1. find books by Steven Heller, Sr Art Director The New York Times.

2. check artwork by David Lance Goines, Milton Glaser, Otto Storch, Herb Lubalin, Michael Salisbury

3. check Polish artwork - 1950s through the 1970s - the golden age of Polish posters. really great artwork - design/illustration.

4. and don't forget the Psychedelic style - Rick Griffin, John Van Hamersveld, John R. Moerning



you need more?




David Hamuel

Thank you very much David

I will check them out tomorrow. I would be happy to hear about more suggestions,only if it's not too much trouble for you.
Also do you know any good critics or essays on the subject?
....thanks again , really helpfull
murph

1. a good guide "graphic style" by Steven Heller & Seymour Chwast. with Great bibliography.


2. essays - check what Heller wrote.


3. try to contact Mr Heller. tell him what are you doing/writing. and you want to interview him (by mail, email... )

The New York Times
Editorial Art Department
229 West 43rd Street, New York, New York 10036

and don't forget: Senior art director

and if you want - write another nice letter to Loretta White ( she is going to read your letter. first)



David Hamuel

Thanks David!
Great help! I will follow them up.
Let you know how did i got on.
Perheps you wont care, but i will do it anyway.
My only way to say thank at this moment.
Murph

That's a lot of Steven Heller, David.
For those of us who have an irrational prejudice against large chunks of Heller's writings, what would you suggest as an alternative?

Matha

first and foremost: i don't like to use labels. tags. e.g "large chunks of Heller's writing".

if he wrote something. anything. and you don't agree with him - that's fine.

what is "an irrational prejudice"? you're historian - what field? where?



most important: if this thread is going to be like "raed the txet", "killing" each other.....forget it.






David Hamuel

There are a lot of good things about Heller and his writing. There's also this certain nagging unease, something that smells like an "unholy" agenda - it's hard to put into words, and quite possibly in part in my/our imagination.

For example:
Why write a book that purports to wonder if the Swastika is beyond salvation as a symbol, while in fact Heller's foregone -and suspiciously convenient- conclusion is that no it must never even be allowed to heal as a symbol.

hhp

well. so we need to ask Mr. Malcolm Quinn why he wrote "the swastika: constructing the symbol"? and not just Mr. Heller?

The swastika, or design's role.. - this is a new- huge thread




David Hamuel

David said:

first and foremost: i don't like to use labels. tags. e.g "large chunks of Heller's writing".

Well you don't have to worry, then, because it's me who's saying "large chunks..." not you. How is that a label or a tag?

Look at it this way:

Q: What can I not stand?
A: A sizeable amount of Mr Heller's output.

what is "an irrational prejudice"?

His ravings on the Swatika have turned me off a lot of his more lucid studies on graphic design. An enormous pity, I'm sure, and not very rational, but true as the day is long, all the same.

you're a historian - what field? where?

You'd make a fiendish inquisitor, David. What? Where? Why? How? Prove it! Prove it!...

My fields are 19th and 20th century nationalist propaganda and Irish book history/typography and I'm attached to the universities of Reims and Paris 7.
Have I satisfied your curiosity? Will I post my CV along with any future criticism of Steven Heller?

most important: if this thread is going to be like "raed the txet", "killing" each other.....forget it

I'm glad I'm not the only one with irrational prejudices. I can see why you like Heller. He's all for 'forgetting' things he doesn't want to see or hear too.

Hrant said:

... this certain nagging unease, something that smells like an "unholy" agenda - it's hard to put into words, and quite possibly in part in my/our imagination.

That pretty much sums it up for me. Nagging unease rather than rational justification.

Matha

David,

I've started a new thread on Heller so you can forget you ever saw me in here.

M

Hello Everybody!

First: Thanks for David help, Unfortunatelly my teacher didn't find my dissertation topic good enough. So now i am in a hurry to find a better topic where i can generate a good argument. I would still like to write about typogaraphy around postmodernism.
I am thinking to write about the use of type in illustration. Can we use type as an image rather than information.
What do you guy's think?
iS ANYONE HAVE ANY BETTER SUGGESTIONS?
I don't wan't you to do m work for me but i would appritiate any help!
Thank you looking forward to hear from someone ...

post-modern:

1. Wolfgang Weingart (Basel, the new style) - he mixed type weights within the same word, arranged type into images; he rejected the order and cleanliness of the Swiss design and typography. ===>

2. Dan Friedman (New York, the new style) - in 1973 Friedman wrote:

"legibility (a quality of efficient, clear, and simple reading) is often in conflict with readability (a quality which promotes interest, pleasure, and challenge in reading). To what degree can a typographic statement be both functional and at the same time aesthetically unconventional?"

3. the Memphis Style

4. the American Punk - and check artwork/design/comics by Gary Panter, Art Spiegelman.



David Hamuel

Modern typography kinda sucks. What is groovy about funny mirrors and sparkler types. Thankfully torquois, mouve and purple went out of fashion in India about three hundred years back. Unfortunately modern typographers have not learned from the mistakes of the past. Typographers these days seem to think they have entered the pre talki days of the movie industry with the addition of "colour".

I hate to be a stick in the mud but what about something really "radical" such as "letterpress typography rocks".

Long haired typography. Now that's groovy!

http://www.lanstontype.com/GiampaLunenbergBoat.html

Gerald Giampa

Next time Heller wants to elucidated his theroy about the evils that intrinsically lurk behind the skirt of in the innocent Swastika form he might try to convince me at a town hall meeting here.

http://www.lanstontype.com/ShyloGiampa.html

So maybe the initial idea is good. The date of study was wrong. A very important figure concerning typography, art, illustration, fabric design, wallpaper, architecture, furniture design would be this man here.


http://www.morrissociety.org/printingandbookarts.html

Long haired typography wins.


Gerald Giampa

thank guy's
Appritiate all the help.
I will check out all the info's you recomended, not so easy to get hold of some of the staff though. But i wont give up.
While i was researching Carson's work i got the impression that typography has healling powers.
After reading a few books on art theraphy i believe that art and drawing can heal.
Do you think it would work the same way with type? Can typograhy be used as a theraphy?
M

Maria

"can we use type as an image rather than information?"

This instance does not cover post modernism, but certainly answers the question of type as image.

One man who has made a very in-depth study of the question without ever asking it of himself, is Chris Stern of Grey Spider Press. Over the past few years he has designed and printed a collection of typographical broadsheets, so rich in concept as to be almost paintings rather than merely a collection of wood-and-metal-type posters.

If you contact him, you may be able to get him to send you a photocopy or some other representation of his work.

He can be contacted by e mail at:

flywheel@premier1.net

You can blame the intrusion on me.

Jim Rimmer