It's tricky not to get too cliche for the first (Amerind) face, but I might suggest a non-joined, somewhat rough design, maybe just the right kind of italic - Quadraat's? Or maybe Claudium* or Cassandre**.

* http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/nobodoni/claudium-nb/
** http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/presencetypo/cassandre/

I think your second (Anglo/Franco) face shouldn't be rough - quite the contrary: I'd choose something cold and precise, but preferably also archaic - the recent Porchez Didots come to mind.

hhp

I know I know - it feels like I'm being to serious about it...but its hard not to be when I'm going 120pt+

So, I just changed my mind about Regula as well.

thought about Camden instead for all of its alternates and options for repeat characters...instead of all that repeated roughness that is suppose to be letterpress-y but instead looks digitized

might get razzed for using claudium on the first peoples stuff when the font wanted to be french in the first place?

Cassandre might work - least its not really based on anything at all.

thanks

Tanya, the vast majority of Amerindian peoples north of Mexico had no writing systems at the time of contact, so I suggest you give up trying to find something that conveys 'First Peoples': it would be just one more imposition of artificial, non-Native preconceptions on Native culture. Also, consider that Native peoples do not consider themselves to be a homogenous mass: they belong to different ethnic groups, tribes, civilisations, and to what, in post-contact parlance, they came to identify as different nations. So you should consider which Native people are referred to in the exhibit, and consider with whom they were in contact. Then you might well find that using a contemporary European typeface might be the most appropriate choice: one of the significant achievements of many colonised peoples around the world has been to take the script and language of the colonial power and to redeploy it with their own messages.

Here is a thought: in English language typography it is conventional to use italics for words in foreign languages. So you could play on the accepted conventions of the people attending the exhibit, and put the messages of Native peoples in roman type -- i.e. make it the norm -- and the European text in italics.

Tanya,

a good specimen book of handwritten scripts from the pre letter press time is the PROBA CENTUM SCRIPTURARUM from Leonhard Wagner from the early 1600 century. The German Insel Verlag has printed a very nice facsimile in the 70`s. Every good typographic university library should have a sample of it.

Sadly I don�t know a good digital typeface touching the spirit of these scripts.

In general a good calligrapher should be able to write something more authentic. He can use roman versals, rotunda, textura and of course antiqua letter forms.

ps. Maybe I misinterpreted this thread - you look for letters of the native peoples? In this case you have to use native symbols - but this way could lead into a trivial, trashy, common thing.

Tanya:
I think you have to do an end run around this. Why not use Cartier? (The newer, "book" version from Agfa, not the older Compugraphic version.) It's Canadian, and works well as a display face.

Or, you could go for the sort of "alternate history" of Sebastian. It's beautiful and unexpected.

I know I can't truely represent the writing systems of the First Peoples (of North America...Upper Canada, US. Quebec, and all first peoples in those regions in existance through to 1812.) But I really do need something that would express some elements of their style ect, (not in a cheesy way, (I ain't talking snowcone type) and yes, trying desperately not to be artificial, I can go very very subtle) and maybe a handwritten face isin't the greatest idea...hmm

I got close proximity and comparison going on in the content between First Peoples and the French and have to consider that its all written in the 1st person.

The typographical style and faces of this whole project follows through chronologically from the section I'm working on (beginning) all the way to present day (which I'm not really working on) This idea was already established long ago and I'm finding that I got hit with the hardest section...mine should follow the rest of the place considering its the first section the public will travel, grr

doing the italic/roman thing per culture is interesting I'd love to attempt something experimental but even if I could get away with it and break the typo/history theme of text, there are still many levels of text heiarchy of which will need proper formatting or the curators and editors would have my head. If editors decide to use italic for italic reasons and then Euro is italic too, things might get confusing.

So, YES...if there were a font that was created by someone of native background at least from the 1800s or a modern face that showed influence from the archives that followed latin characters I'd be all over it...but my search bore no results...would be super happy if you or someone could suggest one? and yes, I need a soft copy.

Update: I think I might have a replacement through Nick Shinn that maybe more appropriate...we'll see. Extra super nice of him to suggest considering its not released..so I won't talk about it more until he does.

Still to hear any other comment on this would be great. Its a typographical nightmare right now.

How will the type be reproduced? Could you hand letter the native stuff? That would emphasise the difference between the manual and the mechanical as characteristic of the two civilisations.

I suppose I could, but really wouldn't want to attempt it. A) I'd be chicken. B) time contraints.
C) I'd need a refill of Adivan

alot is printed large format, some reconstructions (wood, stone) some vinyl cut, some 3D, some etched on glass. ect. ect. I'm not involved in the reproduction but I havto suggest the means.

but you got me thinking...if I did hand letter it myself, then I'd probably get to play with real material and smooze with the carpenters. hmmm

unfortunately - its not on my contract.

Tanya, go the opposite way and use a neutral type with no context with the past and use symbols of the ethnic people around the text and allow the written word carry the message. I live in Manhattan and go to the Metropolitian Museum of Art all the time and this is the approach they would take. Dan

I've been involved with Native American publications since the late 80s.

Since there is no true Native type free from European influence, you should concentrate on good design choices for any historical museum exhibit. The Native and European text should feel equal. Any self-conscious treatment of the Native languages will get you no closer to a true Native typography, and may appear to some to be condescending and racist. So, handwritten, distressed, or otherwise quirky fonts should be ruled out unless you are also using them for the French/English.

I agree with John Hudson about trying italic & roman to differentiate between the cultures. The odd word or two needing to be "italicized" in blocks of italic text should be set in roman. If you weren't tied to using period faces, a carefully selected serif / sans serif combination would work well. Again, nothing quirky.

There's such a wide variety of styles in Native American art. I wish we could see the exhibits you are designing for.

all the display faces for my part, be it english, french or to native context are distressed or will look antiqued.

See, if we dumb this down - I wonder if the general public would understand and see the difference in italic use for native content. When things like native-esque styled Olympic icons, and the Aboriginal Television network logo are going, the public gets it, and nobody's said they were condescending.

See, I was thinking the other way around. My opinion was that if the rest of the place has matching period faces and mine dosen't that that would be condescending to the point where some might suggest there was little to no understanding or consideration of their styles. By using a European face we are showing that their words are only heard through our voice, and that's especially bad when its written in the 1st person.

This is why I thought of using a handwritten face, because it would show a difference in lifestyles at least - one that had machines, has type, letterpress ect....and one that used their hands. But in a hand written face....it would have to be free of any obivous Euro flourishes, and cursive forms

I'll consult the team and ask what they think about the italic/roman thing.

Tanya, I would be lured neither by the charms of Neutrality nor those of Political Correctness.
Use your design sense and your heart, and you'll be OK.

hhp

design sense said listen to your peers - of which majority was going for Neutrality.

heart said listen to your peers - they've been around longer than you.

team said - screw designery theme, go for least amount of backlash and widely accepted view. Somehow we've ended up with Trajan or P22Monet for First Peoples and Regula Antiqua for the Euros (chosen by the higher powers that be and against my suggestion for Camden)

So, its all cleared and out of my hands now. Thanks guys for helping out - voices of reason helped shape these decisions and I got a good lesson about my own views of political correctness

George - Project dosen't get produced and open to the public until late 2004, if your around Ottawa, Canada, then you'll most likely know which one it is. - I can't really name/announce it...sorry.

Thanks to those of you who mailed off-list too. Plenty might still change.
-t

The problem with trying to find an authentic "Native style" is that there is none. Even if public opinion isn't a concern, any attempt to find one is likely to be contrived. It's not a matter of political correctness. Even if someone is overly sensitive to what Natives will think, it'll still end up "fake" if they try too hard to find something Native.

So, the real problem for this museum exhibit is finding two clearly contrasting faces which go well together and fit the time period covered. The Native aspect is a bit of a red herring.

I was overreacting a bit when I suggested staying away from handwritten forms. It's just that I've seen people choose primitive looking styles when trying to "be native". In general, the writing samples I've seen from literate Natives are in the handwriting style of their era. Cursives are not unauthentic. I have seen child-like writing from barely literate Natives, but it is no different than what you would see from poorly educated Euro-Americans from the same era.

The fact that there is no historic Amerind typographic style
could be used as a positive. Graphic design doesn't have to be so
literal, and often when it is it sucks (as you imply). If Tanya can just
"distill" the cultural essence of their culture and find a font (of really
any lineage) that expresses it somehow, that's great.

hhp

well of course the Euros would have some poor writting skills too. I was talking about the big picture and representing the "communication" logistics of an entire culture.

Basic facts: Euros having the printing press in full action versus the first peoples who communicate with hand written (carved what-have-you) As well, considering we're talking "First Peoples" and the very first interactions between Euros and natives - I don't think that cursive hand writting is what happened next...basic letterforms, sticks and circles perhaps.

Either way I sometimes think its strange that we've become so politically correct that no one thinks it would be proper to use those faces that we may refer to as child-like or whimsical letterforms for the first peoples when that's excatly what they probably looked like wihen the first colonized groups tried to learn how to write latin characters.

And if we want to show a written piece that's more evolved than that, we call it cheesy and perhaps offensive to show any latin form that tries to give back any teeny bit of credence.

I can see where if it were about preserving a culture how it would be offensive, but this is about the colonization of north america - The first nations getting their rights and lands back happens in *this* century not 14-1500s.

Is being politically correct really just trying to hide facts of what was done in order to promote happy origins all over? Is it about saving confusion among the idiots who can't see what the problems were.

I would never think that examples of Native writting in latin forms had any basis to exist per say, but it was part of an evolution...You can't ignore that it did happen. Some how, some way - the first peoples did learn to write in english and french language using latin forms. There were some steps before perfecting the latin forms that I would suspect had lingering elements of various native structures - but I guess its offensive to represent those steps and see any kind of merge?

a modern (latin) face with native elements (considering evolution worked the other way around): wouldn't the resulting kitch be the highest form of flattery, and show a very respectful appreciation ,...without all the PC crap, if you look at it this way the recipients could be humbled by such attempt. Perhaps we all hate the idea simply because we see it as an assumption of style, when we are the style masters.

anyway - that's my tangent of the day.