I am Music, the most ancient of the arts. I am more than ancient: I am eternal. Before the earth began, I was already there, in the winds and in the waves. When the first trees, flowers and fields appeared, I was among them. And when man appeared I became immediately the most delicate, the lightest and the strongest way of expression of Man's emotions.

When men were little more than beasts I had an influence for their good. In all the ages I inspired men with hope, set alight their love, gave voice to their joys, I made them happy for the courageous acts and comforted them in the desperate moments. I played an important part in the life drama that has for aim and goal the complete perfection of Man's nature. Through my influence, the human nature has been raised, mitigated and sharpened. With men's help I became an Art. I have a multiplicity of voices and instruments.

I stand in the heart of all men and on their tongues in all the lands, among all the people; the ignorant and the illiterate know me as the rich and the scholar do because I speak to all men in a language they all understand. Even the deaf can hear me if he only listens the voice of his soul. I am the food of love. I taught men mildness and peace and I guided them towards heroic acts. I give comfort to the lonely and I harmonize the discord of the crowds. I am a necessary luxury for all men. I am Music.

Anonymous

It is a sad Christmas indeed. :(

I (don't) feel good.
I knew that I would (this day) now.

Can you see the light?

(And with the homage of Weird Al) Living with a hernia.

Papa's got a brand new bag....

Unfortunately.

My son is going to be devistated. James Brown is his favorite performer of all time.

ChrisL

Yeah, I know. My regular grocery store (the local equivalent of Giant Foods, Chris) ran a campaign a few years ago with the "I Feel Good" tag and music: it was great, and moved them into being the most popular shop here in town.

My son is autistic. He will always be remembered at the Special Olympics for belting out his perfect imitation of JB from the medal platform after winning first place in the 200 meter freestyle, "I Fe-e-e-e-e-l GOOD!" He rocked the place!

ChrisL

I bet. :-)

For me (and my daughter) he will always be remembered as the highlight of Rocky IV.

Peace, Si

Now THAT is funky…

RIP JB

peace

James Brown was a great innovator, and one of the greatest performers. I love him as a balladeer particularly.

As an innovator, he was particulary important in rhythm. Be-bop had changed jazz from a traditional blues rhythm, which breaks the 4 beats down further into doublets or triplets, to a 16th note feel. As I see it, James Brown did this in a different way in rock, and introduced a new rhythmic feel, which was hugely influential.

Just as Charlie Parker kept a blues feel even while playing much faster, James Brown kept a blues feel even in his faster rhythms. But unfortunately the followers IMHO have not been able to do it so well. And as a result the sense of 'swing' in both Jazz and Rock have declined.

At least that's how one 'old school' guy feels.

Chris, tell me you've got some video footage of that! :)

James Brown: he didn't know karate, but he knew ka-razy. Still a staple in our iTunes music rotation. :)

Oh man, this sucks. Big time.
RIP

Sorry Terry no video :-(

ChrisL

Don't forget the work he did for civil rights for black people. A lot more than an entertainer.

I saw him once on the street in front of the Plaza Hotel, at least 10 years ago. He was wearing a shiny green suit and his usual platform shoes. Made my day.

The hardest working man in show business.

The Godfather of Soul.

Have any of you seen a video of the T.A.M.I. Show, ca. 1964? An eclectic assortment of pop stars including James Brown at his VERY BEST!!!! J.B. made Mick and the others seem like silly children! Well worth the effort to find a copy of this video!
DB~

A Turkish friend now at Pordue reminded me Ahmet Ertegun's death as well, I post it with pleasure : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_Ertegun

James Brown stands equal with other masters of Rhythm like Bach and Mozart et al! He was a refined force of rhythmic genius and well understood music's techniques such as syncopation.

And from his pulpit of Funk/Soul he preached the gospel of Life, life as a black man in America, for America itself, and spoke for us all with songs like 'I got You', 'How do you stop', 'It's a man's man's man's world', 'I know you got Soul', etc., etc...
I think he will be viewed as one of the most influential men in American history - black, white or whatever.

And man, am I ever going to miss him.

________
Hiro

ChrisL

The universe remains in balance:
James Brown dies.
The anti-James Brown, Gerald Ford dies.

DB~

What perfect rhythm he must have displayed when beating his wife...

I agree. Let's not get carried away with his great character - great music yes, a shining example no…

peace

It will be interesting to see all the pomp they trot out for ex-prez Ford. Never elected, never respected, the only thing he did of note was to pardon Nixon. And to live a long time. His wife actually has made more of an impact.

>I agree. Let’s not get carried away with his great character - great music yes, a shining example no…

Of course the same could be said for Gill, Griffo and other people from the world of type...

The Vietnam War ended during Gerald Ford's watch. For that alone I will always respect him.

peace

Paul -- The Vietnam War ended under Richard Nixon's watch. He was the president that called our troops home. I can remember the day clearly - I was a college student -- and was working in a restaurant at nights. The group of us at the restaurant and told the ceiling to let Johnson know the war he escalated was now over.

Gerald Ford was not a great leader - he was a good follower. At the time he was appointed President, I know personally, I was very upset. He was the first president we ever had that was not elected by the people. I felt this country should of had a special election -- but you know, it never really matters the political machine continues to churn.

As for James Brown. thank you Chris and Paul. He may have been loved by many for his music and his innovations in the music world - but not an example to show our children -- unless of course you want to show his time served in South Carolina to them - and let them know there is still hope after jail.

Sorry to sound so cynical this morning -- just we tend to honor many of the wrong people. Our children are in need of heroes and good-doers. We give them glitz and show them a way of life they will probably never have. I think I prefer living with people who have their dreams, but keep their feet on the ground.

Ford told NY to Drop Dead. For that alone I will always reject him.

"Hero worship, in anyone save a child, is indissolubly linked to its obverse, which is despisal. Admiration, however, is a different, less morally questionable quality. Admiration is not born of sentimental irreason. It is occasioned by achievements rather than personality, by the work rather than the man. Demagogues depend upon the human capacity to be incited to adulation. Artists don’t."

Jonathan Meades wrote this.

Thanks Chris for raising the issues of JB's backstage achievements, so to speak.

>Our children are in need of heroes and good-doers. We give them glitz

You don't have to give them glitz. If you give them your own example of being an honest, caring and responsible human being, you have a very good shot at counteracting the shallow and destructive messages in the popular culture. Parents are by far the most powerful influence on children--even though we have a lot of competition these days.

My lottery number for the draft was #2 so I was pretty interested in the Vietnam War.

My memory ranks a bit lower than that I suppose. Not surprising considering what I was up to in the early 70s. :)

Didn't the draft end under President Ford or was it just before he took office? I know it was 1973 because that was going to be my year - to do whatever it took to get out of it…

peace

Can you imagine what the Pollyanna/revisionists will say some day when George W.Bush dies?!?! God.... I hope I'm long gone before this happens!
DB~

The draft ended in 1973.

Nixon resigned August 8, 1974. - That was also a summer I spent in London and realized that their newspapers and televisions were censored... they never heard the entire speech Nixon made live to the American public. Favorite comment that day was from an Englishman who looked me in the face and said, "American has just hit puberty."

And DaKine - I'm with you - I'm scared how these folks would rewrite it all - especially since we were there to experience it. (Is this like Iran not believing the holocaust took place?)

And Patty - I'll hate Mayor Beame way before I'd take it out on Ford. Beame had been controller for the city and knew where all the money was. When he took office he decided we need a tax upping - I think we went from the 6 or 7 right to 8% (the .25 was added a year or so later) no vote on the matter - no going over the books to see if the city needed to do this -- and when it was done, he very nicely announced to the papers he found several "city bank accounts" and we didn't need the sales tax hike, but (and with a broad smile) said he was keeping it in place anyway... Our whole Federal government at that point told us to bug off...

>”As for James Brown. thank you Chris ...
Our children are in need of heroes and good-doers. “

Sometimes someone can be a “good-doer” without even knowing it. I owe a special gratitude to James Brown, Little Richard, Aretha Franklin, Wilson Pickett and Tina Turner. My son is autistic and did not speak or understand language or even respond to his name until he was 4 years old. Part of the reason for his breakthrough to communication was his response to R&B music, mostly James Brown. While I was playing some of my old R&B recordings, I noticed that Michael was responding with body movement in sync with the music. His first attempts at speech were mouthing sounds in response to James Brown’s music. We found videos of JBs performances and showed Michael. This even made the effect stronger. A rare smile came to his face. In time, he was imitating both sound and movement. Eventually, he learned the complete “I feel Good” cut and it became part of the launch-pad for speech. Today he has full speech and understanding (to the point where he never stops talking).
I am sure James Brown did nothing on purpose to help Michael but, never-the-less, he has. Call me a Pollyanna/revisionist if you like but I can’t ever forget that moment when Michael first said “I feel good”.

ChrisL

Thank you ChrisL for sharing this. Nice to for me to put one positive mark next to the man...

Beautiful

Thanks, Chris

The typo link, from...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6305251,00.html

"Brown, who lived in Beech Island, S.C., near the Georgia line, won a Grammy font in 1992,"

?

Isn't there a James Brown font? :-)

Thanks for the story, Chris. Every hero is like duct tape: they have a dark side and a light side, and they hold our universe together.

So Patty, did you head up to the Apollo?

Nah, I didn't go to the Apollo. I hate crowds. I did go to Central Park for the John Lennon memorial back in 1980 and remember that after the moment of silence they played Imagine and a light snow started to fall.

Dennis: I hope you are alive when George W Bush dies. In fact I hope he gets struck by lightning one day after he leaves office, just so Cheney can't ascend to the throne.

Chris - that is a great story. I have a friend with a mildly autistic son who responded as a little boy to Neil Young. Turns out Neil Young has an autistic son too... but we didn't know that at the time.

And Jackie - yeah Beame was a weenie. But frankly I wish we could go back to the dark days of NY in the 70s when artists could afford to live in Manhattan and life was interesting. I can't stand the overpriced overhyped Disneyland that this city has become and the current mayor (who IS a republican) just wants to build more and more big buildings. Is that progress? I'm not sure.

Wow Chris, you blow me away man - such a love!!

To all the sunday christians out there and in here... James Brown personally carried millions of Americans to a fresh clean bold place - a place of 'self' worth with his verse, "Say It Loud - I'm Black and I'm Proud", and in '68 racist America this was huge - and always will be.

Hey Mr. Sunday Christian, (Chris G., Heron 2001 et al.), how much have you contributed to raising up your oppressed? Tell me what you've done! I'm right here - waiting...

Raw talent is never pretty, never will be. Furthermore Mr. Sunday Christian, it doesn't need your permission/approval to raise up the human spirit!

Stick to judging yourself Mr. Sunday Christian and leave it at that, you're not qualified to go any further.

_________
Hiro

Hiroshige,

I lived through and protested with the best of them to help shape this country. So please, get off your soapbox.

I spent most of my adulthood helping people on a one-to-one. In the art world in NYC, I watched many talented designers lose their jobs because of Mac computers. I was the only typeshop that would take them in -- give them a 6 mos course (and buy them lunches almost everyday, etc.) and teach them the Mac. It became a joke around publishing, come to me and six months later -- you became an art director. I also watched many of these people spit on the rest of the world when they got there - so I didn't exactly feel like my job was complete.

Oh, yes, I owned a typeshop in New York and was the second one in NYC to put in MACs and proudly the first one that was actually producing work on it... (And again, helping another typeshop's workers try to keep their jobs - when MKP sold out to Harris -- MKP's workers were given 6 months to learn the Mac -- several of their day workers would come over to my shop to try and learn - but their hearts weren't in it. I remember one guy saw my old typositor and just wanted to come and set typositor words for me...)

I have taken in strays (and I'm not talking animals) and made them feel human again and got them on their way into the world. And yes, some of them I am so very proud of. I'd love to give you one of the people I helped. He was a New Yorker who came back to NY as a homeless person. I took him in and well, made him feel like a human being. (BTW - a wonderful artist who have had many shows on the West coast.) He was able to get his act back together and well, I am really proud of him. He does his artwork at night, took a regular day job -- owns his own home.

I did not grow up to be a "tushy-washer" but it is what I seem to have become. I now take care of a 90 year old woman and do my best to make her want to get out of bed and live everyday. Last week was extremely rough for me - it was the 26th anniversary of my own mother's death -- and here was Helen (the 90-year old) about to die that day. I couldn't let her. If you are interested she is doing much better this week -- but seems to have lost her short-term memory -- and wants to keep putting the stove on.

I have no trumpets to blow and couldn't care less about most people's attitudes. (That tend to happen when you get older and no longer seek parental approval.) I just try to make the world a little bit better and believe in treating humans nicely. I've never faltered from my original learnings - and I've passed them on to others.

I've been lucky in my life. There has always been a connection to people in the world for me. I've always had my own "network" even before the age of computers. That network extended to many cities throughout the world. Amazing, you have reminded me that when I had my own apartment in NY and was by myself -- I was never alone.

********

Patty,

Life in Manhattan was always wonderful. I was born there, grew up there -- studied there. The 70s were great. Hiroshiga writes about the radical blacks of the '60s. I have to laugh - hey, I was in NY. We even protested against the New York Times in 1969 begging them to stop typesetting "Negros" and use the word Black. It was quite an achievement when they finally did. And NYC those years -- let's face it -- the hippy way of life was winning out and everyone was spreading the joys of love.

I haven't lived in NY since February 14, 1999. I was happy I wasn't there for 9-11. I have watched many good friends of mine pass away -- and the city isn't the same for me. I returned two October's ago for my dearest friend's Irish Wake -- I was amazed at what I saw. Manhattan is a youngster's paradise. No senior citizens out there... I don't know how everyone affords to live there -the apartments are way over priced. (My friend's apartment cost him $37,000 in 1986 and today is worth $550,000.) I gave up a large (850 sq ft) one bedroom apartment that cost me - now don't cry -- $1000 per month in 1999. Located in what use to be the heart of the typesetting industry - 46th & 2nd.

Well, thank you for letting me write this out during my peace time - before Helen arises...

Jackie

P.S. So Hiroshige -- in the strands of life - who are you?

Back off topic… we also lost Wilson Picket this year, another great.

And we've lost so many more - and good ones too!

I don't know if you are aware of

http://www.deadoraliveinfo.com

but it is one of my favorite sites and I thought I'd share it with you, if you were not already familiar with it.

And Lou Rawls.

(And for us feminists, Betty Friedan.)

Hiroshige,

Hey Mr. Sunday Christian, (Chris G., Heron 2001 et al.), how much have you contributed to raising up your oppressed? Tell me what you’ve done! I’m right here - waiting…
Raw talent is never pretty, never will be. Furthermore Mr. Sunday Christian, it doesn’t need your permission/approval to raise up the human spirit!

You've completely failed to recognise that I cast no doubt on the positive effects of the man's work, nor did I imply that raising the human spirit is dependent on my permission...

You are under the misaprehension that beating his wife can be safely overlooked because he did good things as well as bad, which is ridiculous. Whether the good deeds outweigh the bad does not change the fact that the bad deeds remain just that - bad.

To cast doubt on the validity of mine or others opinions based on how we've 'raised up our oppressed' is fallacious. By your reasoning a customer in a restaurant would be wrong in complaining about a bad meal simply because he is not a chef.

Hold the late Mr Brown in as much esteem as you wish, but don't get on your high horse when people present you with facts you don't want to acknowledge.

Alessandro Segalini, yesterday, you said Time is god.
Today, you say Music is god.
No wonder, some say Between Thighs!

> Is this like Iran not believing the holocaust took place?
Heron2001, From where you got this bit of Information?
Are you prepared/allowed to discuss/investigate the Facts and Figures of Holocaust?
You will find how faithful I am to Chris G's words:
"but don’t get on your high horse when people present you with facts you don’t want to acknowledge."
And I also hope you will be at your words:
> I’ve never faltered from my original learnings - and I’ve passed them on to others.

> In fact I hope he gets struck by lightning one day after he leaves office,
> just so Cheney can’t ascend to the throne.

That's against God's never-changing Wont:
Arrogants taste Gradual Degradation in the present world
and (if you believe) a mighty chastisement in the world to come.
Saddam's end is just up-to-date lesson.

Dear AzizMostafa,

So many forget that 17 million persons perished in concentration camps. I was delighed recently when 60 Minutes did a segment on a WWII archive in Germany that is finally being allowed to be viewed by the general public. It has the complete records of all the concentration camps and all the lists the German's had insisted upon from the Ghettos. That is proof enough that the Holocaust happened.

Meanwhile, you ask me about Iran. I received an email blast that originated from the Simon Weisenthal Center. I have found their information accurate.

You may view this article at
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=2454...
and decide for yourself.

I studied European History from 1805-1945 for my BA in History. I tend to find these type of facts, and honestly, I am happy I do. I was very sad when in past years I visited Europe and found that the youth were not taught full history. In Austria, many facts have been covered up. One of my internet buddies was looking out at what he called the "Blue Danube" -- I wrote back and told him he meant the "Red Danube" - after explaining about the people who were forced into the Danube to drown and be shot out - his first reaction was he was tired of the propaganda -- I sent him to a site that had photos of a monument dedicated to all those who lost their lives by being killed in the Danube...

Well, like I keep trying to say. I cannot change the world - but I do try to help one human at a time... Those who have helped me in my life always told me I was to pass it on. I've tried to live up to their expectations.

P.S. Where have you been - just to a google or yahoo search for Iran denies the Holocaust - and have fun reading.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-msgr&p=iran%20denies%20h...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=iran+denies+the+holocaust

*****************

To all typophiles - I am sorry we have strayed so off topic -- but I wish each of you a Happy and Prosperous New Year.

>Are you prepared/allowed to discuss/investigate the Facts and Figures of Holocaust?

I am allowed, I am prepared, and I know.

The holocaust is one of the best documented periods in history, and many survivors are still alive now to testify, and have done so and are still telling their stories. And there are 50,000 on film, thanks to Spielberg's project.

If you are interested you can see a few brief clips of personal testimony here.

You have to understand that this is not past history because many people alive today remember it all too well.

If you are interested I can add a lot more. But you should understand that holocaust denial is simply a cynical and dishonest attempt to further a murderous political agenda. It has nothing at all to do with the search for truth, or acceptance of obvious historical truths.

If someone started a campaign to say that Saddam Hussein never existed, it would have as much credibility to you as holocaust denial does to me. You just know better, and so do I.

Hear hear William.

Hey happy new year everybody and what say we steer clear of anything controversial for the rest of the year?

Dear Friends, William Berkson and Heron2001

Thanks for the Info+Links!

1. Do you agree that If someone wants to prove something against someone else, he/she has to refer to a link controlled by the accused for complete+accurate information?! Otherwise means otherwise?!
For example, to get the full story, I have to dig out of this site:
http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/

So, any pointer to any Official Iranian (not anti-Iranian) Site that denies the Holocaustchronicle?

2. Since The holocaust is one of the best documented periods in history, I beg you to make sure of the accuracy of Facts+Figures you supply before replying. For example, if you say 50,000 were killed somewhere, then you can multiply that number or divide it by 2, not more?

All the Best with Flowers

Aziz, you should understand that Holocaust denial has nothing to do with truth or plausiblity. It is just those who are willing to engage in the 'big lie' to further their political goals.

Ahmadinejad has figured out that it is more plausible to say that 'there are two sides' to the argument over whether the holocaust happened, than to say it is a 'myth', as he originally did. But there are not two sides, any more than there are 'two sides' to an argument over whether Saddam Hussein ever existed. This 'two sides' stuff is just a more plausible version of a 'big lie' that is designed to serve a political agenda, an agenda of de-legitimizing and destroying Israel.

>Do you agree that If someone wants to prove something against someone else, he/she has to refer to a link controlled by the accused for complete+accurate information?!

I don't understand what you mean by 'accused'. Who is being accused, and by whom? And the link I gave is of a sample of personal testimony of people about their own lives. It is not a second-hand historical account.

Those who were involved in the events on both sides, both Germans and Jews, agree on the history. The fact of the holocaust and the scale of it is not a matter of serious controversy in Europe, which is where it happened.

>I beg you to make sure of the accuracy of Facts+Figures you supply before replying.

What was inaccurate in what I said?

>For example, if you say 50,000 were killed somewhere, then you can multiply that number or divide it by 2, not more?

What are you talking about? I never said anything about numbers killed. I said that 50,000 survivors have told their stories on film. I didn't multiply anything by 2.

The bottom line is that almost everyone who actually has studied the history and talked to the people involved agrees on the reality of the holocaust, and the general scale of it.

The site you link to, so far as I can see skimming it quickly, gives a normal history of the holocaust. There are thousands of other similar histories many much more extensive.

I too saw the 60 minutes piece Jackie referred to; as that archive gradually gets explored and revealed a lot more stories will come to light.

Aziz: you better be careful - it's not clear from your posts what YOU actually believe. Holocaust denial is in fact a crime in many European countries. They take their history seriously. In fact Germany teaches students a very detailed history of their country's actions during WW 2. They have made a much more thorough and responsible examination of their culpability as a nation than most other countries, in the interest of history not repeating itself. I'd like to see the US do the same regarding our own treatment of native americans and african americans. Unfortunately anti-semitism is still rampant both in Europe and in the middle east, and not helped by the actions of the Israeli government. It's possible to be Jewish and not a zionist per se.

The Museum of Tolerance at the Simon Wiesenthal center in LA is a fascinating lesson on genocide and intolerance, placing the holocaust smack in the context of both past and present situations globally - I recommend anyone in LA go see it.

Again, happy new year, peace on earth.

>as that archive gradually gets explored

Microfilm copies of many of the camp records are at the Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington DC.

For a friend who just completed a book on one of the camps, I spent four or five hours looking through these lists of thousands and thousands of individuals on those lists--many or most not Jewish on the particular lists I was looking at, but many thousands identified as Jewish. When I saw their names--almost all of them murdered--typed up neatly and noted as to their country of origin, age IIRC, and supposed 'crime' in neat German hand writing, it was pretty chilling and depressing.

The Holocaust Museum is a chilling place. The train car made my hair stand on end. It didn't help that I was racing through it just before closing and kept hearing doors clang shut behind me.

1. Does "if you say" mean "you said"?!

> The fact of the holocaust and the scale of it is not a matter of serious controversy in Europe, which is where it happened.

Then, in 1948, the Jewish National Council proclaimed the state of Israel elsewhere. Why not in Europe?

This is what Ahmadinejad said. What was inaccurate in what he said?

Dear Aziz,

You seem to have a grasp of the English language, but because of your first question, I guess we can assume that it is not your native tongue. If "you say" is meaning - if one poses a question -- it doesn't mean that any one person said an exact sentence.

I would like to take this time to remind you, as I wrote earlier -- the concentration camps took the lives of 17 million. We hear all the time of the 6 million Jews whose lives were taken. But there were 11 millions others - they were intellects, Gypsies, Cheks, Rumanians, scientists, musicians, artists, thespians, Hungarians, Dutch, Germans, and of course, anyone who was caught being against the Nazi government.

We mourn the loss of all, not just in the holocaust - but in all wars. It is a waste of life. Sometimes it is necessary, and we all pray that good will overcome evil.

This is not a topic for a type board. And none of us want to be negative or antagonistic.

We cannot understand if you are just trying to achieve an open debate, or you are taking a stand -- of which, we are not sure on what side.

Iran's president clearly stated the denial of the holocaust. BWW, so did Austria and Russia right after the war. Austria taught a new history stating mostly Jewish propaganda. Russia just didn't teach anything about the war to its young. It wasn't until the Berlin wall fell, that Germany finally admit "guilt" and started with apologies and reparations. Large German manufacturers have apologized for using slave labor - even if it was with a grain of salt saying the Nazi regime made them do it.

But I don't want to really get off topic again. All I'm saying at his point - is Rest In Peace and we cannot forget. For if we do - history is bound to repeat itself. Look at Bosnia a few years ago -- fortunately the world stepped in to stop the genocide.

P.S. If I were a moderator of this forum -- I would either close this thread, or take it up with the powers that be to delete it. It really has nothing to do with type. There are sites for Brown and Holocausts.

Aziz, the question of the legitimacy of the state of Israel is a different one from the question of the reality of the holocaust.

I personally think the state of Israel is a legitimate state, but I recognize that there is a legitimate debate about it. If you want to talk about the legitimacy of the state of Israel, fine, though I doubt this is the best forum. In my opinion, and in the opinion of almost all who know something of recent European history, there is no legitimate debate about whether the holocaust happened.

>Then, in 1948, the Jewish National Council proclaimed the state of Israel elsewhere. Why not in Europe?

I don't know what this statement is referring to, so I don't know how to respond. The facts are that on May 14, 1948 the National Council issued Israel's Declaration of Independence. This was declared in Tel Aviv, and reported around the world in the news. I'm sure it was reported in Europe as well as elsewhere.

This thread is an amazing testament to the civility of Typophile's membership. There are few corners of the internet where a thread can get derailed into discussions of holocaust denial and the legitimacy of Israel without devolving into a stew of vulgarities that even a sailor's son wouldn't deign to utter.

>Then, in 1948, the Jewish National Council proclaimed the state of Israel elsewhere. Why not in Europe?
>

I did mean to address this statement. It shows that one has not been following or learning the history of the world. The brief statement for this was Europe didn't want the displaced Jewish population. Many Jews did not want to go back to their "homelands" were they suffered at the hands of their "neighbors." The UK had a problem. They had taken position of Palestine at the end of the Great War - handed over to them by the defunct League of Nations. The Europeans Jews wanted a homeland, and in the writings of all 12 tribes - a mesiah would appear and lead them back to Jerusalem. The UK had a constant battle - not only didn't the Palestines want them on the land - but the displaced Jews who were resettling there -- were also fighting the Brits. The new United Nations turned the land over to the displaced Jews - the first and only Jewish state on this planet. The Brits left - and the Jews did everything they could to make their new homeland tolerable.

I've left out much - I'm trying to keep it simple and easy to understand. This became their homeland with the blessings of a world council -- and the irrigated and worked the land. They took a desert and made it an oasis. The world was to watch over, happy with the knowledge all Jews would be "there" -- and no where else.

Jewish people are not loved by everyone. Some are scared of them and would believe to this day that they have horns on their heads. There is the myth they hold all the world power, and oh, let's just not go there.

Simple - They didn't want to be in Europe - Europe didn't want them. UK had a large problem with Palestine - and the UN gave the problem to the Jews. The End.

And while we are on this discussion - I always wondered, if Israel lost the 6-Day War - would the world have asked the new Palestine to return the land to them?

So far, there is no misunderstanding between us in that:
1. The Holocaust crimes were committed by European against European Jews and Christians as well. May All the Murdered rest in peace.
2. There was no Israel before 1948.
3. The proclamation of Israel had nothing to do with Holocaust.
______________________________
Please, Correct me if I am wrong.

May the new year bring peace and understanding among all peoples of the World. May we forgive eachother our past prejudices and wrong doing and begin life again with no ill will.

ChrisL

Chris the people who hate will always hate they don't care anything about any other people. What if they were endangered specicies of animimals would they care for them?

> The Europeans Jews wanted a homeland, and in the writings of all 12 tribes - a mesiah would appear and lead them back to Jerusalem.

1. The same Mesiah recognized by Christians. Or a different One?
2. Are they preparing for his noble (re)appearance in Jerusalem?

> Jewish people are not loved by everyone. Some are scared of them and would believe to this day that they have horns on their heads.

But thousands of Jews live peacefuly in Iran, mainly in Tehran+Isfahan.
They do have their own shops, schools, temples and restaurants.
And they are represented in the Iranian Consultative+Experts Assemblies. And, they do play a constructive role in building+ defending their homeland.

>1. The Holocaust crimes were committed by European against European Jews and Christians as well. May All the Murdered rest in peace.
>2. There was no Israel before 1948.
>3. The proclamation of Israel had nothing to do with Holocaust.

1. This is correct. But it gives a fuller picture if you add that it was Nazis leading the murdering, and that they targeted specific groups: Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and anyone who criticized their regime, amongst others.

2. Not quite right. There was a Jewish state in ancient times, which was at its largest under King Solomon, around the year 1000 BCE. It was ended in 576 BCE by Bablyonian conquest, and exile. Jews returned to the land of Israel 70 years later, and eventually there was a second Jewish state from 164 BCE until about the first century C.E. After that, for 1900 years Jews in dispersion preserved their unique culture and Hebrew language, and every day prayed for return to the land of Israel. There was also, with with some exceptions, a continuous small Jewish presence in the land of Israel and in Jerusalem. Present day Israel, from 1948, is the third Jewish commonwealth.

3. No, the proclamation of Israel was very much influenced by the holocaust. What I said is that the question of whether the holocaust happened, and the question of the legitimacy of the founding of the State of Israel are two different questions.

There is actually no honest question as to whether the holocaust happened, as it was a huge event in the 20th century, very well documented and still remembered today by people who experienced it. By questioning it Ahmadinejad simply made himself look foolish or crazy or wicked in the eyes of all Europeans and Americans. Other Iranian leaders have acknowledged its reality, as they haven't wanted to look so foolish.

The holocaust created a huge problem of Jewish refugees. This fueled further Jewish immigration to the land of Israel, and made the world, including the UN and the USA, sympathetic to the cause of a Jewish homeland and place of refuge in the site of the ancient Jewish states. And the holocaust is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence of Israel.

The question of whether the founding of the Jewish state was legitimate is a reasonable question. As I said, I think the answer is 'yes', but I recognize that there are arguments on both sides.

On your more recent questions I will post later.

>in the writings of all 12 tribes - a mesiah would appear and lead them back to Jerusalem.

This is not historically accurate. The twelve tribes ceased after the fall of the Northern kingdom, in 722 BCE. However, the idea of a messiah only appears in Judaism after 164 BCE, during the second Jewish state. It is mainly post-biblical and appears in the Bible only in the latest passages, such as in the Book of Daniel, and even there it is not clear.

Also the establishment of the Jewish state was done primarily not by religious Jews, but by secular socialists who wanted a homeland for the Jews as an ethnic group, and not to fulfill religious hopes.

>1. The same Mesiah recognized by Christians. Or a different One?
>2. Are they preparing for his noble (re)appearance in Jerusalem?

1. The Jewish concept of the messiah is not entirely clear, but it is clear at least that the messiah will not be a God, but a person who will re-establish the Jewish state and usher in a reign of peace in the world. This is decisively different from the Christian concept.

2. Traditionally, the only preparation for the coming of the messiah is the doing of good deeds. Prayers for the coming of the messiah, soon, is part of the traditional Jewish daily prayers (which were formulated in the the second century CE).

> The holocaust created a huge problem of Jewish refugees. This fueled further Jewish immigration to the land of Israel, and made the world, including the UN and the USA, sympathetic to the cause of a Jewish homeland and place of refuge in the site of the ancient Jewish states.

1. The Jews were travellers from the Nile to the Euphrates rivers.
Why Jerusalem was chosen for their settlements? Why not Jordan for example? UN+USA were supposed to respect All religions, not only Jews?! But by doing that, UN+USA extinguished fire in Europe to fuel bigger fire in the middle east?!

2. How did the Jews re-settlement take place in the land of Israel?
Was that land inhabited? Was it a barren desert?
Or was mistakenly known by the land of Fig and Olive?
Were they welcomed by the inhabitants? Or they were sent with weapons?

3. To which ethnic group did the European Jews belong?
Did their grandfathers migrate from the land of Israel to Europe?
When and why?

> Also the establishment of the Jewish state was done primarily not by religious Jews, but by secular socialists who wanted a homeland for
the Jews as an ethnic group, and not to fulfill religious hopes.

Can I take it that the Jewish National Council that proclaimed the state of Israel were Secular Socialists?!

Aziz,

Honestly most of what you ask is over my head. I can only add that the land was inhabited by others, and that others still live within the borders of Israel. Many Arabs are proud to have been born and raised in TelAviv and Jerusalem. (I met quite a few in Manhattan over the years...)

But your questions bring up another question I've always had - and maybe someone can answer it for both of us -- There is a Jewish custom of raising a glass and saying, "Next year in Jerusalem." I've always wondered about it's historical meaning....

Anyone?

> I’ve always wondered about it’s historical meaning….

Next year in Jerusalem

I wonder what James Brown would think of the way this thread has been hijacked!

If any of you have ever been to Jerusalem you'd know that in a matter of a few square blocks lie the site of the ancient Jewish temple (the walls are still there, the Jews still pray at them), the Dome of the Rock from which Mohammed ascended (you can touch this spot with your hand), the Via Dolorosa (stages of the cross) and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which was built on the site of Jesus's crucifixion. It is impossible to grasp the proximity of these holy sites without actually being there. The Dome of the Rock - which is heartbreakingly beautiful - is actually built on the former site of the Jewish temple. Yes, the Jews were there first. This spot will always be a site of contention. Nothing short of tearing it all down and perhaps turning it into some sort of multi-denominational site of worship with no national or religious jurisdiction will solve this conflict. And yet this solution would anger everyone. It's like Solomon tearing the child in half.

It is frustrating beyond belief that nobody seems to be able to rise above self interest, take the high road and come up with a peaceful solution, which is (I believe) what the vast majority of Jews and Palestinians want. Everybody is acting like the child who only wants the toy because his brother wants it too.

I second the suggestion that the moderators close this thread. We have indeed stayed civilized so far - amazing considering how flame-y some other threads have gotten.

>stayed civilized so far - amazing considering how flame-y some other threads have gotten.

I suspect this is because Aziz is actually open minded, and I would like to think I am too.

The problem with addressing all your questions, Aziz, is that they would take a book--actually many books--to answer them in depth. Because so much history is involved, rather than trying to cite it all, let me just give you my own general view, and if you like I can cite references later.

>1. The Jews were travellers from the Nile to the Euphrates rivers.
Why Jerusalem was chosen for their settlements? Why not Jordan for example?

If you start with Abraham, in maybe 1700 BCE,his family came from Ur, which is maybe not so far from your house. The story goes from the Euphrates to the Nile, and then back to the land of present day Israel & Palestine, which is where it was for the longest period.

With Abraham you are talking about a family or small clan. The history of the Jews as a whole people with their own religion really starts in a way that is trackable after the Exodus from Egypt in about 1300 BCE. There they come into the hill country west of the Jordan river, largely in the current West Bank territories.

King David united the 12 tribes under him as King, and made his capital Jerusalem (which was central within the various tribal areas) in around 1000 BCE. Though a city did exist before that, for the next thousand years (with the exception of 70 years exile in Bablyonia) it was a Jewish city. David's son Solomon built the ancient Jewish Temple there, and that was the center of Jewish worship for the next thousand years also, until the Roman destruction in 70 CE. After 70, there was a Jewish presence in Jerusalem basically whenever it wasn't prevented under pain of death.

In the Jewish psalms, there are praises of Jerusalem while the Jews were in exile in Babylonia. (These pre-date Islam by 1000 years). And after the Roman destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, the daily prayers contained longing to return to Jerusalem ever since. And of course Jews traditional pray in the direction of Jerusalem, and within Israel toward the Temple mount--all of which predates Islam by hundreds of years.

I should add that the Hebrew language is in the view of most derived from the language of the Caananites, and so the language of the Jews is pretty much native to Jerusalem. Arabic, which is the language of conquerers from Arabia, is also a Semitic language, but not so local in origin.

As far as genetic background, the Jews were a "mixed multitude" even when they came out of Egypt, and today Jews and Israelis come from practically every racial type. Still, a majority (including me) look to me like cousins to Lebanese and Syrians.

The basic point I am making is that the Jews have a very long and strong claim to being people from the land which is currently Israel, and specifically Jerusalem.

I know that one can argue about this, but so too one can argue about the claim of Islam on Jerusalem as a holy site, as you can read in the wikipedia article on this issue.

Now I don't think that either the historic or religious Jewish or Islamic claims to Jerusalem are the most important things in the current situation. But I just mention some of the Jewish ties--and a lot more can be said--as by your question you don't seem to be aware of them.

To me more important than the historical, religious and emotional ties of either Jews or Muslims to Jerusalem is a settlement of the current state of war that will lead to peace and a good future for both Israeli and Palestinian communities.

I'll turn to other of your questions in a later posting.

> ... the Dome of the Rock from which Mohammed ascended...

This is a common mistake even among Muslims?! The Dome of the Rock was built after the death of Mohammed by a so-called Muslim Ruler
(2nd after Mohammed) just to lessen the importance of Masjid Al-Aqsa (Remote Mosque) to which Mohammed was bodily carried from Kaba (in mecca) and from there through the 7 heavens to God's presence. Remote Mosque It is still standing nearby but sadly not given the attention as the Dome of the Rock. Have you ever visited it Pattyfab?

> David’s son Solomon built the ancient Jewish Temple there, and that was the center of Jewish worship for the next thousand years also

That's right:
To this very place, Mohammed was bodily carried from Kaba (in Mecca),
From this very place (Remote Mosque) through the 7 heavens to God’s presence.
Towards this very place , Moslem were turning face in prayers (Qibla).
Then after 16 months in Madina, Mohammed was instructed to change Qibla from Jerusalem to Kaaba.

Very Strange! For the last 2 days, I have been able to post but not to edit nor Insert Images. Testing, I am posting these 2 pictures.
Thanking you and apologizing for any grammatical and spelling errors.

>UN+USA were supposed to respect All religions, not only Jews?! But by doing that, UN+USA distinguished fire in Europe to fuel bigger fire in the middle east?!

>2. How did the Jews re-settlement take place in the land of Israel?
Was that land inhabited? Was it a barren desert?
Or was mistakenly known by the land of Fig and Olive?
Were they welcomed by the inhabitants? Or they were sent with weapons?

>3. To which ethnic group did the European Jews belong?
Did their grandfathers migrate from the land of Israel to Europe?
When and why?

Specific, detailed answers to these questions would take books to answer. Let me just recommend to you, if you are interested in seeing another side to the story from what you usually hear, this Jewish web site and the extensive History of Israel by Howard Sachar.

Overall, my view is the following. Whatever the wisdom of the UN partition in 1948, had the Arab countries accepted it (as the Jews did) they would have soon had an Arab majority in Israel. Instead they publicly declared their intent to massacre all the Jews. In the resulting war 70% of the Arab population fled. The Arab countries refused to negotiate over refugees (until 1992 I believe), and an movement of roughly equal numbers of Jewish refugees from the hostile Arab countries into Israel took place. At the same time, Arab countries tried repeatedly to crush Israel, and conducted terror raids, murdering innocent men, women and children over a period of more than fifty years, as well as conducting a series of unsuccessful wars against Israel.

So whatever the wisdom of the partition, the murderous goals and actions of the Arab countries, the exchange of refugees, and the successful defence of the Jewish state at great cost to Jewish lives in my view legitimates the Jewish state.

So to me the question of returning Israel to Muslim rule is now similar to the question of whether southern Spain should be returned to Muslim rule. In my view, only if you accept the premises of religious fanatics--who, in every religion are the enemies of peace and prosperity--is Israel illegitimate.

>This is a common mistake even among Muslims?! The Dome of the Rock was built after the death of Mohammed by a so-called Muslim Ruler
(2nd after Mohammed) just to lessen the importance of Masjid Al-Aqsa (Remote Mosque) to which Mohammed was bodily carried from Kaba (in mecca) and from there through the 7 heavens to God’s presence. Remote Mosque It is still standing nearby but sadly not given the attention as the Dome of the Rock. Have you ever visited it Pattyfab?

I'm not sure, Aziz - when I toured the Dome of the Rock I was told (by a muslim guide) that it was from that point that Mohammed ascended. Further evidence here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhrah

You will also see from this article that the rock itself also holds great significance in Jewish tradition. And interesting to read this note at the top of the wikipedia article on Al Aqsa
"The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed." I fear there is no neutrality where this conflict is concerned.

And I honestly can't remember if I went inside Al Aqsa. I was in Israel over 20 years ago. I know that non-muslims can't enter now, but have no idea if that was the case when I went. I was there shortly after the Camp David accord which was a very joyful time in Israel.

The wikipedia article on Al-Aqsa says that the whole area around the Mosque is referred to as "Al-Aqsa", as well as the Mosque itself, so that would presumably include the Dome of the Rock.

The article is interesting in that it contains a lot of contradictory information, obviously from different hands, and was closed because of controversy. The article includes the controversy over whether 'Al-Aqsa' in the Quran actually refers to a location in Jerusalem.

>the whole area around the Mosque

a.k.a. the temple mount

Thanks William Berkson+pattyfab for your understanding and open-mindedness.

> So to me the question of returning Israel to Muslim rule is now similar to the question of whether southern Spain should be returned to Muslim rule

To me, both were unjustified Occupations. Neither Israel is a Jewsish state, nor Spain was ruled by Muslims.

> So whatever the wisdom of the partition, the murderous goals and actions of the Arab countries, the exchange of refugees, and the successful defence of the Jewish state at great cost to Jewish lives in my view legitimates the Jewish state.

So whatever the wisdom of the UN(US+UK) partition, the murderous goals and actions of Israel, the exchange of missiles, and the successful defence of Lebanon at great cost to Muslim+Christian lives in my view legitimates the Resistance of Hizbullah.

> In my view, only if you accept the premises of religious fanatics—who, in every religion are the enemies of peace and prosperity—is Israel illegitimate.

In my view, only if you accept the premises of Secular fanatics—who, in every region are the enemies of peace+justice(religion)—Israel is legitimate.

With due respect to All the True Jews wherever they are.

> If any of you have ever been to Jerusalem you’d know that in a matter of a few square blocks lie the site of the ancient Jewish temple (the walls are still there, the Jews still pray at them), ... and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre which was built on the site of Jesus’s crucifixion.

Pattyfab, I asked a Jew from Holland I met in KL/Malaysia in 1989 and
I need to confirm the answer to the same question here again. My question was:
It is not hard to conclude that Jesus’s crucifixion happened few square blocks from the Jewish temple. Needless to say that the Jews rejected Jesus Prophethood, but did they witness his crucifixion?
> Temple was closed that day; Otherwise they would surely stop Jesus crucifixion, He replied.
Of course from the angle of enjoying the good and forbidding evil, I commented and he nodded his head.
________________________
True? If not, could you clarify a bit please?

>nor Spain was ruled by Muslims.

Aziz, you are sending me back to the history books--which are very interesting to me.

Parts of present day Spain were ruled by Muslims from 711 to 1492, nearly 800 years. When Spain was first conquered by Islamic armies, it had been Christian for some time.

When present day Israel was conquered by Muslim armies from Arabia, it had also been Christian for hundreds of years. It had been briefly conquered by the Persians, and then the Arab conquest came in 640, establishing Islam. The Arabs were not invited, but conquered by the sword and give people the choice of conversion, death or--in the special case of Christians and Jews--dhimmi (second class) status. The Muslim rulers were in turn re-conquered 450 years later by Christian Crusaders, who ruled for two hundred years, from 1099 to 1291--with the exception of a period when Saladin briefly returned the land to Muslim control (and invited Jews back to Jerusalem).

After that Muslims from Egypt (Mamluks) regained control, until they were conquered by the Turks, also Muslim, in 1517. The Turks were conquered by European allies in WWI, and the land of Israel was taken over by the British, who were Christian. Like Saladin, they invited the Jews back. (Jews did not re-settle by an aggressive war.)

My point in recounting this history is that to figure out the rights and wrongs of every conquest and ruler you would take a lifetime of studying history.

And the bottom line is that if you are a Muslim fanatic, like Osama bin Ladin, you will want to reconquer Spain by force of arms as soon as possible. If you are a Christian fanatic, like the Crusaders, you will want right away to return all once-Christian lands to Christian rule. If you are a Jewish fanatic, you will want to expand the Jewish state to the size of the state of King Solomon.

By the way I shouldn't have said that religious fanaticism is the enemy of peace and prosperity, I should have said that fanaticism, period, is the enemy of peace and prosperity. Communist fanaticism in the 20th century was responsible for great slaughter of people, and it was anti-religious.

So if you want to kill people over their beliefs I think this is the enemy of peace and prosperity. If you want to be tolerant and let people raise their families in peace, worship as they choose, grow food, heal the sick, write poetry and music--and do type and calligraphy!--then I think you are on the right path.

>> Temple was closed that day; Otherwise they would surely stop Jesus crucifixion,

The Dutch Jew you spoke didn't know the history so well. Jesus was crucified by the Romans, who were in power in Judea, as they saw Jesus as a threat to their power. The Jews could not stop the Romans from doing what they wanted. Jews tried to resume political power by armed rebellions against Rome in 70 CE and in 135 CE and were crushed both times.

[Some passages in the Christian Bible portray the Jews as to some degree complicit in the Roman execution of Jesus. This is a matter of great controversy and bitterness. The late Pope John Paul II clearly rejected the interpretation of Jewish responsibilty for Jesus' death.]

The traditional Jewish view is that prophesy ended after the return from exile in Babylonia (576 BCE). After that religious leaders were called scribes or teachers (rabbis). There was never a question about Jesus perhaps being a prophet, either for Jews or Christians. For Christians Jesus is the son of God. Jews and later Muslims rejected this fundamental point of Christianity. Muslims regard Jesus as a Prophet, but this is neither a Jewish nor a Christian view.

Still investigating the Well-documented Holocaust,
1. Aside from the shot-to-death, how many Jews were gassed?
2. What kind of Gas was used? Still unknown?
3. Were there gas-generating laboratories near the camps?
4. How was the gas pumped into the camps? Through Pipes.
5. How did the gassing take place?
6. How many mass graves discovered so far?
7. How well Camps were sealed to prevent gas leak out?
Accurate answers please.

The task of going back through history to find the numerous conquering, enslavements, murders, and reconquerings is far easier and less fruitful than the task of forgiving each-other our many heinous acts (their are many on all sides among all peoples in history). Pointing the finger of blame has been proven futile for centuries. The real job is what do we do now to stop all the senseless hatred and killing. Every retaliation begets another retaliation. This will never stop. Too often peoples perform murderous acts in the name of whatever god or religion they profess. This somehow helps them shed blame for their horrible deeds and absolve them of guilt.
We are all guilty, all to blame, not so much for the acts of our ancestors but for the acts yet to be committed which we do nothing to prevent. Isn't it time to stop all this? Have we learned nothing from the World's bloodstained history? Instead of pointing the finger of guilt, let us lift a finger to help stop all of this insanity.

Happy New Year.

ChrisL

I REALLY don't think this forum is the appropriate place for this discussion. Aziz, if these questions really interest you I'm sure you can find the answers you're looking for either on line or in a library. William and others have already provided you with some links.

The gas was Zyklon B.
All Jews are true Jews (except IMO the so-called Jews for Jesus).

I'm done with this thread.

Peace on earth.

2. What kind of Gas was used? Still unknown?

http://www.answers.com/topic/zyklon-b

http://www.degussa-history.com/geschichte/en/predecessors/degussa_in_the...

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/cyanide/cyanide.001

This is a pretty repellent investigation Aziz, but nothing you couldn't discover for yourself without taking this thread so far off-topic.
Tim

>Accurate answers please.

There is a limit to the precision of the answers anyone has, but there is no doubt that massive numbers were murdered by gas. Massive numbers were also shot.

If you are interested in the details--and there is a great deal of detailed documentation--you can read any of the huge library of books on the subject.

You can also find a lot on the internet, but of course there is also a lot of hate-filled rubbish on the internet also.

Some good internet sites are:
http://www.ushmm.org/holocaust/ and
http://www.holocaust-history.org/

>1. Aside from the shot-to-death, how many Jews were gassed?

The number of those killed by being shot, or by other means than gas chambers in concentration camps, should not be minimized. The German army, as it advanced through Eastern Europe into the Soviet Union, was followed by the SS. The Germans organized militias in many of the occupied countries to assit their killing as well. All of this is well documented by the German government (even by the old East German government) and I suspect by the present-day governments of the respective countries involved, too. Certainly in Poland and in Russia, there are records.

Aziz, the line of questioning you put forth feels to me to be undermined by a misunderstanding of European history. For at least a thousand years, Europe was not the tolerant, open environment it is today. Wars and killings were common throughout its history, even its modern history. In seventy years, for instance, between 1870 and 1940, Germany invaded France three times.

Visit virtually any city center in Central Europe. Signs commenorate mass killings and burings throughout the past several centuries — not just of Jews but of too many minority groups. The first victims of the Crusades, just to mention one example, were not Muslims or Arabs or Turks or even Greeks (all of whom would eventually be terribly attacked over the centuries-long campaigns), but Jews living in Christian cities along the Rheinland. As the first crusading armies moved out of France along their way to Jerusalem, they decided to kill all enemies they could find, even the ones on their doorsteps, and their neighbors in their own cities!

The history of Europe is tragic and violent. Fortunately for us in the present and in the future, it was at least well documented. Trying to discredit the whole of history by nitpicking at details is distastefull, and it makes my heart sad to witness it.

Also Aziz, the answers to all of your questions from your last post can be found in the testimonies given at the Nuremburg trials, and other trials conducted by the Allies after the conclusion of the war. The German governments, and the governments of their neighboring countries (West and East) also held trials for decades after the war's end. (In France, Klaus Barbie did not even come to trial until 1984; more info here – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Barbie)

Many of the defendants in these trials did not contest their actions in the war, the government, or the holocaust. Rather, they contested whether wat they had done was actually wrong (and occasionally whether or not the courts were valid). Examine the proceeds of these cases, and you will find your answers.

Klaus Barbie died on the same day as Dr. Seuss. I remember they each had a full page obit in the Times, on facing pages. Good :: Evil.

Now I really am done with this thread!

> My point in recounting this history is that to figure out the rights and wrongs of every conquest and ruler you would take a lifetime of studying history.

But we — Shia Moslems— see All the rulers you mentioned were on the wrong path because we declare the Oneness of God, reject any partners for Him; any personification (of Him) and any son (for Him). Every type of deviation from this, we condemn emphatically to destruction, like attributing partners, idolatry and the worship of man by man.

As such, we believe that God is Unique. He is the Creator of All existence. Due to this, believe only good and righteousness is created in the universe and it is man who at times misuses these means and potential. Therefore, man is the cause of evil and the source of deviation.

We believe that God is without a body or matter; rather He is far elevated above matter and material. According to this, He has no need
for a place or locality. Surely, He is in every place and cognizant of everything. He is closer to us that our own jugular vein. He sees
everything and hears every sound. In addition to that, there is no place for Him nor any habitat. He sees things and hears sounds not with the extremities on the eye nor the ear as we see and hear.

(We believe) that the past and the future, the near and the remote are the same for Him. That everything is present in his knowledge
without exception. The apparent and unknown are before him without exception, therefore. He even knows our thoughts and our intentions.

He encompasses (the Knowledge) of that which troubles our hearts, (that which) passes through our minds and hearts absolutely.

(We believe) that He is Unique in all of these perspectives. He has no Compositional parts, even His attributes, like Capability and Knowledge are the same as His Essence.

There is no beginning for His existence nor any end. He is eternally existing, therefore, His existence is infinite from all perspectives. His attributes never resemble the attributes of creation because man's attributes like ability and knowledge are limited. He is ever far exalted in His unlimited attributes.

In His power, (and in) non-other besides Him, is forgiveness of the sins of His servants. There is no intercession of anyone for anyone, even the Messenger of God except by His permission.

We believe that God never does any injustice to anyone of his servants. (We believe) the injustice of another either stems from ignorance or springs forth from impotence and God Glorified is He, is knowledgeable of all things and capable of all things. We believe in accordance with that that all of mankind is free in their will, not compelled to obedience or disobedience. (we believe) that their destinies are in their hands. They will decide for themselves without compulsion and He does not bear blame for the sin of another nor does anyone bear the sin or the error of another. Nor is man punished for the crimes of another.

>were on the wrong path

Aziz, I'm afraid I haven't communicated my point to you. My point is that what is most important is not what people believe, but what they do.

Many people, and that includes rulers,ordinary people, Christians, Jews, Muslims--Shia and Sunni--and atheists have done beautiful, heroic deeds bettering the lives of those around them. And many people, Christians, Jews and Muslims and atheists have done vicious and wicked things.

No one should be punished or rewarded for his beliefs, but for his deeds. This principle allows us in Europe and the US to have tolerant societies in which Jew and Christian, Sunni and Shia can and do live side by side in peace.

By the way, everything in your statement of faith is consistent with Judaism, except perhaps where you say "Every type of deviation from this, we condemn emphatically to destruction". If you are talking about the hope that people will abandon what you regard as false beliefs, that is fine. If you are talking about killing people who disagree with you, I think it is a principle of intolerance, death and poverty.

Just to be clear, the tolerance I am advocating is a product of no religion, but of people fed up with religious wars, who created the European Enlightenment.

The task of going back through history to find the numerous conquering, enslavements, murders, and reconquerings is far easier and less fruitful than the task of forgiving each-other our many heinous acts (their are many on all sides among all peoples in history). Pointing the finger of blame has been proven futile for centuries. The real job is what do we do now to stop all the senseless hatred and killing. Every retaliation begets another retaliation. This will never stop. Too often peoples perform murderous acts in the name of whatever god or religion they profess. This somehow helps them shed blame for their horrible deeds and absolve them of guilt.
We are all guilty, all to blame, not so much for the acts of our ancestors but for the acts yet to be committed which we do nothing to prevent. Isn’t it time to stop all this? Have we learned nothing from the World’s bloodstained history? Instead of pointing the finger of guilt, let us lift a finger to help stop all of this insanity.
___________________________________
I'm sure that is a very good idea. I have found that such debates, by their very nature, lead to nothing but ill feeling.
Surely by now, the human race should be smart enough to raise itself above such issues.
Hope that people will abandon false beliefs+stop creating false enemies.
Happy New Year and Special Thanks to ChrisL

Very well said, Aziz.

As they say. "More power to you".

Peace Be With You!

Guerrizmo+Design