A similar, previous discussion here: http://typophile.com/node/15647.

Okay first of all you aren't buying a font. Its a license. Please read the End Users Agreement. The license is a one time cost and comparing that to a novel that cost a lot less per unit but sells a lot more units and in the end might make a lot more money.

This is an old, old discussion. This boss of yours has made up his mind and is a cheapskate. You might want to save your effort at trying to convince him. His resistance to spending money on useful tools is a symptom of a bigger problem. Someone who is a business advisor should be talking to him about how he runs the business. Design isn't some kind of dollars/kilos proposition; the work and the ideas give value to the product. I'm surprised he is so frightened of budgeting even modest amounts to support his business.

The novel is an end product that can't be repurposed infinitely for use in a million other ways. The type family is a TOOL that can be used for many, many purposes including logos, magazines, etc. A little like a laser printer. If your office gets a new laser printer or a new digital camera, who pays for it? Does your boss then have to reduce your pay because profit is lower? I think not. That's not business anymore. Tools, especially the proper ones, are part of running a business. If your boss really wants you to do "cutting edge" work, then he should have the clients pay for new fonts, or at least partial costs. Since you will use the fonts a lot over the years, each client can pay a small amount of the cost, like how large equipment gets expensed over several years.

Where does this person think Garamond, Helvetica, Caslon and Gill Sans came from?

"A book is a book is a book. But a good plate of spaghetti is another thing"
-Neapolitan proverb

The font costs more than a book because the font is a tool that can increase your billings. The font will enable your boss and you to perhaps design in a more contemporary style and hence, charge more for your work.

It reminds me of a song from the end of the Vietnam error. I came home from Vietnam and I saw my wife with a new baby boy Benny and when I asked her where did Benny come from she said "Bennys from heaven" (Sung to Pennys from Heaven). "Benny must be from heaven because he sure isn't from me". Hey Garamond, Helvetica, Caslon and Gill came from heaven.

> Don't shoot me!

OK. Where's your boss?

Just as we must license/purchase software, we must license/purchase fonts. One thing you boss is missing, and has been mentioned already, is the fact that once you license this typeface family you will have it to use again and again ... just like any other software/tool. It is a difficult thing to have a boss like yours. I feel for you.

How many typefaces/weights come with the package? What is the math per typeface?

You should give him numbers for the cost of type back in the day compared to today. I'm sure it would blow him away. Maybe convincing. Make the human connection too. Think about all the poor type designers starving on the street.

If you boss doesn't want to pay for the font license, find someone who already owns a license and pay that person to do the typesetting for you. This is how it always used to be done: the design company spec'd the job and the typesetter set it. It remains an option.

In the meantime, Sebastien, I suggest typesetting your CV and looking for another employer.

On your next design comp use your own handwriting. It will either:

a) Upset him because you're being insubordinate (or cheeky, if you are in the UK).
b) Delight him because you're being so frugal.
c) Cause him to reflect on what nice handwriting you have.

And of course it will:
d) Give you some fresh visuals to work with.
e) Make you feel better that you're not using unlicensed fonts.

Best of luck. I would give up on the boss... This employer is not helping you do your best work, nor is he helping his clients. Finding another employer is your next best step.

[Edit: Geez, that last bit reads like some lame horoscope. Sorry for that. Cheers.]

Finding another employer is your next best step.

This about sums it up in an ideal world. :-)

It's perplexing and frustrating when people of certain mind set believe there is NO and should be NO VALUE associated with type, whether it be voiced by the general public, an unmovable business owner, and, oh yes... even graphic designers!

Hours earlier today I fired back volleys to a designer who felt (or was feigning to feel) that ALL FONTS should be available for FREE!
Unbelievable. So I reproached him with basic logic and upheld the values of intellectual property, other creatives who make money for what the do, etc.

But as Carl mentioned above, at a certain point it's not worth the effort. If these people pay sh*t for effort, then they can eat sh*t as well. Deep down, some people enjoy being thieves.

Excerpted from DesignTalkBoard.com, a small design forum I haunt to understand different segments of our "type buying" public:

Re: free fonts
« Reply to this topic #21 on: 9 Jan 06 » by JianSabu
Quote from: jchrome on 8 Jan 06
I think all fonts should be free, but that's just my .02 - I don't expect many to agree with that.

In that case, why shouldn't a logo design using only type, or producing prepress files for a newsletter be offered free to a client as well?

Do you really think your time and creativity is any more valuable than a type designer's? How about using photography or calligraphy in your graphic design project... should you be able to use the photographer's or calligrapher's work in your project for free?

The problem concerning the "value" of fonts (a software file or mechanical object that can be used to produce type output) is that since the advent of "desktop publishing" and personal computers that are used for creating graphical files, fonts have been made readily available (bundled with the computer or bundled with software packages such as Adobe's "InDesign").

Also, the software tools to produce usable font files are also readily available and much easier to use than when the first PostScript fonts were produced for the Macintosh. Novice and amatuer "type designers" generally distribute their type fonts for free or on a shareware basis while improving the quality of the outline data, spacing and kerning tables, so eventually they can meet the quality standards of font distributors like "MyFonts.com".

Another MAJOR problem is that a very well designed typeface by a well know type designer (like Matthew Carter or Ed Benguiat) can be easily copied nowadays (as with the music industry where song writers and performers work are constantly being ripped off). Just because fonts are easy to duplicate, slightly modified and re-issued doesn't make the original LESS VALUABLE, just like music or movies.

There really isn't any argument or justification for thinking ALL FONTS should be free, anymore than ALL MUSIC or MOVIES should be available for free just because you can download it (from an illegal source). I agree that it is very hard for most people to recognize if a typeface is from an original or licensed source as opposed to a non-licensed rip-off. That's why some of us try to be helpful by suggesting reputable sources for Free and Shareware fonts listed earlier in this thread.

Freeware and shareware are fine and OK, so if you don't want to pay for fonts stick to the reputable distributors PLEASE. Thank you.

Norbert

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Re: free fonts
« Reply to this topic #22 on: 10 Jan 06 » by jchrome
Quote from: JianSabu on 9 Jan 06
Waaaaa! Waaaa!

Regretably I have neither the time to explain my position, nor the inclination. That is why my original statement ended with "that is my $.02 - I don't expect anyone to agree with me".

And yes, music and movies in encoded (lossy) formats should be free as well. The same goes for Open Source applications and Operating Systems. But I imagine forward-thinking sentiments such as those are light-years beyond you, padawan. =)

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Re: free fonts
« Reply to this topic #23 on: 10 Jan 06 » by JianSabu
Then you obviously don't believe in protection of intellectual property as you may not have any intellectual property to protect.

With that I will return to my mountain temple in Tibet, where I live in an alternate yet perfectly beautiful universe where no one steals another's idea. They all float free as collective knowledge.

Everything should be free! Fonts, rent, food, clothes, gas, airplane tickets, everything. When everything else is free, I'll offer my fonts for free. Until then...

Why does a family of fonts costs €429 when a novel only costs €20

Bundling.
If people had to buy the fonts they used, rather than get them free from Microsoft, Apple, and Adobe, with operating systems and layout applications, there would be a mass market for fonts.
In that case, a successful typeface might sell thousands, rather than hundreds, and independent foundries could afford to drop the price accordingly.

So, rather than benefit people like your boss, free bundled fonts have priced interesting new fonts out of his reach.

This boss of yours has made up his mind and is a cheapskate.

No, this boss of yours is a thief.
He has stolen other peoples’ intellectual property if he is using fonts without ever having paid a license for any of them. And he is selling the work he does with those stolen fonts for money, making him a double-faced crook at that. What if his clients didn’t pay him? Or told him that they can get free templates with their desktop publishing software, so why should they pay for graphic design?

I cannot believe we’re even seriously discussing such an issue of obvious criminal behaviour, of someone in our business ripping off his colleagues. This is not a poor student, nor an ignorant housewife. This is someone who makes money from selling intellectual property himself.

Go wipe the data off all his hard drives and get another job.

Kudo's to Erik

http://www.fast.org.uk/

I don't know if there is a similar body that covers all EU countries or one specific to Belgium, if there is you could try them just prior to following most* of Erik's advice.

* leave the evidence

Tim

Below is an extract from the FAST site
Ignore Font Licensing At Your Peril
Warning issued by the Federation Against Software Theft and font foundries

Avoiding font licence management issues can incur serious legal implications, according to the Federation Against Software Theft's (The Federation) Font Software Group (FSG). If an organisation's software audit excludes fonts then it may not be fully compliant and if that is the case that organisation faces legal liability.

Even if an audit does include fonts then on-going compliance cannot be guaranteed: the ease with which fonts can be downloaded or copied means regular auditing is essential.

John Lovelock, Director General of The Federation, said: "What companies forget is that fonts are supplied under terms (of the software application licence) For instance, most fonts are licensed for installation on five workstations, but like application software some are only allowed to be installed on one workstation. If companies are not considering the number of users that need the font when purchasing they are likely to be underlicensed.
Also, many companies do not realise that permitted use can vary from font to font, even in major operating systems. Choosing a font with restricted usage terms can spell trouble.

ìThis is a huge issue, but most corporates are unaware that it even exists. Corporate end users must understand the gravity of font software theft,î he added.

"Corporate directors be warned ñ to achieve software compliance the issue of fonts cannot be ignored. In our experience most organisations are not even aware that fonts have to be audited in exactly the same way as other software."

Why does a family of fonts costs €429 when a novel only costs €20

Potential copies sold and the competitive market. His comparison is irrelevant. If there were a few hundred novelists in the world, only a handful of which were writing decent novels that sold only a few hundred copies, they'd be priced differently. The time it takes to make them is irrelevant. How long does it take him to design a brochure? How much does he make on it?

I agree with Erik. I can't believe a designer at that level would behave that way, legally or ethically. Don't let it go. Maybe not with this project, but in general. Also, if he's emailed you about this, then he's created a record of illegal activities on his own server.

The FAST.org organization brings to mind ASCAP, which monitors the playing of recorded songs, and insures that royalties are collected and paid to song writers and publishers. They do this by sampling of radio stations etc.

Would it be worth the while for the large founderies such as Adobe, Linotype, Monotype, Fontfont, etc., joined by others, to establish a similar organization, and hire one or two two people to randomly check advertising etc. and follow up to see that fonts have been properly licensed?

Or such an organization might be created by ATypI, with charges to founderies according to size to fund the (small) staff. ASCAP is I believe supported by membership fees of both individual songwriters and publishers. An independent organization might also be possible. Of course, the number involved in the music industry is in the hundreds of thousands, rather than thousands, so it would be on a different scale.

The point is that if advertising and other firms know there is a random check going on, and possible embarassment or even prosecution, then even if the chances of being caught are small, it might greatly increase the level of compliance with EULAs.

My observation is that firms are dead scared of being involved in lawsuits, so the motivating influence of the organization and its first prosecution of a corporate miscreant might be huge, and make a significant dent in piracy.

I know that the effort to have control of foundries stealing from each other flopped long ago, with the infamous incident of the blatent piracy and resale of Hermann Zapf's Palatino, but this would be different. An effort not at policing one another, but at catching and (rarely) prosecuting user font pirates. Of course this might indirectly put pressure on foundries--or even directly if the organization includes monitoring these.

Has this idea been explored by any foundry, or ATypI or other type organization?

Maybe and its only a maybe if you broke down the cost of the license per weight, it might seem more reasonable to your boss. If you pose it like buying a bottle of wine, well thats expensive, but when its posed as a case of wine, well thats reasonable. This is just a tactic you might take.

William,
This is from Monotype's site –
(I don't know whether they have a detection operation, maybe somebody who works for one of the foundries knows, but a well advertised operation with one or two high profile prosecutions would certainly give some MDs cause for consideration.)

The Federation Against Software Theft operates a Font Software Group which strives to raise awareness of fonts as intellectual property and licensable software.

The group offers free, impartial information and advice to individuals, companies and organisations on the subject of font licensing including risk assessment.

Members

Creative Publishing Solutions
Compliant UK
Dalton Maag
Device Fonts
Font Bureau
Fontsmith
Fontware
ITC
Jeremy Tankard Designs Ltd.
Monotype
Neufville Digital

Tim

What kind of design agency doesn't budget for design tools like typography?

Seems like it might be time to shop the ol' resume around ;o)

Another option, have the client buy the typeface. That won't help you with getting more faces, but at least you've gotten a better product to the client.

"Would it be worth the while for the large founderies such as Adobe, Linotype, Monotype, Fontfont, etc., joined by others, to establish a similar organization, and hire one or two two people to randomly check advertising etc. and follow up to see that fonts have been properly licensed?"

I'd say no. Smells an awful lot like RIAA type thinking. Treating your potential customers as guilty until proven innocent is a risky business model and can often destroy any sympathety you might have had.

I'd say price your product so it's sellable and give the end user a license that appeals to them. Ignore the illegal copies and focus on the ones people pay for. Those are your customers. Spend your efforts on catering to them.

"The point is that if advertising and other firms know there is a random check going on, and possible embarassment or even prosecution, then even if the chances of being caught are small, it might greatly increase the level of compliance with EULAs."

Has RIAA lawsuites decreased file sharing? Have sappy 'please don't steal this movie' ads decreased asian DVD piracy? Have software registration hoops stopped casual software piracy? Have any of these tactics costs these industries money to implement? ;o)

>Has RIAA lawsuites decreased file sharing?

I don't know--it may be that it has had some success. But the RIAA is not the analogous organization; it is ASCAP, which does work in getting songwriters paid royalties, so far as I know. (There is another similar organization, I believe, BMI). RIAA's questionable effectiveness is going after those who file share without making money from it, whereas ASCAP deals exclusively with businesses. It's a different model. What I am suggesting would not be going after scrapbookers who use pirated fonts, but rather businesses who make money from using them. This is a different animal.

I got this idea because of timd's information about the FAST organization, and Yves Peters' talk at TypCon laying out his courageous detective work on some corporate piracy issues.

While I would agree with Erik if Sebastien's company is indeed using pirated fonts, this may not be the case. I have acquired a substantial library of "old font classics" (at no cost) over the past 15 years -- quite enough to run a design practice -- merely by licensing and upgrading the major tools of the trade, Adobe's Photoshop, Illustrator, and more recently InDesign.

We don't have an ASCAP kind of organization in the type business.
Organizations such as ATypI and SOTA do not fully represent the interests of type designers and independent foundries, because their boards represent a variety of stakeholders, including those whose financial interests in fonts are quite different -- eg Microsoft, Adobe, and Apple, the font bundlers.

I can only hope that increased knowledge on type and typographic issues helps change attitudes.

I *used to* work at a design firm that was not unlike Sebastien's -- there was a big server from which fonts were used, but no one was really ever sure where that type came from. Some designers would join the firm for a time, bring their own fonts, and then leave them behind when they quit. I spent a fair amount of time trying to audit the server and determine what files were legit, but it was too difficult.

In the end, the company opted to back up the fonts (should they been needed for reprinting past projects), wipe the drive, and purchase the Adobe collection -- providing them with all the nice, safe classics.

The flip side was that for a long time afterward, it was felt by management that there were now enough legit fonts for the design staff to use that there was no future budget for type built into projects going forward. And so many, many a project relied on that Adobe library, and for all I know, they still do.

Not the most popular suggestion, I'm sure, but Sebastian might start instead trying to convince his boss to purchase a small type collection of classics as this company did, and then try to build a type budget into future projects.

>their boards represent a variety of stakeholders, including those whose financial interests in fonts are quite different

Well ASCAP has both publishers and composers in it. I suppose that is because both have royalties to split from the same broadcast event. In this respect it seems to me type designers and foundries are in a similar situation.

Microsoft doesn't sell fonts, so they wouldn't be a logical part of such an organization. Adobe does bundle, but they sell a lot of other fonts, so I don't see why their interest would be at all opposed to a monitor of publications to see that font rights are being observed.

Of course, the big difference from ASCAP is that neither foundries nor designers are paid for each public use of their work, so the monitoring will be to catch piracy rather than insure correct payment for each use.

A real conflict might arise if the foundries were also magazine publishers or ad agencies or such, but this is not the case.

So it still seems to me so far a viable idea, if the finances of it seem good to those with the most money and most to gain, namely the larger foundries.

I heard Bruno Steinhardt of Linotype at Typotechnica saying piracy was a major issue facing the industry, and above we see Erik Spiekermann of Fontfont and Fontshop also passionate about the issue. So do they think it is worth 'putting their money where their mouth is?' Small foundries could join for less and have use of their fonts also monitored.