hi tim

i like it, but i think there is something strange in the contrast in the AU in MAUI. in someway i think that two thick strokes don't work very well together, even though i am not sure that it will work better if you flip your M and A, i think that you should try that.

In "Cruisers" i think that you should work with two different "s", just to take away the spirit of a script typeface and give it a look like manual script.

i dont know if i was clear in my observations, but anyway, i hope that they are usefull

CG

The balancing seems way too contrived. I know the M of Maui is suppose to extend down to the M of Mountain - but what's the point really. I also think the words could be sized differently - make Cruisers big and overlap it on top of mountain knock out the egdes to white. And Maui Mountain could be smaller, justified center

What's the smallest this will typically be reproduced? I'd worry about the "Cruisers" staying legible.

Spacing: I'd open up the "UI" and the "IN".

hhp

Thanks for the feedback.

Christian -- Will try the "M & A flip." Agreed about the second "s" in the script face. In fact there is an alternate built into the face which I'll use for now, but eventually plan to further extend the concept onto that as well.

Tanya -- Point taken. Not sure about the "knockout," but I think the eventual color scheme may accommodate overlap. I definitely think a larger "Cruisers" bears exploration. Also, will play with alignment suggestions.

Hrant -- Thanks for the kerning tips. will open "UI" and "IN." Legibility of "Cruisers" at smaller sizes is an a shared concern. I'll pump out some print samples to mimic smallest projections.

Possible solutions?
- Larger size
- Add more weight to the face
- An alternate? (some possibilities posted--as an image--in previous thread)


Will post iterations ASAP.

Aloha,

-t

Here's some revisions review. All include opening of "UI" and "IN" pairs as per Hrant's keen eye, some clean up of script 'ligatures' ("C-r" needs work) and alternate second "s."

2a. Aformentioned revisions




2b. Same as 2a but with "M"s and "A"s flipped for Cristian




3. Maui Mountain centered, larger (too much?) and overlapping script. Tanya is this ANYTHING like what you were thinking? I'm having some difficulty with positioning and legibility here... but it makes me think that the larger script element/proportion is a good idea in general.




Aloha,

-t

Call me a ductus rebel, but I like 2b most.
And the "IN" needs a hair more space.

hhp

You are at that Mr. Papazian!

Does the so-called "flip" require additional letter spacing ("AU," "MO," "TAI") in your opinion?

Will add the "IN" hair you speak of mañana.

Other ideas... "Cruisers" larger? Something playful/swalsh-like to finish the final "s?"

Looking forward to Monday and more scrutinizing Typofeyels (ouch).

Cheers,

-t

2b2. "IN" opened a tad, slightly larger "Cruisers" nudged left, etc.

4. More contrast play 72pt Initial Cap, 55pt 'small cap'. Likely requires new kerning adjustments ("MO")?

I vote no on the flipage and the fake small caps. 2A is better.
Tim, did you hand draw the Maui Mountain or modify an existing font? (Guessing the latter)

<putting_on_sherlock_holmes_hat>
The reason I say that is from looking at the A. The thin stroke looks overly thin. That is because it used to have a cross bar and the thin got thinned even more to compensate. Now that it's gone, the thin needs some weight back. Make it look the same as the thin on the N. Also check the thick stroke. They may have been shaved too (hard to tell at this resolution). BTW since the M = A+A that will need fixing too.

The O might want more space in the middle (too dark). Instead of straight sides, try an oval made of 4 points.

Script: This will need fixing in three places. 1. The Cr connection isn't smooth and could maybe use a bit more weight, 2. se spacing combination is too tight. You may want to draw a custom connection between them wrapping the s a little tighter and connecting it to the e. 3 er connection changes weight too quickly.

Randy

Randy wrote:

"did you hand draw the Maui Mountain or modify an existing font? (Guessing the latter)"

You're right, it's just a tweak on Leviathan, removed "A"s crossbar and constructed "M" from that. I'll try adding the width you mention to those characters and play with the "O"s counter.

I tend to agree on the "flipage," while it's an interesting twist--something about it urks me. I sort of go back and forth on it though.

Randy -- what's your opinion in regards to the overall size of "Cruisers" in say 2A vs 2B2?

Fully aware of the "Cr" and "er" script requirements and I like the idea on the "se" spacing/connection. Can you clarify what you mean by "wrapping the s a little tighter?" Do you mean the radius of finishing loop -- so it comes in a little lower to be able to connect it to the "e"?

Thanks for everyone's thoughtful input. Typophile is such a valuable resource for us freelancers who are not working in a design shop and cannot easily bounce ideas off of collegues.

Aloha,

-t

What's your opinion in regards to the overall size of "Cruisers" in say 2A vs 2B2?
I think the word cruisers is problematic in general. It's causing the whole logo to lack cohesiveness (possibly because of the cap C?). I think that's what you were trying to solve in #3 above. What about trying a lower case c? Try a bunch of other layouts to solve this issue.

You're getting close.

Do you mean the radius of finishing loop -- so it
comes in a little lower to be able to connect it to the "e"?
Yes.

The gap between the u in Mountain and the u in Cruisers
I think throws things off a bit.

And asking a thin script to form the base of your stack ...
it's like Leviathan is going to crush whatever is underneath.

Tim, keeping Leviathan, what if you stacked the three
words to form a triangular mountain shape.

Maui on top (peak), Mountain (middle), Cruisers (base), still in Leviathan,
but extended enough to form the base of the mountain.

A wee bit of Transform > Free Distort in illustrator could
help, but not enough to distort any letterforms.

just an idea. If you keep Leviathan + script, maybe Maui
should be in script at the top?

bj

Thank you Randy & BJ -- I've may have just had a lightbulb or two go off as a result of your comments. Or, maybe it's just a short circuit.

Watch this space...

-t

2a. same as "2a" before (for reference)



2a2. Thicker strokes on "A" and "M" to compensate for removal of "A" cross bar, opened counter on "O" for more white-space. Kerning remains unchanged as of now. Do "AU" and "TA" some?




Changes are subtle but discernable (I think). Does this even out the read well enough or...?



Playing around with alt layouts to solve the overall balance riddle, but it seems like everything I try today looks like doo doo. Maybe later.

Cheers,

-t

Hrant, you are a ductus rebel.



Not that this is something bad.

jpg

too rich for my bloodTYPE!

5. Letterform Changes.





Tried to make "M" & "A" more moutainesque while balancing out the weight of other forms. This is sorted of uncharted territoty for me, could use feedback (forms, kerning, ANYTHING!).

Aloha,

-t

Hi All,

Having done a bunch of sketching, it seems that this and the "centered stack" concept hold the most promise. Haven't done any work on the script connectors but have made subtle changes to the sans. Still though, something doesn't feel right to me. What's missing or not missing? Feedback and fresh eyes are much needed. Thanks!




Cheers,

-t

100 posts! I'm right on Hrant's tail

Where the script C intersects the M, it might work to have negative color. It looks like you still haven't connected the C and r quite right. I'd like to see that looking more polished.

It feels really comfortable and energizing right now, which says to me that you are really close on this. You've done a really bang-up job on this.

I think the unified "M" works, but it's way too dark. And try wedging the "A" into it.

hhp

Tim:

You know that multiple posts don't count, right? (Hrant paid me to type that

Y'know

Hey, Scott, you just gave me an idea:
Make the two words like mountain ranges by putting the "MAUI" behind the "MOUNTAIN", I mean with a slight vertical overlap - but you'd need an outline to convey the depth difference.

hhp

Thanks for the feedback guys! It think I'm finally on the right track here.

Van -- I have yet to focus on the script connectors. That'll probably be the last bit to polish. In regards to the negative color for the ovelap. The final is likely to have Cruisers being a considerably darker color than "Maui Mountain," so the overlap will naturally take care of itself.

Hrant -- Agreed "M" is WAY too dark. It throws off the balance. I'll try taking some weight out of it, or maybe breaking it up with a white zig-zag line which follow the the letter form? I like the idea of wedgeing the A as well. I had a feeling there was too much white space between the right most downward slope of the "M" and the "A"

Scott (my original compadre) -- Glad to have you back! I'd thought I'd lost you there ever since i nixed the House tiki type Playing with the peaks to make them flow upwards and down has possibilities. Also, I think it could make the forms look more volcanoesque. Can you clarify the position of "Cruisers" you were suggesting? Do you mean right aligned with (beneath) mountain and without "C" overlap?

More to come...

Cheers,

-t

Some iterations with lighter weight "M" and the "A" wedged. Names based on # of em units the "M" weight was modified, i.e., 10.20 = -20 em units, 10.70 = -70 em units. I think I know which one I like, what about you?




Aloha,

-t

W E D G I E S !







Sorry if the image's text color is a little dense, i.e., not enough white space.

-t

10.74

hhp

I concur.

Hrant -- Is that to say that 10.70 is the weight you prefer as well?

-t

New Typophile Rule: Posts consisting of only numbers, initials, or one syllable words do not count towards your "Post Number" total

Yeah actually, the weight in 10.70 looks good too.

BTW, my post had punctuation.

hhp

The 10.70 weight looks most balanced to me as well and I also like 10.74 wedge. Although 10.78 is interesting and adds some depth perspective, I think ulimately it is less legible and that consideration takes precedence

Hrant wrote: "BTW, my post had punctuation."

Semantics, cheeky typophile.

Anyone else care to chime in on the "M" weight and "A" wedge or anything else? Tiffany, Tanya, BJ, Scott, Daniel, Aquatoad -- I highly value your opinions.

-t

Worth exploring? Maybe extend the peaks across the range (no pun) of all the sans letterform (tops)? "T" could be problematic. Or maybe just "MAUI." It seems to add some depth. I'm split.

Based on 10.74



Cheers,

-t

Scott -- I missed your comment on slightly arcing cruisers. Sounds interesting. I may play with that a bit. At the very least, placing it on an angle may liven it up.

-t

Sorry to pester, but my deadline is looming and I'd love to get some fresh eyes on this. I'm currently working on the script connectors and fiddling with "Cruisers"'s placement, but could use some more feedback about the best "M" weight, the wedged "A" and weather or not you think the "peaks" concept bears exploration.

Will post multi-sized examples of best weight+wedge with "Cruisers" polished for a final kerning check soon after. Also beginning color explorations.

Thanks busy typophiles!

-t

I still kind'a like the mountain range direction, but I don't like the chiseled peaks. I would keep the peaks flat, like the original type. Also, I think more variation is needed in the heights (see below, marked in red).

As for "Cruisers" positioning, I was thinking something like this (see below marked in red). Sorry I don't have your script type.



Hope this helps.

Thanks Tiffany & Scott,

I tend to agree with you here. The slanted peaks do trick the eye in a negative way. I think it may be best to leave them be and have some fun with "Cruisers."


CAN I ASSUME THAT WE'RE IN AGREEMENT ABOUT 10.74 in terms of "M" weight and "A" wedge? (See my posts #103/104)


Tiffany -- I haven't had a chance to fix the script connections yet and am aware or the C-r, s-e, e-r issues. I agree that some fiddling with the placement, angle, and kerning could liven the word up as well as the overall contrast.

Scott -- Hmmm, I like what you've done with the peaks by leaving them flat, but wonder if there's still not too much optical trickery occuring, which tends to distract. I'll have to look at this more closely. I like the cruisers on an arc or at least on more of an angle concept and pushed right. I'm gonna play around with it a bit.

Cheers,

-t

<font class="dontLookLikeCrap">hey tim - I hope you don't mind but I was bored and thought of playing with your concept a bit in order to show what I meant way back there with the overlapping.

if this helps with your concept go ahead and tweak it.

maui.ai maui.ai (146.1 k)

</font>

I like the lava suggested by the top one.
But I'd drop the upcurl at the right of "Cruisers".

Your attempts also have a nice "rough" look, which however might not fit the type of people who pay money for this stuff - dunno.

hhp

I don't think it is legible. You need something clean to contrast against something rough in this case. Keep Cruisers clean. Also, I think it has too many tiers (the mountain, the "maui", the "mountain", and "cruisers"). If you are going to do something decorative like the volcano-mountain then don't add another element with "cruisers".

Going back to Scott's idea: I think he has a good idea with the "maui" and "mountain" part, but I don't like the cruisers placement. I would mess with that. Here is my idea.

aaa well - like I said I just wanted to play with it a bit to show some overlapping and how the white contour can solve a bunch of space problems.

- its by no means *that* thought out. The upcurl or course is way too similar to the C but I had suggested way back that things could be center justified with that triangular base. something needs to 'end' it so to speak. perhaps just thinner and not so long. I donno.

the roughness thing was only because I exported paths of of Tim's .gif image and didn't bother simplifying them. I thought after that it might have been apropos for style...because honestly I don't see the relation of a danty, girly, script face with these freakish people who fall 38miles peddle-free. I'm sure the "cruisers" aren't that elegant. hehe

but anyway if this visual sparks an idea then great. Its sometimes hard to explain things in words.

Thought's/Idea's:

I like the motion in Tanya's "Cruisers" treatment, and generally the contrast in type.

Everyone is flirting with a Mountain/M, but It just feels like a badly distorted M to me. Give it some freedom. I might even pull the A into the mix and make a little range.

Enjoying the post,

Andrew

something i toyed with...

yes, i know i misspelled mountain.

Wow,

I'm back from the grave. I haven't forgotton about wrapping up this fine thread. I'm just gathering my thoughts and responses to the flurry of fine posts that occurred rather late in the design process. More soon...

-tim

I missed my daily typophile fix.

MAUI MOUNTAIN CRUISERS Redux

Firstly, my apologies for falling off there -- but I was past deadlines and had to move on to other aspects of what was a larger project.

I wanted to be sure and post the final logo and thank everyone involved for their excellent eyes, critiques, guidance, feedback, ideas and mock-ups.

Unfortunately, some feedback came just a little too late for me to respond to, as I had committed to one direction that I was (by that point) fine tuning. Thanks nonetheless, to Tanya, BJ, Tom C. and Andrew for their concepts.

SPECIAL Thanks to Scott K., Tiffany, and Hrant for their professorial like tutelage -- never giving away too much, but just enough to inspire one to think about the design challenge in new ways.

SUPERCALAFRAGILISTICEXPEALIDOCIOUS T h a n k s to Randy Jones for his mentoring and hands on help perfecting those pesky script face beziers, not to mention other subtleties which really brought the final design to life. Thanks Aquatoad!





Notes About The Final Design
Much happened as compared to iteration "10.74" from my post #104, including weight and letterform changes to the "M," a sizing up of "Maui," and the obvious enhancements to "Cruisers" which include smoothing of the curves and connectors, adding weight to the face, a bit of vertical squashing, and a fine finishing flourish. Color directions have yet to be decided, but are likely to resemble the lavaesque orange currently displayed at the new website where you can see the logo basking:
http://www.mauimountaincruisers.com/


What I Learned
SKETCH, SKETCH, SKETCH! Whether by pencil, paper and erasure (my preference) or tablet -- there is simply no better way to work out solutions to logotype and letterform challenges than mad scientist like sketching. Have fun with it. Brainstorm, scribble any concept that comes to mind.

There are many possible ways to solve a problem, but there's usually one or two that are "best." Still, it's subjective, and what you consider best might be someone else's "worst."

Use your eyes. Always consider legibility. How do the letterforms "sound" to your eyes? Balance positive as well as negative space. White space is your friend -- don't ignore it.

Know when to say when. There comes a point where you have to commit, fine tune and finish -- even with personal projects.

Contrast is key, especially when it comes to logos with many words and letters such as this one.


Typophile Props
Typophile, in my opinion, is the web's richest resource and community. The sheer abundance and quality of information available to type designers, typographers, and graphic designers is astonishing.

I only hope that I can give back some iota of what I've received in my little time here. In fact, it's my prediction that I'll reach 6,000 post long before Hrant.


Thanks again to everyone who participated. I hope I can offer valuable input to your thread as well.

Aloha,

-tim

The color from the website really brings out the logo even more. I like the tail at the end of "cruisers". Congratulations! It looks great.

Thanks Tom! I put a lot of time into that palette. It looks especially nice when contrasted with a photo that has a lot of blue sky in it. The photos are suppossed to change each time you arrive on the home page, but IE is being quirky about caching them. Soon to be fixed.

-t

Regarging your post (TIM) #109 -- I think slanting the M is too tricking. It messes with the eyes in a negative way.

The connection of the letters s>e is too tight and seems like there could be a smoother transition from letter to letter. The s seems a little tall (in the altogether and in the loop), which could explain why the transition from s to e seems forced. And the r seems a little short. The connection from C to r seems to have a bump in it too.

I really like the direction you have taken this, however I wonder if the word "Cruisers" could be a little more extended? Looser. Same style, but more of a scrawl or rather stretched across the bottom of the word "Mountain"?