I got the same looking for Fountain. Got Eric Sans from the book.

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/fountain/eric-sans/

I dont think its shocking that they're selling the Indie Fonts 2 CD/Book and are referencing fonts in it, but it is kinda shocking that you can testdrive the font on the site and yet they're not asked your permission to do so.

Question is, is it against your license agreement, and/or the agreement that you had with Indie Fonts producers?

The other issue is that it is a breach of my agreement with the fonts designer.

My guess is that MyFonts asked IndieFonts for permission to preview, and they were given the OK.

Note that different fount houses have different previewing arrangements.

Chances are if you complain they'll accomodate you.
But don't: previewing has huge benefits and minimal drawbacks.

hhp

If you click through, they are selling the Indie Fonts book, which contains the font, not the font all by itself, so technically they don't appear to have done anything illegal with regards to licence agreements

You're right, it is cheeky.
And it is misleading, because it infers that the price of the font is $39.95, and some people who don't click through will assume this is the case, and that MyFonts distributes Union Fonts.

I wouldn't say it was shocking, rather that they have tried to do some clever marketing but outsmarted themselves. Also, it was easier to use their standard format, rather than prepare a special piece of artwork. I'm sure if you ask them, they will do the right thing -- either de-list the font, or prepare the special file that explains that the font is available bundled with Indie Fonts.

On the upside, if MyFonts customers do "buy" HotMetal as part of IndieFonts, they also get to see all the other Union Fonts specimens in the book.

MyFonts sells Emigre.
The fonts they don't sell (like Adobe) they show a very simple preview and even point to the source.

Jim, this is probably just another typical mismatch between "cascading" agreements. Did you specify in your IndieFonts agreement that the fonts cannot be previewed anywhere besides the book? Don't assume you've been somehow tricked.

hhp

I have no problem with it, I just feel they should've asked before. Can't remember the agreement with P22 but I think it's just the individual license agreement for each foundry that is in the works.

Is listing foundries they have no dealing with is wrong?

If Coke put Pepsi in the meta tags on there website, would that be unfair competition...

This is an interesting issue. As the buck stops here guy with Indie Fonts, I would like to chime in. I think partially due to my personal admiration of how MyFonts has treated us, I made a decision to allow MyFonts to distribute the Indie fonts books. The entire Indie Fonts project was intended as co-operative distribution vehicle. The individual showings of each font from the Indie Fonts CDs are simply specific details from the book. The purchaser is getting the same end product (a book and a CD) as if they bought it in a Barnes and Noble. There is no download of the Indie fonts on Myfonts or anywhere else. MyFonts is one of the many places people can buy Indie Fonts. I never imagined that anyone would have a problem getting more exposure for their foundry and type designs. Our agreement with each foundry was very basic yet very much concerned with promoting the foundries and not dictating how they distribute their fonts. One of the many goals of the Indie Fonts books was to facilitate exposure of the participants fonts to people who might not otherwise see them. I did not see the need to get permission from the 35 foundries included in the 2 books and dreaded the idea of another group emailing that only half of the participants would respond to. Yes it is a bit odd to see the price of the end product when you are looking at the detail (see the P22 extras sampler on MyFonts and it's bargain price). Unfair competition?...I don�t see this as the case at all. Do you think having the Union fonts name popping up on Amazon would be a bad thing?
RK

>If Coke put Pepsi in the meta tags on there
>website, would that be unfair competition...

In fact, this issue of meta tag usage has been cause for legal action in some cases.

Search Engine Watch: Meta Tag Lawsuits
http://searchenginewatch.com/resources/print.php/34791_2156551

I personally have no issue with sites mentioning or linking to products they don't normally represent, providing they are displaying accurate contact information for the owner or foundry in question and that proper copyright or trademark attributions are in place.

Richard

It's not about us being listed because of Indie Fonts (which is a great book, and has done us a lot of good) it's totally the fact that MyFonts list foundries which have nothing to do with them.

Put it this way, if I listed Emigre or Fountain fonts on Union without speaking to them about it, would that be wrong?

I think my visitor numbers may go up.

Richard:
But Union is responsible to its designers. If even one of them has a problem with the preview ability on MyFonts (even if I for one think it's great), then there's a mismatch between one agreement and another (in this case subsequent) one. It's really just a matter of miscommunicating details, so nobody should feel outraged. But if a given font designer can point to an original agreement that prevents previewing (or even if he can show he was tricked into a preview allowance) then the preview needs to be pulled, one way or another.

On the other hand, forbidding plain linking (or even static renderings from legally-owned fonts) is not viable.

Jim:
If your site just says Emigre fonts exist (like MyFonts does with Adobe for example) then it's just dandy.

hhp

> if I listed Emigre or Fountain fonts on Union without speaking to them about it, would that be wrong?


If you sold a publication that included Emigre or Fountain fonts, you should not have to clear it with them as to every outlet that also sold the book. It would be wrong to NOT list who and what was in the publication.

I agree with everything you say Richard. I think what Jim is opposed is the fact that the way it's displayed it looks like his fonts are sold through myfonts.

It looks a bit sneeky - I must agree. But I also think it's a good thing, since it draws attention to the book and the foundry.

Just to clarify, my issue really is that MyFonts lists foundries in this way, I have no issue with Indie Fonts.

When you say "in this way", are you referring to the possible appearance that the fonts are available through MyFonts? Well, they are! Just not as downloads. And you can't not have an issue with IndieFonts, because that's how the fonts ended up on MyFonts.

hhp

> Well, they are!

Sorry, they're not - I got confused.

But I still think:
1) It's legal. And if you think it's unethical, I'd be surprised if they don't accomodate you.
2) The "worst" that can happen is users realize they have to buy the stuff elsewhere. Do you think people who see your fonts on MyFonts become less likely to buy them?

And my IndieFonts point stands: the main problem is that your agreement with them seems to be a subset of your designers' agreement with you.

hhp

Hey, wait a second: when did Adobe sign with MyFonts?
http://www.myfonts.com/browse/foundry/adobe/
Cool.

hhp

We were not aware of any limitations in displaying fonts included with the books. I think what can be done is some sort of clarification at MyFonts regarding the level of representation of foundries that MyFonts does not already have an existing agreement with.

...and for those who are uncomforatble with the test drive feature, I am sure it can be removed.

On the myfonts.com page with the full showing of GarageFonts' Sinsation it says "MyFonts.com sells Sinsation by agreement with P-Type Publications." Well there is no agreement for them to sell Sinsation. What's up with that?

I think the issue can be solved with the addition of these lines. This font is part of the Indie 2 Book type samples. Indie 2 Book can be bought through MyFonts for $39.95.

We are in the process of writng something very much to the effect of Daniel's suggestion. It's all fixable...if anyone needs to contact me directly, please do so.

I also need to chime in here. I wanted to add to what Richard says about how we have been marketing the Indie Fonts books at MyFonts.

Internally, we realized that while some customers will be turned on by the books, others will be more so by the accompanying CD. The disks themselves, each containing dozens of fonts, will certainly appear as great value to many customers - as long as they can examine the fonts. (Although the CD is not much marketed by others selling Indie Fonts, this was no reason to avoid such marketing. Those of you who saw last week's newsletter will have seen this is exactly how we marketed it to our customers.)

To reply to Nick ("it was easier to use their standard format, rather than prepare a special piece of artwork"), I have to say I don't see the problem - if we have a technology that displays fonts in a manner that allows comparisons, then why would we not use it? Custom artwork and texts too, if there's time & resources: so we added several photos of the books, wrote articles about the books from scratch, and posted links to reviews and more pictures.

Having said all that, I realize we were probably remiss in not checking it was acceptable for customers to use Test Drive on all these fonts: we're now checking to see with the relevant foundries which preview mode they would like to use on their fonts. Also, in response to those who note that our presentation seemed to imply MyFonts had a direct relationship with certain foundries, we just added a paragraph to clarify sources: e.g. "MyFonts.com sells HOTMETAL by agreement with P-Type Publications". Ralph notes this is still not ideal - we are working with Rich Kegler on this wording, and the mentions of font price.

Some miscellaneous corrections from earlier in this thread. Yes, we do have a contract with Emigre to sell their fonts. To recorrect Hrant's self-correction, we *are* offering a font from Union Fonts (not for download), thanks to its presence on IF2 and our contract with P-Type. No, we don't sell Adobe fonts directly, but sell many Adobe fonts thanks to our contract with Linotype.

BTW please contact me at lorp _at_ myfonts.com if you want to write directly, or foundrysupport _at_ myfonts.com for the whole team.

Yeah, you should check out some of the real bastards out there.

hhp

MyFonts is a major distributor of mine, and like many foundries who were left in the lurch when Makambo folded, where would I be without them?

Sure, I'm critical of them occasionally -- they are always trying new stuff and don't always get it exactly right first time. And as a major presence that aspires to be an industry resource, rather more than just another distributor, they should expect a little more heat.

In their defence, Jim, sure it could be mistakenly construed that they are a Union distributor, but they have taken immediate steps to lessen that impression, and they also have a link to your site -- something that other distributors (eg Fonts.com, FontShop, Veer) do not provide online, even for their bona fide suppliers!

Next up Laurence, can you fix the code so that it doesn't create grammar like "an Union font" or "contains one fonts"? ;-)

Ok, fixed the first typo - you'll have to help me find instances of the second... (off-list!)