One reason is we're passionate about type.

Another is that the impersonality of written communication
causes our repressed negativism to be channeled through it.

My hope is that I -and others- can assimilate and leverage
whatever is thrown around, instead of adopting unnatural
behavior... whatever the hell that means.

And now I really need to get horizontal...

hhp

Patty: Testosterone? I dunno. I used to enjoy a good fight (mental or physical) but I also didn't like hurting people, so I avoided them except when it seemed important. Now that I'm getting to be middle aged, enjoying them - not so much.

Insert some platitude here like "people are different."

T

I guess its just that time of the year again.
Spring becoming summer. Men becoming kids, again. :)

Dav

Saying it was a case of men turning to kids again is insinuating that there is ever far to go in that regards.
; )

Btw (formlos), I just surfed into Neonua. Very nice addition to the monocase concept.

* Yea, Some of you may have noticed by now, that 'English' is not my native language. :)

Dav

Did you spill my pint?

Who's fighting, you @#&@$! #$#&#@#@ %$#@%^&& ?!?!

I don't think there is a problem with discourse and dialogue which promotes healthy exchange of differing ideas. The problem is that some people revert to personal attacks rather than just presenting more evidence supporting their own opinion. The evidence is what convinces and what spreads knowledge to others. The personal attacks just kill whatever respect people might have had for the attacker and don't win supporters of that person's point of view. Opinions and passions are fine but when they escalate to insults, nobody wins or learns.

ChrisL

But the people, the persons, are the entire context of it all. Remove that, and
you're left with a formal, clinical illusion - an irrelevant posturing/venting.

hhp

what chris said.
also, if someone begins making personal attacks or hateful remarks in general against anyone/any group, please ask them to stop and edit their own posting. if these kinds of remarks continue, please contact a moderator.

It's our lack of real life... life jajajaja

Héctor

But Héctor, I thought you had a life :-)

ChrisL

Lord knows it doesn't make me want to participate! I can imagine it might scare off newbies too. I don't see why the conversation can't remain civil. This is a forum about type and design, not a group therapy session.

It’s a free group therapy session. ;^)

Typoholics Anonymous in Room 101
Recovering typoholics tell harrowing tales of how type ruined their lives. How their wives accused them of seeing women like Caecilia, Tiffany and Mrs Eaves from down the road or whose husbands accused them of whoring about with the likes of Arnold Boeklin and the Duc de Berry.

Typophile Rehabilitation in Room 102
The state has released these typophiles after progressively worsening and repeated type offences in the hope that some heavy handed group therapy will sort them out. Each one’s story similar to the next. How it all started with a harmless affair with a small Dolly.

I don’t see why the conversation can’t remain civil.

You haven't been targeted by Hrant.

It's not you, it's your ideas (otherwise I would never
say anything nice about you - which I do, as warranted).
But I would never ask you to not have them, or even not
express them, and I certainly wouldn't ask a moderator
to censure you. But everybody is different, and if some-
body feels the need to do those things I need to tolerate
that (which is not the same thing as shutting up about it).
This is why I put my faith in the people who manage this
great place, as opposed to its individual participants.
Remember: monarchist. :-)

hhp

there's something children are being taught, at least here in switzerland: a fight always gets started by two people, not by one alone.

I reiterate, why go below the belt? Everyone is entitled to their ideas, and to agree or disagree with others ideas. But the insults shouldn't have to get personal. Y'all are sounding like rightwing radio pundits.

In other words, what chris said.

Don't know Patty, I guess some enjoy it, I must confess I have actually enjoyed a couple of rants, and I know it only makes it worse, so let's try to avoid them.

Héctor

>You haven't been targeted by Hrant

I have. The antidote to rage is the power of compassion and acceptance of the dignity of all, including Hrant--who deserves to be treated with respect just as do you and I.

I don't know how best to foster that spirit of compassion in Typophile discussions, but I do know that returning insults is not going to help. The best way to moderate discussions is by a moderator, but these are voluntary and have limited time.

Thanks for posting this Patty. While I'm no saint, I've been increasingly discouraged by the constant bickering and pissing contests I've been seeing lately. There's some real knowledge on this site, its just a shame to see the egos constantly get in the way. I've also noticed that people who used to contribute to this site more frequently aren't around as often anymore as well. Could there be a connection? As of now, I'm a recovering typoholic.

I haven't been around that much lately, but not just because of that reason. Somehow the atmosphere has changed a bit. It's a pitty. Before there was more positive discussion and helping. I don't find that that much anymore these days.

I would love to be more on Typophile, so I will stay tuned.

®

www.characters.nl { Dutch typography to express yourself }

Hi Terry...
nice to see your "blue face" again ;-)
Notice that I've gone "faceless" myself in my avatar.

As for the debate tactics of some of the posts, it just makes it a little harder to glean the wisdom within threads while having to wade through the "organic fertilizer".

You have a point Terry I don't enjoy the negative comments and would rather visit another site. The one thing I try to do is find things to lighten the mood of people here.

Typophile embodies three crafts - type design, graphic design and typography - and treats two subjects - text type and display type. Given this range, and to a lesser extent the cultural and philosophical range of the people using the site, there's a lot of fundamental disagreement.

There are two possible responses for the moderators. The liberal response is to run the site as if beliefs held by users were no more than preferences, not to be arbitrated between from above. The Aristotelian response would have it that all crafts have inherent in them a set of virtues which must be agreed upon for them to be virtues at all; that disputes concerning them should therefore normally be arbitrated as if the differing opinions held were either true or false; that crafts should be separately embodied where the virtues inherent to them clash, as they clearly do with graphic design and text design; and that in each embodiment, some kind of guild-like hierarchy of authority is required to legitimate arbitration.

Though Typophile has a formally designated ruling class, they've taken the liberal path. What follows is disagreement without the possibility of settlement, and this we see endlessly. Typophile is less valuable than it could be for the same reason in miniature that Western government is less valuable than it could be: within its field, it embodies no conception of the good.

Perhaps you didn't want quite that much detail, Patty :-)

returning insults is not going to help

It works for me. I feel better to be dishing it out rather than enduring constant "needling", as you put it. Also, I've found that after I bite back, he eases up on me for a while. Do you really believe the victim should show compassion for his/her tormentor?

I've asked him to lay off the personal remarks (for which I am mocked for being a whiny artiste), so have moderators, but he keeps right on. You can talk about this problem in general terms, but it's rather obvious that the top dog here (200+ posts) sets the tone Patti decries, instigating most of the pissing contests and scaring away those who want to avoid them.

Keep it about the type, people.

Nick, I know you don't expect to be criticized,
and that it hurts, but do try to pay attention
to what others are saying. I am [trying to].

> I feel better

Well, of itself that's a good reason.
But what makes a given person feel better isn't necessarily good for his society,
and a responsible "citizen" (which I'm not claiming I am, btw) minds that.

> after I bite back, he eases up on me

I don't think that's true, but if it is, that's my
weakness - I'll try to have more self-discipline.
I hope that when I ease off (again, from attacking
your ideas, if in the context of you - but not you)
it's generally because I'm bored.

> 200+ posts

I think there's an important elaboration due here: most of my posts are very short these days. If you count the number of bytes or something, I'm sure I'm not at the top. Just look at some of those big juicy threads with mega-posts, that I'm not even properly participating in. I need to take a vacation just to catch up with you guys!

Also: I'm sure you agree that I don't need to post a lot to be offensive
to you. You complain about me even when I'm not on the prolific list.

hhp

It works for me
Absolutely: let's not underestimate the satisfaction of replying to aggression with aggression. In a liberal environment, it's all one's got. Long term, I really do think there should be two General Discussions fora, one for text and absolute truth, the other for graphic design and cultural difference. Posting in either should entail at least a good tourist's respect for the local world-view.

> Keep it about the type, people.

Yes, in spite of everything.

Don't let somebody's objectionable delivery distract
you from addressing the content. That's the type of
thing I tend to mean when I use the term "tolerance".

--

George, I think your intent is admirable, but that sort of purism is inhuman.

hhp

Keep it about the type, people.
The problem is that even type’s not just about type.

>Do you really believe the victim should show compassion for his/her tormentor?

>it works for me.

Having compassion and being a patsy are two different things. I am not saying that you shouldn't respond, but I am saying that returning insults doesn't help.

You say it works for you, but I don't see the evidence. Hrant has not let up, and as you can see it doesn't work for the rest of us, who don't enjoy running across this stuff in otherwise interesting threads.

Just to be clear, even though I disagree with both you and Hrant half the time, I find you always well informed and often quite interesting. I often find Hrant interesting when he is not in a rage.

everybody was kung fu fighting..

>liberal response is to run the site as if beliefs held by users were no more than preferrences

George, that is one kind of relativist, soft-headed liberalism, which is unfortunately too common. But a belief in fostering a diversity of views within discussion is a traditional liberal belief that is consistent with strong values and decisions to enforce them. Among these strong values are beliefs in tolerance, civility within discussion, and non-violent ways of settling disputes. These are a part of the great liberal tradition in England and America, and I treasure them.

i must admit, as a moderator my style has been fairly laissez faire. but since losing a vauable contributer in the recent past, i will be tolerant of shenanigins no longer. if things get out of hand, don't expect me to stand idlely by.

Terry,
Good to have you back!
The sun must be shining even in Cincy by now :-)

ChrisL

> Somehow the atmosphere has changed a bit.

Yes. The biggest victim has been type crits. And I think
the more a person claims expertise and success, the more
he should participate in crits. It's the Spiderman thing:
"With power comes responsability."

> since losing a vauable contributer in the recent past

Which is very rare (and was not due to "Mr 200+", Nick).

hhp

Hey the South Park characters posting was fun and everyone enjoyed it. It wasn't about type but types

Bill, the values you mention are not virtues teleological to any substantive conception of the good within any practice (except that of governing an irreparably fractious society); they are, as it were, negative rather than positive values (with the exception of civility). You need more than tolerance: you need things to defend.

On the other hand, most people here actually do have a similar enough set of opinions. Where I disagree strongly I end up a contributor to some of the fights, so I doubt I'm a force for good. I'll post less in future, but Typophile is wonderful, and I'm very grateful for what I've learnt from it. Thanks everyone!

>not virtues teleological to any substantive conception of the good

First of all the virtue ethics of Aristotle is weak because it is too focused on the person. But this would take us too far afield.

In any case the values I mention do absolutely serve to promote a dynamic society in which there is social improvement and the growth of knowledge. They have done so and will continue to do so. Tolerance is not a negative value because it requires a positive structure to support free exchange of ideas. Settling disputes by non-violent means is a positive value in fostering a whole variety of democratic institutions, including elections and court of law.

But democracy and intolerance go hand-in-hand.

Typophile is not democratic, and that's why it works.
Same with China.

hhp

>democracy and intolerance go hand-in-hand.

Opposite of the truth. While modern democratic societies have had their lapses, dictatorships like Hitler, Idi Amin, Pol Pot etc. etc. have been far more intolerant of minority groups and of criticism of the government and diversity of opinion.

Bill, I think tolerance can be a negative value while still requiring a positive structure, just as a free market requires enforcement. You're right to correct me on non-violence, it is indeed a positive value within the context of a law-possessing society, which every society should be. I'm not a democrat myself.

William, you speak of the surface, while I speak of the depths.

And nevermind that Hitler for one was elected democratically.
And what do you think of Hamas's election, I wonder? Actually,
no, I don't wonder.

hhp

cool it hrant. if you want to debunk ideas, keep to the ideology. don't attack individuals.

OK, edited.

hhp

>Hitler for one was elected democratically

From what I can see, this is a myth. However, I have other more pressing matters, so I won't continue discussing politics.

Back to the original topic, (while I haven't been here for all that long), I think it's just the natural evolution and ongoing maturity that needs to happen in any online community.

Don't fight it too hard (the fighting), but try to steer it in the right direction.