smc

Lanston's Goudy Thirty alt cap Z is probably something that might be interesting on a wine label.

But I find it a bit odd that someone would take on commercial work and then ask for free design assistance from their peers.

Anonymous,

I never would have thought of courier's lower-case z
as a candidate for my project. But really, the form
is quite interesting and could be "Hip". I thank you
for your comment. I will throw this into the pile of
zs I am collecting.

Gerald,

I was unable to locate a sample of the Thirty alt cap
Z that you speak of. Do you know of where I can see
a sample?

> But I find it a bit odd that someone would take
on commercial work and then ask for free design
assistance from their peers.

I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else
regarding my inquiry. My intention is not to steal from
anyone that participates in Typophile but rather to
learn through the exchange of ideas. My post was intended
as somewhat of a continuation of the <a href="http://www.typophile.com/forums/messages/30/8225.html?1049405322">
ampersands </a> thread that
was posted earlier. Some very unique forms were posted that
I was previously unaware of. And no one ever really says
much about Zs. I thought it might be interesting to see
what people like about Z. I have a z in my name and have
never found a good way to use it.

In my view, a lot of free design assistance happens around
here, particularly in the Design section of Typophile. Topics
such as What serif faces go with Interstate?, Suggestions
for book typeface, Wine & typefaces all seem to be asking
about the same sort of question as mine and all seem to be
paying jobs as well.

Perhaps the letter

Sean

Good post.

A showing with the zed is here:

http://www.philsfonts.com/detail.html?sku=LT00000602M1

Gerald,

I agree with you on your choice of Z. It certainly would be interesting on certain wine labels. In France, though, people would automatically assume it was German/Alsacien wine. In the US, this is probably not the case.

And Sean (Sean Michael?),

I had approximately the same reaction to your first post as Gerald. This year, though, I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt and in your case it's paid off.

Unfortunately, you gave the impression that you hadn't done any research yourself and wanted other people to do your work for you. Even worse, perhaps, you also gave the impression that you don't know much about what you are doing.

I think, your second post cleared most of this up. That said, I think you have a point about the amount of people looking for free advice in here.

Good luck in your project and don't forget to let us know when you've come up with something.

Matha.

> I like how rectangular courier's lower-case z is.

Anonymous, are we talking about Courier, the typewriter-like font that is included as a default face on pretty much every computer ever made? The "z" you posted isn't a glyph in that Courier, as far as I can find.

http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/linotype/courier/courier/mac-t1/24623/character/007A/CP4/

The "z" you posted looks closer to Hellenic Wide. Courier's "z" is much squarer.

Many of the "z"s in The Hoefler Type Foundry's Proteus Project fonts are quite beautiful, especially the italics.

Check out HTF Ziggurat Black Italic:

http://www.typography.com/catalog/proteus/testdriver/ziggblackital.html

HTF Leviathan Black Italic:

http://www.typography.com/catalog/proteus/testdriver/leviblackital.html

And HTF Acropolis Black Italic:

http://www.typography.com/catalog/proteus/testdriver/acroblackital.html

HTF Hoefler Text Italic also has a lovely "z":

http://www.typography.com/catalog/hoeflertext/testdriver/italic.html

David

Stephen: A tranquiliZer, or a nice cool Zephyr? Maybe we just need to catch some "Z"s...

Anonymous

Despite Stephen's admonition, I think this is an interesting exchange about something not often discussed here.

It's not just that design is a business, which it most definitely is, and a very competitive one. "Cost" is not specific to our culture but has been around ever since the idea of the "marketplace" and the beginning of "culture."

But, let's say Sean liked the Goudy Thirty alt Z and used it in his client's piece. Yeah, he gets the money. But more importantly, he gets the credit for the design. And based on this, he may even pull in other work, undeservedly, in this regard. I doubt he'd actually feel good about that.

There isn't anything new under the sun, and yes, ideas and inspiration generally come from our exposure to the work of our peers. But there is a bit of a difference in how this is working here. Its one thing to show a piece and humbly ask for a critique, its another to ask others to contribute to your work and then take credit for it. I'm sure Sean understands this based on his recent post.

I certainly am inspired by the work of others and will drawn upon what I find useful, but quite frankly, I would never ask someone for design advice as I don't know how I could then say the piece was my own work (for better or worse). And this has got nothing to do with money.

Two items.

1. Mr. Butterworth. That Zed is hilarious. Also, is that an Eric Gill Floriated Leaf? If not, can we see the rest of it. It looks very nice. (If it is may we see the rest?)

2. Why don't we start threads similar to the ampersand thread? That way. We are posting our favorites shapes, from Ape to Zed, and all will be right with the world.

> he gets the credit for the design

Not necessarily. Although it's not reasonable to give public/explicit/formal credit for every bit of inspiration a designer unavoidably gets, ethically it's expected of anybody who benefits beyond a certain threshold to state his debt, and there's no reason to assume Sean wouldn't do the right thing. To me asking isn't so bad - but pretending you didn't ask is indeed a big problem.

And if somebody wants to actually share any resultant "wealth" that would be even more commendable. Maybe a small donation to Typophile? For example, my own membership payment here has little to do with getting yet another cool t-shirt.

It's really all a matter of reasonable behavior, not satisfying every person and every Law out there.

hhp

I just realized that a French Bar need a french Z, seems obvious after a good evening on a terrasse of a caf

I just realized that a French Bar need a french Z, seems obvious after a good evening on a terrasse of a caf

Stephen,

I think you jumped the gun a bit with your "Everybody take a tranquilizer!" there. I may be wrong but I don't think anyone was panicking. I would be obliged if you would explain your 'admonition', as Gerald calls it.

matha.

Glad you enjoyed the flaming Zed.

Also, is that an Eric Gill Floriated Leaf?

It's part of a very art-nouveau-ish T that I cut out of a Dover clip-art book, so, I'm not sure about it's origin... it could be, but, I doubt it.

Here's something by Gill that looks alot better than the something in my clip-art book.

Not sure why but *double post*

Hmm. Maybe I am dyslexic. I read that 'Waldie' as 'Wardle' the first time I looked at it.

Maybe I am dyslexic. I read that 'Waldie' as 'Wardle' the first time I looked at it.

Perhaps because you were reading it backwards? If you flip the image it is difficult to make the same mistake

oh! Thank You, John!

oh! Thank You, John!

Gee. Who would have thought it would come to this. Not me.

I was on a tight deadline today and was not able to comment.
However, it was great fun to see the other comments add up
when I was occasionally able to check in.

To those who have pointed towards some Zeds, thank you. I
will be sure not use your ideas

I wish

John,
That Gill bookplate is beautiful. If it is in your possession, please
carefully wrap it and send it to me immediately.

-sean michael

I like how rectangular courier's lower-case z is.

i don't think anybody here is looking for other's to do their work for them. they are looking for advice, inspiration, and education, which every single designer does by the way. be it when talking with their colleges, flipping through a magazine, or reading a book. i always believed this board was about the exchange of ideas which may eventually be put to use. but i guess design is a business, and a copetitive one at that and in this culture everything comes at a cost.

Everybody take a tranquilizer!

Anonymous, are we talking about Courier,
the typewriter-like font that is included
as a default face on pretty much every computer
ever made? The "z" you posted isn't a glyph
in that Courier, as far as I can find.

I must have mistakenly "stretched" the
character while I was playing in Photoshop...
hah! Anyway, I like how rectangular courier
looks when it's stretched like that. Sorry
for the confusion.