This is tricky because when they re-cut a design (which was certainly done a lot) they also usually renamed it! And in a way that was part of the natural cultural transition of the day. So maybe it's better to look at the transformations of type design as a whole - which is of course of a very broad and fuzzy subject (and well presented in Lawson's Anatomy). Maybe you could narrow this down by choosing a "lineage" that's long and relatively focused (even if it's had offshoots). In the sans realm this is especially hard because the history is so much shorter (in typography if not lettering). Maybe the ?...AkzidenzGrotesk...Helvetica...Unica...? lineage.

hhp

Telling that the "R" in the "original" is so much better!
But no lc to compare I guess?

BTW, the "original" was unlikely to have actually been 13 point. Most likely, since I'm guessing it was an all-caps font, the baseline was not followed, the caps filled the height, and so it was probably a 12 (or maybe even smaller) in physical size.

hhp

I don't know, to my untrained eye these two sanses look quite different. That S in the old print is so funky and not just from the roughness, and the R and B are so light in the middle. It's quite odd! Are there any fonts like this that I could buy? The rough edges are rubbish but I suppose one can't avoid them in something so old. Is the type in the ad the very first sans serif? 1843 was quite early for sans serifs wasn't it?

Sorry, is "sanses" even a word? What's the proper plural term?

So much to learn!

Also the B Hrant

Héctor

Nigella, there are several sans families that retain some of the unhomogenized quirkiness of the 19th century grotesques.

Take a look at Monotype Grotesque, Maple (Process Type Foundry), FF Bau (FontShop), Venus (Linotype, et al), Knockout and Leviathan (Hoefler & Frere-Jones)...

Marco,

Thanks for that. I will look into the fonts on your list. I've seen Maple and Knockout of course but hadn't heard of the others.

unlikely to have actually been 13 point

Of course. I was referring to the size of digital type I used to duplicate the setting as closely as possible.

to my untrained eye these two sanses look quite different.

Yes, but if one did the same exercise with, say, a Bodoni of similar vintage and a present day Bodoni, there would be the same kind of relationship. Probably more divergence, in fact.

I'm not sure what it says about colonialism, but you could follow the "Venetian" lineage (Jenson), which has a very clear start point. It's led to some very different designs (Including a sans), so there's a long journey.

Some stops on the way:

Fell
Morris Golden
Cloister
Goudy Californian
Hightower
Adobe Jenson
Houston
Goodchild
Legacy Sans

Thanks alot, these are all great tips.
Im doing a small book for my school. And basically, the theme is post-colonialism. Never mind how exact the translation of the nature of the typeface is, i dont think its so important. I think it will make it too complicated and confusing.

The idea is basically that I will use one typeface, that was redesign over time. I now have Caslon, which ive dated back to its original state in 1725, and its been redesigned/digitized at the latest in 93 i think. Whats interesting for me is the reason for all these redesigns, and the difference from its original state.

So im looking into one type family, because i think if i start looking into types that has been heavily influenced by eachother, like akizdens-helvetica-helvetica neue-pragmatica , that it might become a bit arbitrary, or less clear in the design. What are your thoughts on this?

Im quite happy with my different Caslons, but another question remains, the difference between when it was first designed, and the digitalization of it. there is a difference... Most of the cuts were originally designed pre 1900, but digitzed only recently. I wonder how much got lost in the process.

Nick; this example is very nice,
I would lvoe to find out more about if there exists a family of sans serifs which also has been redesigned over time. (where does the border go from redesigned to a new name, and keeping the same name but making new version? (like helvetic and hevletica neue/ Akzidens grotesk/Helvetica...)

would love to hear your thoughts on this...
dag

Dag, as I am working on a new revival of Caslon, I have looked in to the history of the revivals. One of the things I found, as I explained in my talk at TypeCon this summer, is that all of the revivals from the second part of the 19th century on have recut characters in them, particularly in the italic. None of the revivals is in fact a replica of the original, including Founder's Caslon, though most, including Founder's, have claimed to be 'authentic'. (I am not aiming to be authentic, just good!)

What happened, as historian James Mosley explained to me, is that in the mid-19th century machine casting of type came in, and this burned out matrices in a way that hand casting had not. And punches break. Consequently there was a lot of recutting in the 19th century, generally none of it admitted. To track and sort out the whole story would take a year's work, at least.

ATF's versions are regularized compared to Caslon's original (especially in digital versions of course, such as digital Caslon 540). Monotype had to work with the limitations of their 'unit' system, and Linotype their 'duplex' system, both of which limited in different ways how accurately they could reproduce the originals that they had--which were not actually original in many cases, as I said. Also they often shortened descenders, which was the fashion then for economical setting. The most recent versions of Caslon are, I believe, Founder's Caslon, and Paul Hunt's redigitization for P22 of Lanston Monotype's version. Also P22 issued a 'Franklin's Caslon' based on things Benjamin Franklin had used.

Through all this, Caslon has retained an elusive magic and fascination that has continued from its first revival in 1844.

Dag, if you've in fact settled on Caslon do try to get your
hands on the article about its revivals in Serif magazine.

Oh, and here's an interesting old graph:
http://www.themicrofoundry.com/other/trends.gif

hhp

William,
thanks alot for your insight. has been to great help. I think also i have to overlook the idea of the "original" and stick with the idea. Even though the revivial of the old meant that it changed face from how the type was originaly intended, it still meant that- or maybe even more interesting, means that the foundry that revived it added elements which they saw fit to the current time.

Hrant,
thats great, ill look into that!

Thanks guys
dag

im a student like you, so please keep that in mind while reading. some words regarding akzidenz grotesk (AG) and helvetica:
often people say that AG is a direct ancestor of helvetica, but this is wrong. as far as i know, akzidenz grotesk itself is derived from various sources, mainly royal grotesk by theinhardt. many cuts were added over time (AG Schulbuch, AG Schoolbook, etc.) and werent part of the original design. more about this here and here - in all details. erik spiekermann wrote: «The original series remained quite divers, individual weights showing not much resemblance but name. It was mainly a marketing and naming success.».

helvetica on the other hand, especially the redesign of it by linotype (helvetica neue), is a very clean, neutral grotesk with way less character than AG - which was the aim back then but seems like a negative point to me nowadays. both Credit Suisse and McDonalds use AG as they're corporate typeface, which maybe shows some of the credit it has regained over the last years.

françois rappo, swiss type-designer, created a revival named "Theinhardt Grotesk" which is probably based on original drawings of royal grotesk, and it really looks lovely. google doesnt find much about it, but its used in the nice book "We Make Fonts" by ECAL, the design&arts-university of lausanne, switzerland. here's a link to the cover. i think the book's worth its price just for showing theinhardt grotesk…

if this last link ever goes down (its hosted on a free image hosting website), go to amazon.com and search for "we make fonts". the picture comes from there.

a very clean, neutral grotesk

Pablum, from the country that gave the world muesli.

In lower case, the word pablum is often used to describe anything bland, oversimplified and generally unsatisfying, especially a work of literature or speech. This usage is thought to derive from the cereal.

mr. bircher-benner (the original creator of the müesli) had his clinic in zurich. at least something. frutiger comes from interlaken, miedinger worked in basel. but the müesli comes from zurich!

If the Swiss were as good at making fonts as they are at
making cheese, they would never have made Helveeta.
(Bruno is just an exception that proves the rule. :-)

hhp

"Helveeta"

That's it! Thanks Hrant. I'll be using that.

What a cheezy font that would be :-)

ChrisL

FYI, I didn't make that up - I got it from somewhere.
Helvomita and Fartura however are mine.

hhp

If the Swiss were as good at making fonts as they are at
making cheese, they would never have made Helveeta.
(Bruno is just an exception that proves the rule. :-)

i take that as a personal attack! ;)

I wouldn't - cheese and chocolate make life much nicer than fonts even could!

hhp

personaly, im not sure about that! ;)