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I have spent the past 3 weeks trying to obtain every piece of information about Carol Twombly for a project in my typography class. I keep seeing things on the web about interviews with her.
If anyone knows where (website) I can find an interview with her it would extremely helpful.
I am also looking for information about her life today. Is she married? any kids? that kind of information. The last thing I found is that she retired from Adobe.
Nicole, I think what does no one any favors is refusing to think; in this case about the relevance of gender. One thing that seems impossible to refute to me is that physical differences exist (including in the brain's structure). What do those differences translate into? I don't pretend to really know myself, although I can be sure that we are better at different things. In any case I refuse to avoid thinking. It's what actions you take with your thoughts that counts. And political correctness is for politicians.
On the other hand I do realize now that "woman-killer" was
way too strong; better would have been... woman-slower-downer. :-)
BTW, from the enrollees in my typeface design class I certainly know that women very much want to be type designers - in fact they seem to outnumber men in that now (although part of it must be a "fallout" from the much greater proportion of women in graphic design as a whole, and the general perception that type design is a subset of graphic design).
> I think we can take it as a given that this reflects
> social pressures, not their “feminine nature”.
Certainly (and I mentioned that myself previously). Like I happen to know that as of a few years ago there were only two women tow-truck drivers in the state of California*, and social expectation must be like 90% of the reason.
* BTW, I discovered this because one of them was Armenian. :-)
> I do like the simplicity of an optical axis going evenly from 8 to 72
But -as you used to say, and I've come to realize- the desirability of that depends on the nature of the design at hand. Think of making even a moderately faithful revival of Caslon in MM, which naturally includes optical scaling - especially in things like the italic "Q": http://themicrofoundry.com/other/caslon_q.gif _
It's not only non-linear, but actually exhibits a -sensical- topological difference!
hhp
"Nicole, I think what does no one any favors is refusing to think"
I couldn't agree more. But, sometimes people think out loud before they have something useful to say (that's not a dig, just a comment...).
Discussions around women's achievements too often include wild (WILD!) speculation about why women are or aren't involved. I don't discount gender difference, but prefer to see it is just one of many factors that go into someone/anyone choosing type design as a career. It's important to look at a number of factors (notably the system through which typefaces get created and published and how a career in type design is formed) and not just what inner qualities women may or may not possess.
Ok, enough chatter, I've got to get back to designing type. :)
Hmm. Intresting to hear, as a newcomer to the forum, where I am most likely lacking some designer qualities because of my gender... Although I am happy to realise, that should I ever want to better my performance, I could consider lesbianism or bisexuality. :) (This is the year 2007, isn't it?)
Just wait and see, we are not in a status quo. The more evolved the society, the more there will be women in traditionally male occupations and vice versa. And the differences talked about will not be those between sexes, but those between individuals. The latter part should be true already, but unfortunately isn't, since people seem to love the stereotypes to great extent.
Hrant, having followed a little bit the brain research and also the studies on what constructs a gender, I can affirm that – despite the efforts – there has not been any findings to support what you are hinting (about the differences between sexes due to brain or other factors). The current paradigm is that one's intrest and talent in engineering, mathematics, painting, typography, graphic design, or what ever else has been mentioned, are for the most part due to culture and upbringing, that is socialisation. Not to brains, hormones or even genetics. Any other paradigms remain to be proven.
And this was first concluded in 1949 by the famous French philosopher Simone de Beauvoir.
> sometimes people think out loud before they have something useful to say
Better than the opposite in my book!
BTW, it's quite interesting that nobody seems to mind Bill's view concerning the inferiority of men in designing text faces - which I actually think has some validity. If this seems confusing, it might be because some people want to think in absolutes, not nuances, ambivalence and complexity.
> The more evolved the society, the more there will be
> women in traditionally male occupations and vice versa.
I would be cautious in calling it "evolved". In my view women were "liberated" from parenting essentially to become slaves for the rich. And compulsory public education (which is essentially a free brainwashing and babysitting service) goes hand-in-hand with that.
> there has not been any findings to support what you are hinting
Except for plain old common sense, which in this male-dominated society
has been demoted. What's most sad is whem women join in to this delusion.
> for the most part
You said it, not me.
Chris, your attitude is a classic deluded Americanism, designed to keep the peons merrily voting.
hhp
>BTW, it’s quite interesting that nobody seems to mind Bill’s view concerning the inferiority of men in designing text faces - which I actually think has some validity
Well thanks Hrant for the compliment of elevating anything I might innocently say into a 'view'. I'm much too impulsive to have views by and large. I do think men tend to be more egocentric than women, less able to share achievement (though obviously not, for example, Japanese men) . . . . and I think type is best done co-operatively. That really is a view. It has been evolving for a long, long, time. Yet Matthew Carter criticizes me for what he regards as my excessive dependence on other peoples' opinions. 'When are you going to learn to fly solo?' he asked me -- twelve years ago. I have only gotten more neurotic since.
I really also sense that we are on the verge of true changes in gender equality. I do think that women growing up now -- many of them -- will be able to think and do as well as men -- and perhaps men growing up now will be able to do likewise?
Again I really do recommend Ronell's 'The Test Drive' as a foundational thought provoking book for this era.
One thing I would like to point out about Adobe is that Carol had problems, and some of them had to do with the fact that she was a woman and had been trained to be compliant. However, the men had their problems too, and some of them were the same problems. So to a certain extent, it's unfair to bring gender into it, yet you certainly can't leave it out either. It's the corporate control structure that was the cause of all these problems. Yet without the corporate control structure, and all that entailed, you would not have had these designers working in a somewhat collaborative environment, which is good. Apparently there are no right answers. So maybe I've been asking the wrong questions?
>always entertaining
Harvard's faculty was less than amused when President Larry Summers raised this issue.
He was ultimately forced to resign, in circumstances explained in this article by Alan Dershowitz.
Always entertaining that it is the boys discussing how or what the girls are capable of doing.
Yes it is! You beat me to it, Tiff. :) I was next waiting for the discussion on the merits of natural childbirth.
Also check out this thread for more on female type designers. Please add to the list.
William: Yes, the tyranny of silencing anti-establishment thought now extends even to the highest echelons of US education. You have made your system hermetic; which means however than when the time comes your fall will be gargantuan. As it was with Rome.
Terry, childbirth is actually a central key to this discussion. Let's see Chris deliver... BTW, I remember when my wife was pregnant, seeing her delight when the baby started kicking, deep down I was envious (if otherwise I was relieved to be well clear of bearing children :-) which was a jolting and bitter-sweet realization for me. But anyway it is not meant to be. And that sort of human reality permeates everything.
--
BTW, something that's even more relevant than social "conditioning" and certainly gender in terms of what we end up doing in life is Circumstance, what life throws at us. Would Carter have ended up designing type if his father wasn't involved in type? And what about his father's father's circumstances? It all blends into the dark strands of history, and we have no control. This BTW is something the West has great trouble with.
hhp
Feeling the strongest feminine instinctual urge (or would that be desire? or hysteria?) to quote Woolf and her "on women" library list as well as the bit about Shakespeare's sister.
Would have loved to have been able to present this thread in my writing by women class (offered as part of the Simone de Beauvoir Institute...)
There really should be studies to look at the phenomena of men who try to solve the "Feminine problem." It sounds like often the "feminine problem" exists because men have assigned it that label, and acted accordingly.
Keep it up, the discussion is interesting and provoking.
Little known fact: "Live long and Prosper" is a loose translation of the traditional Jewish greeting "Shalom U'vracha". It is accompanied in Star Trek by Leonard Nimoy giving a hand sign with the four fingers divided in the middle into a 'V', the sign indicating a Hebrew letter 'Shin', abbreviation for one of the names of God, and used by those in the Priestly class--cohanim--to bless the congregation.
And subsequently Leonard Nimoy, who is Jewish, showed his devotion to his faith by publishing a book of photos of young naked women wrapped in transparent prayer shawls.
All true!
And that's why Hrant is such a trekkie! (not true :)
I like the original Star Trek series, but none of the newer ones. And to make a Trekkie comment that's not a self-aggrandizing distraction from the topic(s) at hand, I would point out that Kirk's behavior towards women is now considered politically incorrect, which to me is most of all an indication of how shallow and coercive we've become. Bill, "on the verge of true changes in gender equality"? Equality is death - the great dehumanizer.
hhp
A 22-page (!) article on Carol Twombly and her type design work at Adobe in the early 90s can be found in Design Graphics magazine, issue #4. What's amazing is that you can still buy this back issue direct from the magazine in Australia.
http://www.designgraphics.com.au/issues/backissues.php
I read this at the time and it was one of the things that seriously cemented my interest in type design back then. Good article.
Thanks to Christopher Slye for digging this up. I still have it around here somewhere as well.
Cheers,
T
This is becoming an awfully long thread AND completely off topic — but today (when looking for FontStudio software) I found this:
http://faculty.mdc.edu/earteaga/gra1206/1206l10.html
May be of interest to the original poster.
>but today (when looking for FontStudio software)
If you're looking for FontStudio, you're looking in the wrong place. You want the latest beta, the PPC/FPU version if you're on a reasonably modern Mac. Works fine last time I tried it. I got my copy from Harold Grey when he was still the bootblack at ITC and passed it on to Lucas de Groot . . . and Carol Twombly.
I don't think I like the metrics editing, which I admit I can't figure out, but I love the fact that if a point is selected, tab/shift-tab brings you to the next/previous handle, node -- it's much more useful than what we now have in Flab, and of course far more useful than Fog in this respect. This is a beautiful fine tuning tool. You're on a handle, you adjust with the cursor; you tab over to the next handle on the path, adjust, tab to that next node, adjust, tab to its handles, tab to the next node's handles . . . . etc. What an exquisite way to fine-tune an outline, and you never have to do something so inane and cumbersome and time consuming, and interruptive of your creative flow as look for your mouse cursor, fiddle with it, etc. etc. This is how it should be. It is creative heaven, provided by machines. Yuri, instead of having tab (a character whose significance you too often ignore) move you from handle to node to handle, and back again, it would be wonderful if you let tab take you to the next node, just as FontStudio does. This tab action, of course, will only take place when a node is selected, and it will only, as so elegantly implemented in Font Studio, work for selected nodes. You have what seems to me rather a wrong thing going on, which is that handles can't be edited while several nodes are selected, since navigating to a handle automatically deselects the selection. Why is that? FontStudio doesn't seem to have a problem with it. And by the way, am I the only person who thinks that the use of Tab in the Flab glyph window when nothing is selected -- turning on and off the rudimentary and useless character selection panel -- is a waste of a good control character?
But plenty of people have seen me and Carol in the same place at one time. Sorry. ;)
However, lots of non-native English speakers seem to think the 2 names are the same....
Kim Buker Chansler did the design of the Woodtype 3 package, and I filled out the character set and finished the outlines and spacing, under Carol Twombly's direction. So, each of us were involved, but not in the same capacity. You could call the roles Designer, Production, and Art Direction. I needed a lot more direction then, and Carol was very encouraging and reassuring to work with.
>Didn’t FontStudio fade away into oblivion years ago?
There are those who still use it. The main reason is that there is NOTHING that will let you gracefully flit from point to point, handle handle, using just the tab keys and cursor keys, while you perfect your curves. It is one of the most powerful creative experiences the computer allows. If you are really interested in perfecting your letter shapes, FontStudio's mechanism is glorious. Yuri, is there any reason not to put this into Fontlab?
Also nice is the 800% zoom. Not even FontLab has that, though Fog5 went to 3200% and I sometimes wished it would do more.
The main limitation of FontStudio for me, for the project that I would most have liked to use it, was that it only worked in integer point units and I wanted the extra precision that Fog 4/5 (or Ikarus/whatever DTL calls it now) allow.
Carol used to say she could not bear to draw in anything else.
I believe the code is owned by Adobe now . . . . which swallowed up the brilliant engineers who did that (and Chameleon, etc. etc.) and were never heard of again -- was Russ McCann the lead? Yes, see http://www.ucmsds.com/company/who_officers.cfm for what has become of him. I wonder who actually does own the code still? But I'm pretty sure it's Adobe. Hey, does anyone have a Chameleon beta 2?
> I wanted the extra precision
But it's a deceptively dangerous precision, since when you generate a font it all gets rounded to integers anyway. If you want more precision you use a larger EM, but that limits you to TT fonts, in which case your precision is toast if you draw in cubic beziers (since they get converted, not supremely faithfully, to quadratics).
hhp
>> I wanted the extra precision
>But it’s a deceptively dangerous precision, since when you generate a font it all gets rounded to integers anyway. If you want more precision you use a larger EM, but that limits you to TT fonts, in which case your precision is toast if you draw in cubic beziers (since they get converted, not supremely faithfully, to quadratics).
You're missing the point, Hrant. How type gets processed today is a temporary thing; PostScript and TrueType weren't the first digital systems for processing type, and they won't be the last. There are designers who are unhappy about the current limitations of PS and TT. (Just think about a sans Z -- you may want it raised it 1/2 or 3/4 of a unit off the baseline; you don't want it by a full unit, to give a very simple example; you may take that if it's all you can get, but you know it's not the ideal.). Just ask Bitstream if they're going to throw away their master data at 15,000 units just because an inferior system has sway for this decade and last decade, but certainly not the next, or the one after that, unless it gains a little more precision. You want the satisfaction of knowing that, however you output your type today, you can design it to higher resolution and you can confidently hope that one day it will be possible for it to be outputted at higher resolution.
The other overwhelming reason for higher precision is to avoid the round-off errors that often occur during transformation operations. Serioius Fontlab and Robofab users now have some facility for doing this, but it all seems kludgy.
Chris, I am running FontStudio 2.02 Beta 1 Plus under Classic on OS 10.4.8, and don't seem to notice any problems. All this and the code is just over 1MB.
Berthold had the same concerns about the PS conversions of their full-res Ikarus data, and their concerns were essentially laid to rest. Adapting type designs to fit an 18 or 24 unit system is a problem; 1000 units really isn't all that shabby. And, as has been pointed out, you're welcome to work at any scale you want. Keep the data and see what happens. I just think that whatever design you come up with, fitting the curve elements onto a 1000-unit grid is not much of a compromise. It's simply one of the challenges of the current format, and given all the other advantages we have (wild kerns, contextual substitution, excruciating precision, huge character sets, limitless design options, overlapping shapes), it's not a deal-breaker.
> How type gets processed today is a temporary thing
Temporary? For an oak tree maybe. For actual users it's Reality.
> Just ask Bitstream if they’re going to throw
> away their master data at 15,000 units
Please re-read what I wrote about large EMs vs floating point.
> 1000 units really isn’t all that shabby.
It's not shabby as a design space, but it's very
much problematic as a "blind rounding" space.
hhp
Hrant: Because what’s hard to pull off is being called a philosopher a couple of millennia after you’re dead. Of those, the only female we seem to have is Sappho.
There are actually quite a lot of female philosophers of antiquity, of whom Hypatia of Alexandria is probably the most famous; during her life, she was considered by many the most important neo-platonist of either sex. Sappho was a lyric poet, and while you might find some of her verse 'philosophical' -- which is today used as a synonym for thought-provoking -- it generally does not fit the classical understanding of philosophy. It is significant that Sappho's name does not appear in this list, for example,
By the way, speaking of women philosophers of antiquity, the one who should be best known to typographers is Diotima, after whom Gudrun Zapf von Hesse named one of her typefaces.
> it generally does not fit the classical understanding of philosophy.
It doesn't fit the contemporary mainstream formal Western definition of philosophy.
And it remains that Sappho is the only one familiar to most people. This is something everybody, including people immersed in formal philosophy, need to come to grips with.
hhp
Hrant, do you mean this?
>But the point is no size of integer EM during output is going to match a floating-point scheme during design. With floating-point you’re always working with a degree of precision that will get amputated, unmanageably.
I think you are wrong but don't worry, nobody expects you to admit it. I suspect that when we speak of floating point points, we are in practice still speaking of a limited degree of float. I doubt the Fog database format stores data to more than two decimal places. Suppose there was one decimal place: that would be a space of 10,000 units; if there were two decimal palces, that would be 100,000 units. Yuri would know.
Postscript will sooner or later move to floating point because it has nowhere else to go -- in fact, David Lemon has explained that to a certain extent it already has done so. (I don't recall exactly how to get it to work, but apparently it _can_ work.) I can see all kinds of benefits to this precision even where there the output cannot resolve the available precision. For example, hinting algorithms could be much more accurate, couldn't they?
Sure, if the decimal places are severly limited it would be the same (and I do mean the same - as in no point doing it!) as a large EM - although as you see even two decimal places is equivalent to an EM much bigger than anybody uses. But it's probably not limited to anything that small, because of the way floating point numbers are typically represented in computers (what they sacrifice is precision in very small differences).
Now if I'm wrong, I'll have no problem admitting it. In the interim though I think you might want to admit that a lack of mathematical affinity is most likely causing you confusion. :-)
> I can see all kinds of benefits to this precision
There are hypothetical benefits, but practical drawbacks.
You choose.
hhp
But Hrant, who are these people who think of Sappho as a philosopher rather than as a poet? I simply have not come across this view before. It seems to me both highly unlikely and unsupported by a) the relatively few and fragmentary surviving writings by her and b) her reputation in classical Greece. Her writing is lyrical poetry mainly concerned with love. Hence, she is known as a lyrical poet. And a very fine one. This isn't in any way do dismiss her wisdom, which Aristotle acknowledged, but the ancients made a distinction between philosophy and wisdom literature that our language doesn't reflect very well.
Just to be clear: I'm not saying Sappho was any the less for being a poet rather than a philosopher. Heck, I'd rather read poetry than philosophy any day of the week.
This thread had some interesting comments that helped me to go trough all of it's lenght.
Which are those professions or occupations where women outnumber man? Dance would be one of them, maybe education, fashion, interior design and graphic design (there were at least twice woman than man when I was at design school). What else?
In Mx figures show that women are starting to slightly outnumber man on may careers at the universities with better grades also. This trend will show in a few years on the professional world.
I must admit this pleases me because it's a sign of reivindication but also scares a bit the little macho in me... I guess many man live these times with the satisfaction of knowing that a fairest world is being achieved for woman and man but also with the slight fear of lossing ground. I don't know, maybe it's just me exposing my own prejudice.
Héctor
Hrant: Think instead of why most people cannot name a female philosopher.
I imagine a lot of people can't name a philosopher of either sex. If they can, chances are that it is a long-dead philosopher. If you take into account that women were excluded from the institutions of higher education for so long, that the university, for most of its history, was a specifically masculine academy, while at the same time the university became the seat of philosophy, I think it is pretty obvious why most people cannot name a female philosopher. The framework within which philosophy has been predominantly pursued in the west for seven or eight hundred years has only relatively recently been open to women.
By the way, on the subject of lesbianism and its connection to the island of Lesbos, I chanced to receive via an ancient near east listerve today a review of a new book on 'sex and gender in ancient Greece and Rome', which included these interesting comments:
Regarding the toponymic Greek verb lesbiazein "to perform ****," Krenkel is misled (p. 207) by the prejudice, as old as Hesychius, that the verb etymologically means "to act like a woman from Lesbos," while the ancient testimonia rather indicate that the euphemism rather means to act like "a person (i.e. either man or woman, indiscriminately) from Lesbos." A small point, true, but perhaps one that may throw light both of the verb itself as well as potential biasses in the glosses of Hesychius. On the next page, Krenkel also incorrectly states that the Greek verb phoinikizein (etymologically, "to act like a Phoenician") also means "to perform ****," when it actually means "to perform ****." Again, a point like this matters, not only for lexicographers who collect such things, but because it bears on the interpretation of literary texts; thus, for instance, when we find that a prostitute in Plautus' Pseudolus is named "Phoenicium," (Phoinik-ion) her name does not really imply "Miss Suckly" (as once suggested by W. M. Calder III in CP 70 [1975] p. 147, and quoted with approval by Krenkel p. 208 n. 8), and thereby indicate that **** is the special services which she performs for her clients; Plautus is rather openly and constantly advertising the predilections of her rival clients Calidorus (cf. his snivelling in Scene 1) and the Macedonian soldier ("dentatus" [!], v. 1040), and the privileges for which they are all too happy to pay her. (One could perhaps compare the famous fresco from the apodyterium of the terme suburbane in Pompeii, reproduced as fig. 14 in Antonio Varone's Erotica Pompeiana [Rome, 1994], p. 207.)
So there you have it: Lesbos wasn't known for its lesbians, but notorious for its fellatalists of both sexes.
[I've only skimmed this long and bizarre thread, and I still don't quite understand how Sappho and the Lesbians/lesbians got involved!]
Yes, but my basic point remains: philosophy has for a very long time been pursued almost exclusively within the context of institutions that were not open to women*, so the reason why most people can't name a female philsopher is linked to the fact there have not been very many women philosophers until recently, and they are still a minority in the philosophy departments of universities. [I happen to know some female philsophers personally.]
Most people cannot name any female soccer players either. But of the people who can name an opera singer I'm sure all could name a female opera singer, and pretty much everyone can name a female pop singer.
*There is, by the way, a significant body of 'philsophical' writing, in the broader sense encompassing wisdom literature, by women that comes out of monastic institutions, and this includes works of philosophy as well as theology. Edith Stein is a good recent example of someone who studied philosophy (specifically, phenomenology, within the context of the monastic life.
You're consistently skirting my basic premise: that social "role-pressures" cannot fully account for the lop-sidedness. Which is unsurprising based simply on the conviction that it does not make sense for there to be no fundamental differences between men and women. What does your religion say about this?
hhp
Gayaneh Bagdasaryan.
http://www.myfonts.com/person/bagdasaryan/gayaneh/
hhp
Hrant: You’re consistently skirting my basic premise: that social “role-pressures” cannot fully account for the lop-sidedness. Which is unsurprising based simply on the conviction that it does not make sense for there to be no fundamental differences between men and women. What does your religion say about this?
I'm not skirting your basic premise. I think 'role pressures' is to vague a concept to which to nail anything, so I was looking at concrete systemic reasons that might account for the relatively few number of women in the history of philosophy. And it seems to me that the fact that there are now considerable numbers of women in the philosophy departments of universities does suggest that the previous barring of women from such positions is a contributing factor. As I wrote, I know some women philosophers.
Yes, there are fundamental differences between men and women, but before one can assume a causal relationship between these differences and particular social phenomena one must also look at potential social causes.
>>> I was looking at concrete systemic reasons
>>> Yes, I know, that’s always the problem.
Lol. So you're suggesting intuition, gut instinct, or a message from the Virgin Mary as better methods?
The subject of what drives people to make the choices they do, or be interested in particular pursuits/careers/hobbies is so wide, deep, and encompassing that I am certain we will not be able to reduce it to either social pressure or innate, gender-determined preferences to the exclusion of other motivating factors. Nor will we arrive at a definitive conclusion in this thread. People are a helluva lot more complex than that--women too. Arguing for or against either position is just ridiculous, ignorant, or playing devil's advocat. Oh wait! Or men being typically (naturally?) pig-headed. (oops, did I say that out loud?) ;)
C'mon! Give it up already.
I find, going back to the original post, that the whole concept of wanting to know if a type designer is married or has children somewhat suspect to begin with. Who cares? Is it really pertinent to the validity or success of the typeface, or to the designer's ability? Not so much. Incidental, environmental. Ok sure, we could say some things about overcoming obstacles and the demands of raising a family or the sacrifices required by certain social situations. We could also draw some very nebulous conclusions about soft lines and sweet bezier curves or hard angular lines and gender preference, we could even get into the length of the descender, the shape of the bowls and counters... but would you really reduce a person's professional achievements to such inanities? And if so, they must be equally pertinent when looking at male designers, although I would suspect in their case, the family/gender/sexuality issue is generally entirely ignored.
Start first by looking at the artist's art, not at the artist.
The things that make me tick, you would never entirely -- not even largely -- deduce from my gender. The reasons I have made the choices, had the successes, had the failures that I have in my life are far too varied and layered to be reduced to merely my gender or my social environment. To suggest that they might be somehow dulls the human experience, don't you think?
Discussing gender theory, identity, sexual politics, and societal-gender factors is great, but let's not confuse it with making sweeping generalizations about either sex based on feelings or impressions. Perhaps we could even discuss it for what it is, without using our generalizations, assumptions and hearsay to draw conclusions about a specific person.
/grumbles off to bed.
> I am certain we will not be able to reduce it to either
> social pressure or innate, gender-determined preferences
> to the exclusion of other motivating factors.
Not more certain than I am.
> Start first by looking at the artist’s art, not at the artist.
First, shmirst. You look at as much as you can.
hhp
Yeah, like Hrant would ever admit that…. ;-)
:-D
Kristina, everything you said... hear, hear!
And Hrant, you were only able to come up with one female type designer? Come on, make an effort, man!
I just want to make a scientific argument that, before our gender is determined, four weeks after fertilization, we are all the same.
P.S. No one noticed that I set the word balloon of the caveman drawing in Lithos... *sigh*
Hrant: Aren’t there like seven intelligenceses or something? How many you want lady?
ROFLMAO! "Self-referential" doesn't count, though.
Ricardo: P.S. No one noticed that I set the word balloon of the caveman drawing in Lithos… *sigh*
waving hand
Me, me, I did: just thought it was so obvious that it would have been poor form on my part to point it out.
No, really....
Yeah, you're right Linda... It was too obvious to be mentioned.
I noticed that the caveman baloon was in Lithos but did not get it beyond that.
Chris, the caveman thing needs some explaining because I was trying to be subtle and go easy on the people airing their views about the supposed differences between men and women... I was trying to say that these views of man's supposed superiority have been superceded, proved wrong, et cetera! I was originally gonna look for a picture of cavemen arguing, or maybe even a caveman dragging a woman around by the hair... :-D
In the end I went with the idea that even a caveman sees that women are superior... Trying to make my point without hitting anybody over the head with my club, so to speak... ;-) But probably I was too subtle or obscure... And, uh, should I also say that the caveman is quoting an old song that both Harry Belafonte and Robert Palmer used to sing? :-)
> these views of man’s supposed superiority
Nobody ever said that here, least of all me!
Just because such idiocy has been common, and in fact often institutionalized, doesn't make it a good idea to lash out blindly. You'll hit friendlies.
What I'm trying to fight is idiocy in an opposite extreme: that there are no differences between men and women. This is an increasing problem, especially in the West, and it's turning us all into objects - machines for making the rich richer.
hhp
"But probably I was too subtle or obscure… And, uh, should I also say that the caveman is quoting an old song that both Harry Belafonte"
Ricardo,
I understood the cartoon right away (and I know the Belafonte song too "Smarter than the man in every way"). I just did not get what was significant about the choice of Lithos as a typeface. I know Lithos means stone but beyond that, is there something more?
ChrisL
I know it was designed by Twombly but this thread hasn't been talking about her for days so It never occured to me (he said while trying to figure out what a rousing feminist was and how he got to be one all of a sudden).
ChrisL
PS: I know that I don't know women. I am not that naive. I also know that there are no women who are "My Women".
This is an increasing problem, especially in the West,
To me, it seems that things are going backwards since 20/30 years ago, with sexual identity in the West becoming more polarized and cliched, and that surely is far easier for capitalists to manipulate and objectify, as sex sells. Just track the increasing sexualization of My Little Pony over the years, or compare Barbie with Bratz. Pretty soon Mommy will be putting makeup on baby girls, and giving Jnr a military buzzcut every bathtime.
So while not denying that there are innate physical differences between people, I'd prefer to ignore them, especially in the professional world.
> sexual identity in the West becoming more polarized and cliched
True, but this is largely superficial. When it comes to "serious" social debate the total lack of poles is even more worrisome. As for what capitalism leverages, selling more products thanks to gender difference is one thing, making slaves more plentiful and more pliant is another.
> I’d prefer to ignore
Won't be the first thing [in type].
hhp
i’m quite certain that Nick’s Bulgarian Cyrillics will be well-informed, and he’ll probably be the first western type designer to even take Bulgarian preferences into consideration!
No not the first. Luc(as) de Groot has holidayed in Bulgaria and I believe has incorporated Bulgarian variant forms into some of his fonts.
More interestingly, although contentiously, there is some evidence that those Bulgarian preferences were actually invented by a western type designer. Albert Kapr, from the Hochschule in Leipzig, was very involved with the development of design education in Bulgaria in the 1960s, and according to Maxim there is some evidence that at least some of the Bulgarian variant letterforms originate in Kapr's ideas. Some, like the ascending lowercase zhe, are also found in certain styles of Russian script types, but the application of these features to all styles of type, as in Bulgaria, seems to be a novelty.
http://typophile.com/node/4933 _
Search for "Bulgarian".
BTW, I think Bulgarians consider themselves "westerners".
On the other side of the coin, some people would claim that
Leipzig is on the border. :-)
--
BTW, with this new Central European digression I now agree with Christopher: although a lot of threads have been crazy, this one, with its combination of sex, contentious claims and very broad spectrum just might be the craziest (so far).
hhp
> these views of man’s supposed superiority
Nobody ever said that here, least of all me!
Just because such idiocy has been common, and in fact often institutionalized, doesn’t make it a good idea to lash out blindly. You’ll hit friendlies.
But Hrant, all of your arguments made it sound -- to me at least, granted -- that you were implying that... If all you wanted to say was that men and women are different, you should have just said so. :-)
Captured from commoncrawl.org on 19 Apr 2015. original URL
