How do I attach an image? I get a "directory not supported" error message. Let me post the image to Flickr.

macgirl

Please upload an example.

Sorry double post. Try http://typophile.com/readme for extra help.

Link: http://static.flickr.com/34/123029406_020c14abd6_b.jpg

Is this a crop of the page? Perhaps you could also give us a look at the entire page and its grid to assist with our comments and thoughts?

Hang on... let me PDF it with all the gridlines.

macgirl

New link with guides.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/78824399@N00/123033202/

The format of the magazine is 8.5" x 8.5". I've gone with a two column layout over a 10x10 grid with a 1/8" gutter. I've done this so I can have more freedom with the image sizes and such.

macgirl

A couple of initial thoughts for you. Your grid is going to be quite flexible for you and work to your advantage in allowing for creative and interesting compositions, however I do think this could be adjusted slightly.

I think you could allow for slightly more room in the outside margins – don’t forget we have thumbs and a generous space for mine is always appreciated.

Does the grid allow for or require space for page markers and general navigation indicators? For example have you developed a system for section marking, page numbering etc? If this is to be a requirement, now or in the future, perhaps either the top or bottom margin will benefit form extra space also.

Looking at this grid it actually allows for 4 col not just 2? You do not always have to confine yourself to only two col. Experiment with combinations of wide and thin column where appropriate.

Does your grid indicate a specified height at which article headings, sub heads, and intro paragraphs fall? Dictating this may allow for more consistency from article to article, issue to issue.

Have you considered a method for pull quotes, and their usage? For example size, typeface choice, emphasis etc.

What is your chosen serif for body copy at this stage?

Hope these ideas help. Good luck.

Best.
-nic

I see your point about the margins... however, the margins are already set at 1/2" and I lose 1/4 of that during trimming (the printer told me that). I don;t know if I can afford to lose more paper space, as the mag is tiny as it is.

As for general navigation, I will place the page numbers at the bottom center of the page. I tried top right and it didn't work too well. ONce I place those in, I'll upload again.

As for section markers, I'm still debating that. I was thinking of something running down the right side of the page, in three shades of green (one for each section of the mag) and in three locations (top, center, bottom) which would correspond to that section. It should be easy to navigate, I think, once I include these section markers.

I will look into wide/thin columns, as well as a 4-column layout for the second section of the mag, which is the student work. I'll post that once ready.

Finally, for articles the headline always falls either directly above or directly on the middle third of the grid, but always around that center area. That allows me to have some wiggle room for headlines that are too long (I can break them to two lines, like the example) or headlines that are too short (which can have a larger font size).

The pull quotes are being dealt with in the same manner as the headlines: Trebuchet at a small point size.

My big, big question is about the serif. Do Trebuchet and Bell (my chosen serif for now) play well together? Sometimes I think they do, sometimes I think they don't. Maybe I need an extra set of eyes to choose this.

If Bell is not a good option, then which other serif can I use?

thanks a bunch,

macgirl

For the pull quotes.

http://static.flickr.com/43/123055109_97ed5d2db8_b.jpg

macgirl

PDF's of the four final selections for the body text.

http://web.njit.edu/~sr77/

Click on PDF's.

thanks,
macgirl

Comparing the PDF's that you have here, I personally believe that Minion has a stronger relationship to Trebuchet due to the similar x-heights and letter widths. In my opinion the two appear to work quite well together in this setting.

Have you considered Gill Sans at all? Gill is an option I pose as it is slightly "thinner" than Trebuchet when comparing letter width, and thus may work even better with Minion for this reason.

-nic

May I also offer the suggestion that I think the space between the bottom of the body copy and the page numbers appears too tight. I would suggest inserting some more "breathing space" so as to ensure the eye does not wonder. Whether this means moving the numeral down (take care to consider trim), or otherwise loosing some of the columns height will benefit from some thought.

-nic

Some thoughts on the design:

1) I agree with devisionbell, I think the page numbers are way too close to the copy columns.

2) I think the gutters in between columns are too narrow...Might be difficult to distinguish a line break. I've noticed a number of justified word spacing on the text column that are approximately the same width as your gutter.

3) Also in the article title page and the picture page, your paragraphs are divided by a space with the start of the next paragraph set justified left. In the text page pdfs, there is a space and paragraph indention. I think paragraph treatments should be consistent?

Hope this helps. Thanks

Joseph

I prefer the Minion choice, but a few points:
Your indent seems excessive especially when you have a line space I think you could bring it back to an em (the height of your leading).
I would try to make the body copy sit on a baseline grid, so that when you break it with a picture or pull quote the two columns still align because you have a narrow gutter it is more noticeable.
The pull quotes should probably be ranged left and ragged right with as few hyphens (if any) as you can get away with and should either really intrude into a column or not at all (your Minion pdf is really too small an intrusion) the space at top at bottom should ideally appear the same, try to keep at least three lines together when breaking a paragraph with either a column break or pull quote – you need to be flexible with your grid.
Depending on the number of pages you could steal some space from the centre of your grid to add to the outside margins.
Where you mention creep (the loss of up to a quarter of your margin during trimming) you should also note this will affect any sidebar section markers, although you could apply them to the top or bottom of the page.
Hope some of this helps.
Tim

Hi, Susana,

I agree with some of the comments already posted here. I think that you are off to a good start by having used a grid to organize the page layout, but maybe it could use some adjusting.

As juki says, at 1/8 of an inch your gutter is too narrow to keep the columns separated visually. The gutter should be at least 1 pica wide (12 points, or 0.166 inches), just to be on the safe side.

If you modify the gutter width, you may also want to consider modifying the amount of columns within the page grid. May I suggest having an uneven number of columns rather than an even number? This might give you more flexibility to play around with different column widths (for example, you could have two wide columns for the main text and a thinner column reserved for photo captions, but otherwise kept blank -- this would give your pages some much-needed white space, as well).

Last but not least, using a grid does not mean that you have to fill up every last space with text... Things might start to look "boxy." Try using a left-only justification (i.e., ragged right), as timd suggests, even for the main body copy, and compare that with the current justified spread.

Hope this is helpful!

Working on the new revisions as I type this. Will post PDF's when I'm done.

thanks all for the comments and suggestions :)

macgirl

Okay, I have made some revisions. Let me know what you think.

http://web.njit.edu/~sr77/

Click on PDF's.

thanks,
macgirl

First glance, you should avoid hyphenating Koolhaas (or any proper noun), on the second page you have a very lonely word (populism) I would take over the whole sentence to the second column and adjust the photograph to suit. I would adjust the crop of the photo of Nathans to remove the dark strip on the right. I am not to keen on the pull quotes being hyphenated or indented and it is worth investigating ranged left for the body copy if only to reject it. Overall though it is looking good.
Tim

are those extreme indents common practice in North America? where i come from those would be a BIG no-no (here they should only be 1 em unit).

I definitely agree with the indents. I tried to make them smaller, but they're still not small enough. I will keep modifying until they "feel" right.

Also, the pull quotes are not supposed to be indented. I mistakenly applied the same paragraph style to the pull quotes as I did for the rest of the text, so I will correct that soon. One thing I was thinking for the pull quotes (which I will post in the next PDF'd version) is to justify them to whatever side they happen to touch the body text (e.g., if the pull quote is on a left page, then it would be justified to the right because the pull quote's right side will "touch" the body text and its left side will "float" towards the margin). Makes any sense? I will fix and show when I'm done.

timd:

I agree with the Nathan's mysterious dark strip to the right. It will be cropped out. I knew there was something bothering me about that and I couldn't quite put my finger to it. Also, I hadn't picked up on the "populism" thing. Will fix as well.

I'm not sure how to go about not hyphenating certain words (like Koolhaas, for instance) when the rest of the text is being hyphenated. Is there a way to do this?

I will post soon. :)

thanks,
macgirl

One thing I've noticed when comparing the real deal to how it looked in Quark is that there's always more white space around the document than I need. Check to see if your printer is going to add on any extra on in addition to the space you've already budgeted.

The latest PDF is looking good, macgirl. The pages are definitely looking less boxy. :-)

I like your idea of justifying the pull quotes depending on what side of the body text they touch... makes sense.

Paragraph indents for body text: again, you might want to try 1 pica (0.166 of an inch) and start experimenting from there.

Last but not least, you ask about how to avoid hyphenation for things like pull quotes. Check out pattyfab's suggestions about "no hyphenation" H&J settings in QuarkXPress, here:

http://typophile.com/node/18953

R.

In H&Js under Edit drop down, edit the form of hyphenation you are using (probably Standard) to adjust hyphenation make sure that break capitalised words isn't checked. Alternatively, manually turnover for pull quotes, titles etc.
Tim

One thing I’ve noticed when comparing the real deal to how it looked in Quark is that there’s always more white space around the document than I need. Check to see if your printer is going to add on any extra on in addition to the space you’ve already budgeted.
I don't understand this, do you mean the printer isn't trimming your work to the trim marks?
Tim

I think you've done a fantastic job.
2 comments:
•Bastards on the margins (for illustrations and photographs/ related facts) may help relaxing that grid.
•Making the folios a few points larger and bringing half way to the bottom margin (slilghtly cropping them) can work to your advantage by adding weight thus anchoring the page.

Keep up the good work.
/A.

I only took a quick glace but you definitly do not need to hyphenate the pull quote on the 2nd page of the pdf. You could drop it down to the next line and still keep a really nice look. Considering that it won't take you forever to do I'd hyphenate manually on all the pull quotes in future. They (the pull quotes) will only be a few lines so it will be a matter of minutes to manually hyphenate and the whole thing will look so much nicer.

Okay... this is it... the mag is done. I'm going to paste here the article pages so you can take a look at the results.

http://web.njit.edu/~sr77/

As always, click on PDF's.

Thanks all for your comments. You have no idea how much you've helped me out.

macgirl

Good strong job, congratulations.
Tim

Thanks, Tim. :)

Wow. I'm impressed with the progression. Great work!