interests & ideas, but if the Typophile board is not at all representive of society as Kristina stated, maybe it's not the right place for you to be looking for answers? It would be wise to get at least a second non-Typophile opinion about this. I wouldn't trust friends & family for this (they're obviously not objective no matter how hard they would try to be) & suggest to look for some other forum (maybe there's even a forum about jewelry somewhere?) to get more insight into how your customers would interprete your interpretation. Maybe you already have, but either way, I think that's your safest bet right now. From your answers on Typophile, it's probably safe to say none of that will make a difference as you seem very determined in your choice, but as far as that goes, I can only give you the advice you gave me: try and think outside the box. I'm not out to bring you down or anything, but like I said on Typophile, it seems the majority of people associate an enfant terrible with things you don't want your jewelry to be asscociated with. And it would be at least interesting to investigate Kristina's remark and mine to see in what length the Typophile board is representive of our society. Not trying to be a sexist, but it might also help to narrow your audience down to women only. Since men & women think differently & women are obviously much more sensitive to any emotional reaction (men hunt, women nest; that kind of thing) a certain image/phrase has on them, this might prove to be a good solution for you. Let me just leave you with one last thought: I think the idea of a simple logotype is the perfect solution to avoid any kind of misinterpretations & much more elegant than any kind of symbol. Your jewelry looks too elegant for any kind of symbol (unless maybe something very abstract or geometric) & I think this would only add to how it is presented. For symbols, I have also thought of the 4 elements: earth would be perfect to represent the "sober" part of your collection & fire works perfectly well for the more flamboyant line, but then again, this is just a thought (feel free to post this idea for reactions).
I honestly hope you don't take anything that has been going on in your thread as personal (to you or women in general), but can find a way to appreciate we were only trying to help you by sharing our views on the subject. Unfortunately, by doing so and using harsh words your thread ended in a battlefield.
My sincere apologies for this & any future comments I might make in other threads, but only by being honest I might be of any help to you (in a worst case scenario only to illustrate you might get annoying reactions to everything you do, not only online). Sure, my honesty is brutal sometimes, but then again, so am I. Maybe that's another difference in how women & men express themselves? Men tend to get a little sharper around the edges whereas women are far more diplomatic & sophisticated in many situations, especially heated debates.
I wish you all the luck with your jewelry & everything else.

Kind (yes, I àm actually a kind person; ask anyone who knows me) regards!

Tom Lukacs - ill sans

‽

If an enfant terrible was an animal…?

The Cat... in particular, a White 'domesticated' cat.

And for what it's worth - I'm surprised hrant has invested as much energy/hope as he has, trying to reach the naked soul of Charlotta.

hrant, sometimes - some people - just can't be found.

__________
Hiro

Speaking of cats, this whole thing reminds me of a pet you're desperaley trying to housetrain, but even after having rubbed its nose in its own urine numerous times, the damn thing still pisses on your carpet. Sorry for the bad anology, but that pretty much sums this thread up. Hopefully this math is not too advanced for some. Oh, and let me just state for the record that I'm an animal lover. Plus que je connais les hommes, mieux j'aime les bêtes.

> Tom: we are all trying to have a laugh at this.
Lore, your excuse for joining in on the "fun" is plain stupid & you (should) know it. Funny how the first person to be so annoyed by all this that she thought it was necessary to point it out to others, has now -somehow- found a way to appreciate the humour in it all. What happened in the past few days that made you miraculously turn 180° (to use other people's terms)? I'm curious.

> Tom: we are all trying to have a laugh at this.
Lore, your excuse for joining in on the "fun" is plain stupid & you (should) know it. Funny how the first person to be so annoyed by all this that she thought it was necessary to point it out to others, has now -somehow- found a way to appreciate the humour in it all. What happened in the past few days that made you miraculously turn 180° (to use other people's terms)? I'm curious.

I truthfully feel really bad right now because it feels like this is all my doing and if I hadn't joined this forum this unpleasant debate never would've taken place. It was never my intention.
And I decided yesterday to take a step back from "the debate" with hrant and I think we all tried to put this behind us and just focus on the fun, and then it seems to start again?

Ill sans - I'll respond to you in an email and that's not because I have anything to hide but I rather not keep on taking up space in this forum with this perpetual drama.

I also want to explain/apologize for the fact that I haven't replied to many messages containing a lot of brilliant ideas and helpful advice, but I honestly feel that the heated discussion between me and hrant has taken up so much energy and time for me that I haven't been able to focus. I hope people can see that and not mistake it for me being rude, ungrateful or nonchalant. And yes, it has been a conscious decision to keep on writing to hrant and thus ending up losing a lot of valuable information and giving interactions with other people. That's only my own fault and due to a combination in my personality of loathing unfair accusations and being argumentative.

Hiroshige- >And for what it’s worth - I’m surprised hrant has invested as much energy/hope as he has, trying to reach the naked soul of Charlotta.
That's pretty deep. I'm not sure he would agree with you. I thought he wanted to give me advice and share his opinions with me and then it turned into a very heated debate between us.

>hrant, sometimes - some people - just can’t be found.
That's a cruel thing to say.

Taking this out on thin ice and possibly through the surface and into the dark...

I thought of a passage from Man Rays autobiography Self Portrait where he writes about his collaboration on a silver collar with William Seabrook, writer, explorer and profound sadist. I believe he was a bit of a cannibal as well. Anywat, it was made for Seabrook's girlfriend at the time, Marjorie Worthington. The tricky part, then. The choker's extreme height made it difficult for the wearer to swallow or breathe.

"She wore the bauble at home to please Seabrook's penchant for fetishism, and because it became quite uncomfortable after a while. She also wore it at a social function once; it was a sensation, few suspecting its real function. He made her wear the collar thereafter whenever they went out to dinner and took a certain pleasure in watching her at the table eating and drinking with difficulty."

Inspiring, right?

I could be wrong, but your focus is more on pret-a-porter than haute couture then this is probably a bit hard but exploring the aspect of Enfant terrible as someone against conventions so much you make it painfully hard to wear but – very important – still such an object of desire you must try. Like a heavy sphere, hanging on a thin chain, plaited with a sharp pointed thorn of crowns in silver. One wrong move and it might rip a piece of clothing, or flesh even.

Or maybe I got a bit carried away.

Still a potent area of exploring anyone's inner enfant terrible. Ugly thoughts wrapped beautifully.

ƒ

Tom: whatever.

Great comeback, Lore! ;-)

Fredo - That acutally sounds like it would turn out to be a very beautiful piece of jewelry. And there might be something alluring, maybe excisiting to wear, knowing that it could hurt you if you didn't
behave correctly. ;-)

There have been a lot of beautifully expressed metaphores mentioned by a lot of people. I was going to address that yesterday but it all got a bit heated again. The sandcastle and the muffin with the candle, to name two. I am a big fan of poetry so here's my absolute favourite poem by one of my favourite poets e e cummings. Maybe we all need some beauty and love today, I know that I do, :-)

somewhere i have never travelled,gladly beyond
any experience,your eyes have their silence:
in your most frail gesture are things which enclose me,
or which i cannot touch because they are too near

your slightest look easily will unclose me
though i have closed myself as fingers,
you open always petal by petal myself as Spring opens
(touching skilfully,mysteriously) her first rose

or if your wish be to close me,i and
my life will shut very beautifully, suddenly,
as when the heart of this flower imagines
the snow carefully everywhere descending;

nothing which we are to perceive in this world equals
the power of your intense fragility: whose texture
compels me with the color of its countries,
rendering death and forever with each breathing

(i do not know what it is about you that closes
and opens; only something in me understands
the voice of your eyes is deeper than all roses)
nobody,not even the rain, has such small hands

Ill sans - I'm writing you an email. :-)

About the poem: "nobody, not even the rain has such small hands"
Isn't that just breathtakingly beautiful??

Great comeback, Lore! ;-)
Still more interesting than your woman are from Venus, men are from Mars, hunt and nest sermon. Anything else? Or are you (Tom) finally done? Thanks.

Charlotta, thanks for your upcoming email & thanks for sharing that poem with us, it is indeed breathtakingly beautiful!

Lore, have you already lost your sense of humour?
It comes and goes as it suits you apparantly, but I have to give you credit for having the bravery to openly contradict yourself.
On another note, the whole Mars/Venus thing came from other people's accusations of this being about 2 men ganging up on a woman in case you forgot (maybe your memory comes and goes as well?). I sent this mail before the weekend, so in the meantime obviously a lot of it has already been covered or straightened out in this forum, but as I already said yesterday, I have been absent for a few days.

Charlotta - that poem was used to great effect in Hannah and Her Sisters, most notably the last line. I have always remembered it.

Patty - That's where I first heard it - Michael Caine saying it to one of Hannah's sister's, I think. I never could forget it either so I looked it up and it's amazing. He's wonderful. I've been brought to tears many times just reading his words. :-)

You know, this thread was kind of dumb (and misleadingly encouraging - "I can't spend money on design") to begin with*, and now that it's been appropriated into an unspoken battle of the sexes (with Thelma & Louise references imminent...) it should really be taken out and shot. For one thing, I happen to know that Charlotta isn't even reading all the on-topic content - really she's mostly focused on feeling attacked. So I'll limit my post to the single thing that I feel must be addressed:

Lorenza, consider that Tom might be angry because he suspects you manipulated him back then; and when it didn't work out the way you wanted, you casually trampled over his loyalty on your way into the ring. Why would you do that? Maybe to isolate me; maybe to defend a sister - except what that really entails is using her to further your own ends. It would not be out of character, but most of all it's Not Nice, and your cavalier "have a sense of humor" twist only makes it more unnerving. Half joking? That doesn't make the other half any less serious, only more covert.

* Believe it or not my main original motivation
was encouraging a newbie! Little did I know...

hhp

?

Charlotta, I've been following (sort of) this thread and thinking about your original question. In my personal opinion one cannot assign themselves as an enfant terrible simply because doing so means you subscribe to labels which in and of themselves are part of the status quo. Or in other words, true enfant terrible's are beyond labeling because people don't know how to label them. If that makes any sense. :^D

Therefore, I'd suggest using a typeface. Something you personally feel fits your designs and go with it. The designer in me would say find something unreadable and overtly pretentious, something that might frustrate people a little. But don't worry about a symbol.

Miss Tiffany - I have finally decided to skip the symbol. It seems impossible to find one that feels right to me and at the end of the day - in spite of hundreds of opinions and advice from other people which I am really grateful for - it obviously has to feel good for me. It's my jewelelry and my web site. I am sticking with Perla alternate which is the most beautiful and unique font I have ever seen. I hope it will draw some attention on its own - without any symbols. The lower case b:s, l:s, i:s, e:s and o:s are just lovely.
But I don't think like you who do this everyday and are into typography - I just fall in love with a font and take it from there.
:-)

Ah, I had forgotten you chose Perla. I love that typeface as well. I think it was natural selection that lead you to not choosing a symbol. You're right in that it needs to please you, that is the best instinct to follow.

BTW. I love your rings!

Unspoken battle of sexes, trampling over his loyalty on my way to the ring, hunting and nesting, manipulating, Venus and Mars, defend a sister, using her to further my own ends, feminazi, 2 men ganging up on a woman, bravery, accusations. Brrrrrrrr...
How can anyone possibly read that much into this thread? It's just a girl asking for advice for her logo for gods sake, why is that you need to turn everything you read into a Mexican soap opera, hombre?

So Tom is angry? Oh well.

Well, I see your "sense of humour" is back again ;-p
I'm not the least bit angry, I just get a little frustrated with people who are not consistent in what they say and how they act (obviously in this case: write) & people who constantly bend other people's words to suit their own convenience. If you really want to start the gender thing again, can I just remind you neither Hrant nor I were the first ones to bring it up. We were accused of 2 men ganging up on a poor woman. I used Charlotta's own words to defend myself (it's nice to get into a discussion with people who practically give you your defense in their own; like you with your sense of humour that comes and goes). It was Charlotta who brought it up in the first place, maybe because at that point it was all she could think off? Throwing yourself in the victim's role in a desperate attempt to defend yourself will only assure you you will get there (the victim part) eventually. My reference to John Gray was only to point out that -even though this was never a gender issue- Charlotta might have been onto something in her accusations (probably partially unknowingly). She stated men tend to get condescendent in heated debates & even though that was also a classic example of bending our words to benifit her reply, men & women ARE different (not merely anatomical), it's pure biology & just a scientific fact. But given some people's problems with simple maths (you included, Lore), this is probably wày over you head. So before making any accusations at least do the effort to look where they came from in the first place. Read -and by all means TRY to think- before you write to save yourself from any future embarassment.

It's ok, Tom. You don't have to justify yourself all the time. Hrant said you were angry so it's him you have to persuade, not me. You don't sound angry to me. You sound desperate.

I don't see what this has to do with being desperate. I'm only being correct & consistant which can't be said from all of us here. Does the fact you don't reply to my comment (your post is not exactly a reply, let's face it) imply you've misplaced your "sense of humour" yet again? Or did you simply run out of clever remarks now you've already used "whatever"?

* reply to Charlotta's comment on MissGiggles' thread
http://typophile.com/node/33888

Charlotta, YOU're the one who's still not grasping things & who doesn't have a clue what I'm talking about, but maybe that's just your lack of "mathetical skills"! Both Hrant & I have been trying to make it clear to you that it had nothing to do with your interpretation of an enfant terrible, but your customers' interpretation. We were only trying to give you this insight as advice. Sure, nòw it's personal, but that's only because you wanted to be the victim in all this so much that you made personal accusations against Hrant & me (which until then we had not done about you, merely your ideas) twisting our every word. And about the back stabbing in another thread BS, YOU're the one who asked me about the difference, remember? Or did you catch some of Lore's amnesia? Sure, I made a reference to your thread, but only to point Pattyfab's double standards out. Maybe it's time for you to quit acting like a victim. You were never bullied until you asked for it. Miss Giggles on the other hand was bullied pretty much from the start of her thread for no reason at all. If you keep on asking for my opinions & motives, you will keep feeling bullied 'cause let's face it, no matter what I say, most of it is apparantly wày over your head (or is it your enfant terrible's independence that clouds your thinking?) & in your view offensive & condescending. But being condescending is only a reaction to your stubborness & unability to think outside your own little pretentious box. I can only give you the advice I gave Lore; read & THINK before you write! You asked for advice, but are too "independent" to take it from anyone & this blinds you from simple facts. But if you're too independent, don't ask for help or advice. This is just one of your classic contradictions & I'm sorry if I have to be the one to point them out to you, but apparantly nobody else -except for Hrant- has the guts to do so. Or maybe their "math skills" match yours.
It's a shame about your mail & efforts to try and send it to me (& to be honoust, I was actually quite curious about it), but now I doubt I could even be bothered to read it.
And no offence, but I don't think we'll ever be friends... I have high standards, you see. I'm not here to bully anyone, but you have to stop taking my words out of context and wallowing yourself in selfpity. Don't forget you asked for my opinion & that's exactly what you got!

Pattyfab - I agree with your comment in another thread, this is getting tiresome. But I don't see any end in sight unfortunately, and life's too short and too hard enough as it is to put up with this crap. Hrant - I should get "through me thick skull that nobody cared
enough for me to stab me in the back"? But for some reason I don't think you would leave me alone and you're so incredibly unpleasant that I literally feel ill when I read your messages to me so I am forced out of this forum.

For the rest of you who might read this, it was really fun while it lasted and thank you for all your great input and support and advice. I have read EVERY SINGLE WORD of it and taken everything to heart. I apologize for not having replied to every kind and helpful message I got. Something else unfortunately got in the way.

As for all the utterly untrue and unfair comments, it's absolutely pointless for me to even begin to try to defend myself or explain myself any more. Yes, by all means, call me a victim if that makes you feel better. I would have liked to send you that email, Tom, but you didn't even had the decency to answer my IM:s, which I sent you several tonight. I still wanted to explain myself to you AFTER I read your last message - and to think that you got so upset with ME for thinking I had ignored your email. I thought you really were worth an explanation. I guess I was wrong.

Well, Charlotta, I have to sleep sòmetime (& I never log out on this site) ;-)
I just saw your IM you sent me last night asking me if I got the one concerning my email address (& that you had sent a message for me to the wrong person) & since you're not online now (you do log out apparantly ;-) ) I can tell you that that was the only message I received from you last night & that the last message I got from you concerning my email address was the one where you thought it might be an omen not to send it to me to which I replied it was just an omen that I needed a new computer ;-)
But if you still want to send it to me, I suggest you send it to aspronaut@gmail.com. I'm having problems with my telenet account. I received a mail yesterday from an orginasation concerning copyrights & patents (I sent them an email over a week ago about an idea of mine, but that's another thread again) with an enormous delay. So maybe I'll still get yours in the next few days, but if you want some assurance I'll get it, I think the gmail account is probably a lot safer.

Ill you might want to edit your email to protect it from creepy crawlers. ;^)

That's OK, Tiffany. I'm surrounded by creeps anyway ;-)
But thanks for your concern!

Black Sheep...

http://blacksheepandprodigalsons.com/

Social Butterflies...

http://jwilley.squarespace.com/

And this...

http://www.enfant-terrible-gold.com/store/

No comment.

Thought of this the other day. I read that your not thinking of icons but maybe it's good for a laugh all the same. It seems somehow right for the thread as well.

Wormwood - "No comment."

I actually think you should comment. Would be very interesting to hear what thoughts lie behind those images.

Eben Sorkin - I still would've prefered to
have icons but it's very difficult to find any that are representative and fit into this particular context.

This reminds me of a Rorschach test. ;-)
I think it absolutely perfect for this thread.

.

"I actually think you should comment. Would be very interesting to hear what thoughts lie behind those images."

Comment on what? I have nothing to say.

I stumbled upon the Black Sheep and Social Butterfly websites by accident so I thought I would see if there was anyone already trading jewellery under the name Enfant Terrrible. I just thought you would be interested to see them.

"Would be very interesting to hear what thoughts lie behind those images."

I don't understand you. None of my thoughts lay behind 'those images'. I have nothing to do with those websites.

I saw the graphic below on a stencil craft website. I still think you're probably better off without logos but maybe you could create a nice promo image or background image by replacing the various sized dots in this butterfly with various sized gems and stones and beads etc.

Wormwood - I'll be completely honest with you. I thought you
were implying something - that I had "stolen" the ideas about
the butterfly and enfant, or something. (Which I truly have not.)
I am getting paranoid, it's just that I didn't
understand why you would write "No comment" if it didn't
mean something. I am sorry.

As far as the butterfly is concerned - that is an absolutely
brilliant idea! It's both clever and beautiful. Thank you!

I'm afraid to ask this because I don't want to start
another heated debate, but any thoughts on "social butterfly"?
Do you think that's a negative or positive epithet? I think
there's something sad about it. Pretty but sad.

That's funny. I specifically wrote 'No Comment' to try to make it clear that I wasn't implying anything or making judgements by posting those links.

I would rather not comment on your choice of names for your jewellery ranges because I don't think it would be of any help as I'm not a potential customer.

I think you shouldn't choose names because you THINK others will like them. It's got to be a personal decision that you feel comfortable with. If you like the names and feel they are suitable then it's likely your potential customers will do to. The name should be a natural creative extension of your jewellery and as much a creative decision as choosing a setting for a gem stone. That way the 'product' is more likely to work as a whole.

Maybe the reason an icon was never found is that one cannot truly pigeon-hole a true enfant terrible?

Don't try and have your name define your business. Let your business define whatever name you come up with.

I agree with Tiff. You can only allude to the idea. Not encapsulate it. Alluding is so much sweeter anyway.

"I think you shouldn’t choose names because you THINK others will like them. It’s got to be a personal decision that you feel comfortable with."

It is and has always been about making personal decisions that feel right to me - with everything in life. But that is also what I've been criticized for. There's a difference between wanting things to feel right and still being open for change, and being narrow-minded and refuse to listen to other people's opinions. I get genuinely psyched when I meet someone who has an idea I've never thought of or who makes me look at something in a different light. But it goes without saying, it has to feel right.

I make jewelry because it's a passion of mine and I only make pieces that I personally like. I'm not "ruled" by what other people might like or by what's trendy. I think it's hard to succeed in business (or in life in general) if one just decides to do something according to what other people might like. (Or what might generate money.)
I believe you have to feel passionate about something if you intend to make a business out of it.

Yes, an Enfant Terrible seems almost impossible to turn into an image at this point. It's probably best to let people have their own take on what it means. Still, it's an interesting challenge. ;-)

Someone wrote about an image of a broken sand castle and a tilted candle in a cup cake. I liked that very much. Turning it poetic and letting an image be a metaphor of what an enfant terrible is. That's probably the best solution.

>image of a broken sand castle and a tilted candle in a cup cake

That’s more enfant than terrible to me and the metaphor won’t work, I think your decision to work with type is a better solution.

Tim

> an Enfant Terrible seems almost impossible to turn into an image at this point.

Not an image, that's always too literal to make a good logo - you want a symbol.

hhp

"Turning it poetic and letting an image be a metaphor of what an enfant terrible is."
Maybe you missed that sentence? That actually means finding a "symbol" for it. And when I used the word "image" I meant something other than text. A symbol isn't text (type), is it?

"Find your own example."

That cracked me up.

My contribution toward this concept:

Fawn - Pan

Daniel Denk - "Find your own example" - Who wrote that?

Interesting choice - Fawn - Pan. :-)

I would like to categorically state that Al Pacino is the most hackneyed actor ever. He is a caricature of his caricature, a blasphemy on the name of acting, which is blasphemy in itself.

Huh!?

Paul Cutler - You are far too deep for me. I didn't get that. :-)

Pacino is a joke (altho what that has to do with this thread eludes me) and DeNiro is rapidly heading down the same path.

TypeCast dot us - is available ;)

_________
Hiro

Isn't it irony that while I'm sitting here referencing typographers of the past -- and noting and referencing their brilliance in contribution to the progression of typography -- that I then come to a forum where the idea that any actor whom has shaped an end-result in the relative progression of acting, to be 'a joke' is present.

Perhaps I respect our elders a little more. If what one means is the issue of 'relevence', then perhaps the context is more culturally appropriate toward their time in contribution.

But I digress...

enfant terrible = no

adulte terrible = oui

i was just thinking about dennis the menace, but then i thought about bart simpson and his stone thingy i would understand the message to that: