I don't think this is so bad. But anybody doing it for him should charge something.

hhp

Could be the rebirth of the typesetting industry. :-) I think Photo-Lettering used to charge $10 per word.

HHP, Mark good ideas, but I think this guy doesn't want to pay anything. Its the free lunch thing.

Mark, try $10-30 a word. Depending on the royalty agreement for each design.

Why doesn't someone trace the text out in pencil, and fax it to him. That's an outline isn't it?

You know he posted another request, the same thing. He called himself Cheeky. I like James idea. I can't figure out wiether he's just cheep or really doesn't understand how silly his request is.

There was a time when URW++ had a form where you could set
a sentence (up to a certain number of characters) in any of their
faces and they would send it to you by email as an EPS. For free.

They still have it, now they charge 5 or 10 euros for it.
And Letterror picked up on that too.

But that stuff only works for short display settings.

hhp

Maybe, but I still think it's a great solution, comparable
to Apple's new "99

From Ian's site:
"If you are interested in purchasing any of my work
then please feel free to contact me via e-mail."

Quite rich from somebody who's expecting to get his
typesetting for free. :/

Yves, do you think this guy is uneducated or just a jerk. I buy iTunes, I know the artist will get royalities and I don't have to have a high pressure sales enviroment. Sales people in Manhattan can get pushy. Dan

> I don't think this is so bad. But anybody doing it for
him should charge something.

But isn't that like misusing your license to make money?

For example, I think copying music (CD to CD quality)
for personal use is already bad enough, but to make
multiple copies and sell them is plain evil IMO. You use
somebody else's work to make money for yourself. Now
THAT's stealing.

> I buy iTunes, I know the artist will get royalties and
I don't have to have a high pressure sales enviroment.

Nothing wrong with that I guess.

> Yves, do you think this guy is uneducated or just a jerk.

Difficult to make out from his post. It could be he simply
doesn't have a clue, but he might as well be a leech.

> But isn't that like misusing your license to make money?

Not at all - it's [generally] within the license. More importantly,
I actually think it's a great way to [indirectly] encourage font sales.

hhp

They still have it, now they charge 5 or 10 euros for it.

Yes, but

But isn't that like misusing your license to make money?

What's ironic is that's how the whole typesetting industry
used to be set up. You would buy a font from a foundry and
then people would pay you to set words with it. Of course,
nowadays anyone with a computer is in effect a typesetter
and is supposed to buy their own fonts when they need
something typeset.

Mark, the problem goes deeper anyone with a computer now can create words with type but they aren't typographers. Programs like Quark just made it worse. What passes for letterspacing,kerning, linespacing and color is just a joke. I don't have a solution, but I don't need a weatherman to tell me its raining.

Well, there's a difference between a typesetter and
a typographer. Anyway, I didn't say it was a
good thing that everyone's a typesetter now. :-)

You, people, are so pathetic. I never thought I would say this, but you do really have your heads high up your asses. Just listen to yourselves ... Can you think it terms of anything other than money?

Hi Sergej, do you mind answering a few questions?
What do you do for a living?

Sergej's right -- I mean, you type designers are already rolling in money, living as you do in gaudy (not to say goudy) mansions, wearing those ostentatious gold chains and riding in limos. Isn't it enough that you have beautiful groupies hanging on your every stroke and pixel? You have to bilk us peons out of our hard-earned cash as well? The nerve.

Mr. Malinovski, when you decide to barge in here and
insult us, you might at least have the courtesy to
reply when we're trying to follow up on your hair-
brained accusations. Don't try to tell me you're afraid
of us vile money-grabbing greedy type-hoarders.


P.S. Is this your idea of funny?

Phew. Weasel.

> Can you think it terms of anything other than money?

That's just plain nuts.

hhp

Oops, I just realized I was mixing up type designers and rap stars. Damn, I always make that mistake.

Lord forgive anyone who has intellectual property should make a living not just the greedy type designers.

>intellectual property

Doesn't that include texts ? Plenty of people make serious money from writing.

M.

And plenty of people don't make any money at all. Considering average incomes, I suppose you're right, Daniel.

M.

Matha, please call me Dan or Danny, the only people who call me Daniel are my doctor as in "Daniel, Daniel, Daniel is that you again" after I've had a bike crash or a running injury or my girlfriend when she is really mad at me, thanks.

It includes text. People making money from thinking...
what a scam! Matha, your remark reminded me of
this little gem.

Sorry Dan.

Daniel is my middle name so I tend not to use the short form.

M.D.S.

If someone did provide the 'typesetting service' as a pro bono design job, would it be as reprehensible? What if his typographer friend (who owns the face) did if for him?

I'm not defending Cheeky, sounds like a cheapskate to me, but it's an interesting ethical/ legal problem.

> If someone did provide the 'typesetting service' as
a pro bono design job, would it be as reprehensible?

I don't think anyone can force you to charge money for
your work, so I guess this doesn't make any difference.
If providing typesetting for third parties doesn't infringe
the user's license to the font, then it doesn't matter
if you're getting paid or not for providing that service.

Yves, did that guy Sergej ever respond to your request for a debate?

Sorry for a late reply, guys, but I had my reasons. I'm no goddamn weasel.

I never wanted to have a long-winded discussion about all this shite because the absurdity in that only makes me more disappointed in you. The absurdity is in the fact that it would take you five minutes to help a stranger who politely asked for help if you were able to provide him with the outline, but instead you choose to use your "valuable" time on talking out of your asses. This is what prompted me to write the original comment in the first place, so absurdity laughs me in the face when I see you continuing being totally clueless.

I do mind answering a few questions for two reasons. First of all, no one answered, or even tried to answer my question, so I don't feel like answering yours. Second, I've heard "What do you do for a living?" argument a hundred thousand times before and you don't have to waste your time convincing me that the world revolves around money -- I know that already, and I do need money to eat and be able to talk to you.

By asking me about what I do for a living, you are only proving my point. You think about money and even want to talk to me about money. Well then, why the fück don't you just say it? I mean, if you see nothing wrong with measuring everything with money, why don't you just stay cool and answer my question like this: No, I can't think in terms of anything other than money. Than we would agree and no one would get hurt. How about that, eh?

If you want to talk about money, go talk to Meredith -- she seems to be more than willing to put words into my mouth. If you ask me more question, I'm sure she'll be glad to answer them for me.

You don't have to call me mister to pretend to be polite when you aren't. I don't have the courtesy, but neither do you, so let's just cut the crap, shell we? I'm not insulting you on purpose, but you are being insulted by my honest opinion about you. You can change that opinion, if you wish to, or care -- it's mostly up to you.

I don't "barge" in here. What is this, some kind of small, snobbish, private cocktail party? Am I supposed to crawl or squeeze in here? This is a public forum were I chose to voice my goddamn honest opinion. If moderators feel like it, they are welcome to ban me from here. And by the way, if you weren't all singing to the same stupid tune, I probably wouldn't have my voiced opinion the way I did. Do you realise how cliquish you all sound?

My whole point, if you still haven't realised it, is that you should be nice to people around you when you can, when it doesn't really cost you anything. When was the last time you helped a old man on the street to carry a slightly heavy bag? I can argue that it does not take much to provide someone with an outline, if you have what it takes. If you can't help, or don't feel like it, just go by. I don't care whether you roll in the money or not, but when you start talking about charging money for five minutes of your time, you are making an arse out of yourselves. We are not talking about greed here, but arrogance.

I'll comment on the original post that started this thread: It's not illegal to make an outline of a typeface and share it with someone else, nor do I think there is anything ethically wrong with that. Comparing an outline of a few letters with a font sounds like a bad joke -- there is much more to a font than that. It's almost an insult to someone who actually has created more than just a few letter outlines. It's not bold to politely ask for free help as the guy did. If anything, it's daring, and I wish there were more daring guys like him.

To Yves: No, the typography section on my webpage is not my idea of being funny. In fact, I haven't written anything more boring than what you can read there. There are even some factual errors in there, like the claim of non-existence of system-wide font substitution in Win2000, but I'm too lazy to correct all that shite. On the other hand, I don't take myself too seriously, so you are welcome to laugh at my boring babble if you think it's funny.

(I don't understand -- if everyone disagrees with me, who the fück voted my first comment so high? Should I suspect you guys for pulling off some kind of prank on me? I don't think this is amusing.)

Yes, I did write a long respond. I'm not sure, but I think it was promptly deleted by moderators. If anyone cares I can try to post it again ...

(Edit: It wasn't deleted. I probably saw a cached page after some editing.)

What a waste of a life.

hhp

I bet some of you won't go off like that if it would be a client, asking you to do a logo in a certain font. It's exactly the same here, only that guy thinks the world's a free lunch party. I mean, what's better, asking like this (and paying for it) or just using Google or corsairs like LimeWire and the like to get the actual font?

I'm for solutions like that, especailly if Apple would make FontBook = iTunes, like a "FontBook Store" where you can "listen" to font samples, like the EPS thing mentioned above for a small fee.

Sergej... I think most people here do think in other terms than money. If you do work honestly as a designer or even as someone who designs type, you always end up underpaid, except if by some magic trick you end up being the next Neville Brody, David Carson or Stefan Sagmeister. You always put love in your work and do the details and stuff like that ... an no client ever pays enough for that. You don't become a designer for the money... and if anybody does, he or she will end up disappointed. As with any craft, I guess. You do it because you love your job.

>you should be nice to people around you when
>you can
Most folks here are -- check out the typograhic ID section, It takes TIME to identify typefaces for the people asking here... and while other companies charge money for font identification, here it IS free.

The problem here is that the initial poster from MyFonts.com isn't willing to spend 35 $ or whatever it is on Charlotte Sans and NETWORKING SOLUTIONS LTD. doesn't sound as if he's doing a work-for-free or thing or a student job here, does it? And for a simple sample, there are enough type teasers on the web -- as on the Fontshop site -- to get a gif of the visual feeling of Charlotte Sans, but no, he wants a useable and scaleable and editable EPS -- ergo he wants to save money on not buying the font.

If he were a student or would make clear that it is pro-bono work, he'd probably gotten his outline. I've yet to meet a small-minded and petty type-designer.

I agree with your initial POV, that people should be nice to other people, but most remarks here didn't strike me as arrogant or mean-spirited but rather as tongue-in-cheek until you kind of PO'd Yves and some others.

I have no objections against asking someone to set something in a font and convert it to outlines. It's not like 'borrowing' an actual font. The critical data is not in the outlines. But, for me, it's much easier to buy the actual font because you can do so much more with it, for such a small price. If you were to charge for the typesetting service, how much would you charge anyway? $50? I'd rather buy the font!

That brings me to a question... I'm doing an identity program for a client using Luc(as) de Groot's Corpid. Now, they want me to set their address in Corpid in a proper format, as an outlined EPS file so they could drop it into their documents without having to buy the actual fonts. Is that acceptable? Just wondering...

it would be funny if everyone went to the guestbook
on ian's site and requested a hi-res scan of a previously
purchased photo. ha ha ha.

Good point Isaac.
It would have been nice if Ian had offered a trade in kind as part of his initial request. Pics for Fonts.

>they want me to set their address in Corpid in a proper format, as an outlined EPS file so they could drop it into their documents without having to buy the actual fonts. Is that acceptable?

Of course.

>they want me to set their address in Corpid in a proper format, as an outlined EPS file so they could drop it into their documents without having to buy the actual fonts. Is that acceptable?<

It's not only acceptable, it's how smaller design firms earn their dailies! But the whole discussion here is about giving design work for free, not about giving fonts for free. And this is a thing every designer has to decide for themselves if they can afford to do so.

I think you also should differ between those who can't set type properly and need it done and those who are designers and are just after saving the money. But are you really saving a dime if you pay $40 for the setting instead of $50 for the font (for the designer, not the typophobic)?

so i followed my own suggestion above,
and got a prompt response from ian.
from the e-mail: "All my prints are copyright..."

indeed. i guess he has the advantage
over type designers in that he can actually
copyright his work. but as far as ethics,
not much difference.

In future I shall just use the scan that my customer provided and redraw the whole word and that way I shall keep everyone happy. How many times have you designers out there redrawn a 'no smoking' sign even though it was once drawn up by a designer who probably doesn't receive any more royalties for it.

I fully appreciate Isaac's posting on my site now but I would say that photography definitely has far more imagination than a simple few words of a font.

No, I would not class myself as a jerk, clueless or even a leech and I sincerely apologise for causing so much trouble. I would just class myself as asking a favour that one day I would like to return. As I said, I could have redrawn the words by blowing the jpeg up to around 400% but that would have taken time and that was against me.

As a matter as interest, how many of you designers have been influenced by other's work and have incorporated an element of that design in your own work? How many photographers have tried to copy Ansel Adam's work, or how many painters have tried to copy Picasso's work? Do you get what I mean?

Once again, I'll just spend that extra bit of time recreating the whole thing. This was part of a logo for a company based in England and I usually contact the particular company direct for their logo and that way I'm not in breach of copyright.

Can't believe I've caused so much trouble over a rather innocent request and I can't apologise enough.

Ian 'the jerk' Gregory

Before I get the typographic mafia on my case, might I point out that when I suggested that photography had more imagination than type designers I was meaning to say that a photograph has far more elements within it for it to be copied easily.

Glad I cleared that one up. Ian

> photography definitely has far more imagination

Photography is much more superficial than type.

hhp

I don't see you as a jerk, but a bit uninformed. You didn't explain your needs in the original post, so you got a reaction to the information you gave. This gem, "I fully appreciate Isaac's posting on my site now but I would say that photography definitely has far more imagination than a simple few words of a font," only furthers the impression that you don't understand the point (from my perspective).

A) The typesetting (or copying, as you put it) is only part of the equation.

B) The font as a whole represents a lot of time and energy and creativity.

You indicated in your original post that you wanted to circumvent the purchase of a font that you recognized and costs only $40. Why not add that negligible cost into your bill? The time spent on the purchase and typesetting alone should cover it anyway. Redrawing a font that isn't made of basic geometric shapes is time-consuming and difficult, and will just result in a sub-standard product anyway.

Your needs are understandable, I'm put in that position occasionally as well, but you've stumbled onto issues that are large and long-running. If you want to people to understand your needs and your situation, then write clearly and completely next time. Just asking for free font outlines and typesetting without explanation doesn't garner much sympathy.

I'm also curious what 'imagination' has to do with anything, as well.

There are a million Ians out there, 'designers' who are uninformed
about typography and type design and font licensing...

Most designers, even those who claim to be 'into fonts', do not see
type from the Typophile perspective.

but I don't get it. Why bring this over from MyFonts?

>> because this guy needs to know its soooo wrong.

is this a good direction for Typophile? Does it veer toward
Font Police behavior? Anybody have an opinion...

bj