Legions of Hrant fans, what else?

I, too, have been somewhat surprised at how many guests there are. People looking for free fonts? It would be interesting to be able to break down where the guests lurk. Are most of them in the font identification area?

Hrant,

I like to keep informed, if possible, of the temperature around certain threads. Often as not I have nothing to contribute to various threads, though I may be interested in them.

Other times I have to weigh the time I might spend being sucked into lengthy discussions against time I could ("should") be working.

Then too, I can't help feeling sometimes my input will be considered the canned bleatings of a company hack, regardless of my intention, knowledge, or sincerity. So, you could call me a conservative poster.

Recently a posting of mine went into the ether (due to the website upgrade) and I felt a little like I had wasted my time. The dialogue is often sparkling, the topics often worthy and challenging, but overall I think I feel the need to moderate my participation in order to keep other things moving along. I have an easy time being distracted anyway.

The moderators could consider requiring registration in order to read. Not a bad way to encourage participation, or at least transparency. It might discourage the "Anonymous".

I would hate to be considered a closet type geek. Tell the world! ;D

Carl

This is sort of off topic but I'd like to see the system display real names instead of the login names. The logins feel too impersonal and as someone who doesn't actually know anyone, it would be nice to at least know people's names without clicking on their info.

Lurkers vs. Posters
This is not at all surprising, Hrant. The site receives 3+ million hits per month with almost 6,000 registered users. It would be crazy to think that the active posting of several hundred people would account for all of that traffic.

It doesn't hurt to prod those people to say hello every now and then.

__
Real names vs. Login names
This is in the planned edits... In the meantime you can always change your login name 'jackson' to your full name. (Just remember that you changed it next time you login.)

Hey Carl. Your reasons for being a "recreational user" :-) make sense. But I realize now that I guess I don't really know the difference between a registered user and a "guest"... I thought a guest is somebody who has never registered, but that can't be it, since you've been registered for almost two years. So I guess a guest is anybody who simply hasn't logged in - and maybe that depends on the given browser (and browser settings), as well as on the habits of the individual. Like on my end (Firefox on Win-XP) I have to manually log out, otherwise I'm transparently logged in whenever I visit the site (even after a cold boot*). So I guess those numbers don't mean much - they certainly don't indicate of how many of the lurkers are registered.

* Do people still use that term? :-/

> The moderators could consider requiring registration in order to read.

I think it's hard to predict if that would help or hinder things. I have a feeling though that people who would balk at logging in to read are not of much use to Typophile anyway.

> I’d like to see the system display real names instead of the login names.

Ditto.
And Joe, I think a full name is generally too verbose to serve well as a login name; people would have to take an extra step to over-ride something that's intuitive (a terse login name).

hhp

If anyone's like me, they type about three paragraphs, preview it, delete everything, and go to bed. This post almost didn't even make it.
:)

If anyone’s like me, they type about three paragraphs, preview it, delete everything, and go to bed. This post almost didn’t even make it.

same here.

r.k

I am not a type designer. I often lurk on this board because it is one of the few I've found that concentrates on design, not technology. I believe that my philosophy is on display every time I create something so I am always interested in others point of view regarding design, and more importantly, life. Because I'm not a type designer I don't have anything to say in a lot of threads but that doesn't mean I don't learn from them…
For example, I recently was reading the threads on Blackletter and it's condemnation due to the connection to a certain period of German history. There was a comment about how the Nazis made everything in their society into an ideological symbol, including fonts. It started me thinking about Political Correctness (here in California it's abundant) and the similarity between the two ways of thought. We have a "feminist" neighbor who doesn't cook. Unfortunately she needs to turn that into a political statement. She doesn't clean house or garden she "does all the interior and exterior work". She's basically a frustrated housewife who has become an idealogue as a defense mechanism. So this thread helped me clarify my philosophy about life and therefore refine my design sense…
peace

I do the dishes. Unfortunately that still doesn't make me brave enough to wear high heels. :-) Seriously: yes, it's ALL related, isn't it.

--

BTW, I just did some quick tests, and discovered that:
1) When you browse the site as a guest, you can't: post; send instant messages; look at member profiles. Makes sense.
2) When you browse with one browser that's logged in to the site, and another one that isn't, the latter one still thinks you're logged in even after you QUIT the other browser (without manually logging out). Is that normal? It means that I for one am ALWAYS shown as logged on*... but clearly the list of online users shrinks and grows. Does it depend on the browser? Or are many users manually logging off all the time? The only reason for that I can think of is if one's boss is also a Typophiler**... But I doubt we have tons of such users - except for Dyana of course! :-)

* Unless a reboot (or a connection loss) logs me off?

** Typophiliac?

Also: What are some reasons not to enforce logging-in to READ as well. Psychological, mechanical, moral? I think it's not far-fetched, because Typophile has as strong a rep as it could ever have.

hhp

i don't like the idea of having to log in to read typophile content such as forums and the wiki. i think these should be areas of information that is freely avaiable to the public. one drawback i see of having to register to surf around typophile is that casual surfers won't be able to see what it's all about. i stumbled across this site a couple of times before i started really delving into it to find what a great resource it is. i think registration to do this kind of exploring on the sight may have prevented me from becoming a typophiloholic* (and that woulda been just sad).

* I added a link to the wiki because someone else saw fit to put this term in the TypoWiki.

Paul, makes sense.

What about this idea: Allow registerless reading for the first month only (using a cookie). That way you give people a chance to get hooked, but you encourage them to "come out" once they've decided to stick around.

hhp

I'm not sure about the browser - I've got Firefox on OSX and I'm always logged on (though I don't know if my name is shown when I'm not actually 'on' the website).

I think the main reason some ppl seem to come and go, and others seem to always be around is the cookies. I never clean out my cookies so I never have to log back in . While others who clean out their computers cache/cookies etc (whether they have something to hide or are just hygenic) must log back in.

As for why guests and newbies don't talk as much: I assume some of is because a lot of y'all seem to know each other - and ppl don't want to butt in. Also, many of you frequent posters know your stuff. I know more about typography and design than joe blow, but I'm still a student (literaly and figurativly). So others in my shoes may feel indimidated by that, and keep quite and read.

But the fact is, it's good to hear from all sorts of people, with varying levels of knowledge and experience. So don't be shy - let us know what y'all are thinking!

Cheers!

> others who clean out their computers cache/cookies etc (whether
> they have something to hide or are just hygenic) must log back in.

Oh, or have their browser set to do clean-up when
they quit; that makes sense. But it's still quite
strange that exiting the browser doesn't log you
out though...

The Eternal Student,
hhp

hhp -
I tried wearing high heels during my "rock n roll" days. It was very unpleasant, not to mention dangerous. Stick to the dishes, they'll do you no wrong. Which reminds me of a great billboard prank I once saw in San Francisco. On a KFC sign someone had crossed out the tag line and painted "You done that chicken wrong".
peace

I appear to be here all the time because I almost never log out. (For the last few hours I was out for dinner and a movie.) I could log out but it's less bother not to and there doesn't seem to be much point to it. It was the same with the old Typophile, but less obvious since "who's online" wasn't spelled out at the bottom of every page like it is now. What exactly does one gain by logging out, other than preventing people from trying to IM you?

1) If you close your browser window or quit your browser you should automatically be logged out. (If you have cookies set it will automatically log you back in.)

2) If someone logs out they show up as a guest. Or if they hit the site and are not logged in, they're shown as a guest until they log in.

3) The "Who's Online" info updates every 15 minutes, so it is regularly updating, but it is not totally "real time" like you would expect from AOL Instant messenger or iChat.

4) Users who are neither logged in, nor have an account can read threads and all the wiki content. They just can't post or edit wiki entries.

> The “Who’s Online” info updates every 15 minutes

OK, now your #1 makes sense.

hhp

Maybe all the guests are NYT reporters, just waiting to find that next big typography story!

I have just recently registered after a lengthy lurking period, but that was mostly because I didn't know you could register without going for a payed membership...

Also, the reason that perhaps this forum attracts more lurkers than people actively engaging in the conversations is because most of what goes on in here is very type-specific and very "professional"-sounding, if you know what I mean. I myself have never enjoyed an education in typography or design, and what I do, I do for fun. For me, design is a hobby-turned-profession, and I make a decent buck out of it, but all that type theory mumbo jumbo is very interesting but way over my head.

I don't know about other lurkers but that was my main reason for not posting -- Typophile is a tough crowd, though a very pleasant one. It takes guts to let one's designs be scrutinized by people who are way out of one's league.

Well, it's either that, or the "Register"-link is so small no one can find it. ;)

I'm curious as to why "guests online" are considered "lurkers". If I were to watch a cooking show on PBS, I would see chef creating a dish, explaining his or hers recipe, and in some cases share the dish with a live audience who will mostly agree that it looks and taste good. That is a form of communication on an electronic network. If I watch that am I considered a "lurkers" or a viewers who want to be intellectually informed on the art of cookin?
Just curious.

as for all analogies... this one only goes so far. the problem with it is that Typophile has been created (correct me if i'm wrong) with the intent of "Typographic Collaboration," as it reads across the top of your browser when you load the home page. On the opposite end of the collaborative spectrum, if you watch Emeril, there's very little collaboration going on.. maybe between him and one other chef. Let's call these participants. The rest of the audience doesn't contribute much or at all (especially those out in TV-land), so let's call them spectators. I think the assumption behind the concern over the ratio between participants to spectators (whew! could i have used any more prepositions?) is that the discussion could be so much more interesting and enlightening if we heard more perspectives and opinions from people who are obviouly interested in issues typographic. Spectators on typophile most likely view it as a wonderful resource (or why would they be "lurking" here). What they may not realize is that the Typophile experience becomes even more useful and personal when you ask a question or share a point of view in a discussion, prompting more discussion and thought-provoking experiences for everyone that is reading along.

Joffre, since the people on TV can't hear you, you can be excused for not trying to communicate with them. You can also be excused for not talking to peers (Typophile), but it's much harder to justify. Or: People who talk to their TVs are considered quirky, but people who discuss things with other people are not. Or: Not talking to your TV is not much of a missed opportunity, but only lurking on Typophile generally is.

hhp

Lurking is a missed opportunity to make a fool of oneself.

Hrant, first, people on TV can hear you. If it's part of their format.

I didn't ask to be excused from talking to the Typophile forum. I have responded in the past and will do so in the future if it is relevant.

I was questioning the word, "lurking". If you have 500 to 600 viewers online at one time you have an audience who are interested in the craft of designing type or typography in general and but don't have the knowledge or fortitude to respond, so why are they called lurkers.

Most of the viewers are just concerned about what's going on and want to separate the wheat from the chaff. No need to label them in a negative way or exclude them.

I don't think Hrant meant "lurker" in such a bad way. At least, I didn't take it that way.

But maybe I'm wrong.

>Allow registerless reading for the first month only (using a cookie).

I'd confirm with paul d hunts first statement in general, and I'd like to add that contributing something here does not only mean to overcome the knowledge-barrier sometimes, but, for non-native english speakers, the language-barrier as well. At least I wasn't that brave to post something the very second I found this wonderful site, it took quite a while, and more than just one month, to get acquainted, and I appreciated the opportunity of just reading a lot here very much. So, from my point of view, I'd think that limiting the possible reading time will not encourage people to post more.

Hrant

I don't quite understand your question. On an given list there are going to be a large proportion of lurkers compared to regular posters. I belong to a lot of lists, on a list or two I am very proactive about postings, others occasionally, many never, most of them I don't even lurk just maintain a membership. As you know, I also moderate a list. And YOU are a lurker there!!!

What I suppose is odd here, is that the discrepancy is clearly shown. But I'm not sure what the benefit of that is.

Just be thankful (in regard to your own subject interests) for those who are willing to share and contribute rather than just take, or worse, could care less.

Gerald

So in conclusion, the numbers of users vs guests (lurkers) are such possibly because:

1) not everyone logs in
2) not everyone logs out
3) the registration is not clearly free, or the link is not large enough
4) casual viewing and reading does not require membership

also, people don't post more because:
1) everyone here knows each other already
2) newbies don't feel that they can add to what the big guns have said already
3) these topics are fascinatingly of interest worldwide, therefore language can be an issue to many people
4) some write replies to posts, but end up deleting them rather than submitting them

finally
1) lurkers possibly sounds more negative than intended... or maybe not
2) the "who's online stats" (currently 11 users and 533 guests) is unnecessary but interesting
3) even unregistered viewers are good for the community, and type in general, one day they may begin contributing as well
4) Typophile forums are not a cooking show
5) men should not wear high heels but should do dishes
6) all the guests might be NYT reporters
7) it is good to hear from everyone with different levels of experience
8) the term "cold boot" hasn't been used for years*

By now this topic is seeming fairly exhausted. To contribute my two cents — as someone with very little experience — I would bet that the biggest factors to the "users to guests" ratios are most guests are casual viewers, language is somewhat of a barrier, and they don't feel they have the experience or insight to make a worthy contribution.

I started hanging out at Typophile a year and a half ago, but didn't register for 3 or 4 months. After that I don't think I posted for another 6 or 9 months. I have learned so much from here and all these discussions have inspired me and changed the course of my life. I was interested in typography and type design before Typophile, but it was here that added the gasoline to the fire... I can actually credit/blame these forums for getting me to change my career and state I live in (possibly the country, in not so distant future).

However, one of the most exceptional things I have gotten from Typophile is the realization of how incredibly stupid, ignorant is probably more appropriate, I am regarding type design. It is such an immense field with it's history, technology, science, etc. As with any field, the key players in the type world are geniuses with so much knowledge and experience behind them. Several of those people frequent Typophile, so while that is incredible for discussion and learning, it is intimidating to jump in and find something to add yourself.

This is one other reason I don't post often: personally, I don't edit well, I say too much at times... long winded... better listener than speaker.

Hail Typophile.

r.k

* for mac users at least

Lurker is not the same thing as guest. Guest is a "technical" term - somebody who is visiting the site but is not logged in. A lurker is somebody who doesn't post often enough to feel like part of the community.

I think it can be OK to be a lurker, but rarely over a very long period. I'm sure there are people who are personally most in harmony with Typophile when they post only on rare occasions; but there are also people who simply don't want it known that they're listening. My hunch is that most people fall sort of in the middle: they want to be a bigger part of the community, but are unsure how best to go about it, or if it's worth the risk/time/effort.

Basically, my main point in this thread is simply that a ratio of 1 user to ~30 guests seems unhealthy. HOWEVER, it does seem that a chunk of those guests are actually registered, they're simply not logged in much of the time. Note for example that Jared said there have been about 6 thousand Typophile registrations...

So:
It would be interesting to learn what proportion of visitors are registered.

> it took quite a while, and more than just one month, to get acquainted

But after a month* you knew you wanted to stick around, right? I mean you wanted to read the content bad enough that you'd register. This is not the same thing as being ready/willing to make a post, which can take much longer.

* Or maybe two, or three; a survey could help pin that down.

> I also moderate a list. And YOU are a lurker there!!!

No, unfortunately I simply haven't had the time to read. So I'm not actually lurking, because I'm not paying attention at all. But I don't unsubscribe, because: I wish I could be reading it; and one day maybe I can go back and skim everything.

I personally can't lurk very well; even in an environment where I know very little, there's one very good reason to "be there": asking questions. And I don't feel intimidated by people who scoff at my questions, because people who don't nurture learners are beneath me in the big picture.

> the registration is not clearly free

I think correcting this is important.

> everyone here knows each other already

This seems far-fetched.

> some write replies to posts, but end up deleting them rather than submitting them

This is quite strange to me (on the other hand, maybe I'm strange). I actually do that myself but very rarely, and usually because of "tactical" issues.

> men should not wear high heels but should do dishes

Well, maybe just not at the same time.

hhp

Hrant

I see you are back. I've never wondered about this as much as I wonder what type-designers, typographers, graphic designers do on the weekends, since they rarely participate on any of the lists from around noon on Friday until Monday morning. Now revealed by Typophile's little "eye" on you.

More importantly, do you think you can catch up to Tiffany?

Gerald

I lurk more than I post.

Sometimes I start to write something and think I post it, but for some reason it doesn't get posted. And yet I think it has been.

But the worst thing like this is when you're working on a font intensely, and you have a dream where you're kerning it, and you wake up and can't remember what you did for real and what was done in the dream.

I am back, but you can still never go home.

Anyway, I just passed Tiffany over the weekend! Even though it was quite a busy weekend for me: a museum, a concert, a birthday and a beach trip. But I guess Tiffany's was even busier!

Nick, one time I was working on a font while dozing off, forcing myself to push those beziers until I fell asleep in the chair. I managed to crawl to bed, after hitting Save and shutting off. The next morning I woke up to check my work, and there were some quite interesting curves and lines in the font! Maybe the fact that I was reading Baudelaire at the time motivated that stunt... :-)

hhp

I can't see any reason why just reading without registering is bad. The more readers Typophile gets, the more likely the number of registered users and active members it will probably get.

As has been mentioned above, many, many people don't feel comfortable about posting because of the language barrier. During TYPO Berlin, several German designers remarked to me about how much they enjoy reading Typophile, but don't feel comfortable enough trying to write in English. I told them to just post in German, there are enough "lurkers" who could read it as is or translate it for a wider audience.

The same could be said for any language.

I think that it might be good if Typophile had a FAQ and registration in more than one language (Joe and Jared, this is an offcial suggestion!!!). How hard would it be to build a few pages in German, French, and Spanish (not to mention Russian or Chinese!)? I think that the site would be better for it. I'd be happy to translate anything you'd need into German, and I'm sure that enough other users would step forward, too.

__
www.typeoff.de

I have to say I don't think lurkers are bad, nor are guests. I do think more people shouldn't be afraid to post, and I hope that I'm not one of the reasons people don't post. When I was a teacher I always encouraged everyone to voice there opinion. The more conversation that was generated usually meant the more useful the discussion became to everyone. However, the shy students had to be coaxed, slowly.

For the lurkers and guests. There isn't one person who posts on typophile that knows everything about one thing or many things. Please contribute to the conversation.

Thank goodness Hrant passed me. Forrest and Yves will pass me soon as well. In fact, I encourage everyone to post more and push me clean off the list. :^)

Wait, lurkers and guests are certainly not "bad"!

> When I was a teacher I always encouraged everyone to voice there opinion.

Exactly. Besides these one-off encouragements that we try to provide, maybe a nudge to get more people to register (after a certain period of observation) will help them clear a psychological hurdle?

A community can only serve its individuals if they in turn keep the community vibrant. Frankly, somebody who's so adamant about never taking up a free registration can go somewhere else for a parasitic meal.

hhp

Speaking for myself, as a person just getting started with type design (this is also my first post) it can be a little intimidating seeing professionals that you admire posting on a website. You could say something that could get you in a lot of trouble for, like mentioning a font you don't like with the designer two posts above yours. :)

Terry Biddle

Diffidence, in this context, seems to me to be healthy. There's no point in posting unless you have something to ask or something to say which (1) you think might interest other people and (2) hasn't already been said. The idea that you must post even if you know nothing just because you happen to have an opinion, even if it is the same opinion as a lot of other people, does not seem to me to make for a conversation or a community, but a sort of shrieking nest of parrots.

On the whole, we are lucky. There is not too much psittacine shrieking, but most threads produce some discussion. I would certainly encourage everyone who wants to do so to participate actively, but I would trust people's judgment.

Besides, on usenet (which the forums, in effect, are) it has always been thought good practice to lurk for a fair while, in order to avoid asking silly questions, spot the trolls (happily absent here), avoid inadvertently starting a flame war ... etc. That's still good sense.

Now, as a new member, I've read somewhere about this thing called a bouma, which is obviously rubbish anyway, but what I really want to know is: where can I get a great free ;-) version of some font I saw called Wittman or something that will go great with Arial and Comic Sans for this book I'm about to publish called "Fraktur: The Nazi Type" ...

Lurking has its point.

"Now, as a new member, I’ve read somewhere about this thing called a bouma, which is obviously rubbish anyway, but what I really want to know is: where can I get a great free ;-) version of some font I saw called Wittman or something that will go great with Arial and Comic Sans for this book I’m about to publish called “Fraktur: The Nazi Type” …"

LOL!!! That is hysterical :-)

ChrisL

:-)

But please note: I never said Thou Must Post. To me this is more about gradually getting more people to feel more comfortable to post. Some people don't need that sort of help, and all they'd give up* is: a minute of their time to register, and some seconds now and again to log in; and the covertness of their presence. While some other people do need some coaxing, and they'll thank us for it (a good example being people who don't post because of language issues).

* I mean if we implemented a time limitation on guest status.

Seeing the pronounced disproportion of logged-on people versus "guests", I wonder:
1) What proportion of the guests are registered, but simply not logged in at a given moment.
2) If this community (and hence its members) would benefit from a more "pushy" encouragement (but only to register/log-in, certainly not to post).
3) If anybody cares about the only negative (?) side effect of the extra pushiness: losing the attention of people who don't want us to know they're reading.

hhp

"A community can only serve its individuals if they in turn keep the community vibrant. "Frankly, somebody who’s so adamant about never taking up a free registration can go somewhere else for a parasitic meal."

I'm sorry. Do you not enjoy sharing your knowledge of type design or do you have another agenda.
When I originally responded to lurking, I was following up on a question posed to me by my young grandson who asked me how he could learn more about type design. He questioned me about the word "lurking" and its definition so I presented the question to the forum.

What parasitic meal do you recommend?

2) If this community (and hence its members) would benefit from a more “pushy” encouragement (but only to register/log-in, certainly not to post).
3) If anybody cares about the only negative (?) side effect of the extra pushiness: losing the attention of people who don’t want us to know they’re reading.

personally, I vote for less government / pushiness / big brother - what have you

...not less than there is now per se, I just don't see the benefit in being more forceful to register and log on.

Hrant, I now understand your standpoint on posting/not posting, but I still fail to see why being logged on (visible) is so important and how it is bad to be (invisible). Yes, it is good to help people "feel more comfortable to post," but like you also said, registering only takes a few minutes and a few extra seconds to log on... therefor, if some guest wants to become an active part of the group, they can very simply and quickly. Forcing them to be registered from the beginning isn't going to encourage them to post. Allowing someone to hang out here, learn, and not be pressured is the easiest way for them to open up.

r.k

Joffre, not only are you registered, but you're making posts. So you're two degrees away from being parasitic; or actually three, considering that most people who are not registered (nevermind all the registered one who are simply not logged in) are not in fact peeping toms.

> I still fail to see why being logged on (visible) is
> so important and how it is bad to be (invisible).

The latter is not important at all - trust me, I'm not into punishing people. But I also don't care to help them keep peeping; they're collateral: if they fall out basically as a result of not wanting to be seen, tough.

The former however does have importance. Every little thing, like actually carrying out the action of registering, having your name show up at the bottom of pages, etc. creates a feeling of belonging. And you take better care of something that you belong to (and belongs to you), and vice versa.

> Forcing them to be registered from the beginning
> isn’t going to encourage them to post.

Not the beginning. The middle.

And my point above is that becoming registered does indeed increase the chances you'll post. Not everybody, but some people. And nobody -except the peeping toms- loses.

hhp

Hrant, you see a problem where there is none.

Yes, the story of my life! :-/

hhp

Trying some, personal, definition: "Lurking" does not necessarily mean not wanting to be seen. It can mean, e.g., to simply get a short glimpse of the discussions going on here, which is nice and fast and can be accomplished in a few minutes (and, when getting hooked, which is very likely to happen, for lots of more time).

"Lurking" here, for me, is like reading a book (where, at least until now, I don't have to log in), but with extended possibilities, which means I can participate in a discussion directly, if I wish, which is great, takes considerably more time (writing, consulting the dictionary now and then, sometimes rewriting) and if I have that much time at the given moment to do this, I'd log in.

Generally, I can't see what could be negative about giving people lots of time for just reading and happily broadening one's knowledge which might lead to, hopefully, better thought-out postings? Posting, I think, is a question of temper. Some people join in after 2 seconds, some others after 2 years of "lurking" to contribute something interesting. So "the middle" can be very different for different people. Seeing the own name at the bottom of pages, etc. doesn't necessarily prevent people from telling rubbish as can be seen in lots of other forums.

hrant, my take on visitors (lurkers) is much like my opinion of digital cameras. Because you don't need film in a digital camera, more people are taking photos and some percentage of them will get more involved in photography and maybe even become professionals. Visitors might learn enough to get their interest piqued and become a registered member and a few might even become type designers. I look at this site as inclusive not exclusive.

Hrant,
Thank you for acknowledge that I'm two degrees from being a parasite. I appreciate your opinion.

"The latter is not important at all - trust me, I’m not into punishing people. But I also don’t care to help them keep peeping; they’re collateral: if they fall out basically as a result of not wanting to be seen, tough."

If the message is that students of any age who are interested in type design, they can assume by being an online guest that they are "lurkers" or "peeping toms". Should we not reconsider the use of the selected terminology and availability for the next generation. Or are they fourth degree parasites.

What parasite meal do you recommend?

Tina, Dan, good points.

Joffre, if you're walking along and hear an interesting conversation, and you pause to listen for a minute, you're not a lurker. But if the people having the conversation notice your interest and urge you to join them, but instead you position yourself behind a bush and camp out with a tape recorder, there's a problem.

> What parasite meal do you recommend?

Comp.fonts, I guess.
Unless the Health Department already closed it down.

hhp

"What parasite meal do you recommend?"

Why alphabet soup of course :-)

Welcome to Typophile Joffre. I hope you and your grandson will stay with us, either as guests or registered. I would be curious to know what got your grandson interested in typography?

ChrisL

I would be curious to know what got your grandson interested in typography?

Why alphabet soup of course :-)

r.k

>if you’re walking along and hear an interesting conversation, and you pause to listen for a minute, you’re not a lurker. But if the people having the conversation notice your interest and urge you to join them, but instead you position yourself behind a bush and camp out with a tape recorder, there’s a problem.

Hrant,
I will forward your comments to my grandson. Thank you for your insight and your opinion regarding how learn more about the art of type design and the foundation of communication.

rkeller
I've been designing type for thirty-five years. To alot of young kids they have no idea what the art is.

Touche RK :-)

ChrisL

I realized that Tina's points about lurking apply to how I read the ATypI list.

From a lurker:

I find typophile.com is a useful site for information about specialist topics in type design. For example, I found some sensible answers about whether lining numerals should be the same width in regular and bold (yes, they should). As I am a complete amateur in type design, and have little contact with people in type-related businesses, reading comments from experienced designers helps fill a gap.

I design typefaces for my own use and enjoyment. I find it is a very satisfying hobby, though it can be rather too absorbing. One design is a monospaced bitmap at 24 pixels, for use on my X console when using a high resolution. The current project is a humanist sans-serif designed for general text; e.g. reports, parts lists, and other documents I produce as an engineer. I currently use a sensible serif face for this, e.g. Century Schoolbook.

Perhaps there are alot of other font-tweakers out there who visit these forums just out of interest, but do not feel the need to post.

I could fill so many books with long, insightful, passionate emails and discussion posts I wrote, edited, slept on, and ended up deciding not to send. More than one of them were flames at Hrant.

:-)

Before you accept Hrant's characterization of lurkers as anything near authoritative, try to figure out how many people consider him an authority on anything.

It has never been easier, more fun or more rewarding to learn about typography and type design.

wrong thread, sorry :-/

ChrisL

was that comment meant for another thread, chris?

John, along with the passionate posts you ended up not sending, you used to actually make passionate posts too. It's sad -clearly a loss to Typophile- that these days you only unlurk to strike people -and Typophile- down. Quite perplexingly, I think much of that is due to your political views (mostly related to this Iraq war) being strongly and publically rejected by most of your design colleagues, causing you to feel unwelcome.* To be fair though, it's certainly hard to keep a cool, objective head in such an environment. But please note that I think I'm managing with William, so I hope eventually you'll start unlurking to contribute quality, not flames.

* I hope you're not waiting for WMDs to suddenly show up, or for the US military-industrial complex to suddenly become benign...

hhp

Do-o-o-h!

Yes Paul, I kinda, heh, heh, blew it :-)

ChrisL

Just thought I would say hello. Long time reader, first time poster :)

Marnie

Welcome Marnie.

ChrisL

Hi Marnie!

hhp

we're just glad to know that there are more of us that share the affliction of typophilism.

It’s sad -clearly a loss to Typophile- that these days you only unlurk to strike people -and Typophile- down.

The only "people" is you, Hrant, and it's always in response to you slagging off someone else. You began this whole thread. You called lurkers "parasitic." You insult Emigre regularly. I can count dozens of type designers who won't go near this place because of you and Bill, largely. (And probably more and more because of me too, the more I get embroiled in this.) Typophile is a great resource when the threads don't get derailed by insults. So yes, when I catch you insulting someone, I might just feel like delurking and firing back. The hostility was here before I got here. This is my way of answering it.

Case in point: you have more interest in my politics than anyone else. You're the only one who ever brings it up, always to discredit me, and you don't even know half of my politics to begin with. You really don't know anything about me, but that's never stopped you from constructing a caricature to argue with. Over and over.

I quite like Typophile and read it regularly. I would post more if I weren't so busy with work. I would encourage lurkers to lurk all they want and absorb all they can, and post when they do have something to say. Certainly don't feel uncomfortable lurking. Hell, take pleasure in it...

> The only “people” is you, Hrant

But that's mainly because I spearhead the rejection of your politics. Trust me, I'm not the only person who thinks you no longer use Typophile properly. If you don't realize that your posts to this thread (and really the bulk of your posts in the past two years or so), mostly serve to make you look bad, then you really need to be paying more attention, instead of digging a deeper trench.

> You called lurkers “parasitic.”

Only the stalkers.
Not the people who simply don't feel up to participating.
Those (like Marnie until now) I'd like to encourage to post.

> You insult Emigre regularly.

1) This is false. Back when they were persecuting me, I was not gentle with them. But since 2002 I've been as nice as is reasonable. When I note their -thankfully past- vigilantism, or when I point out that Mrs Eaves is poorly spaced -generally adding that its black forms are however very nice- that's not insulting, that's constructive criticism.
2) What does that have to do with anything? Is Emigre a sacrosanct religion?

> I can count dozens of type designers who won’t go near this place because of you and Bill

Ah, the classic escapism. Just see what happened to Typo-L when I left for the sole purpose of proving I was not the problem (nor the solution). The problem is not having a spine, and blaming a scapegoat for your own weakness.

> This is my way of answering it.

You should instead spend more energy making useful posts.
Ignore me freely, please. But ignore your own reality at your own risk.

hhp

You should instead spend more energy making useful posts.

And you should follow your own advice!

this thread gave me that well-needed nudge to dig up the email i received at the beginning of the month and log on with my new password. how lazy can you get? i guess i'm one of those lurker/members...thanks for dragging me back onto the dancefloor!

I was looking around the Typowiki over the weekend, and noticed that the "Who's Online" appears on the wiki as well (not sure if this has always been the case). I reckon that with this new resource, more web searches find their way to Typophile directly to the wiki, and possibly these guests haven't yet made it over to the forums.

For some reason I decided to read this topic and I'm actually sorry I did.

I've been a member for only 5 days and found that the community is generally helpful, open to share ideas, opions, recipes, bad puns, &c.
Of the several key forums devoted to typography, Typophile's seems to be the most active, topics and comments added several times each hour.

I'm a member of two other type forums and there's far less activity that I hardly visit them anymore.

I'm also a member of about five other forums and post to two of them several times a month. One of them has 157,000 members, the other has 2,557,000 members. You can imagine the amount or unregistered "lurkers" they have.

The only reason I post is to try and learn something, and the only reason I reply is to try and share what I know. Forums are one of the best and most up-to-date informational resources available anywhere. Millions of people seek advice and/or information from "experts" in Forums daily whether they post or not.

Get over it! Stop pissing and moaning about who should see what and how long they get a peek. Forums should remain open for all to read though members have additional privileges and access to a smaller "Members Only" area. That's the way the best Forums run.

If there were a "Members Only" Read & Post area on Typophile, that is where this topic belongs. The IMHO the public should not see us pissing & moaning. Rants and flaming will scare any novice away from posting or even joining.

Keep this crap up and I will take my Typographic Ball somewhere else where members, guests and lurkers are all respected.

BTH- Hi Joffre, long time since we had a beer!

IMHO, "lurking" is a misnomer.
You might just as well call the regular posters "grandstanders".
It's like you're at a party, and does everyone have to be the life and soul of it?
Of course not.

Also, there are a number of forums that one may want to get involved with, but their complexion changes constantly. I often check out design observer or speak up, but I rarely feel sufficiently in the groove to get involved with a thread.

Since the redesign, I'm having resertvations about Typophile. Sure, some new features are cool, but the topics seem a bit light. I put it down to the absence of being able to post visuals directly into thread.

Norbert, I don't believe any of us should engage in silence or fawning to attract/keep people; it's much better if we share what's on our minds openly... just like you've done here! :-)

Nick, the quality of discussion on any forum ebbs and flows; we just need to avoid a massive ebb that might cripple Typophile (especially since it's the best type board, ever). And I think the current ebb here started some time before the redesign, maybe even almost a year ago; if anything, the redesign should help.

hhp

"Norbert, I don’t believe any of us should engage in silence or fawning to attract/keep people; it’s much better if we share what’s on our minds openly… just like you’ve done here! :-)"

I agree Hrant.
All that being said, Typophile does seem to have the best Forum for exchanging info, ideas, exploration, research and plain old feelings about type forms and typography. If anything, this topic did evoke first posts by new members and shamed a few visitors to become members.

I guess I'll move on to the next interesting topic.

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Yes, I'm old, but I'm back in style!