I just wish their fonts worked small.

Value: I could write a short book
of how much Typophile has helped me.

hhp

I haven’t seen the context of the remark, but it sounds like a rather self-centered perspective. Typophile may not offer much of value to Rudy Van der Lans, but it does offer tremendous value to me as a comparative novice. You have roughly half the board of ATypI who post on Typophile, some quite regularly, and others of comparable experience and accomplishment. They obviously enjoy talking type both to each other and to help mentor those of us of lesser experience - from whom they might even learn a thing or two now and then.

So I say Hooray Typophile!

Now if they would just fix the damn measure and type size on the new site design...

Well, have a look at it. Maybe I am not reading it right, or am reading too much into his comment. Would like to know what others think.

I do agree with Hrant and William that there is deep value here. It would not be so successful and well used if there was no real value to the participants.

—
Mike

I’ve not seen the issue yet, and this is the first I’ve heard of it. Maybe he’s just sour grapes because I’ve let my subscription lapse :)

Do they still run letters to the editor?

(Mike, can you post the text here?)

Who the hell is Rudy, and why should I care?

Let’s be honest. Some people on this board have written some very presumptuous, uninformed disparaging things about Emigre. And moderators let it stand in some spirit of “openness” or what have you. If I were in Emigre’s position, I’d want to go elsewhere for discussions or answers. It’s not enough for Emigre’s detractors to simply not buy and use Emigre fonts. They simply cannot accept Emigre’s profound success and influence.

And people either need online forums or they don’t. I happen to need them. I work on type alone, so online interaction is my only interaction. And I will say now it is the WORST kind. Face-to-face or even the telephone is better. Once I write something online, some yapping Pomeranian can always waltz in, scrutinize the tiniest discrepancy and derail the whole thread from ever arriving at a satisfactory answer. And online arguments wear me out. Online a cowering twit can talk and act like a hulking thug. It only takes two or three such people to drive away those who have the most to contribute to a forum.

That said, I would first point at the technical forums and the new editable wiki pages as examples of the most useful parts of typophile. And the Critique forums are a treasure chest full of young new designers looking for a good home at a foundry. And I have had rewarding first encounters here on typophile—Dan Reynolds, Tiffany Wardle and Andreas Seidel, for example. And Joe!

Hey, people on this board have written some very presumptuous, uninformed disparaging things about me too, but I’m still here! Because I like the abuse? No, because I’m strong enough to prevent it from stopping me from benefiting from Typophile. Although it sort of helps that 99% of them have been anonyrats. Oh yeah, I’m sure it’s because if they’d used their real names I’d gun ’em down... Also, people have written crap about a bunch of other people and organizations too (like Linotype and Bitstream), but Dan (your buddy) for example is going strong.

BTW, one thing you should know (and I think you do, it’s just more convenient for you to ignore it) is that Rudy and I have been on decent terms since 2002. That doesn’t mean we agree on everything (or even much), like what makes a Good Font, but it sort of throws a wrench in your polarization...

> people either need online forums or they don’t.

Well of course. As William said, the issue isn’t what’s useful to Rudy, but what’s useful to people as a whole. Some people are more fruitful communicators via ponderous, hierarchic magazine articles, others via a whirlwind of ASCII, others via lapdancing, others whatever. Don’t stick your nose up at an environment you can’t handle. And don’t show up exclusively to strike us down.

Typophile members (like those who’ve had actual font releases after a long public gestation here) constantly express their appreciation. And what kind of organization manages to soft-sell people memberships in return for virtually nothing? Face it, it’s a good thing, overall. Don’t defend somebody who thinks otherwise simply because it’s an opportunity to attack certain people.

> it is the WORST kind.

Yeah, it really sucks that it doesn’t cost anything, it overcomes geographic barriers, and everything is archived.

> I have had rewarding first encounters here on typophile—Dan
> Reynolds, Tiffany Wardle and Andreas Seidel, for example.
> And Joe!

Hey, same here! Many people you like don’t like other people you like. What does that mean? As for me, the only people I tend to have trouble with is fundamentalists.

hhp

Whoah, mister, calm down. I totally understand what John Butler is saying: online interaction is the worst not because it’s bad in absolute terms, it’s the worst because it’s worse than other forms of interaction, like meeting someone face to face. I went to see you speak at CCSF not because I thought you were going to say anything different than what you’ve said online (and, indeed, I recognized an awful lot of your presentation materials), but just to see Hrant Papazian in action. The person I saw was modest, knowledgeable and charming. If I lived in LA, I’d totally sign up for your class. I think it’s going to be a lot of fun. Would I have wanted to before I saw you speak? Probably not, because the online Hrant is a pretty schizophrenic entity, frankly.

Being a type nerd can be a really alienating thing. I’m lucky, because San Francisco is a designer’s town, and it’s not hard for me to find people to talk to about my obsession with fonts and type design. Talking to friends about what I’m doing and showing them my feeble efforts at type design have done a lot to fuel the fires of my passion. I get a lot out of Typophile, but it’s sort of removed, at a distance.

I can understand why Emigre would be pissy towards Typophile, for exactly the reasons John outlines. I wrote the entry on Zuzana Licko, who is probably one of my favorite type designers, and even that, though positive and short, is pretty far from hagiography. Lots of people here have bagged on their work numerous times. That said, it’s a little surprising they’d care enough about the smack that gets talked here to single Typophile out. I’ve always been pleased at how moderate and cordial Typophile is, but then again, I’ve been dealing with Internet culture for a long time. My expectations are pretty low.

Jared,

Sorry, I can’t post the copy as the mag is at my studio and its the weekend. Maybe on Monday if someone else does not beat me to it.

—
Mike

>And I will say now [on line] is the WORST kind [of interaction].

Hmmm, this is getting interesting.

John, it is the worst in the ways you mention - people tend to be much ruder than in person, and the garrolous and irrelevant talkers have much more power in an on-line conversation.

But it also has some unique benefits that face to face conversation does not. It enables communication at a time of your convenience - a fabulous thing about e-mail also. And it enables you to reach a wide group of people of like interests all across the world, and to learn from each other - and to form new friendships, as you mention.

I find this instant, international reach of the internet dazzling and wonderful.

I haven’t explored other on-line discussion venues much, but when I follow links to others, I haven’t seen anything that compares to Typophile. Maybe it is something about the size of the interest group (not too little or too big) or its common passion, but the sustained discussion over time on a pretty high level is quite impressive to me.

And of course Jared and Joe deserve the hats off for creating and now recreating it.

> it’s worse than other forms of interaction

I don’t agree. Clearly, each environment has its pros and cons. And yes, different people are more in tune with different environments. John likes telephone conversations better; to me the telephone is quite abhorrent. But I’d never claim it has no value. And you like Typophile yourself, and I bet not just because it’s moderate and cordial, not because you have an unfortunate addiction to it or something, but because it’s stimulating and educational - because it has value to you. You don’t show up just to throw a hissy-fit.

Yes, you attended my talk (thank you), but you nonetheless realize the geographic barriers at play in the fact that hundreds of other people didn’t attend. You are lucky that you live in the Bay Area. But maybe you’re unlucky that you don’t live close enough to Beirut. Maybe Rudy is lucky that he doesn’t need Typophile. But you and Rudy are just single individuals, not benchmarks against which my talk, Typophile, or anything else should be judged.

You think I’m a schizo online, but fine in person. Other people appreciate my online presence (I know because they email me out of the blue to tell me so), but are sometimes disappointed that I can seem downright boring in person. Everybody is different, and that’s exactly why saying Typophile has no value -and eagerly defending people who say that- is a bad reflection on such people.

hhp

This is very interesting. It surprises me a bit because I’ve only ever encountered one RvdL statement about Typophile before. In fact, that one statement can be found on the bottom of page 6 of Emigre No. 66: Nudging Graphic Design (Princeton Architectural Press, 2004). The article is the issue’s introduction, in which RdvL sings the praises of Armin Vit and SpeakUp.

Quote: “There are other type-related blogs I visit. Typographi.ca and Typophile.com are musts if you’re interested in type design. If you think Emigre’s discussions on legibility in the early 90s were somewhat tedious, check out the depth and extent to which these bloggers discuss the topic.” (Author’s emphasis)

So, RdvL seems to have written that in 2004 that Typophile was very important to type designers, while subtly belittling its participants at the same time. I have not seen the above-mentioned issue of Print.

It is no secret that some key leaders of the type industry dislike Typophile. Incorrect rumors spread here that can hurt individuals or sales, and some (almost always anonymous) posters can just be plain rude. However, it has been my experience that these people are almost always shot down, or at least well rebuted, by regulars (who are not anonymous).

As an aside, I am grateful for Typophile, and have enjoyed every opportunity to meet fellow posters live at various conferences. If it hadn’t been for Typophile, I’m sure that I woun’t have met any of you yet. Every time I hear a disparaging mark about Typophile (in person, or on another forum) I get very sad.

I could understand if RvdL had a grudge against this board’s discussions, though. The wiki listing for Mrs. Eaves is actually quite rude. And it has been a whipping boy in too many discussions. Do you think that makes RdvL and Zuzana Licko more likely, or less likely to want to chime in?
__
www.typeoff.de

Hrant, I’ll admit that I was a bit worried before I met you in person. I thought that I was going to get it for all the disagreement we’d had online, especially those that took place before and after the last US election. But it was a delight to meet you in Beirut. You certainly were not boring, a little “quieter” perhaps, but that is never boring (I think that the people who can’t stop talking are the most boring…).

__
www.typeoff.de

> The wiki listing for Mrs. Eaves is actually quite rude.

For the record: although that phrase in mine, I didn’t make that wiki entry (in fact I’ve barely even checked out the Typophile wiki stuff). Somebody must have thought it’s a good encapsulation of the typeface. Personally, although I stand by that characterization, I think Mrs Eaves is a complex enough face that it deserves at least a full paragraph, to put things in an adequate context. Also, believe it or not I do think there’s a place for tact, and there are things you can say -and ways you can say them- in “conversation” that are better left out of something “formal” like a wiki, or at least not given all the weight. On the other hand, there’s also something to be said for admitting that one’s font is badly spaced, coming to terms with it, and moving on - not